Tournaments RBYPL IV - Format Discussion

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emma

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Host Team: emma, TBD, TBD
Tournaments Rules and General Guidelines
RBYPL IV Commencement Thread (coming soon!)
Spreadsheet (coming soon!)

Schedule Sheet (coming soon!)
How does RBYPL work?

There will be 6 or 8 teams, each with their own manager and assistant manager. Management duos will do a Snake Draft on Pokemon Showdown!, where they will take turns nominating and bidding in an auction for players who signed up to assemble their teams with limited credits available. The teams will then play one another for 5 or 7 weeks, with a new opponent each week. This will culminate with a Playoffs week consisting of the Top 3 or 4 teams overall from the regular season season.

How does one signup as a player?

Player signups are projected to begin Sunday, September 17th and will be open until 24 hours before the auction (see below). You should include your name, timezone, metagames you are willing to play, and any expected inactivity. Do not sign up if you cannot commit to the entire tournament. RBYPL IV is expected to run from the beginning of October to the end of November.

How does one apply to be a manager / assistant manager?

Manager signups are projected to begin Sunday, September 3rd and will be open until Saturday, Sunday 16th at 11:59 PM GMT-4. The RBYPL hosting team (myself and likely 1-2 other people) will pick managers.

If I am selected as a captain, can I still play for my team?

Yes, managers and assistant managers will (likely) be given the option to draft themselves for a set price of 15k credits. You do not have to buy yourself if you don't want to.

When is the RBYPL Auction?

The auction date will occur during September 29th / September 30th / October 1st, when at least one representative of each team will be available.

When does RBY PL Week 1 start?

Monday October 2nd.
The General Manager of a team is essentially the boss of a team. The GM is the final word in all decisions (barring the hosts) regarding their team. The GM decides which players play on the team, who plays in what slot, and even handles the team finances. Managers also make sure that the team keeps running on a day to day basis. If a team fails to complete their matches by the end of the allotted time, the onus is on the manager to inform the hosts as to what happened in order to make sure that proper activity calls are made.

Because of these responsibilities, The General Manager is probably the most important part of the team. As such, the position of GM is not one to be taken lightly.

• General Managers are chosen largely on a subjective opinion of the hosts as well as RBY Moderation Team as to who they believe would be fit for the position. Being fit for the position includes the knowledge of players in the community (for fielding a competent team), having above average activity on the forums, Pokémon Showdown and/or Discord (in order to ensure that you don’t abandon your team), as well as possessing a necessary amount of “gravitas” (If you can’t make a player do what you tell them to, such as play an undesirable metagame, you’re not going to make a good manager).

General Managers are required to acquire one Assistant Manager. The General Manager gets full sovereignty in choosing their assistant manager. The assistant manager is essentially the second in command for the team. They have all of the functions and roles as the General Manager does, the GM just trumps them in head-to-head decisions.

Lastly, the General Manager has the following duties:

• They shall choose one Assistant Manager.
• They shall make the hosts aware of any player retentions by the time player signups close.
• They shall be present at the live auction, or appoint someone (the Assistant Manager) to participate in the live auction in their stead.
• They shall send the hosts weekly rosters.
• They shall ensure to the best of their abilities that their battlers complete their matches on time.
• In the event that a match fails to be completed, they shall inform the hosts as to why the match failed to be completed, and what their battler did in order to finish the match.
• They shall communicate any grievances with the hosts.
Total money for teams is the minimum number of players x 10,000 credits.

In the weeks preceding the Live Auction, a time will be chosen where at least 1 Manager or Assistant Manager from each team can meet and perform a live auction in order to choose players. The Manager and/or Assistant Manager present will be expected to remain at the auction for the entire duration, which should take approximately 1-2 hours.

Once a time is set, all attending Managers + Hosts will enter the place where the auction will be held - most likely a group chat for the auction. Spectators are allowed to join in to watch the auction, but will not be able to speak. Discussion on the bidding should be relegated to the RBY Discord.

The hosts will first ask a team to nominate a player. The order by which teams will nominate players will go in a randomized snaking pattern from the first chosen team to the last chosen team, then the last chosen team to the first chosen team. Details of said player will be displayed and bidding will commence, starting at 3000 credits, with the nominating team automatically placing the first bid. The auction will then be in real time. Managers will simply put in their bids in the chat, raising a minimum of 500 credits. If after 15 seconds there are no new bids, the player is sold to the highest bid in the channel. Updated credit totals will be displayed and then the next manager in the rotation will be prompted to nominate a player.

Managers: it is necessary for you to field a roster of 6 to 8 starters and a minimum of (likely) 2 substitutes. Playing Managers and Assistant Managers are included in the roster number.

There is no midseason this year. Therefore, it is highly recommended that all teams spend all of their credits in the auction, as there is no use for them afterwards.
It is at this time that the tournament will commence. The league stages consist of a Round Robin tournament. Every team will face every other team once through the regular season. Each manager will submit to the hosts a roster no later than the deadline of the previous week. This roster will list the starting players and what metagames they will play.

When the week starts, teams' players will face off in their respective metagames / tiers. The RBY OU 1 from Team A will face the RBY OU 1 from team B, RBY OU 2 will face RBY OU 2, and so on. Whichever team wins the most battles will be declared the victor for the week. Rather than score based on how many individual battles a team wins, the primary thing that matters is who beat the most teams. As such, points are awarded based only on wins and losses versus teams as a whole, not individual players. Beating a team in a week’s matchups is worth two points, tying with a team is worth one point, and losing is worth none, simple as that. At the end of the round robin, the top three or four teams in the points proceed to the playoffs.

There are a few regulatory things during the league stages that need to be outlined.

1. Substitutes – At any point in time during the week, a team may make a substitution for a currently slotted player. In order to do this a manager must post in the thread, tagging the hosts, the opposing managers and the opposing player stating which player is substituting out, and which player is substituting in. A player that has substituted out for a week cannot be substituted back in. In addition, in order to catch any attempts at garnering favorable matchups in RBY OU (where the lineup you choose affects pairings), all substitutions are subject to veto by the hosts if the substitution is suspected to be attempting to “game” the system.

2. There will be no trades allowed at any point during RBYPL.

3. Activity decisions – There are inevitably times where two players simply fail to complete a match; however, the nature of the tournament system sometimes makes it advantageous to purposely fail to play (such as when a team is up 3-2 in a week). Because of this, it is necessary to make activity decisions on matches. Hosts are required to make thorough investigations regarding each and every potential failed match during a week. If both parties are deemed to be equally apathetic or enthusiastic about getting the match done, but just have not had the opportunity to make it happen, the match will result in a no contest. However, if it is deemed that one party made significantly more effort than the other in attempting to get the match done, then a win will be awarded to that player. Things that will make it very likely that you will lose via activity include: failing to VM your opponent immediately upon the week’s start, scheduling a match and being documented as missing the match time, failing to provide any concrete times for which you can be reached, failing to respond to an opponent’s VM at all. Note that this is a tournament that requires a very high level of activity and diligence, if you don’t think you can get your matches done, quite simply don’t sign up.

4. Rule Breaking – There is no excuse for breaking any of the predetermined rules. If you are caught breaking a rule, you will lose your match. There is no lenience with regards to this. Break a rule, you lose. Period.

5. Reversing Rulings - No ruling will be retroactively overturned once the week following the week that the ruling has been made has ended. This includes: activity rulings / rulings based on rule breaking / anything else under the sun. I'm not going back in time to reevaluate every single decision I've made throughout the tournament on Week 9 because you think you were robbed of 1-2 wins along the way and now they're the difference between you and a playoff spot. Any appeals to a ruling must be made during the week that the ruling is made; beyond that, all rulings are final once the week ends.
Sunday August 20th - Format Discussion Thread
Sunday September 3rd - Manager Signups
Sunday September 17th - Player Signups
September 29th / September 30th / October 1st - Live Auction
Monday October 2nd - Week 1
In this thread, feel free to discuss anything regarding RBYPL before it begins. This is meant to be a place for players to voice their opinions and help us decide some key things regarding RBYPL. The major point of discussion is the Format. Retains and Manager pricing will likely be unchanged from last year, but feel free to discuss that as well.

1. Format
  • Last year's format was 6 teams with 6 slots. We are looking to expand the tournament to either 8 teams or 8 slots, with this likely being deciding during Manager and Player signups respectively.
  • Last year's format was 3x RBY OU / 1x RBY UU / 1x RBY NU / 1x RBY Ubers. We will be doing a minimum 50% RBY OU slots. If we expand to 8 slots, the 7th tier will be RBY OU and the 8th tier will likely be RBY OU or RBY PU. Lower Tiers will not receive more than one slot.​
  • Tier Rotation or Tier Pick is an option. As an example with 8 slots - 5x RBY OU / 3x rotating RBY UU, RBY NU, RBY PU, RBY Ubers. This would ensure tier representation across the board, while also catering the fact that we expect the player signups to increase with people who primarily want to play RBY OU. Details will be flushed out if there is support for this idea.​
 
My plan:

Aim for 8 teams. Increasing the regular season to seven weeks & not having to deal with the suboptimal playoff situation with six teams are great changes. 8 teams likely means 6 slots, but decide this, as well as what the 8th slot would be, if necessary, during Player Signups. Allowing both managers to self-buy (at likely an increased price) should be considered with 8 teams to encourage more people to manage.

If there are not 8 solid manager pairs, settle for 6 teams and aim for 8 slots. Decide this and what the 8th slot would be, if necessary, during Player Signups. If we settle for 6 teams, 4 teams making playoffs should be considered. The bye week for the #1 seed is quite suboptimal, and I'd prefer more games to be played overall.

My 8th slot preference is RBY OU - the vast amount of additional signups we would receive this year would be interested in playing RBY OU (see RBYWC signups and interest in RBY Invitational).
 
Thanks for making this thread emma!

I think in an ideal world we would be able to get 8 teams and 8 slots but realistically I'm not so sure we can manage that. Assuming we do 8 slots that's at least 32 OU players every week which is a lot to ask. Add on 32 low tier slots (of which there's a lot of player overlap) if you split 4OU/4 Low Tiers and I feel like 6x8 or 8x6 is probably what we're going to have to settle with. I could be wrong though!

That said, my preference is 8 teams for the reasons that emma mentioned. The playoff situation was six teams isn't ideal with the bye week for the number one seed (I've had discussions about this with a few people and I think that sentiment is generally agreed on) so hopefully we can get enough managers for 8 teams. I like the idea of allowing both managers to self-buy as well as a way to get more people signing up to manage.

As for slots, this is a tough one. In years past, we've been able to do 3OU, 1 Ubers, 1 UU, 1 NU and have it be all good. Now we have PU in the mix, which is a tier people generally really like so it seems like one of them would have to be the odd one out. That said, I like the idea of tier rotation in order to get all low tiers representation. I like this better than tier pick because even though we're trying out UU with sleep again this RBYPL, I still feel like no one would pick UU and I would hate to see something that's been historically relevant become irrelevant in RBYPL. But yeah, as mentioned before there's a lot of overlap between people who play lower tiers, especially now thanks to Low Tier Circuit. So I think rotation could work for sure. In the case of 6 teams 8 slots though I feel like we could do the even split between OU and low tiers, with each low tier getting a slot. Could be wishful thinking but I think it's worth a try.

Here's my preferences in each scenario:

8 teams, 6 slots:
3x OU
3x Low Tier Rotation (Ubers, UU, NU, PU)

6 teams, 8 slots:
4x OU
1x Ubers
1x UU
1x NU
1x PU
 
I would love to see 8 slots, 4 OU 1 PU. If that’s not feasible for some reason then 8 teams is the next best thing to me. I’d like to get to a point where we can do 8 slots 8 teams but we are probably not there quite yet.
 
Since the RBY Playerbase has expanded recently in both size and skill (i can name at least 3 decent RBY players off the top of my head who weren't around during RBYPL last year) I think it would be nice to have more slots so more people can participate. My first choice would be 8 slots, 4 OU then 1 for Ubers, UU, NU, PU, and 6 teams (dont think we have the playerbase for 8). PU has developed a ton the past year; analyses are almost complete and the meta is pretty stable, so I don't see a reason to exclude it especially when the joke of a tier that is UU is still there.
 
PU isnt some tier in infancy anymore, it has just as much if not more strategy involved than other of the lower tiers, it'd be ridiculous to not include it to be honest
 
I'm going to post my thoughts but keep in mind they come with the caveat that I have only returned 2 months ago so I still do not have a full grasp on the playerbase.

In my opinion, I think 6 teams of 8 players is better than 8 teams of 6 players, because the tournament lasts less time for (more or less) the same amount of games. It also allows for more lower tier representation, which is fundamentally the main selling point of RBYPL (OU gets represented in other tournaments like RoAPL and SPL). While I understand the argument that giving 1st place of round robin a bye is by no means ideal, I do think that the aforementioned pros outweigh that con. One other solution is to make it so that only the first and second place go to finals instead of having a pseudo-semi final.

That said, if we believe the playerbase is growing as much as we do (I definitely see many more new faces this year than in my previous yearly returns), we could try to be ambitious and push for 8x8. We had 126 signups last year, and if we have more signups this year, I can see 8x8 being feasible. My major concern when it comes to this is more if we have the lower tier players for 4x8 (I really, really think we should have all of Ubers, UU, NU and PU represented), but I asked around and my sources do tell me it's feasible so honestly, if we're gonna do 8 teams, might as well be ambitious and go for 8x8 imo. I am naturally assuming we can find 8 manager duos, but if that's not the case then we are pretty much settled on 6 teams of 8 anyway.

I'm also a fan of Kaz's ghosting slot idea, and if for some reason we end up with 5 OU slots, I really think we should go with it for the 5th. I think that would give the opportunity for 6/8 players that are talented/eager to learn the tier to understand how the more established players think their games and thus grow as players.

I don't like the rotation idea at all. It will make things awkward when it comes to drafting and for the players playing the lower tiers.

So to sum it up, imo either we go 6 teams of 8 or 8 teams of 8, and in both situations we definitely go with all the 4 non OU tiers.
 
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We discussed this in the discord extensively so I’ll keep it short. I think a Ghosting Slot is a demonstrably bad idea for the competitiveness of a Premier League Team Tour.

It changes the way you draft and removes value of one of the slots creating too much variance, if you sign up to only play ghosting it lowers your value as well and just makes everything too messy to have in RBYPL.

Additionally it’s logistically difficult depending on the time zones of your team to schedule around one persons match. It’s a lot easier to just have 2 players schedule vs 10-12.
 
I'm going to weigh in because I plan to play in this tournament again this year.

I prefer eight slots to eight teams. The longer season is arguably more competitive, but I think seven weeks + playoffs just drags on for so long that it becomes unfun to participate, at least for me. The bigger teams also tend to be more fun than more teams (also I think eight slots + eight teams could definitely be doable though, as a sidenote, but I digress). As far as those eight slots go, I think the already popular lineup is the obvious choice, that being:
4× OU
1× Ubers
1× UU
1× NU
1× PU
I would genuinely like to see Tradebacks (or I suppose Stadium) occupy one of those four OU slots instead. Four slots is a lot and I think there would be enough interest to replace one of them, especially with a similar tier. However, I highly doubt that will ever see fruition and I wouldn't be playing either tier if they did make it, so I won't advocate for them too actively.

The rotating tier idea is, to be frank, just awful. Unless my very quick math is off, the final representation of the lower tiers will be uneven, which is just unfair. Even if every tier is played the same number of times though, this still makes certain tiers more or less valuable depending on whether they appear in the playoffs or late in the season after teams face mathematical elimination. It also makes signing up unintuitive/inconsistent because some players will sign up knowing that they will definitely not play on certain random weeks. And all the low tiers deserve equal respect. They aren't perfect, but they are developing and played widely enough. PU in particular deserves to debut this year in full glory.

I don't like the ghosting slot idea at all either. It changes the dynamic of the draft and defies the spirit of this type of tour in my opinion. There are also a lot of little things that make that sort of idea prohibitive to certain players like time zones, language barriers, and level of comfort with sharing one's voice. Seems troublesome.

Also, while I'm here:
5. Reversing Rulings - No ruling will be retroactively overturned once the week following the week that the ruling has been made has ended. This includes: activity rulings / rulings based on rule breaking / anything else under the sun. I'm not going back in time to reevaluate every single decision I've made throughout the tournament on Week 9 because you think you were gypped 1-2 wins along the way and now they're the difference between you and a playoff spot. Any appeals to a ruling must be made during the week that the ruling is made; beyond that, all rulings are final once the week ends.
This is just a bad policy. Last RBYPL I ran into a ruling that was made after the week ended, making it literally impossible to challenge. There should be at least a day or two grace period or something for rulings made at the very end of a week or after the week concludes.

edit: I forgot to mention that I am also okay with taking the top four teams for playoffs even in a six-team system.
 
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I like the point Sceptross made about 6 teams of 8 keeping the tournament short & sweet. I'm not sure of people's opinions on the tier, nor do I have one seeing how I did not really participate in this year's Slam, but maybe 1x Tradebacks in place of the 4th OU slot? I don't have any real experience in PU, and I dislike UU & NU fwiw. Whether there are 24 viable starters for OU is something I don't know, but if not, and people don't dislike Tradebacks all that much, it could be cool to have. Ghosting slot is a no from me.
 
Seconding adding Tradebacks. It has the potential to be a perfectly competitive tier, it's just never been given the chance. Totally biased btw
 
I’m going to throw a super interesting suggestion out here that i wont expect to gain much traction, but i think it would be really cool.

RBY OU pre para slam

hear me out.
During dpppl they ran DPP ou 2009. I had a strong interest towards watching these sets despite not being a DPP player. I ended up watching every set just off of curiosity. I think this could be a good way to build more interest to outsiders And would possibly draw in some players that might not play otherwise.

I must also say that 4x ou seems good with how well ou has been doing and how many capable players deserve a slot
 
I’m going to throw a super interesting suggestion out here that i wont expect to gain much traction, but i think it would be really cool.

RBY OU pre para slam

hear me out.
During dpppl they ran DPP ou 2009. I had a strong interest towards watching these sets despite not being a DPP player. I ended up watching every set just off of curiosity. I think this could be a good way to build more interest to outsiders And would possibly draw in some players that might not play otherwise.

I must also say that 4x ou seems good with how well ou has been doing and how many capable players deserve a slot
Wouldnt that basically be an OM (an OM that patches out a vital aspect of the game) included in PL?
 
I know this is unlikely to get picked but please add RBY randoms it’s one of my favorite metas and the most popular RBY meta on showdown. It actually takes a lot of skill, a lot of prediction mind games and thinking about how valuable each Pokémon is on your team and how to use them most effectively. There are a lot of skilled RBY randoms players that don’t play other tiers, so there’s no worrying about not being to fill out the slots. You could make it bo7 for randoms to try to control the rng element, this format is already used in the rby randoms discord.

The main complaint people might have with randoms is that there’s no team building which reduces the skill, but in some of the tiers that are currently getting selected like NU and PU people will mostly spam the same 4-5 mons every game anyway. I got top 4 in the last RBY PU tour and have played a lot of randoms and I just think randoms takes more skill, no offense to PU.
 
RBY randoms is a very very strong community and I think it would enhance the tournament. I would not mind x3 OU x1 Ubers-PU x1 Bo3 or Bo5 rands. It's unusual for a PL but the community is there - gen1rands is both bigger than most other oldgen rands, and bigger than most if not all RBY lowtiers.
If rands isn't in, 4th OU and call it a day. tradebacks/stadium are pretty unserious/nonexistent communities

8 slots seems like an easy call. 6 teams also seems like an easy call.
Proposal C from this thread I just made? Pretty please? There's no reason for 6-team PLs to suck as much as they do, just put in a bit of effort to fix the format.

edit: oh and consider making one of the OU slots Bo5? i think it'd be fun
 
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RBY randoms is a very very strong community and I think it would enhance the tournament. I would not mind x3 OU x1 Ubers-PU x1 Bo3 or Bo5 rands. It's unusual for a PL but the community is there - gen1rands is both bigger than most other oldgen rands, and bigger than most if not all RBY lowtiers.
If rands isn't in, 4th OU and call it a day. tradebacks/stadium are pretty unserious/nonexistent communities

8 slots seems like an easy call. 6 teams also seems like an easy call.
Proposal C from this thread I just made? Pretty please? There's no reason for 6-team PLs to suck as much as they do, just put in a bit of effort to fix the format.

edit: oh and consider making one of the OU slots Bo5? i think it'd be fun

I am very much a fan of Amaranth 's Proposal C in that thread and while personally I would prefer a 7 week tournament to a 9 week tournament because of burnout, the format is just so much better that I'd love to try it out. I see no downsides for it, unless others prefer a shorter tournament too, but I don't think that will be the case since 9 weeks is pretty standard.

I wouldn't be opposed to making an OU slot bo5. I think these unofficial PLs are great for experimenting with different things, so I'm all in on trying unusual or weird stuff.

I'd love to include randbats too but I struggle to see where it fits - with so many new OUers I think we would really benefit from the 4 OU slots and as I mentioned before I think we should definitely include all 4 lower tiers. Since the randbats community is big and has many players that wouldn't join the tournament otherwise, maybe we can do 2x randbats 4x OU 4x lower tiers? Unless we find something better to do with the 10th slot.
 
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Tradebacks & Stadium - No, as Amaranth said neither have serious enough communities or participation to warrant a slot

Ghosting Slot - No, this format will eventually get its own tournament but it's not fit for a PL

RBY OU 2014 - No, this was a simple two unbans for DPP and I assume this had some interest/discussion beforehand while RBY would require a mod that I'm not even sure is possible and there is minimal interest

Bo5 RBY OU - Unlikely, Bo3 of the same generation (when the standard is Bo1) in PLs is historically unliked but if lots of people are willing to play then sure. This can be something we determine during player signups.

----------------------

PU & Random Battles are the only two tiers that could make their PL debut this year - I'd like to include both but am not really interested in going <50% OU slots. The only exception would be if we do 10 slots - I'd be okay with 4 OU there - but what makes up the 10th slot? Can we do 10 slots? 5th OU? 2nd Random Battles?

Proposals from this thread are on the table - this would allow us to run 6 teams 8 slots which includes PU/Random Battles but don't suffer the usual consequences of 6 team tournaments

----------------------

Updated plan:

6 teams (with a new format described in the above thread) + 8-10 slots of OU/Ubers/UU/NU/PU/Random Battles depending on signups.
 
I’m much more comfortable going with 6 teams if we use something like Proposal C from the other thread. I think it pretty much solves all the problems here so shoutout to the Belgians for figuring it out lol.

In that case I think it’s a no brainer to go 4xOU, 1x Ubers, UU, NU, PU for 8 of the slots. If we can expand to 10 slots though I say go for it, and make the next two slots OU and Randbats, for a final lineup of

OU
OU
OU
OU
OU
Ubers
UU
NU
PU
Randbats (Bo5)

Based off RBYWC we should be able to get 30 OU players for sure. Low tiers… yes there’s overlap here but I think 24 slots can be filled with skilled players. Randbats easily gets 6 top tier players, might even be the most competitive slot actually. I think this is the ideal.
 
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If we are locking in 6 teams (rip 8x8), then imo we should do Amaranth's Proposal C with 5x OU, 4x other tiers and 1x randbats.

Good tour format, keeps the nice 50/50 balance going on, 30 OU players is perfectly doable, 6x for each lower tier sounds doable too judging from the discussion on the Discord server, and 10 players allows us to fit both randbats and PU, two tiers that, from what I know of them, will increase the quality of the tournament as a whole (I have no PU playing experience but judging from the Slam replays it has a lot of potential).

To answer you emma on bo5, personally I'm okay with it. Did a lot of it on PP and personally I'd be willing to be the "bo5er" in the team and would sign up as such if it becomes a thing.
 
Personally, I think 6 teams 10 slots is ideal. 4x OU, 1x Bo5 OU, 1x Ubers/UU/NU/PU, 1x Random Battles. Satisfies everyone and I think there's the playerbase for it. Bo5 OU could also be something like Tradebacks or Stadium but I personally like Bo5 more so yeah.

If 10 slots isn't an option, then I'd like to see 6 teams 8 slots with 4x OU and 1x PU.
 
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Please do the Amaranth Formula C Belgian format for 6 teams, I do plan on playing in this RBY PL but more importantly I want to see how this new format plays out to potentially use it for future 6 team tours. As most other people stated the best outline of tiers is either 4x OU and Ubers/UU/NU/PU, or if there’s 10 tiers add a 5th OU and Rands. I’ve been playing a lot more OU lately and I think it’s a fun tier and there’s plenty of people that can play it for 5 slots per team. You may even unleash some hidden gems of players that break out big time.
 
I think with 8 slots its largely possible that we have the playerbase for 8 teams, in which case i would prefer 8x8 over 6x8
 
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