Rock Smash + Rock Smash

FMD

FMD

Several people have expressed displeasure with how this combo works, both mechanically and flavourfully, and I feel like this needs to be fixed. If you feel you have an idea of how to fix it, speak up. If you think the combo is fine the way it is, say why.

Obvious choices off the top of my head are:
  1. Remain as is.
  2. Remove Rock Smash + Rock Smash, but leave the rest of the combo intact. (See: Rock Throw)
  3. Change the combo list to something else. (Punching moves, Brick Break, Headbutt, etc. Be creative.)
 
Do we want to discuss Snore here as well, since it is a similar topic? If I see no answers over the weekend, I'll just edit the header to Voting and begin the process.
 
Hmm, I'm:
- In favor of leaving Rock Smash + Rock Smash as is.
- Interested in what could happen if we allow Ember and other moves with similar wording to take on that type of interpretation
 
Personally, Rock Smash + Rock Smash has always been one of my absolute favorite combos in this game. Obviously, I am inclined to leave it as is.

I have an alternate solution, though, for those of us who think it needs to be nerfed: add the following passage to the description.

New Line said:
"If Rock Smash is used in a same-move combination, its base energy cost is increased by five (5)."
Click to expand...

This sets the energy cost of Rock Smash + Rock Smash directly in line with any other 27 BAP same-move combination, and therefore works to balance it by making the combo function almost exactly as if you used a same-move combination of 12 BAP instead (minus the guaranteed -2 defense, of course).
 
I like the idea of adding an EN clause to Rock Smash, because I agree the above two in that Rock Smash should be kept as it is. I love using it on the very rare occasions in which I can. The EN clause would fix the main balance issue which is that Rock Smash is extremely efficient.

I also like having 27 BAP fighting combinations on all my gen 3 mons.
 
The original purpose for Ember, Rock Smash and co. is to provide a more EN-efficient different-move-combo. However, based on personal experience/observation, they seldom serve the purpose, as EN is usually a very expendable commodity compared to HP. I do not mind pushing the envelope further, ie allowing Ember^2, Rock Smash^2, and other same-move tech-combos to stack boosts, since:
  • Ember + Ember is 13.5 BAP, 17.5 minimum EN cost.
  • So is Thunder Shock.
  • Rock Smash is 27 BAP, 17.5 minimum EN cost.
Ember combo loses out on BAP to Flamethrower combo, for example, despite the double stacking. So yeah, Rock Smash combo is the only outlier, and it wouldn't be that difficult to balance.

* * * * * * *​

slate said:
What to do with tech combos?
a) Reword them to not stack boosts,
b) Reword Rock Smash only to cost 5 more base EN cost,
c) Do nothing.
Click to expand...

48-hour before I send the above into Voting. Next, Snore - what to do with it?
Snore's DAT description said:
The user snores loud enough to cause damage to the listening opponent. The harsh, startling noise may cause the opponent to flinch. Snore can be combined with Chatter, Echoed Voice, Hyper Voice, Metal Sound, Round, Screech, Snarl, Supersonic, and Uproar. When combined, the combination has 100% Accuracy and the BAP of Snore is doubled (x2). The user will remain Asleep through the cooldown of the combination, even if it would have been awakened by damage. If the user is not Asleep, this move fails. This move is unaffected by opposing Substitutes.
Click to expand...
  1. Do we want to rework Snore so that it techs combos with all sound-based moves?
    1. If yes, do we want Snore to stack upon itself in a same-move combo?
    2. If no, which moves do you think should be included/excluded from the tech list?
Let's keep this going, folks! Just a little more until we get to Fur Coat and Fluffy!
 
For Snore, I'd like it to get a boost when combined with any other sound move, but have the bonus applied to the combo rather than the combining move.
 
Very late to the party, but easiest solution to Rock Smash + Rock Smash: Make it so it only gets either the 1.5× Boost or a 2× Boost, but not both. This is what I did for Leafage ["the BAP of the entire combination is multiplied by 1.5× (Leafage + Leafage will only have its BAP mutiplied by 1.5×)"] and it seems very appropriate for Rock Smash + Rock Smash. Whether you want to make it have 18 BAP or 13.5 BAP, it's your choice.

Fixes the loophole, removes the need to raise the Energy Cost of the combinations (which I would argue is a very poor way to nerf something because you are going to only be using this once or twice at most and a flat increase isn't going to do much to fix the issue), and yeah.
 
IAR makes sense. Stacking the 1.5x multiplier would put Rock Smash consistent with Ember and co. I'll reword the slate to tack in IAR's suggestions, and send to Voting in 24 hours.
slate said:
What to do with tech combos?
a) Reword them to not stack boosts,
b) Reword Rock Smash only to cost 5 more base EN cost,
c) Reword Rock Smash to only stack the 1.5x multiplier,
d) Reword Rock Smash to only stack the 2x multiplier,
e) Do nothing.
Click to expand...

* * * * * * *​

Since we've seen little discussion to Snore other than what FMD said, I'm going to propose the following:
doubling Snore's BAP in combos said:
The user snores loud enough to cause damage to the listening opponent. The harsh, startling noise may cause the opponent to flinch. Snore can be combined with all other sound-based moves. When combined with a sound-based move other than Snore itself, the combination has 100% Accuracy and the BAP of Snore is doubled (x2). The user will remain Asleep through the cooldown of the combination, even if it would have been awakened by damage. If the user is not Asleep, this move fails. This move is unaffected by opposing Substitutes.
Click to expand...
in addition to what FMD said:
Multiplier on overall Snore combo BAP said:
The user snores loud enough to cause damage to the listening opponent. The harsh, startling noise may cause the opponent to flinch. Snore can be combined with all other sound-based moves. When combined with a sound-based move other than Snore itself, the combination has 100% Accuracy and the BAP of the entire combination is multiplied. The user will remain Asleep through the cooldown of the combination, even if it would have been awakened by damage. If the user is not Asleep, this move fails. This move is unaffected by opposing Substitutes.
Click to expand...
as well as:
Multiplier on combined move said:
The user snores loud enough to cause damage to the listening opponent. The harsh, startling noise may cause the opponent to flinch. Snore can be combined with all other sound-based moves. When combined with a sound-based move other than Snore itself, the combination has 100% Accuracy and the BAP of the combined move is multiplied by one and a half (1.5x). The user will remain Asleep through the cooldown of the combination, even if it would have been awakened by damage. If the user is not Asleep, this move fails. This move is unaffected by opposing Substitutes.
Click to expand...
Personally I think the first quote tag is the surest route, as sound-based moves have a wide range of BAP (from Grass Whistle at no BAP to Boomburst at 14) and we are not radically changing Snore with it. If we were to go the second/third quote tag route, then Council will have to vote on the exact multiplier - just be aware that 2x for second quote tag has precedent in Gust and 1.5x for third has precedent in Ember and co. Yes I know precedent is not a good argument for anything at all.

Snoring questions:
  • Which quote-tag / multiplier will you stand for, and why?
 
I support the 3rd quote, simply because I feel like Combo-Tech effects should boost the move it's being combined with, not itself in anyway.

Also, for more reason to support it, I point to Fairy Wind, Ember, Rock Throw, and so forth, which all just boost the move that's being combined with it.
 
just be aware that 2x for second quote tag has precedent in Gust
Click to expand...
Gust affects no move above 8 BAP. Off the top of my head, Snore has Bug Buzz, Hyper Voice, and Boomburst. Round and Echoed Voice, too, but those don't really count.

Also, Snore is meant to combo both with damageless moves, Sing and such, and with moves with BAPs as high as 14, Boomburst. Any overall-modifier that makes the former worthwhile over Sleep Talk will make the latter too powerful. I say +5 BAP from doubling Snore and the ability to be used while asleep are more than enough to make the combo worthwhile, not to mention the Acc bonus for moves like Sing.

Also, could we maybe add in Yawn? It's not technically a sound move, but I feel like it should work here.
 
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