Redefining Moves

[quziel]

Defining moves is a relatively recent addition to the CAP process, being only really adopted in mid generation 8. I think its generally been helpful in letting us sorta "poll jump" specific moves, and create more informed stat spreads. However, its also been treated as a way to preempt the movepool stage in many ways, with several decidedly non-competitive moves being suggested each time around. This has led to criticism that its sorta pointless as a stage, and I absolutely agree, as we aren't really committing to any moves during it, and it results in a lot of spreads listing 10 defining moves. A defining move should define a spread, explain why a number is there, or explain why timmy's spread is 30 BST higher than your's. For 32 I feel that the only really defining moves were Boomburst and Torch Song, all others were imo just dressing, and could have just been brought up during the moveset submission stage.

I have a few solutions to this.

1) Create a list of assumed STAB moves
While this is fairly self-explanatory, there's no reason for us to be spending literally any time on stuff like Fire Blast on any Fire-type, Surf on any Water-type, or Hex on any Ghost-type. This is something we already spend very little time on, but having a relatively solid list of assumed high power options for every typing would benefit the process as a whole.

very optional:
2) Create a list of assumed utility moves
This one is going to be a lot more contentious, but given the recent defining moves stages, there's a bit of desire to use some weaker utility moves, eg Taunt, 50% Recovery, or Stealth Rock to explain the direction a set is pointed in. We could create a list of "free" utiltiy moves, for folks to explain why their set is structured as it is, however there's also an argument for just handling these moves during the moveset stage.

3) Constrain Defining Moves far more harshly than we have before
This one goes with the above, but its my view that Defining Moves really should not be a long list for any project. Realistically unless a move is going to cause a user to have their BSR 5 points below everyone else's, or something else on that level, it likely should just be a free space. Its my view that folks should probably be able to discuss most moves on their stat submission without much worry. Defining Moves really should be those that well, define a spread. Frankly I would also argue that a lot of weaker moves don't realistically change a spread's overall strength, and are just part of the description of the spread.

 

[kenn]

I was talking to quziel about this a bit yesterday before I hopped off but I feel like the 1st option is definitively our best route in the future. Having a list of assumed STAB moves allows us the freedom to have varying degrees of stat spread submissions while also having a guideline that isn't just a "wishlist" of what that spread would want for moves.

Using CAP 32 as an example, obviously using Boomburst with Pixilate is going to warrant a smaller Special Attack stat for a spread over Hyper Voice due to the sheer power that Boomburst provides. Obviously, a 140 BP (168 BP with Pixilate/before STAB) is gonna be extremely strong compared to a 90 BP (99 BP with Pixilate/before STAB) move. Therefore, a spread with 127 Special Attack, for CAP 32 as the example (s/o Scizivire lol), could be considered just right for a CAP with Hyper Voice but that is too high for a spread utilizing Boomburst as the main "focus" for the STAB move of choice. Same with something like Torch Song vs. Flamethrower as the former gives CAP 32 a +1, which can mess with checks and stuff and therefore requires a reflection in the stat spread submission to still be checked by its hard checks/counters at +1, while Flamethrower is just a "generic" STAB move and has no real effect on a stat spread being submitted.

To comment on the 2nd option, I think generally most utility moves don't affect stat spread submissions too much so having some "free" to discuss may be worth it as options as to why your bulk isn't as good as Timmy's because you decided to opt for 50% recovery while Timmy didn't. I also think they should be explicitly described as reasoning, specifically justifying bulk or Speed or whatever other stat the submitter may choose, and not "hopes/wishes" as to what that stat spread wants because that can be determined in the moveset stage.

Overall, I think if we make the defining moves a little more "laser focused" they can yield incredible results and allow for a multitude of unique stat spread submissions to be not only developed, but even acknowledged and appreciated.

 

[Brambane]

There is definitely a list to be made for each typing of "competitive relevant STAB options without significant secondary effect." Basically moves defined by being the textbook "good STABs" with marginal if any additional utility. Some of them could have unique effects, like Hex, but the move itself is really just "situational strong STAB" which isn't super significant.

Good example is Flamethrower vs Lava Plume vs Overheat vs Mystical Fire. Flamethrower obviously is the baseline STAB for pretty much every Fire-type, whereas Lava Plume does have an extra utility; the move's effective is defined by its higher burn chance as oppose to its power. Overheat is a high-power option with a defininf secondary effect that is certainly significant. However, the effect is deleterious for the user and the move itself establishes a good ceiling for the expected damage output of the typing. Mystical Fire is relatively weak and is entirely used for its secondary effect or in the absence of better Fire-type moves.

So in the above case, Flamethrower and Overheat would make the list, but Lava Plume and Mystical Fire would not. If Fire wins a type poll, Flamethrower and Overheat will be assumed.

I agree with constraining defining moves to only the ones either:
1) Fundamental to the concept
2) Impactful to stats submissions

Basically these are the moves you have to include for concept fulfillment, and any move that was determined early on that is going to influence your afforded power during the stats stage. I also think this should be an continuously revised list during the entire process. Basically instead of locking the thread before the next stage, keep it open so people could continuously suggest why a move should or shouldn't be removed from the defining move list. More work for the stage leader, but if that sounds irksome then you probably shouldn't lead the stage. This would address a lot of my woes with the CAP process (CAP32 in particular), which is mostly that it can feel very difficult to discuss or adjust previous stages as the identity of the Pokemon changes and our perception/knowledge of what we are designing also changes. I don't think you can leave every stage open for continuous discussion without annoying a lot of artists and/or potentially getting caught in a spiral of changes, but if any stage is worth and easy to keep open until the project's end, its defining moves.

 

[shnowshner]

Hello, we're late replying (it's time to start getting these PRCs through now that CAP 32 is slowing down).

So, as moves leader, I have first-hand experience I want to share. I definitely did not do an amazing job at conveying or really understanding the purpose of the stage: quziel explained to me sometime during stats/movesets that Defining Moves is meant to help users justify aspects of their stat spread. I hadn't really approached the stage with this as the goal, but I do feel this results just from how everything is set up.

Implied STABs solves a lot of the ambiguity and clutter that Defining Moves carries with it. As it stands, we want Defining Moves to be less of a "build your spread to accommodate these," and more along the lines of "okay, here are moves that you include to justify why aspects of your spread may be suboptimal, or simply arranged in an unconventional way." Ideally, our list should be like, around 3-6 moves long give or take?

I also find that "Defining" doesn't do a good job of conveying what this list is supposed to do. When you understand the concept, yes, Defining Moves works, as they are the moves that "define" the specifics of your spread. But I, and likely many others, seemed to have gravitated more towards Defining as in "strong or necessary moves we'd want to have on our set." These are two different concepts entirely, as the former is more geared towards specific powerful options like status, recovery, boosting, and strong coverage: moves that not everyone may agree on, especially when considering the variety of stat spreads we get. The latter, meanwhile, includes moves that are less strong options, but more so obvious moves for what it's trying to accomplish. In general, I mean STAB attacks here. You wouldn't make a Ground/Water type and then say, "yeah, we should figure out if this gets Earthquake/Earth Power and Surf/Waterfall." Legit, when that typing was locked in, hell probably first submitted, you already had it using these moves in mind unless we're making some hyper defensive Pokemon packing Recovery/Seismic Toss/Toxic/Hazards.

All this to say, I'd see it beneficial to rebrand Defining Moves to something that better describes why we're compiling them together. Not exactly sure what the best word for this is, but words like "regulating," "justifying," "informing," and "clarifying" have their meaning a bit closer to the target than "defining" does.

Back to the whole idea of Implied STABs/Moves, something we absolutely need to work out is, well, what moves are Implied? Just throwing ideas out,

1. We could make a list of Implied moves here, and bring them out as needed for a Project, based on things such as typing, role, idk ""concept relevancy?"" The easiest ones would be STABs for sure, there's no reason to think otherwise about granting an Ice type access to Ice Beam, Blizzard, Ice Spinner, Ice Punch, what have you.
2. We could make the list as we go about the project, perhaps with an initial set of moves like your Flamethrowers or Thunderbolts, and add to it over time as things continue to shape up (along the lines of what Brambane suggested).

Overall I find splitting up Defining Moves into "Moves Defining Your Stat Spread" and "why yes our Ghost does learn Shadow Ball" is a good way to reduce clutter and hopefully strengthen the flow of the Stats stages.

 

[quziel]

Sorta agree, and my updated proposal is:
1) Create a list of Implied Moves

• Universal STABs by typing
• Universal Utility by typing

2) Defining moves should be moves that require major changes to stat spreads

• Rare STABs
• Exceptional Utility
• Boosting
• Exceptional Coverage

To sorta explain 2), as I feel its the non-obvious one, I feel that looking at the CAPs where defining moves have been in place, the moves that actually end up being defining sorta fall into very rare STABs, eg Boomburst or Bitter Blade for Hemogoblin, boosting, see NP on Venom, and exceptional coverage, see Diamond Storm on Saharaja. I am adding an "exceptional utility" category in case we wanna try to replicate Iron Valiant and make the best Encore user to ever grace the game. I'd also like to put a 48 hour warning (unless discussion picks back up).

 

[quziel]

Ok, I think the above, by virtue of having noone against it, probably works. I think I'll be transitioning this to discord over the weekend to get a list of "Universal STABs by typing" and "Universal Utility by typing".

 

[quziel]

Universally Assumed Moves:
(Only covering good moves here) (Listing exceptions)

Bug

Bug Bite
Bug Buzz

Dark

Dark Pulse
At least one of Crunch, Night Slash, or Throat Chop (Cacturne, Moltres-Galar, Spiritomb, Bombirdier, Honchkrow, Hoopa-U, Meowscarada...)
Taunt

Dragon

Draco Meteor
Dragon Pulse
Outrage

Electric

Discharge (Iron Hands, Iron Thorns)
Thunderbolt
Thunder
Thunder Wave (Iron Hands)
Volt Switch (Pincurchin)
Wild Charge (Rotom)

Fairy

Dazzling Gleam (Azumarill, Tinkaton)
Play Rough (Florges, Gardevoir, Flutter Mane, Iron Valiant, Carbink)

Fighting

Bulk Up (Iron Hands, Iron Valiant, Lilligant-Hisui)
Brick Break (Flamigo, all the Tauros-Paldea formes)
Close Combat

Fire

Fire Blast
Flare Blitz (Scovillain)
Will-o-Wisp (Iron Moth)
Flamethrower
Overheat
Heat Wave (Scovillain, Tauros-Paldea-Blaze)

Flying

At least one of Brave Bird or Acrobatics (Dragonite, Gyarados, Salamence, Tropius - mostly infamous flying mons that don't get flying moves)
At least one of Hurricane or Air Slash (Hawlucha, Jumpluff)

Ghost

Shadow Ball
Hex (Annihilape, Hoopa)
Night Shade (Giratina, Hoopa)

Grass

Giga Drain
Leaf Storm
Energy Ball
Seed Bomb (Iron Leaves)
Bullet Seed (Iron Leaves)

Ground

Earthquake (Toedscruel)
Stomping Tantrum (Palossand, Sandaconda, Toedscruel)
Earth Power
Stealth Rock
Rock Slide (Sandy Shocks, Toedscruel)
Stone Edge (Sandy Shocks, Toedscruel)
Rock Tomb (Sandy Shocks, Toedscruel)

Ice

Ice Beam (Chien Pao)
Blizzard
Icicle Spear or Icicle Crash or Ice Punch (Articuno, Avalugg-Hisui, Cryogonal, Frosmoth, Glaceon)
Avalanche

Normal

Facade
Take Down
At least one of Double-Edge or Body Slam (Arboliva, Grafaiai, Maushold)
Tera Blast notably Hyper Voice isn't universal

Poison

Acid Spray (Amoonguss)
Gunk Shot (Amoonguss, Iron Moth, Venomoth)
all mons that get Poison Jab also get Gunk Shot
Sludge Bomb (Iron Moth)
Toxic OR Toxic Spikes (Seviper, Slowbro-Galar)

Psychic

Calm Mind (Veluza)
Psychic (Iron Leaves)
Psyshock (Iron Leaves, Veluza)
At least one of Zen Headbutt, Psycho Cut, or Psychic Fangs (Armarouge, Iron Leaves, Raichu-Alola)

Rock

Rock Blast
Stealth Rock
Stone Edge
Rock Slide
Power Gem (Avalugg-Hisui, Drednaw, Kleavor, Lycanroc)
Earth Power (Arcanine-Hisui, Avalugg-Hisui, Kleavor)
Earthquake (Arcanine-Hisui, Diancie, Glimmora, Klawf, Kleavor, Lycanroc)
Iron Defense (Arcanine-Hisui, Kleavor)
Body Press (Arcanine-Hisui, Glimmora, Klawf, Kleavor, Lycanroc)

Steel

Flash Cannon
Iron Head (Tinkaton, Klefki, Lucario)
Steel Beam
Iron Defense (Goodra-H, Tinkaton, Gholdengo)

Water

Surf (Iron Bundle, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Volcanion)
Hydro Pump (Urshifu-Rapid-Strike)
Chilling Water (Volcanion)
Waterfall or Liquidation (Iron Bundle, Tatsugiri)

 

[shnowshner]

Note that the list above was done within a ~1-2 hour period during a call between quziel, snake, Scizivire, and myself (Palosaks helped out in the discord thread too, as best one can while not actually in VC). I feel it's a good start towards where things should be, but there's a couple holes and other issues I'd want to make sure are ironed out. I'm going to go through each typing and provide some commentary.

Here's what I consider to be the guidelines of our Universally Assumed Moves (UAM), based off of quziel's descriptions and the above methodology.

1. A move is automatically considered universal for a type if the vast majority of Fully Evolved, non-Legendary/Mythical Pokemon learn it.
2. The given move does not have to match the typing to be counted.
3. Because of how Pokemon is designed as a video game, certain STAB moves within a typing should be considered as a larger whole if necessary.
   • This aspect is rather complicated and difficult for me to put in exact words: I cover what's going on here below.
4. Pokemon with more than two distinct forms shouldn't be considered (Rotom, Arceus, Oricorio, etc.)

Bug

Bug Bite
Bug Buzz

This already isn't an amazing start, but Bug has a pretty meager movepool to work with. Bug Buzz is the only Special move worth looking into in 90% of situations, so that's fine. On the other hand, Bug Bite being our only option here really sucks for Physical spreads, so we need some metric of defining a Physical move for any Bug-types we wish to pursue.

This is where that 3rd guideline comes into play: although no physical Bug-type move satisfies our quota for universality, we can narrow down a set of Bug-type moves which does. Not all Pokemon moves of a type necessarily mesh well with all Pokemon of their type, which often limits distribution. In this case, the moves which feel the most appropriate for our Physical STAB (X-Scissor, Leech Life, and Megahorn) all employ different styles of attacking (slashing the target with claws, biting them, or having a horn) which will not fit perfectly for the wide variety of designs present. If we consider picking at least one of these moves as UAM for the Bug-type, it works out just fine. The only Pokemon that don't learn any of these are Combee, Forretress, Kricketot, Pineco, Scatterbug, Snom, Spewpa, and Vivillon, of which only Forretress and Vivillon relevant for our purposes (technically Male Combee is FE, but nobody cares nor should they).

Keep in mind, I'm only doing this because Bug lacks a reliable STAB move that fits our criteria. You could probably justify a lot of moves this way, but I find that overstepping the purpose of UAM, and would likely get messy to regulate. We should reserve this power solely for cases where a typing doesn't provide us a suitable STAB move.

Dark

Dark Pulse
At least one of Crunch, Night Slash, or Throat Chop (Cacturne, Moltres-Galar, Spiritomb, Bombirdier, Hoopa-U, Wo-Chien)
Taunt

Right, so, after having explained the situation with Bug, we come to Dark... which is potentially the messiest of these typings.

The three moves above—Crunch, Night Slash, Throat Chop—fit perfectly within our UAM perameters balance-wise, yet fall short of covering all Dark types, with six total outliers! Lets investigate further.

• Three are Legendary/Mythical (Hoopa-U, Moltres-Galar, Wo-Chien)
• Three learn Knock Off (Bombirdier, Hoopa-U, Wo-Chien)
• Three learn Sucker Punch (Cacturne, Moltres-Galar, Spiritomb)
• Four are Mixed Attackers (Cacturne, Hoopa-U, Spiritomb, Wo-Chien)
• One is primarily a Special Attacker (Moltres-Galar)
• Hoopa-U has access to Hyperspace Fury, which likely influences the Dark moves it learns
• IDK I think GameFreak hates Cacturne and just didn't want it to learn a reliable Physical Dark move

Knock Off (or Sucker Punch) would get us to the point where this would fit our guidelines, however we argued over if including Knock Off here would just overshadow the other options present. Knock is an exceptional move, and it feels disingenuous to lump it in as an "assumed move" when it's distribution across Dark-types is unimpressive. Granted, Throat Chop is low as well, but the move isn't nearly as strong as Knock is.

I think Dark needs to end up being an exception here. The three moves quziel included work nicely as basic Dark STAB, even if they don't perfectly cover the whole of Dark-types.

Dragon

Draco Meteor
Dragon Pulse
Outrage

This gets us pretty far honestly, Draco is a no-brainer, Pulse is workable depending on what the mon wants to do, and Outrage certainly packs a punch, if not awkward to use. Dragon Claw almost fits, as it is absent from only a handful of FE mons, the majority of which don't go Physical ever.

Electric

Discharge (Iron Hands, Iron Thorns)
Thunderbolt
Thunder
Thunder Wave (Iron Hands)
Volt Switch (Pincurchin)
Wild Charge (Rotom)

Electric works out nicely. Physical is underrepresented but that's canon anyhow.

Fairy

Dazzling Gleam (Azumarill, Tinkaton)
Play Rough (Florges, Gardevoir, Flutter Mane, Iron Valiant, Carbink)

Yeah, so... this isn't much. We do at least have a common Special move, but Physical is quite sad. I find it worth noting that only Iron Valiant here actually cares about having a Physical STAB, so I feel that does justify Play Rough. Realistically, however, this move feels like a given since it's practically the only option for Physical STAB a Fairy can even have access to.

Fighting

Bulk Up (Iron Hands, Iron Valiant, Lilligant-Hisui)
Brick Break (Flamigo, all the Tauros-Paldea formes)
Close Combat

Critically missing a Special move. Aura Sphere would work here due to its modest BP and lack of meaningful secondary effect.

Fire

Fire Blast
Flare Blitz (Scovillain)
Will-o-Wisp (Iron Moth)
Flamethrower
Overheat
Heat Wave (Scovillain, Tauros-Paldea-Blaze)

This is good. Flare Blitz is somewhat restrictive, but such is the life of the Physical Fire-type.

Flying

At least one of Brave Bird or Acrobatics (Dragonite, Gyarados, Salamence, Tropius - mostly infamous flying mons that don't get flying moves)
At least one of Hurricane or Air Slash (Hawlucha, Jumpluff)

Unsurprisingly, one of the broadest types in the game has very little common-ground when it comes to moves. I feel like we have to compromise with this one if we want any sort of implied STAB.

Ghost

Shadow Ball
Hex (Annihilape, Hoopa)
Night Shade (Giratina, Hoopa)

Another type pretty infamous for lacking moves. Special is fine, but Physical needs something. Shadow Claw isn't an amazing move but is the most reasonable option we have.

Grass

Giga Drain
Leaf Storm
Energy Ball
Seed Bomb (Iron Leaves)
Bullet Seed (Iron Leaves)

Great!

Ground

Earthquake (Toedscruel)
Stomping Tantrum (Palossand, Sandaconda, Toedscruel)
Earth Power
Stealth Rock
Rock Slide (Sandy Shocks, Toedscruel)
Stone Edge (Sandy Shocks, Toedscruel)
Rock Tomb (Sandy Shocks, Toedscruel)

Ground and Rock naturally share similarities, and thus inherit one another's moves. Anyway, EQ and EP are both present, this gets an easy pass.

Ice

Ice Beam (Chien Pao)
Blizzard
Icicle Spear or Icicle Crash or Ice Punch (Articuno, Avalugg-Hisui, Cryogonal, Frosmoth, Glaceon)
Avalanche

Here we go again with the elemental type lacking good Physical move distribution... or so I thought. Think somewhere we lapsed on a critical Gen 9 inclusion: Ice Spinner. If we just slap this alongside Icicle Crash, our only outliers are Arceus-Ice, Cubchoo, Glaceon, Rotom-Frost, and Snom, of which only Glaceon matters. That's much better! At least one of Icicle Crash or Ice Spinner grants us the Physical move desired in the simplest way possible.

Normal

Facade
Take Down
At least one of Double-Edge or Body Slam (Arboliva, Grafaiai, Maushold)
Tera Blast

Yeah, whatever. Hyper Voice not being universal is fine, we have Tera Blast, and it's not like the option isn't there for moves proper.

Poison

Acid Spray (Amoonguss)
Gunk Shot (Amoonguss, Iron Moth, Venomoth)
all mons that get Poison Jab also get Gunk Shot
Sludge Bomb (Iron Moth)
Toxic OR Toxic Spikes (Seviper, Slowbro-Galar)

Poison Jab lacks a fair bit of users, but the fact that more mons get the stronger Gunk Shot makes me wanna say it's justified to include on its own. All bases are pretty well covered with this one.

Psychic

Calm Mind (Veluza)
Psychic (Iron Leaves)
Psyshock (Iron Leaves, Veluza)
At least one of Zen Headbutt, Psycho Cut, or Psychic Fangs (Armarouge, Iron Leaves, Raichu-Alola)

Iron Leaves should just be ruled out entirely: it learns only one damaging Psychic move, and that's its signature Psyblade. I'm not sure how this got past quality control, but this is also coming from Scarlet/Violet so I guess we have to expect stuff like that. Anyway, our Physical suite is a bit scuffed, and I imagine we usually just go Psychic Fangs should we make a Psychic ever again.

Rock

Rock Blast
Stealth Rock
Stone Edge
Rock Slide
Power Gem (Avalugg-Hisui, Drednaw, Kleavor, Lycanroc)
Earth Power (Arcanine-Hisui, Avalugg-Hisui, Kleavor)
Earthquake (Arcanine-Hisui, Diancie, Glimmora, Klawf, Kleavor, Lycanroc)
Iron Defense (Arcanine-Hisui, Kleavor)
Body Press (Arcanine-Hisui, Glimmora, Klawf, Kleavor, Lycanroc)

Pretty diverse here, with many of the outliers being repeat offenders (Harcanine and Keavlor especially). All bases covered.

Steel

Flash Cannon
Iron Head (Tinkaton, Klefki, Lucario)
Steel Beam
Iron Defense (Goodra-H, Tinkaton, Gholdengo)

Does what it needs to.

Water

Surf (Iron Bundle, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Volcanion)
Hydro Pump (Urshifu-Rapid-Strike)
Chilling Water (Volcanion)
Waterfall or Liquidation (Iron Bundle, Tatsugiri)

A good note to end it on.

There's likely more we can iron out regarding moves a type is expected to have, but having STABs squared away feels most important to me. Want to know how people feel about Universally Assumed Moves including non-STAB options, I think it's fine but not everyone may be okay with that, and we've definitely had our own CAPs not conform to these examples (such as Krilowatt lacking Hydro Pump or Saharaja lacking Rock Slide).

EDIT: StarFalcon555 brought to my attention that Meowscarada does infact learn Night Slash. I'm pretty sure at least two of us made this same error somehow and I don't want to imagine what exactly we did that resulted in this happening.

 

[Amamama]

Reading through this I think we can stay as close as possible to this list of universal moves.
With the exception of Ice Spinnerthis List doesn’t need any addition. The fact that some Typings don’t have common STABs for both biases is fine.
That’s something we always are mindful of during design anyway.

On the other hand I’m iffy on including Coverage and Utility such as Boosting as universally implied, as both can end up complicating the process.
We might not want these moves for certain processes e.g. Saharaja.
Having to argue for the exclusion/removal of an option ends up being harder than arguing for the inclusion/addition most of the time (see the secondary ability discussion for Hemo)

 

[Brambane]

I think for the purpose of the competitive process, all "no significant effect, with a BP greater than or equal to 75" moves should be included as assumed STABs. Whether or not a move is absent from a fully evolved Pokemon is flavor; the purpose of this list should be prime to movepool for our baseline of power. This would add to the list:

X-Scissor
Dragon Claw
Thunder Punch
Body Press
Aura Sphere
Fire Punch
Drill Peck
Leaf Blade
Ice Spinner

I would hesitate to add the coverage options to specific types, but if we do, I think adding Ice coverage to Water and Shadow Ball to Psychic is logical.

There are some odd ones which have situationally strong effects, but there is a decent alternative (Moonblast for example) that could be debated. I would lean towards yes to Moonblast, Discharge, and Lava Plume.