Pinsir Redux

SDShamshel

http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/127.shtml

Ah, Pinsir. Pinsir always had decent to great stats, with the ability to boost up the most important one (attack), but one thing always prevented it from shining: A lack of STAB.

Now in DP, though, it gets the Base 80 Scissor Cross. No problem, right?

But look, there's Heracross! Heracross basically matches Pinsir in the important stats, and has fighting STAB and guts to boot. Is Pinsir always going to be in Heracross's shadow? I think the answer is "some of the time," and that's because of Pinsir's new trait.

Unconventional. You've seen it on Rampardos, and unfortunately, back when the first Pinsir thread was made, we didn't really know what Unconventional did. However, we do now. Unconventional cancels out any trait that would prevent a move from working otherwise. Volt absorbers can be hit by electric attacks. Metagross can have its stats lowered.

On Pinsir, this basically translates to "I can totally maul Gengar and Weezing with Earthquake."

"But without Hyper Cutter, Pinsir is easy prey for Salamence and friends!"

That may be so, but I believe that unlike Heracross, who wants Guts more often than he wants Swarm, Pinsir can use both traits equally well, and each one is equally dangerous because Pinsir can play mind games with the opponent before they catch on. Not that Heracross doesn't have mind games, but they're not quite the same.

Pinsir comes out, and for one reason or another, you know it has Earthquake. What do you do next? Do you send in Salamence or Gyarados to try and intimidate it? What if it has Hyper Cutter? Do you send out Gengar or Weezing hoping it's not an Unconventional Pinsir so that you can use Will-O-Wisp? Do you send out a bulky water in the hopes that it can weather the attack?

I think this generation will be Pinsir's best yet. And to end this post, a moveset or two, though I think they're what everyone's thinking.

Trait: Unconventional
Scissor Cross
Earthquake
Stone Edge
In-Fight/Focus Punch
@Choice Band

Unconventional Earthquake can skew prediction in your favor, and Pinsir hits hard as hell already, so only the bulkiest of bulky pokemon can really switch in safely.

Trait: Hyper Cutter
Swords Dance
Scissor Cross
Stone Edge
In-Fight/Focus Punch
@Leftovers/Life Orb/Quick Claw/Whatever

The traditional Heracross, only with stronger attacks overall, which can only be a good thing. The success of this set relies on the success of the Unconventional version and vice versa.

So then, let the discussion truly begin.
 
No matter where Pinsir ends up, it's liable to be a very interesting choice. I'm glad it also got In Fight, and it finally boosts good Bug STAB. Stone Edge is there too. Unfortunately, Pinsir doesn't boast the awesomely broken Pursuit, but I don't think Pinsir would be able to use it as well as Heracross anyway.

Honestly, I tend to think of Hyper Cutter as Pinsir's trump card, especially with Gyarados and Salamence all over the place. A vanilla 383 attack Stone Edge does a ton of damage to Gyarados, and Pinsir's speed will probably let it outspeed it for the kill. Salamence will outspeed it but may not have enough defense to withstand the attack.

The main trouble with Pinsir is that Heracross counters make excellent Pinsir counters too, and any team worth anything has a Heracross counter.
 
I agree that Hyper Cutter is a very good trait, but my basic point is that the existence of both traits makes the other one better by virtue of the fact that they're both good traits and cover different sets of Pokemon.
 
I'm inspired by Pinser (I believe it was one of the first Pokemon to appear oin the anime ^_^), and I agree with you that Unconventional can be a mild shocker for Gyarados, Salamence, Gengar, and other fragile switch-ins, who(m?) are viable only because they resist the majority of Pinser's moves. Surprise is especially in this generation, where it is difficult to rebound once you fumble; I'd definitely be discouraged if I had switched a Gyarados into Pinser, thinking that I had made a good decision, only to have seen Intimidate fail and get slammed by a Stone Edge.

Unfortunatly, Heracross has so many advantages over Pinser, some obvious, some subtle. Megahorn has a whooping 1.5 base power more than Scissor Cross; that's like STAB! Without Fighting type, Pinser has difficulty switching in (less resistances, more weaknesses) and no STAB from In Fight. I'm disappointed that Pinser has had so few improvments compared to Heracross; no Blade Test? Pursuit?

Having said that, I'm also glad that Heracross is noticeably better than Pincer. Hopefully, it can shine in an environment better suited for it. I'm breeding one right now, and I'm going with the generic CB set you have postedabove, with Quick Attack over EQ; nothing too fancy until competitor is released. :)
 
Its true that Pinsir is unexpected, but like Misty pointed out earlier, any heracross counter is a pinsir counter and hera counters will be on every team, so his unexpectedness is wasted. :[

It seems like GF hates Pinsir. Why doesn't this thing have Megahorn? It defies all logic.
 
You're right, it doesn't have a horn, it has two fucking big-ass giant horns that are quite mega. Oh well, at least you don't have to worry about scissor cross missing.

What do y'all think about Choice Scarf Pinsir? He's got a decent attack but he's a tad slow. This could be really unexpected. Pinsir can outspeed even Timid Zam with the scarf on and gives him the business with scissor cross while zam thinks that he is faster.

Adamant max speed CS pinsir = 403 speed
Jolly max speed CS pinsir = 442 speed
 
Choice Scarf isn't a bad idea. Hyper Cutter and Stone Edge screw any Salamence and Gyarados who think about coming in.
 
ABSOLute said:
You're right, it doesn't have a horn, it has two fucking big-ass giant horns that are quite mega. Oh well, at least you don't have to worry about scissor cross missing.
Click to expand...

Those are (duh) pincers. You wouldn't say that Kingler has a pair of horns on each hand would you?

Any case, back on topic, I think it's obvious that Heracross basically has the advantage as we perceive the metagame to be.

I think, however, that Pinsir will be an excellent example of a BL Pokemon that you may see every so often in OU, due to the subtle differences between the two, and if you don't want to compound certain specific weaknesses.
 
I think a Hyper Cutter CBer would be fun.

Pinsir @ Choice Band
Nature: Adamant (+Atk -SAtk)
Trait: Hyper Cutter / Unconventional
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
-Scissor Cross
-Stone Edge
-In Fight
-Earthquake

Hyper Cutter helps with Gyarados / Salamence switch-ins, whereas Unconventional just says, "NO," to Weezing / Gengar / Bronzong. The other levitators are hit harder by Scissor Cross for the most part (Flygon / Claydol / Uxie / Mesprit / Azelf / Cresselia, yeah). I think Hyper Cutter's Pinsir's ticket to being useful unless Weezing becomes popular.
 
Why bother? Heracross does that set so much better. ;[

The other advantage to Pinsir is that Dugtrio has a much harder time revenge killing it, but I haven't seen many Dugtrio lately...
 
Because Pinsir can still OHKO Salamence and Gyarados with Stone Edge after Intimidate when using Hyper Cutter? Other than that I see no reason to CB with Pinsir. It's just a damn shame that Unconventional doesn't cancel every ability, I would have loved to cancel Heracross' Guts ability with Unconventional.
 
CBHera does plenty of damage to Gyarados and Salamence with SE even after Intimidate... Unless it's a bulky version, in which case Hera will outspeed them. So yeah, not really an "advantage" per se.
 
Misty said:
CBHera does plenty of damage to Gyarados and Salamence with SE even after Intimidate... Unless it's a bulky version, in which case Hera will outspeed them. So yeah, not really an "advantage" per se.
Click to expand...

Pinsir and Heracross have the exact same attack and speed, so while CBCross will do sufficient damage to Gyarados and Salamence, Pinsir will still do more damage provided it has Hyper Cutter. Anything about outspeeding bulkies or whatever is irrelevant because they're both equally fast and both don't get STAB on Stone Edge. The important thing would be if Heracross's fighting or bug moves would be sufficient to dent them while CB'd.

If Heracross manages to stack the guts boost on top, it basically neutralizes the intimidate, but that's still somewhat situational.
 
Aw, come on. Can't use their naming as a reason they're pinsirs. Is Mightyena a Hyena? Does Octillery have eight limbs?

Okay, yeah, maybe they're pinsirs. Mandibles would suggest he has a mouth on top of his head.
 
Quick question: if Unconventional cancels out the opponent's ability, wouldn't Intimidate stop from working as well, making Hyper Cutter quite useless?
 
Some things that may be worth mentioning, but I am not sure exactly how they may play out...

1) Pinsir is weak to Stealth Rock as it has a rock Weakness, Heracross only takes normal damage from Stealth Rock so thats a plus for Heracross

2) Pinsir's Defense Base is 100 wheras Heracross is 85(?) of course the base HP of Heracross is higher so the question is how does that come into play?

3) Along the lines of point 2, Heracross is 4x weak to anything flying whereas pinsir is only 2x weak, i do wonder if Pinsir survives some random Aerial Aces and the like that Heracross would not, this could prove to be THE selling point of pinsir if it can survive some things that Cross can not.

4) A Speedy Psychic of any kind, tends to send Heracross running away since it is weak to Psychic attacks itself. Pinsir has no such problems with Psychics (for the most part)

I Just wonder how these few points might play into whether or not you choose to use Pinsir. Of course for me this is all moot cause I usually use Armaldo anyway :-p
 
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