RMT [OU]: Elemental Defense

[zaaps1]

Hello all, I've been playing shoddy battle for quite some time. Recently I've made quite a few teams, but haven't been exactly happy with any of this. This team is the first I actually like playing with AND I can use with some success. I've done some tweaks here and there, but I'm hoping you all can improve it better than I can.

One major problem I seem to have is breaking down stall teams or such walls. The obvious solution I've considered is to add a Taunter or Tricker to the team, but I haven't been able to find a suitable replacement in the suitable spot.

The central theme is the defensive core that Heatran, Celebi, and Suicune form. Their purpose is to scout for threats to my team while optimizing defensive coverage. Oftentimes I play though the mid-game using just these 3, bringing out my final 2 Pokemon later to clean up. Celebi is also used to baton pass Swords Dances to my 2 finishing Pokemon, or to a weak Heatran for a powerful Explosion.

Aerodactyl @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 atk/252 speed/4 hp
Nature: Jolly
- taunt
- stealth rock
- rock slide
- earthquake

Basically your standard Aerodactyl. I've tried replaciing Rock slide with Stone Edge, but I liked RS's flitch rate, as it has helped me on quite a few occassions. I didn't have a set reason why I chose Aerodactyl. It seemed to me that it helped my team get off on a fast pace and has decent threat-coverage. I have, recently, been considering other more durable leads. The fact is that Aerodactyl will not survive into the mid-game, and I don't like this "guaranteed" loss of a Pokemon that a suicide lead incurs. So pretty much, I'm open to suggestions on other leads that can get up stealth rock and dent (not necessarily KO) other leads, but be durable enough to survive till the mid-game.

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash fire
EVs: 252 spatk/252spe/4hp
Nature: Modest
- Flamethrower
- Earthpower
- Explosion
- Dragon Pulse

Heatran's revenge killing role suits Aerodactyl's suicide lead role fairly well. It also comes with many resistances I can take advantage of. It's weaknesses to fighting and water are covered by Celebi, and Suicune is also adept at taking a hit if the need arises. This team has trouble with Latias, Salamence, and Flygon, hence the reason why Dragon Pulse was chosen over other options.

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252hp/80atk/176spe
Nature: jolly
- Swords Dance
- Baton Pass
- Recover
- Seed Bomb

Celebi's role is to take hits for Heatran and Suicune. Celebi is the second member of this defensive core. In addition, it is also there to Baton Pass SDs to Lucario or Salamence. Oftentimes, when it is evident that there are no clearcut threats to Celebi, I can pass +4 or even +6 attack to Lucario and make it a clean sweep to the finish.

Every weakness of Celebi's is also covered by another member of the team.

In addition, Celebi can also pass SDs to Salamence, who greatly benefits with +2 Outrages and Earthquakes--providing neutral coverage. However, I don't like passing to Salamence often, because he isn't a full Physical attacker and I feel like the boost is better spent on Lucario. That being said, I also dislike bringing in Lucario too earlier unless it is evident Celebi will not survive to BP again.

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252hp/252def/4 speed
Nature: Pressure
- Surf
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Crocune that forms the final pillar in the defensive core. The reason I have not used a defensive Suicune over Crocune is because the team fell short on special sweepers (not counting Heatran, since he is not fully a dedicated sweeper).

Through playtesting, I've found that Latias could perhaps fulfill this role better, with more resistances, a more diverse movepool, and stronger attacks (not to mention Recover over RestTalk). However, Latias' average physical defense I did not appreciate. I kept with Suicune because it provides great physical defense AS WELL as great special defense, plus more or less the same sweeping ability. What do you all think? Would Latias be better or is the extra physical defense of Suicune worth it?

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 84atk/210spe/216spatk
Nature: Mild
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower

A MixMence that covers a few threats, provides another key fighting type resist, and does well when recieving Celebi's BP boosts. However, I'd like to dedicate more EVs to attack. I'm unsure of exactly how to go about doing this, however.

The main purpose of Salamence's presence is to act as a good user of Celebi's BP while providing an outlet of escape is my opponent is attacking with fire or bug acts, which Salamence resists. Before this I used Infernape, who also acted well, but Salamence seems to be the better attacker.

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252atk/252spe/4def
Nature: Adamant
- Close Combat
- Extremespeed
- Swords Dance
- Crunch

The reason SD is on this set (originally Ice Punch) is because I found that Celebi could not always BP successfully. Therefore, I provided Lucario with a method of setting up itself if the need arose.

There's nothing much to say here. Either I pass SD to Lucario and have Salamence clean up what's left, or have it the other way around with Lucario setting up by itself.




Thank you for taking your time to read my post. I hope that you can provide the advice I need and the answer my questions.

 

[Jumpman16]

sure i'll bite, thanks for your detailed (and first) post

first thing i see is that your celebi strategy, while concrete and legitimate, is bound to fall prey to scizor, which is the runaway #1 pokemon and a specific threat to your team. if you are swords dancing with celebi, scizor is bound to come in, at which point you're going to have to baton pass. it's probably going to u-turn, which is serendipitously a good thing for your two recipients not only since they both resists the shit out of u-turn (salamence with intim and the 2x and luke with the 4x) but because your opponent's #1 priority user is not going to be able to threaten either of them (obviously more of a problem for salamence than luke but still).

otherwise, though, salamence is not going to get away with any kind of sweeping with all the scarf pokemon and scizor looming, and also latias being ou, so while the passing strat looks good on paper, the viability of celebi passing SDs to salamence kind of died out in advance. i honestly dont think that salamence is going to work in that role because there are way too many pokemon faster than it that threaten it. you're going to want a poke that resists bullet punch and is either fast enough to outspeed most pokemon or can take a few hits. you might want to consider a DD gyarados in that role since it will fulfill both roles and has great coverage with waterfall/eq/ice fang

otherwise i think it looks good, electric weakness will kind of suck but whatever, celebi can help you there

 

[zaaps1]

Thanks for the reply!

I'll switch to DD Gyarados and see how things turn out. But then I'd have a big electric weakness, as you said. Do you think it would therefore be worth it to use Latias over Suicune?

 

[Sheshi]

Well since you wanted a better lead, I suggest you might want to try a Leadgross.
Metagross @ Occa Berry
252 HP, 236 ATK, 22 DEF
-Stealth Rock
-Bullet Punch
-Meteor Mash
-Earthquake
I suggest this particular set. With Occa Berry, only Heatran's Overheat attack will OHKO. So in effect, you will mostly get SR up. Meteor Mash will activate sash and then Bullet Punch to finish. You can switch it out and you can use it later in the battle too for some (form of) revenge killing.

As for your Latias/Suicune problem, I believe that if you change Celebi to a physically defensive one and then use Latias then you should be fine. I, also, do not recommend the use of SD Baton Passing really. So,
Celebi @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
252 HP, 228 DEF, 30 SPA
-Grass Knot
-Recover
-Thunder Wave/Leech Seed
-HP Fire
This Celebi is better suited for taking physical hits. Also, Scizor will have a hard time trying to U-Turn since HP Fire can OHKO it.
Then for Latias, the question is do you want a CM set? If so,
Latias @ Life Orb/Leftovers
252 SPA, 252 SPE, 6 DEF
Timid Nature
-Dragon Pulse
-Surf
-Recover
-Calm Mind
This set has excellent coverage and it also helps with the electric problem that Jumpman sees, if you decide to go with DD Gyarados. Latias has a few advantages over Suicune. Yes, its physical defence isn't the best, but its special defence is quite high. It has some very useful resistances (lightning is the main one) and levitate, which means Spikes can't ruin your fun. Its quite simple to set up as well, only one CM should be enough really.

you might want to consider a DD gyarados in that role since it will fulfill both roles and has great coverage with waterfall/eq/ice fang

I suggest taking Salamence out for this. My suggested set is different to Jumpmans though.
Gyarados @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Jolly/Adamant Nature
252 ATK, 252 SPE, 6 DEF
-Dragon Dance
-Waterfall
-Stone Edge
-Bounce

This set is very dangerous. If you insist on using Salamence however, I recommend:
Salamence @ Life Orb
Naive Nature
148 ATK, 146 SPE, 216 SPA
-Draco Meteor
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Fire Blast
I know you have flamethrower, but the OHKO on Skarmory is worth it. Flamethrower is however a good choice regardless. This set aims to beat all base 100 neutral natured Speed Pokemon by 1 point (so Salamence can outspeed other Naughty Salamence) and still deal damage. I would recommend the use of Roost over Outrage, since the EV's are very biased towards Special Attack. However, Gyarados would be a better option imo. The addition of Latias means you have an additional resist to electric and you also keep the grass resist that Salamence had.

A very interesting team.

 

[joshe]

You should really change Heatran's nature to Naive, and give it Fire Blast over Flamethrower. With a Naive nature, you don't mess with your Attack stat meaning a much more powerful explosion compared to your current one. You also get to outspeed Adamant Gyarados after a Dragon Dance, allowing you to Explode on it in a pinch, as well as outspeeding base 130's and below so you can get that Jolteon with an Earthpower. Now with Fire Blast; you really need the extra power for it to do what you really want it to. With Fire Blast (and Naive for calcs) you will do (39.58% - 46.83%) to Naive/Naughty Salamence, a guaranteed 2HKO provided you have Stealth Rock up. If you get a Flash Fire boost, not much can escape a 2HKO or even OHKO, something Flamethrower will struggle upon doing.

Now, I really think you give Jolly Lucario a try for some reasons, one being: when you're already passing SD's around with Celebi to Lucario, speed would do a little better to help in aiding a possible sweep, letting you outspeed Pokemon that could possibly revenge kill you, for example other Jolly Lucario, Rash Classic MixMence, and even Jolly Mamoswine that think they can outspeed you. You also outspeed all non-scarfed Rotom-A, meaning teams that rely on Rotom and the aforementioned threats listed to stop Lucario in its tracks fall, then the rest of their team should fall. Also having +4 and +6, the extra little power you get from Adamant doesn't really matter in your OHKO's and 2HKO's you get. Granted if you feel you can't always pass a Swords Dance, then Adamant would be better to OHKO Swampert and Skarmory (with Stealth Rock) after a Swords Dance of your own. It's your choice really, as its more or less a matter of opinion of what you want Lucario to do.

The rest of the team looks pretty good with Gyarados over Salamence as Jumpman said, although you struggle against Electric-type moves (I'm like the 6th person to say that...) and Scarf Rotom-h can give you A LOT of trouble if your opponent can play right, checking and revenging Gyarados (163.14% - 192.15%, easy OHKO) and Lucario (Thunderbolt: 64.06% - 75.80%, and Overheat: 125.27% - 148.04%), as well as max SpA versions being able to 2HKO Heatran with Thunderbolt (43.96% - 52.01%, 2HKO with Stealth Rock), and Celebi (55.45% - 65.84%) getting hit hard by a Shadow Ball. Suicune (58.42% - 69.80%, 2HKO'd) and Aerodactyl (112.29% - 133.55%, easy OHKO) get hit hard by a Thunderbolt also.

Unfortunately, you can't do much about this without changing the core of your team, but you could give one thing a try and see how it works out. I'd like you to try Latias out again over Suicune, but as a CM Reflect (or possibly Roar) version. I'd go with 192 HP / 64 Def / 252 Spe, a Timid nature with the item Leftovers, and the moves: Calm Mind / Dragon Pulse / Recover / Reflect or Roar. Latias at the very least resists Electric-type moves, and serves as a very good check to Infernape and Starmie that can do some harm to your team also. With Latias resisting at least one of Rotom-h's moves (and your team resisting its others) your opponent will have a hard time trying to get Rotom-a to do its job, and you can play around it more effectively. With Reflect, you have a cushion against strong Pursuit users that Latias normally attracts, for example: Tyranitar and Scizor, letting you switch out or even set up if you feel like you can pull off a sweep. With the defensive EVs in HP, you can take on Life Orb Starmie much more effectively and getting Starmie out of the way can mean a lot to your team in terms of survivability. Reflect also can help your Celebi pass an extra Swords Dance if needed. The only thing you can possibly lose from this would be if you can't get a reflect and your opponent has Waterfall / Ice Fang / Dragon Dance / Earthquake Gyarados, which can do some damage before you can finally take it out. Just try it out and let me know how it goes.

Good Luck!

 

[zaaps1]

Thank you all! I'm really liking Gyarados! It's working really well. I'll give Latias another shot too, now that Gyara is on the team.