RMT - Generic noob powers, activate!

[Star Flare]

So the story is – a relatively new player wanting opinions on his offensive team. I admit there is nothing particularly original about any of my movesets or pokes, but I feel they work well together and have given me a good deal of success, winning ~75% of battles, and bear in mind that some of the earlier losses were due to inexperienced mispredictions which allowed the opposing team to sweep *coughmotordrive*. So I don't think I am doing too badly - I have been lurking and studying the competetive scene for quite some time now and would appreciate some tips. ^_^

At a glance:

While at first it may seem a little too offensively oriented (with 3 choice users) they compliment each other nicely and are usually able to break through opposing defenses. The whole point of this team is to wear down opponents no matter how sturdy they are. It is not designed to have all 6 pokes alive and well by the end, and rarely will it do so. Nevertheless, it has proven many times that it can stop the opponent's strategy cold with its slightly extreme offenses.

The general strategy is to start by destroying the enemy lead with starmie's offensive prowess, hopefully preventing or removing stealth rock, then switching into swampert ASAP to get my own rocks up. From there, scizor and flygon scouting in the form of u-turns can bring out potential threats so that I can deal with them accordingly. The team has great synergy as checked with the marrilland team builder - pretty much all weaknesses are covered.

Two electric immunities to prevent thunder wave paralysis, two immunities to poison and starmie with its natural cure ensure that status effects (which could be a huge problem with some offense teams) do not stop them easily.

So, without further ado...

Bolded Red text represents any adjustments made.

Timid Starmie @ Life Orb

Natural Cure

EVs: 252 Special Attack/ 252 Speed/ 6 HP

• Rapid Spin
• Hydro Pump
  
• Thunderbolt
• Ice Beam

I love this anti-lead! As I’m sure you’re all aware, this set allows it to take on a huge number of common leads, and rapid spin away any of their efforts. Surf takes on infernape and heatran whilst still heavily denting anything that doesn’t resist it hard, giving a nice guaranteed 2HKO on most metagross. Grass knot was added in place of thunderbolt to cover swampert and hippowdon, and Ice beam takes on the fliers. Azelf speed ties are annoying, though sets with fire blast over explosion can’t do much harm.

One of the great things about this set is that it can often finish its job with some health left over, allowing it to come back in later on if necessary (particularly useful if I predict a status move such as sleep). It can also lure in some thunderbolts which is the perfect opportunity to switch into...

Relaxed Swampert @ Leftovers

Ability: Torrent

EVs: 252 HP/ 252 Defense/ 6 Attack

• Stealth Rock
• Roar
• Ice Beam
• Earthquake

Coming in slightly late, mixpert does exactly what it would do if it was leading, but without the problem of the enemy leads setting up or taunting him. With his defences it is easy to find an early to midgame opportunity to switch him in and set up. Roar was previously protect, however my team was very vulnerable to being set up on and in fact protect sometimes even allows enemies to set up if I mispredict. Roar is overall a much more useful option, with the added bonus of extra damage from SR. In conjuction with ice beam it acts as a good salamence counter, with its other attacking option providing it with its STAB and decent coverage.

Adamant Scizor @ Choice Band

Ability: Technician

EVs: 248 HP/ 252 Attack/ 10 Speed

• Bullet Punch
• Pursuit
• U-Turn
• Superpower

I imagine there must be a point where regulars groan everytime they see this set, but opting not to use something so effective just because it's popular would be dumb. And, well... as if I need to say anything. Choice Band scizor does what choice band scizor always does. With U-Turn for scouting and luring out counters such as heatran and infernape, excellent synergy with my next teammate, bullet punch as its overpowered priority move, pursuit for taking out many psychic types and gengar, and superpower to deal with things such as TTar and Blissey...you all know the score. It's also my latias counter - without it she would pose much more of a threat to the team.

Jolly Flygon @ Choice Band

Ability: Levitate

EVs: 252 Attack/ 252 Speed/ 6 HP

• Outrage
• Stone Edge
• U-Turn
• Earthquake

A standard Flygon set, but with choice band over choice scarf. And boy do I love it. The number of times this has caught people out, with them staying in expecting to survive moves coming off an attack stat of 299 and instead being OHKO’d by its 448 attack STAB moves. (Scarf flygon is 3 times more common than Band flygon). STAB off EQ really helps bring its power up to something that rivals salamence’s, and its handy resistances (including stealth rock) and U-turn make it a great teammate for scizor (and ground and electric immunity work wonders). Stone Edge isn’t used much, but does provide the only rock move on my team bar stealth.

I’m not sure if I’d like to run an adamant nature for the extra 44 attack though, as I’d miss out on the speed tie with other positive 100s amongst other things. But perhaps the extra power would be more useful over all? I’ll be testing both to see, and would appreciate your opinions.

Timid Gengar @ Choice Scarf

Ability: Levitate

EVs: 252 Special Attack/ 178 Speed/ 80 HP

• Shadow ball
• Thunderbolt
• Focus Blast
• Hidden Power (Ice)

Oh, the revenge killings. Should I mispredict and allow a setup sweeper to get a kill, this can usually prevent a sweep with its great coverage and ridiculous 495 speed, which allows it to outspeed +1 DDMence and hit back with HP. It also outruns just about everything else, including all but the fastest scarfers.

Lack of fire does of course leave it weak to scizor, but then even HP isn’t going to save him from a swift bullet punch. As long as I use him with caution he is a formiddable additon to the team.It also gets plenty of opportunities to switch in with its great immunities, and 359 Special attack is going to leave more than a mere glancing blow.

Although it’s not particularly important, I was unsure whether it’s more beneficial to dump those spare EVs into HP, or Defense, or just to keep pumping them into speed to outrun any remaining threats (not that many things get far above 495...) since it won’t like taking hits regardless of 20 HP/ Defense. I am also considering modest nature still and keep flipping between the two - the 35 extra SpA is nice but it does leave DDMence entirely in the hands of swampert.

Naive Infernape @ Life Orb

Ability: Blaze

EVs: 252 Attack/ 192 Speed/ 64 Special Attack

• Mach Punch
  
• U-Turn
  
• Overheat
• Close Combat

A slightly filler poke which happened to have the fire coverage and synergy I need. Although it can be useful it is the only one to truly not prove its worth yet - all other team members are invaluable but this guy would have little need to exist if there was fire coverage. It is hard to find opportunities to switch it in given its frailty, but it damages the steels it needs whilst being covered for others. I definitely would be interested an improvement for this slot, but just can't seem to fit anything in. Still, nasty plot can be very useful when facing enemies that will switch out. Oh, and flamethrower replaced fire blast because moves with less than 100% accuracy hate me.

So, rate and possibly hate? =) Anything is appreciated, and I must admit I'm kinda nervous. Probably foolish of a newbie to go posting a team straight off, but what can I say? I'm eager to get started. Just please don't take my enthusiasm as misunderstanding of the metagame, I'm definitely picking things up quickly.

One problem I have noticed is trick room teams, which can walk me. Whilst not overly common, I am rather stuck on how to counter such teams, so again any suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jumpman16]

hi and welcome to smogon

im not sure i like life orb on your anti-lead starmie...its job is to rid the field of SR and combat popular leads, which it doesn't need the boost from LO to do. you can use expert belt and almost always kill both swampert and hippowdon with gk and surf respectively, if they decide to stay in and sr, and then you can use rapid spin if they're actually still alive and that will probably kill them

i also dont like how few answers you have for enemy scizor which can kinda uturn on anything it wants and keep your relatively frail team on the defensive. i dont like gengar for that reason...i'd prefer a much bulkier scarfer like jirachi that can fill the same role (insurance against +1 gyarados/salamence). iron head and all the punches will keep you covered against everything, or if you want to use uturn over fire punch (since jirachi isn't exactly the best scizor check) you can do that and stay on the offensive yourself

other than that it looks good

 

[Huntofthelion]

Hi. Really nice team, especially for a first try. I think a few minor changes could really benefit you though. Starting with Starmie, I would actually suggest keeping LO on it. This isn't so much to combat other leads, however it will help it later in the game, particularly against Latias and Defensive Rotom, who can both be 2HKO'd with Life Orb. (2 Hydro Pumps for Rotom, and Hydro Pump + Ice Beam for Latias.) I would also suggest using Thunderbolt over Grass Knot, as it will provide better coverage. Grass Knot is really only for Swampert, who I'm pretty sure is 2HKO'd by Hydro Pump anyway.

Next is your Scizor, who I feel needs his EV spread tweaked. Since he's really your only check to Latias, I would suggest a spread of 160 HP / 176 Atk / 24 Spe / 148 SpD to let it take special hits a lot better. It will obviously also help against special threats in general, such as Gengar and Choice-item Rotom. Don't worry about the decrease in Attack EVs, as he still retains the ability to hit very hard with the given spread.

Moving on to Gengar, your primary revenge killer. I think a Scarfed Rotom-H can perform that job better, since it's actually able to take a hit. With an EV spread of 140 HP / 252 Spe / 120 SpA, Rotom will be able to take a hit while still being able to revenge kill most threats. It will let you take an un-boosted Crunch from Lucario, and you'll be able to OHKO it back with Overheat. Rotom lets you better check the previously mentioned Lucario, as well as Gyarados and Scizor.

Rotom-H @Choice Scarf
Timid ; 140 HP / 252 Spe / 120 SpA
Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball / Overheat / Trick

Thunderbolt hits Water-types for super effective damage, particularly Gyarados. It will also generally be your strongest attack, factoring in stab. Shadow Ball hits other Ghost-types hard, which lets you revenge enemy Rotoms as well as Gengars. Overheat allows you to always revenge Lucario, as well as letting you do more damage to Steel-types in general. Trick allows you to have a reliable answer to Stall teams, as well as Pokemon such as CroCune and CurseLax.

Finally, I think you should patch up your weakness to Lucario. He has a hard time setting up, since he'll only get in if one of your choice users is locked into an attack he resists (Ex: Scizor's Bullet Punch, Rotom's Shadow Ball.) However, once he does he can really give you a hard time if Rotom has been killed off by a Pursuit user, something many Lucario teams will be paired with. A plus-2 Close Combat will deal with Scizor and Swampert, and ExtremeSpeed handles the rest of your team. To fix that, I would change Infernape's set to Close Combat / Overheat / Mach Punch / Stone Edge and an EV spread of 252 Atk / 232 Spe / 24 SpA, and a Naive nature. This lets it serve as a check to Lucario, as well as preventing it from being complete set-up bait to Salamence and Gyarados. Overheat allows it to still function as somewhat of a Mixed threat, as it will usually be enough to power through your opponents physical wall.

That's all I can think of, Good Luck!

 

[MadHater]

I personally think you should drop gengar for a more consistent revenge killer (scarf rotom as the above said works great) since you dont actually have a solid answer to gyarados after he gets a DD. I would then drop GK on starmie for recover since LO hydropump actually does a ton to pert to begin with. You wont ohko but most perts will be reluctant to stay in in the first place and if they do they will be severely weakened, which you can then just rapid spin the rocks away.

The infernape imo would benefit more from u turn then nasty plot . This may sound weird but the simple fact of the matter is your team lacks overall bulk and would need to rely nearly completely on scouting properly.

I would personally reevaluate the team alltogether and try to substitute some pokes for bulkier choices, maybe some that take advantage of your anti leads rapid spin. But thats just me.

 

[Star Flare]

Thank you all for your suggestions.

Firstly, regarding hydro pump over surf, I have already tried this out and have been sadly let down. In general I find moves with less than 90 accuracy just fail at the most crucial moments, and whilst I am not one to complain about bad luck in a match, I'm not going to make it a factor where it can be avoided. Of course this does mean sacrificing some power but it's a sacrifice I'm rather set in this and don't intend to change it. As such, not running GK means I'll be much more vulnerable to swampert, though probably not enough to forego thunderbolt's coverage now that I think about it. So yes, I shall try out thunderbolt in that slot instead.

I would also like to defend gengar, whose thunderbolt still OHKO's max HP gyarados, and whose HP ice is frequently unexpected by those salamence users. It can also make lucario sweepers think twice with focus blast (although the accuracy admittedly is horrible) and is an answer to agility'd empoleon as long as they're a little weakened. There are other advantages this guy holds such as its more powerful shadow ball (especially if I run a modest nature, which is looking more and more like the better option recently). I must admit I really am attached to it, it is the one poke that I planned to include all along and I just love its ridiculous speedy attacks. Still, I will try test running rotom for a while, as its defensive capabilities do stand out.

Scizor and Flygon already make a great scouting duo, though hunt’s infernape set interests me... the alternate scizor EVs seem good too, though just out of interest why 24 speed? This doesn’t outspeed anything significant that I’m aware of, I thought 8 was enough.

 

[DarkCyberElf]

Believe me, you will find Hydro Pump much more useful, also I think you should use a bit bulkier Starmie (but still Max speed). Also, Life Orb doesn't fit as well without Recover, as Rapid Spinning isn't worth 10%. I think you should read this from Tarquin's Archived RMT:

Why Hydro Pump over Surf?
Hydro Pump 2HKOes almost all Rotom, Bronzong, Jirachi and Zapdos, which Surf sometimes cannot achieve. Hydro Pump OHKOes Lucario, offensive Scizor, some Magnezone. Hydro Pump brings standard Tyranitar into SR killing range, brings offensive Latias and Celebi into Ice Beam range with Stealth Rock Damage. This is why Hydro Pump is worth it. End of =D

It's ok if you aren't convinced, but in Shoddy, moves like Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, etc. end up hitting a lot more than missing.

Anyway, I think you should go read Tarquin's whole RMT just for the heck of it.


Note the similarities, and the disadvantages and advantages.

Yeah I'm doing a horrible job at just rating it XD

Also, yet another thing that I think you should do for this team (that by the way is another Archived RMT steal) is have Gengar use Explosion over HP Ice. You know what, now I'm not sure what else to say =D

But anyway, from a distance, the team looks pretty good =)

 

[Star Flare]

^That was a very good read, thank you. In fact, our teams are pretty damn similar. I like his style.

I am currently using the physcially based infernape set and it seems superior, though I'm thinking U-turn suits the nature of the team better than stone edge, as I can use it as early game scouting for things including the 2 threats previously mentioned (sala and gyara), and then switch in to the appropriate counters anyway. A team like this needs to keep control of the battlefield.

Hydro pump hasn't won me over completely, but has acted as a decent alternative in some situations. In others its accuracy has infuriated me, but what's an offensive team without a little risk?

Certainly not replacing gengar though. Explosion is an interesting option, and I'll try it out.

The team currently has a nice 31-9 record, and I am definitely comfortable with what I have now. ^_^ Any other suggestions or opinions are appreciated, but otherwise I guess this thread has run its course. Thank you all for your time.

 

[Kumar628]

Hello!

I like your team, it uses Flygon and Infernape, two pokemon who are fierce when worked with properly. And on your team, it moreso does just that. I would really like you to keep Jolly on Flygon. Reason being, as you said, obtaining a speed tie with max positive base 100s. The loss is power is not that great because STAB Outrage and STAB Earthquake dent everything unresistant. I would also like to point out that other CBGons (or non-ScarfGons is more appropriate) usually go with Adamant, so this allows you to outrun them and OHKO with Outrage before they would get a hit in. Being able to tie with Salamence is also invaluable, as he wuld ove switching in and Draco Meteor/Outrage/Dragon Claw-ing the crap out of Flygon without any second thought...however, even the chance to kill Salamence by tieing a huge benefit, and I suggest staying with it. STAB Outrage KOs Salamence after Stealth Rock damage, which is excellent for Flygon's success.

Infernape is fine for now, except your EV spread is: 252 Atk / 192 Spd / 64 Atk. I know you mean Sp Atk, but I'm just trying to keep readers from being confused. You also may want to try Sonte Edge for Mach Punch or U-Turn, but if you want a solid revenge or a scouting move, then that's fine, I just think Stone Edge's coverage is more useful than scouting (on Infernape anyway.) It ensures a solid answer to Zapdos, Moltres, Salamence, Gyarados, and Togekiss, all threats to Infernape.

Gengar has another option for Hidden Power Ice. You could try Trick to cripple some pesky walls like Blissey, Skarmory, or Forretress; or boosters like CMRachi, CMLatias, CroCune, and all of the rest. Just an option, because some boosters can take out at least 2 pokemon if played right, and you obviously don't want that. You want the game in your control, and Trick is the right move for that. It's best used late game, so you still have your solid revenge killer, but can cripple a wall and gain freedom to switch attacks, allowing for a late-game sweeper, maybe. Again, it's a suggestion worth testing, IMO (but it would essentially would be a down-graded Latias to an extent.)

Other than those I have no big changes to your team, it seems pretty rock-hard. Good job! I hope my post helped! Good luck with the team.