Regarding Darkrai's Tier Status

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umbarsc

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This discussion has popped up a couple times when discussing the tier status of other Pokemon (Lati@s and Deoxys-S), and I felt that it was enough to warrant its own thread.

Is Darkrai too broken for OU?

I am pretty neutral on the matter, and I feel that it is up for debate and testing to decide. However, this is what I have gathered when it is compared to Gengar.

Gengar has three immunities and several handy resistances, but Darkrai lacks that crippling Pursuit weakness.

Darkrai has the broken Dark Void, but Gengar has Hypnosis and more versatility.

Darkrai is quite fast, and pulls off a SubPunching set nicely to compliment its STAB. I feel that if tested, it would probably prove to be broken, but that's my take.

Do you think Darkrai is OU-capable? Or do you feel that theorymon is strong enough to not warrant testing?

Discuss.
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I think that this would suck personally and centralize the metagame extremely.... It is essentially Gengar with more Speed, Special Attack, Attack and Defenses, a more accurate sleep move, better typing, ability to run a MixSet very well, CM, Bolt beam and more powerful attacks... So it is just basically Gengar+. And Gengar is one of the Top 5 Pokemon in OU arguably, so this is a big no-no.
 
Ok look.. darkrai is way faster, has CM, bolt-beam more accurate sleep move, more attack power, focus punch to rape blissey, and many other things like its broken ability with sandstorm, stealth rocks and bad dreams thats doing almost 30% perturn. As rhykune said this thing is like gengar+

please keep this thing in ubers.
 
hmm

it's fast, weavile/swellow fast, in fact, with not-horrible defenses, 70/90/90, it can accomplish a "double-powder" effect with fairly good accuracy (T-Wave, Dark Void, and Will-O-Wisp) it's got Pory-Z level Sp. Attack (135 base) with Dark Pulse as its stab (80 with 20% flinch)

it can also learn taunt from the TM, making it among the faster taunters if it were to hit metagame.

it'd make a fairly good Cressy counter, and would outrun non-scarf starmies consistently, could pack Ice Beam for those non-scarf 4x weak dragons, or even scarf itself for an impressive mark of up to 523 speed (c_x)

but it would be set up on by sleeptalking heracross, wouldn't be able to do much to T-Tar without devoting a slot to Focus Blast (or running a substitute focus punch set?) and it's moves coverage is basically down to Dark, *iffy Fighting*, Ice, Electric and Dark Void (sleep).

it's also pointless to bring an "ubers" pokemon to OU but strip it of its signature move (dark void), so it's either Darkrai with an 80 acc sleep move and its broken ability or no Darkrai at all
 
I initially thought that Darkrai was OU material, I even made a thread about it before in early D/P but after playing some OU matches and a ton of Uber matches with this thing I now seriously think it would be too much for OU standards to handle.

It doesn't have the resistances like gengar but its other stats back it up greatly, In the thread I had made alot of people quoted Dark Void as the main reason of it being Uber but even if this thing is only using Hypnosis or if it even lacked a sleep inducing move to begin with it would still pose a threat to every pokemon in OU, honestly I think it should remain in the Uber tier.

I'm all free for testing it but I think it would be a waste of time.
All of the other Ubers currently being discussed all have a higher chance of being allowed in OU than Darkrai does.
 
Darkrai gets annihilated by ScarfCross and the Assassin Yanmega quite handily, as Dark typing gives it big weaks to their STAB attacks.

Scarfed Fighters in general really screw it over, since that means that it can be revenge-killed just like that.

There's also a lot of pokemon that run RestTalk already, so Dark Void is just like any other sleeping move.

Unlike Gengar, this thing doesn't have 3 immunities and a 4x resist to bug to switch in on. Darkrai has incredible trouble with Choice Scarf users, and Crobat, who is faster, and it can easily put Darkrai to sleep, or just do a quick U-Turn out and hit Darkrai for super-effective damage, which on Darkrai, will be quite a bit of damage.

Blissey walls it quite easily, and it's not as if Darkrai's subs are exactly all that hard to break. Plus, he only has 4 moveslots. Plus, Darkrai needs to be extremely careful when trying to use Focus Punch on Blissey, because it will seriously need A LOT of attack EV investment to OHKO Blissey, and if it doesn't OHKO, it may get itself Thunder Waved in the process, messing him up for the entire match.

Tyranitar screw up the special sets quite nicely, unless they're running Focus Blast.

There's most likely even more counters, but these are just a couple.

In short, I think that since the other pokemon in the 600 BST club got some kind of testing, Darkrai should at least have SOME testing, just so were not just banning it in theory.
 
Bologo said:
Darkrai gets annihilated by ScarfCross and the Assassin Yanmega quite handily, as Dark typing gives it big weaks to their STAB attacks.

Scarfed Fighters in general really screw it over, since that means that it can be revenge-killed just like that.

There's also a lot of pokemon that run RestTalk already, so Dark Void is just like any other sleeping move.

Unlike Gengar, this thing doesn't have 3 immunities and a 4x resist to bug to switch in on. Darkrai has incredible trouble with Choice Scarf users, and Crobat, who is faster, and it can easily put Darkrai to sleep, or just do a quick U-Turn out and hit Darkrai for super-effective damage, which on Darkrai, will be quite a bit of damage.

Blissey walls it quite easily, and it's not as if Darkrai's subs are exactly all that hard to break. Plus, he only has 4 moveslots. Plus, Darkrai needs to be extremely careful when trying to use Focus Punch on Blissey, because it will seriously need A LOT of attack EV investment to OHKO Blissey, and if it doesn't OHKO, it may get itself Thunder Waved in the process, messing him up for the entire match.

Tyranitar screw up the special sets quite nicely, unless they're running Focus Blast.

There's most likely even more counters, but these are just a couple.

In short, I think that since the other pokemon in the 600 BST club got some kind of testing, Darkrai should at least have SOME testing, just so were not just banning it in theory.
Click to expand...

Then let's test Deoxys-FR, it's only 600 BST.

How does Yanmega switch in exactly? Worst case it switches in and eats an ice beam or dark pulse from Porygon-Z level SA. Best case, it switches in on something that doesn't kill it, Darkrai subs on the turn it protects for speed boost, and puts it to sleep or kills it next turn. Just because something carries a SE move doesn't make it a counter.

Tyranitar has to hope Darkrai doesn't have focus punch or focus blast, both common moveset options, and that dark void misses. Adamant Tyranitar stone edge isn't even a 1hko on Darkrai so how is he a counter?

Blissey does not wall the standard FP set and can be setup fodder for a CM set if he dark voids her.

And all of its counters have to deal with being put to sleep if they're slower than 383 speed, or hope that a teammate has already been put to sleep to activate sleep clause.

In short, Sub/Dark Void/FP/Dark Pulse beats all of these "counters". And that's just 1 of his standard sets.
 
It would have come along with other banned members of the 600 club.You could make a good argument for it being banned but i would love to see how the metagame would be if all the 600 pokes and wobby was allowed.I hope it gets tested in shoddy for a month.

I think we should have 600 amnesty month followed by big 600 amnesty tourny then we decide what pokes belong and what don't.I know this won't really solve anything but at least everybody theorymon would be a lot better and would be based in some facts.
 
Even though Darkrai is my favorite pogey, I find the idea of putting him in OU rather ridiculous. Darkrai is absurdly hard to counter in ubers (you need one pogey to absorb the sleep, and the other to counter it. Unlike other sleepers, Darkrai pack wallbreaking ability and his Bad Dreams can destroy Focus Sash. It should be noted that Darkrai can avoid using Dark Void early in the game, only to launch them later). Darkrai's boosted offensive stats make Gengar's look like trash and can often leave the opponent near dead in a wrong move...90/135 is actually surprisingly high.

I will also note that even though Darkrai lacks awesome resists unlike Gengar, it makes it up by resisting Pursuit and the lack of Levitate by being faster than Dugtrio. Darkrai is also a pretty good Azelf counter too (avoid U-Turn/HP Fight whenever possible).
 
Umm, that stuff about Deoxys-FR is just stupid, there's no need for that comparison, because Deoxys-A was already around in ADV, so it could've at least gotten looked at.

Pretty much every 600 BST has gotten testing except Darkrai who was just introduced this generation, and therefore he's been banned COMPLETELY on theorymon, which is just unfair IMO. I dunno, I just don't like how he hasn't been given any sort of chance at all since he was banned at the initial release of D/P.

That Sub/Dark Void/FP/Dark Pulse set can be beaten really easily if Dark Pulse is the only reliable attacking move.

Ok, assassin Yanmega doesn't work, but ScarfMega still works perfectly fine as a revenge killer. Same with Scarfcross and Ninjask.

Darkrai needs an insane amount of defensive EVs to survive a CBTar Stone Edge, and if it has so many defensive EVs, it's not going to have enough for speed/attack/special attack, and then it's much less of a threat.

None of my business if it stays in ubers though.
 
That Sub/Dark Void/FP/Dark Pulse set can be beaten really easily if Dark Pulse is the only reliable attacking move.
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The thing is...you won't know when it's gonna Dark Void. Darkrai can Sub on your Rest/Talker (Cress/magnezone/etc), and then leave you with two options: Switch and get your other stuff slept, or stay in and get hit by an SE move. Gengar can do the same, but with a 70% acc sleep move, no Bad Dreams, less power and Pursuit weakness, I don't think so
 
Bologo said:
Umm, that stuff about Deoxys-FR is just stupid, there's no need for that comparison, because Deoxys-A was already around in ADV, so it could've at least gotten looked at.

Pretty much every 600 BST has gotten testing except Darkrai who was just introduced this generation, and therefore he's been banned COMPLETELY on theorymon, which is just unfair IMO. I dunno, I just don't like how he hasn't been given any sort of chance at all since he was banned at the initial release of D/P.

That Sub/Dark Void/FP/Dark Pulse set can be beaten really easily if Dark Pulse is the only reliable attacking move.

Ok, assassin Yanmega doesn't work, but ScarfMega still works perfectly fine as a revenge killer. Same with Scarfcross and Ninjask.

Darkrai needs an insane amount of defensive EVs to survive a CBTar Stone Edge, and if it has so many defensive EVs, it's not going to have enough for speed/attack/special attack, and then it's much less of a threat.
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Using a revenge killer as a "counter" means every time Darkrai gets into play, something dies. See the problem there?

And CBTar is the only Tar that can 1hko it, but Tar cannot switch into Darkrai. So he isn't a counter.

Tell me what counters that set and I might agree with you, but all you're saying is "it can be easily beaten if Dark Pulse is its only reliable attacking move" without giving a real counter besides Heracross. When you have 80% sleep off 383 speed and guaranteed subs, FP is reliable, and there's always ice beam or focus blast if you aren't afraid of Blissey.
 
Blissey seems to be a good counter if he can't put her to sleep, a max attack Focus Punch (+nature, no item, 252 EVs) does 64.85-76.83% to standard Bliss, while a Dark Pulse does 14.85-17.37% if you also put 252 EVs into Sp.Attack as well, and he doesn't have 101 subs so he can't get more than 1 FP off a sub. Focus Punch isn't even a 2HKO if Blissey uses Softboiled the turn after and you predict it. Blissey seems to be a pretty safe counter at a first glance.
 
DemonOfWrath said:
Blissey seems to be a good counter if he can't put her to sleep, a max attack Focus Punch (+nature, no item, 252 EVs) does 64.85-76.83% to standard Bliss, while a Dark Pulse does 14.85-17.37% if you also put 252 EVs into Sp.Attack as well, and he doesn't have 101 subs so he can't get more than 1 FP off a sub. Focus Punch isn't even a 2HKO if Blissey uses Softboiled the turn after and you predict it. Blissey seems to be a pretty safe counter at a first glance.
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No, the standard analysis Darkrai (Hasty/Naive with 156 ev's in attack) does 80-94% to standard Blissey. Stealth rock and its dead. Guess you overlooked the Life Orb. Speaking of which, that lets it 1hko Yanmega with dark pulse, I forgot to put that in my calcs.
 
The Darkrai analysis says it best as far as its "counters" are concerned...

In general, you need two Pokémon to stop Darkrai: one to absorb Sleep, and the other to withstand its moves and annihilate or scare Darkrai out of the battlefield.

Switch in a Sleep Talker on Dark Void, then switch in a Steel / Fighting type on the Dark Pulse. That should be the way to go, but even that has its problems:

Heatran has to worry about Focus Punch.
Heracross can't take many Thunderbolts and also has to be aware of the rare Psychic.
Lucario - see Heatran.
(That's all I can think of off the top of my head.)

Either way, you could be taking a chance that Darkrai has the one move that ruins your particular strategy. Scouting its set beforehand wouldn't be a bad idea. (I would strongly suggest it!)
 
I have to agree with Maniac here, I suggested it was OU a month ago, but after having many uber matches, I believe not...
 
Saying something can be revenge killed is the single handedly most stupid argument there is. Oh, we should allow the Latis Soul Dew anyways, we'll use revenge kill it later. Oh Kyogre? Fuck that i'll just send in something with Thunder after it kills me! Groudon? Let it fear my Revenge killing Ice Beam!!
 
I think we need to compile a list of counters specifically for Sub/Dark Void/Focus Punch/Dark Pulse:

Heracross (Sleep Talk variation)
Machamp (Sleep Talk)

What a whopping list, especially loving how sketchy both of them are....

And this is only for a single set. Of course, we need to compile some counters for once Sleep Clause is activated.

Heracross
Blissey
Machamp
Hitmontop

Basically anything that can take a Dark Pulse without being wrecked by Focus Punch. Snorlax isn't here because it lacks a recovery move, so it can't come in on those 2HKO Focus Punches more than once.
 
Heh, alright. I'm done defending Darkrai. I'll admit, when I tried defending this guy, I forgot about Bad Dreams completely, which I feel is a totally unfair ability, which is a neutral stealth rock each turn, turning many 3HKOs into 2HKOs and such, and messing up every pokemon that doesn't have reliable recovery.

I just thought it'd be useful to test it since stuff like Mew and Manaphy got testing, while Darkrai was banned right from the start.

Bleh, I know I'm gonna be the only one defending Darkrai, so if it's gotta stay in ubers, then I guess I'm just gonna have to make an uber team... :(
 
Actually, I'm all for testing Darkrai in OU as well now that Deoxys-E has moved down. I don't see how Dark Void is so broken as everyone claims, it's not 100% accurate, only 80%. It's not a huge step up from Hypnosis. The strongest STAB Darkrai gets is only 80 BP. Bad Dreams does hurt, but who the hell keeps a sleeping pokemon in against Darkrai? Also, as this is a common argument in the Deoxys topic, Darkrai suffers from the 4 moveslot syndrome as well. It can't run Dark Void / Focus Punch / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Dark Pulse / Calm Mind / Substitute / whatever, it has to choose between 4 attacks.

Darkrai will almost always run Dark Void, that's a given. So now you have 3 moveslots left. Focus Punch can be used to 2HKO Blissey and Snorlax. Thunderbolt / Ice Beam can be used for type coverage, Dark Pulse for STAB, Calm Mind for stat boosting, or Substitute for scouting. It can't do everything at once.

I know I'm going to get shot down pretty quickly, just thought I'd post my thoughts on things.
 
I don't see the problem in four moveslots when Dark Void/Focus Punch/Dark Pulse/Substitute is pretty damn hard to counter as it is, even in ubers.
 
blaziken, as jibaku stated.. the thing is so damn fast you can never get when a dark void is coming. if you switch into to sleep absorber and he subs and then calm minds and proceeds to rape you with an ice beam or thunderbolt? and then dark voids the next pokemon, its Really hard to counter. even in freaking ubers... you throw in giratina to absorb sleep and he subs and owns with darkpulse.. =0
 
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