Announcement RU Stage 15 - Electric Zoo (Thundurus Suspect Test)

[feen]

blame cyanize for this
​

YAHALLO everyone,

The RU council has discussed the current state of the tier post drops and have decided to suspect test Thundurus!

Thundurus establishes itself as a top threat in the current metagame initially through its combination of coverage, power, and a great speed tier that sets it above numerous threats such as Gengar, Terrakion, and Mienshao that would otherwise abuse its middling bulk. Between its colorful coverage move pool consisting of Focus Blast, Knock Off, Grass Knot, and access to both Volt Switch and U-turn, it sets a demanding pace whenever it hits the field, as any foes risk taking massive damage or forfeiting momentum to its pivot moves. However, to make matters worse, it also comes equipped with a very powerful tool in Prankster Thunder Wave; this allows Thundurus to hugely threaten even powerful mons that outspeed it lest they be crippled with paralysis, and enables it to punish all manner of potential checks even further than its coverage moves allow. Combined with the ability to use Nasty Plot alongside lesser-seen moves such as Psychic and Tera Blast Flying, these traits all make Thundurus exceptionally difficult to handle and allow it to control the pace of any match whenever it gets sent out. However, not all is in Thundurus' favor; its wide selection of attacks is both a blessing and a curse, as it only has 4 move slots to pick from and can suffer against certain switch-ins like Wo-Chien, Hisuian Goodra, and Gastrodon based on the coverage it chooses. Thundurus also has relatively middling bulk and is extremely reliant on holding Heavy-Duty Boots to enable its pivoting prowess, as its weakness to Stealth Rock can leave it even more prone to being knocked out easily. This means it must be carefully maneuvered to make the most of its strength given the prevalence of Knock Off in the metagame. Finally, Prankster Thunder Wave can be seen as a good influence on the meta, allowing more balance-based teams a means to shut down a wide swath of overbearing offensive threats or force them into specific item slots and Tera choices to circumvent the threat of priority paralysis, which could be viewed as a balancing factor for the tier.

Suspect information:

• All games must be played on the Pokémon Showdown! RU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "RUT2 (nickname)”. For example, RUT2 ELECTRIC BOOGALOO or RUT2THETOP.
• You have to reach a COIL of 2800 in order to get reqs. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 7.
• Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokémon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• The suspect test will last for 14 days, ending on Thursday, Oct 17. 23:59 GMT -4

minimum games needed

GXE = Games Required
71 = 343
72 = 173
73 = 116
74 = 88
75 = 71
76 = 59
77 = 51
78 = 45
79 = 41
80 = 37
81 = 34
82 = 31
83 = 29
84 = 27
85 = 25

/!\ NOTICE /!\ RU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a certain way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, and publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. For more query, feel free to DM me or TheFranklin.

 

[fluff!!]

Overall, I like Thundurus's presence in the tier.

Thundurus is an important part of the offense ecosystem thanks to its ability to make consistent progress by Knocking boots and leftovers from defensive mons while pressuring Slowbro thanks to its Electric STAB. Because Electric and Grass types are very rare in RU (only other viable Electric is Magnezone, only viable Grasses are Chesnaught, Amoonguss and Wo-Chien), it is a great pick to deal with the many difficult to break Waters in the tier, ranging from Slowbro, Volcanion, Quagsire, Empoleon, Suicune, and Vaporeon. Prankster Thunder Wave is an important tool available to offensive teams to slow down dangerous setup sweepers that could go out of hand very quickly. This great tool is balanced by the fact that Thundurus's middling bulk and rare resistances means it can get heavily chunked or outright OHKOed by the threats it aims to slow down, further compounded by the use of Lum Berry, Tera Electric, and the presence of viable Healing Wish users in Gardevoir and Jirachi that can heal the paralysis Thundurus sacrified itself for.

There are arguable negatives to Thundurus's presence however. Despite being a safe pivot with Volt Switch and Knock Off, and a Ground immunity, it is also great at pressuring many of its switchins thanks to its Grass and Fighting coverage, limiting the number of truly safe switchins. Its immunity to Ground and resistance to Steel and Fighting gives it a few chances to get in quite safely against some defensive pieces of the tier, mainly Hippowdon and Registeel, and Jirachi, mitigating the need of heavy support from its team. Finally, Thundurus is one of the main contributors to the Paralysis problem in RU, partnering with the likes of Slowbro, Jirachi, Stun Spore Amoonguss, Registeel and others, spreading paralysis on most of the opponent's team, heavily increasing the chances of a full paralysis happening on a crucial turn.


In my opinion, Thundurus is a fine high to top tier mon to have in the tier. Providing consistent progress making against lazy Slowbro fat archetypes is a great thing to bring, especially when you're one of the rare mons to be able to do it. Prankster T-wave is ultimately a positive for the tier, as setup sweepers getting out of hand is pretty much SV's signature, and having an actual good offensive mon have the tools to slow them down with a trade-off and reliable counterplay in Lum Berry and Tera Electric is perfectly healthy.

The two main points I would have to potentially advocate for a Thundurus ban would be the following:
- Paralysis in SV RU
- Nasty Plot sets in Webs

The first point has been contentious for a while since Jirachi dropped in RU, with Slowbro, Jirachi and Thundurus being both top tier mons and also elite paralysis spreaders. Naturally, banning one of the big three would decrease the presence of the move. However, Slowbro and Jirachi (and Registeel too for that matter) would be getting much better with Thundurus gone as he naturally does well against them, so I am not convinced that it would make that much of an impact when it comes to the paralysis issue.

As for the second point, it is all in all an unfortunate timing on the suspect test, as the best Webs setter in the game just dropped in the tier, naturally bringing a lof of spotlight on the archetype where NP Thundurus is best due to cancelling Choice Scarf from mons like Krook or Terrakion.

Which brings me to my next point: the suspect test came at a questionable time.

Not only did we see the best Webs setter in the game drop in RU, not only did we just get a new Nasty Plot attacker in Alolan Ninetales that pairs well with NP Thundurus, but maybe most importantly, Okidogi rose to UU, which means that Balance and fat builds were going to see major changes in their compositions.
All of this happened a mere 7 days ago, with not a single tournament game happening to even have a glimpse of what this new metagame would look like. This makes it extremely difficult to have an opinion on Thundurus's impact on the meta, as we just do not know what the metagame even is at this point. Maybe the shifts will make very little difference, maybe Okidogi's departure and Ribombee's webs will completely reshape the tier. Any guess is closer to theorymonning than meta obervation, which is not an ideal time to hold a Suspect test.
Webs peaking in popularity on ladder also has a huge impact on this suspect test. The meta has yet to find its footing to adapt to an archetype that was fringe at best before shifts, which is also the archetype where NP Thundurus happens to do great in. I fear this unfortunate turn of events might skew the view of many players who very rarely play the tier and happen to play to get reqs now, fighting webs HO after webs HO (because both ladder warriors and reqs accs will spam HO, as Arceus intended), before the meta can settle.

All in all, if I do find the energy and time to get reqs, I will be voting Do Not Ban.

 

[FlamPoke]

I wasn't really going to comment on this as I've been pretty vocal about how bad the recent suspects have been (Blastoise gone definitely fixed HO right guys?? Enam-T leaving surely made the tier better??) and I'm not really invested in the tier any more, but this suspect is just... really bad.

Thundurus has proven itself to be rather mediocre in SCL, going 2-4/2-2/3-3/2-4 thus far for a combined winrate of 9-13, or roughly 41%. On top of this, the meta just shifted probably dramatically with the three drops, all of whom enable HO further, and Okidogi gone. We've yet to see any actual games happen in any tournament setting with these drops, by the way... so, uh, what exactly has Thundurus done so far to warrant a ban? Is the anti-para crowd (many of whom don't even play the game LOL) really so loud that people decided to suspect a mon entirely based on theory crafting? Is a mon getting coverage moves like Focus Blast and Grass Knot really so inherently good, because if so Reuniclus doesn't have Prankster but can also be mad annoying to play against because it can do similar things with access to reliable recovery and set up!

All in all, I'm probably not gonna invest much time in pursuing reqs, but if I do it'll 100% be a no-brainer to vote dnb. Thundurus has yet to show up in a meaningful way in-game and the idea of "it can run multiple sets" has not actually done anything of note considering it, you know, hasn't really won a lot of games! If you're still loading AV Cyc as your primary Thundy check, you probably think Thundy is ban-worthy, fwiw.

Also, I know LBN is gonna love this, but does anyone want to wager the over/under on council reqs-getters? RU has averaged <2 council voters over the last four...

Blastoise suspect: feen, eifo, franklin, 3/9 council voted
Okidogi suspect: feen, eifo, 2/9 council voted
Enamorus suspect: feen, 1/9 council voted
Thundurus suspect: Feli, 1/9 council voted

 

[fluff!!]

I wasn't really going to comment on this as I've been pretty vocal about how bad the recent suspects have been (Blastoise gone definitely fixed HO right guys?? Enam-T leaving surely made the tier better??)

I'm unsure what point you're trying to make here.
Blastoise leaving made HO's winrate fall in lane with the rest of the meta, which means that it did solve the HO issue at the very least partially.
Whether Enam-T made the tier better or worse, I do not remember the impact its ban had right after it happened, but I have yet to have someone say they miss it...

Thundurus has proven itself to be rather mediocre in SCL, going 2-4/2-2/3-3/2-4 thus far for a combined winrate of 9-13, or roughly 41%.

Thundurus had 30 uses for a 20% use rate and a 60% win rate during week 1 of the world cup. Do not forget to check stats of other big tournaments happening right as we speak. The level of play in SCL is higher, yes, but it's also a very small sample size as well. A 40% win rate honestly doesn't mean much of anything...

so, uh, what exactly has Thundurus done so far to warrant a ban?

I'll be honest, I don't know either, but I'll get back to this in a bit

Is the anti-para crowd (many of whom don't even play the game LOL) really so loud that people decided to suspect a mon entirely based on theory crafting?

You probably could have worded that with a little less toxicity... This part translates to "if you think paralysis is a problem then git gud". There is a real debate to be had about paralysis, especially in SV RU.

Is a mon getting coverage moves like Focus Blast and Grass Knot really so inherently good, because if so Reuniclus doesn't have Prankster but can also be mad annoying to play against because it can do similar things with access to reliable recovery and set up!

Reuniclus can pull off the same Grass/Fighting coverage, but Reuniclus is not a base 111 speed Electric mon who is also immune to Ground and has access to STAB Volt Switch which Grounds can't switch into due to the Grass coverage. Come on, you know better.

Also, I know LBN is gonna love this, but does anyone want to wager the over/under on council reqs-getters? RU has averaged <2 council voters over the last four...

Blastoise suspect: feen, eifo, franklin, 3/9 council voted
Okidogi suspect: feen, eifo, 2/9 council voted
Enamorus suspect: feen, 1/9 council voted
Thundurus suspect: Feli, 1/9 council voted

I will 100% join you on this. I understand that you can know a lot about the tier without playing ladder basically at all, if you participate to every team tournament. You don't even have to play, if the teams you build for others have a 100% win rate. However, the playerbase can't know you're doing all that, and also, I have yet to see most, if not the entirety of the council type a single letter on the forum or suspect threads, or even the ps room. If you're not playing the game, not getting reqs for the suspects that are the one most impactful system of the tier, and not even saying a single word on the forum, then... I'm sorry but what are you doing here exactly? I do not want to come off as aggressive, but it is a genuine question that genuinely good people probably ask themselves sometimes. Reminds me of the VR council being completely inactive as far as a normal player interacting a bit with the community sees it, outside of casting a vote on the super secret vr council discord channel once in a while. The community would like to see their representatives partake publicly as least a bit in the tiering process, even if it's just 1 post explaining their thoughts on the ongoing suspect. We have a prime example of what confusion such "work in the shadows" creates.

This Thundurus suspect, as far as the general playerbase, and even many active users on all of the forum, discord, and ladder, comes out of literally nowhere. The only public post I've seen complain about Thundurus (outside of discord one-liners) is this post from Denial 6 days ago: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ober-shifts-327.3733547/page-14#post-10289115

This is the only instance of an argued stance someone has said publicly, and it's not even from a council member. Does having a world cup win mean you can decide on a whim of the next suspect? Because thanks to the completely nonexistent transparency from the council, it is the only way I can explain such a hasty decision.

Compare this to the Blastoise suspect that took MONTHS of lenghty posts on the forums and outcry on the Discord to happen...

 

[FlamPoke]

Alright I can't be bothered to quote reply to everything fluff!! but as we talked about...

Wanna use RUWC usage rates from qualifiers? Sure, this totally proves Thundy is broken... until you realize Krook and Hoodra had higher usage and better win rates. Slowbro also won a lot (people have wanted it banned for so long!), so did Talonflame, and Umbreon, and Vaporeon, all mons that fit on the same structures basically...

We can argue semantics all day but I think we, and a lot of the community likely, have an understanding that this suspect was practically unwarranted and decided by people who won't even respond or participate in it. People really just be saying stuff in private channels and then not participating in the community and then crying about it when things don't change...

 

[Denial]

I wasn't really going to comment on this as I've been pretty vocal about how bad the recent suspects have been (Blastoise gone definitely fixed HO right guys?? Enam-T leaving surely made the tier better??) and I'm not really invested in the tier any more, but this suspect is just... really bad.

Thundurus has proven itself to be rather mediocre in SCL, going 2-4/2-2/3-3/2-4 thus far for a combined winrate of 9-13, or roughly 41%. On top of this, the meta just shifted probably dramatically with the three drops, all of whom enable HO further, and Okidogi gone. We've yet to see any actual games happen in any tournament setting with these drops, by the way... so, uh, what exactly has Thundurus done so far to warrant a ban? Is the anti-para crowd (many of whom don't even play the game LOL) really so loud that people decided to suspect a mon entirely based on theory crafting? Is a mon getting coverage moves like Focus Blast and Grass Knot really so inherently good, because if so Reuniclus doesn't have Prankster but can also be mad annoying to play against because it can do similar things with access to reliable recovery and set up!

All in all, I'm probably not gonna invest much time in pursuing reqs, but if I do it'll 100% be a no-brainer to vote dnb. Thundurus has yet to show up in a meaningful way in-game and the idea of "it can run multiple sets" has not actually done anything of note considering it, you know, hasn't really won a lot of games! If you're still loading AV Cyc as your primary Thundy check, you probably think Thundy is ban-worthy, fwiw.

Also, I know LBN is gonna love this, but does anyone want to wager the over/under on council reqs-getters? RU has averaged <2 council voters over the last four...

Blastoise suspect: feen, eifo, franklin, 3/9 council voted
Okidogi suspect: feen, eifo, 2/9 council voted
Enamorus suspect: feen, 1/9 council voted
Thundurus suspect: Feli, 1/9 council voted

Im sorry but this post comes out as very ill intended rather than trying to add anything meaningfull to the suspect. Your SCL numbers dont really prove much of a point if not the fact that Thundurus is used by almost 6 people every week so far. If anything that proves more of a point no?

I already said all i had to say about Thundurus here:

Metagame Post in thread 'SV RU Metagame Discussion (April Shifts #403)'

Oct 1, 2024

Quick talk on the shifts before going on the main thing i want to talk about in this thread.


I personally was fine with Okidogi staying in the first place and its definetely too early to talk about the effects of it leaving are gonna bring to the tier. Realistically probably not many? I feel like balance is still gonna be hard to pull off and while Okidogi was a big reason as to why i still dont see it realistically be any good. We just lack the mons for that rather than finding the issue in threatning Pokemon.


Pretty likely bad, Ninetales already does the sun way...

• Denial

• 
• 
• 

so im not gonna repeat myself, but you dont really make an attempt on arguing with any points from the OP either. It has the coverage and other mons do sure, but you fail to point out everything else that makes Thundurus great.

I hope if another post comes at all from you it will be a post of actual substance rather than this poor attempt of gotchas on council (which by the way i agree, they should post and get reqs, but theres always better ways to ask for this)

 

[FlamPoke]

Im sorry but this post comes out as very ill intended rather than trying to add anything meaning to the suspect. Your SCL numbers dont really prove much of a point if not the fact that Thundurus is used by almost 6 people every week so far. If anything that proves more of a point no?

I already said all i had to say about Thundurus here:

Metagame Post in thread 'SV RU Metagame Discussion (April Shifts #403)'

Oct 1, 2024

Quick talk on the shifts before going on the main thing i want to talk about in this thread.


I personally was fine with Okidogi staying in the first place and its definetely too early to talk about the effects of it leaving are gonna bring to the tier. Realistically probably not many? I feel like balance is still gonna be hard to pull off and while Okidogi was a big reason as to why i still dont see it realistically be any good. We just lack the mons for that rather than finding the issue in threatning Pokemon.


Pretty likely bad, Ninetales already does the sun way...

• Denial

• 
• 
• 

so im not gonna repeat myself, but you dont really make an attempt on arguing with any points from the OP either. It has the coverage and other mons do sure, but you fail to point out everything else that makes Thundurus great.

I hope if another post comes at all from you it will be a post of actual substance rather than this poor attempt of gotchas on council (which by the way i agree, they should post and get reqs, but theres always better ways to ask for this)

I liked the premise of your original post and halfway agreed with many of the points you made, such as the restraint it hypothetically puts on you in the builder having to account for the coverage it can run while also being weary of just getting knock'd + turn'd on all game, but your post was quite literally the only real one even mentioning Thundurus as a potential issue in the meta and it's being suspected... out of nowhere? Right? Like drops just happened, no tour games occurred, nothing really had a chance to develop, it just dropped like, "hey nobody really had Thundurus on their radar but us (the council) and we're suspecting it now because... we need to have a suspect?". Thundurus doesn't have any exceptional showings in RUWC or SCL or Pentathalon to my knowledge and it being a higher usage mon is less indicative of some constraint it puts on you and more representative of laziness in the builder in my opinion. It's pretty simple to pilot Thundy teams generally and it can fit on basically any structure, but it isn't even remotely worth suspecting to me.

Yeah, I (and others) have talked about the lack of transparency and participation with the council, so my post was a jab at them to put it bluntly. If you look at the current members, some of them have not actually participated in a single RU suspect this entire generation. Isn't that kind of crazy? Like, literally, look at the entire slate of votes that have happened since gen 9 started.

Anyway, enough of (redacted), let's talk Thundurus. I don't really see how usage + winrate actually matters without context, so lets talk a bit about games (SCL is notable) that have occurred where it wasn't a Thundy mirror to see how it performed and how the opponent had to mitigate it in real-time.

rob vs elodin - elodin brought a Thundy with GKnot / Focus Blast / TWave / Volt into a really standard Umbreon balance on robs side. Thundy didn't really get to click TWave because of Umbreon, volted a few times, and missed a focus blast on the hoodra. Had almost no real impact in the game outside of being a pivot bot.

bihi vs feliburn - Feli fished a bit here against bihi, loading a really fat umbreon team. Umbreon again just blanked Thundurus and it had no real bearing on the game besides bihi clicking twave twice in a row which was pretty slick.

frank vs damien - Franklin loaded a really standard PaloKlefki SpikeStack and just completely owned damien (who got subbed so fair). Thundy clicked TWave once and died.

fogbound vs kushalos - fogbound loaded that funky chansey + feraligatr offense that just dominated a cacturne fish by kush. Thundurus volted a few times, only actually pivoting once, and just wasn't a factor against a really mediocre team.

abriel vs feliburn - abriel came back after missing week two and had the most standard six of all time against Feli, who loaded a dlc1 looking team. Thundy got a few good knocks and a focus blast but was otherwise just present for the game. This was definitely a "Feli was optimistic in the builder" week.

elodin vs xagvb - elodin loaded the crunchwraps HO from RUPL semis and comfortably managed a win against a weird SpikeStack with Thundy on streshs side. Thundy got to volt once against the Tera Dark Gatr but was a non factor.

elodin vs abriel - elodin brought a Mew offense vs a Thundy... balance / offense? It was a weird team on abriels side a bit and Thundy missed two Focus Blasts, giving abriel zero value (but hypothetically Focus Blast was still not doing much if they hit tbh).

feliburn vs fogbound - Feli cleaned up his teambuilding a bit against fogbound, who has loaded funky stuff that landed well. Thundy traded 75% for a para on vern before getting nuked by a rock slide on a predict, doing nothing but the para turn one.

So, uh, yeah, that's every SCL game thus far with one Thundy and it did basically zero in most games. If you want to talk about the mirrors we can but like it didn't warp any game in its favor so... idk. Thundy being suspected is bad.

 

[TheFranklin]

Let's start with the timing of this suspect test, that is questioned in the posts above. The majority of the council was in favor of a thundurus suspect before the shifts. Logically, you are not gonna hold a suspect test just before shifts happen as certain pokemon might drop right after that would make the result of said suspect no longer valid. Therefore we deliberately waited for the shifts to happen to see what we got. Other than the okidogi rise we all knew was coming, no pokemon dropped that will significantly impact thundurus'effectiveness. Hence the vast majority was quickly on board to move forward with this suspect.

Now on to why thundurus is suspect worthy. The combination of thunder wave, volt switch + great coverage makes thundurus the perfect enabler for offense. As no ground switches in safely to grass knot + focus blast coverage, it is extremely hard to deny volt switch except with aggresive pivoting. Going to a pokemon that takes the volt, gives the thundurus user a chance to bring in one of many excellent wall breakers this tier has. Furthermore, thunder wave can slow down any potential threat for offense and opens up opportunities to other members of the team to set up.

On the other side thundurus is also very good against HO and other offenses. It can blanket check a lot of set up pokemon, or scarf sweepers with t wave. The drops of webs, screens and sun has more match ups to flourish with its prankster t wave.

The impact of thundurus in SCL is also very clear to whoever follows it closely, and proves once again that winrate and usage stats do not tell the whole story.
If anything, you should take away that thundurus has a usage of 22/40 = 55%, which puts it at a clear first place in usage so far!

Spoiler

Obviously the SCL players and all the people that help them prep agree that bringing thundurus is the way to go. If you go deeper, you also find that thundurus very specifically gets teched for. Feliburn brought a kilowattrel to shut it down (even that only helped so much since he faced knock thundurus). Lime brought a tera ground okidogi, and thundurus is the prime thunder wave and volt switch user as fluff!! pointed out above so that was clearly made with thundurus in mind. Lastly we saw a scarf tera ground cloyster.

So no, I do not think this suspect comes out of the blue. Even if little talk has taken place on the forums, there has been plenty of discussion regarding thundurus in the RU discord, where most discussions take place.
However, I do agree that more forum activity (viability posts, state of the meta etc.) by council members would be a positive change.
Especially taking part in the suspect tests is something I would like more council members to do, and we will emphasize that in the council chat.

Lastly, there are some toxic and snarky comments in the posts above. Please stop that or refrain from posting here, otherwise your post will be deleted.
Criticism is good and welcome (like urging council members to engage more in suspects), but not in that way.

 

[Miyami~~~]

Got reqs over a pretty agonizing number of games and Thundy seems pretty fine. I kinda agree with the general consensus that this came pretty much out of nowhere and I think that the thread has been genuinely dead for nearly a week and not a single pro-ban post (or even more than one anti-ban post) kinda speaks to both the general apathy on this one from the playerbase and a lack of communication as to why this happened so far. This particular council also has a noticeable history of not participating in the suspects, which doesn't give me a lot of hope, but I know at least one of them is laddering as I write this so I'll try and be patient.

I think Thundy's annoying, but fine. I do think there's a real argument to be made about how much RNG the top mons of the tier provide thanks to status spreading and half of them winning the game off a single flinch, but even then thundy's ability to para something like a car after it speed boosts at least gives its hax spreading a more positive application than something like Yanmega. I know something probably has to give and maybe by voting DNB I'm part of the problem but if we're trying to lower the amount of hax in the tier I'd at least not like it to come at the expense of a genuinely good anti-offense mon with the pivot set. I also don't think the NP set is banworthy, even with the webs buff. There's a bunch of NP bots in the tier that win on webs, what makes thundy any different?

Lastly, while I am part of the majority of people questioning why thundy, I don't actually mind the idea of a thundy suspect. Suspects are essentially a referendum on a mon's continued presence in the tier and shouldn't be reserved just for the most obviously broken things. I think it falls apart in practice when the people responsible for deciding the suspects or changing the VR are basically no-shows on the forums. As FP mentioned... ever so tactfully, we haven't had even half of the council get reqs in a very long time, let alone post here explaining why they're going one way or another. VR rises and drops not coming with reasonings unless asked is pretty lame as well. Respectfully, defaulting to "use the discord" is pretty bad practice. Good luck finding any discussion older than a few days ago on it. I get that we're in a post-forum era now, but being able to actually find conversations you weren't there for days or even weeks later is kind of imperative for something like this. I shouldn't have to go searching through every post a council member has made in the discord, even if it is public, just to see what they think about the current suspect. Thanks.

 

[LBN]

Honestly, I think I lean more towards thundurus being fine. It's a fantastic pivot that can pretty much always do something in any given game. Knock/Twave and a practically unblockable volt switch unless your using sp def torterra which... lol. These are, without a doubt good qualities. But truthfully, I've never felt helpless vs Thundurus. I don't think teambuilding is pressured that much by its presence, usually something like, NP Thundy is checked naturally by various mons or worst case emergency tera. Stuff like H-Goodra, Scarf Krook, Umbreon to an extent, Wo-Chien, scarf Garde, Bisharp, Draco Noiverns and others are all capable of revenge killing NP Thundurus, and setting it up in the first place usually comes with a caveat attached to getting that off. This excludes stuff like Bike, Sp def Jirachi, and things like Flygon.

As for pivot thundurus, Its a mon that I wouldnt say has 4MSS, but it is left wanting some things its forced to leave behind at any point. Between Gknot/Volt/Tbolt/Knock/Focus Blast/Psychic/Twave, there's usually a hole in your coverage. Sure, Volt switch patches pretty much all of this up, but this assumes you have mons that can take what you just volted on. Forgoing grass knot for instance, can make hippowdon annoying. Sure, it cant hit you in most cases, but that sand chip will put you low quickly in a longer game. Dropping Tbolt leaves you relatively weak with your STAB, something mons like Slowbro can abuse by just, facetanking the volt and slacking it the same turn. Dropping knock loses you utility to support teammates who like a knocked Cyclizar, things like Basculegion or Specs Infernape. Psychic is primarily for amoonguss and chesnaught, the former pretty much stonewalls for life without that, and doesn't rlly care about Paras to boot.

Even HO has things to recourse against Thundurus. Torterra is the biggest one, innate Twave immunity and not weak to Gknot, while Oricorio-Pompom can also manage. Ignoring other stuff like Tera Ground on Revavroom (not just used for thundy, being able to ohko legion is big but thundy is the primary draw). Even things like Minior, has a degree of counterplay to prankster Twave before the shell is popped.

The way I see thundurus is a mon that will always put in a good amount of work, but will run out of jobs to do quite quickly. Sure, in theory you can knock/Twave an entire lineup and the mon lasts till the end, but thats very rarely what happens (atleast in my exp). It also kinda fails to OHKO alot safely, and while people begroan hax, Focus miss is as always a fucking shit move that WILL betray you in your time of need. It's also frail, it really can't stand up to strong attacks and is very liable to get dropped by alot of things with even just a bit of sand turns racked up. Uninvested Noivern Draco does like 60, and thats about the weakest "strong" attack in the tier.

I don't really know what I'll vote just yet, more than likely it's DNB but frankly I could be convinced to the contrary.

 

[EviGaro]

I was pretty adamant for this suspect - Not the only one, but I'll take it - and I think some of the no ban arguments are missing the mark.

- Yes, Twave against HO is easily outplayed, but it's also the most reactive role: I'm pretty big on this because to me mons are never really suspected when they are a response to major trends, and Twave Thundurus often feels like it is so, particularly when put on a team that fears the HO matchup. This to me, is a pretty bad usage of Thundurus IF what you want from the mon is the most threatening output possible. At that point, you have other prankster options that come built in with even better anti-ho tools. For example, Whimsicott has both encore and tailwind, which completely bodies most HO builds. Now I know I know, you're gonna say but EviGaro, you are washed, and bad, Whimsicott is a very niche mon and Thundurus is good! And like, yes, but it's a bit reductive to act as if the main criticism for Thundurus' place in the metagame comes from "waaah my Armarouge was +2 +2 +2 and got twaved waaaaah" because like no. Twave is still very good, I very much agree with the notion that it is part of why RU can be insanely obnoxious to play, but it's not really coming from an anti-ho argument. Because trust me, no one sane wants to buff HO right now.

- Pivot is crazy, and the idea that it has a 4MSS is wrong: Look I'm all for using 4MSS as an argument but it has a proper place. It's the result of a mon that can't quite do its job without dropping key moves and thus is never quite able to consistently pull it off. Thundurus isn't that, because it always has U-Turn or Volt Switch. That's all it needs. The onus is then on the opposite side to evaluate how exactly you play against that potential pivoting and it's where Thundurus thrive because frankly, it barely even matters. Cyclizar as a midground? Get twaved. Hippowdon? Grass Knot. Hoodra? Knock or Focus Miss. The fact that this mon will never have all these moves is not the point because it will always have enough on top of the actual pivoting. You're not actually preventing much playing against it. There's a reason why random tera grounds are so popular currently after all, because that's the only element that allows the player against Thundurus some sort of "reliable" control to prevent it from doing pivoting shenanigans.

- Nasty Plot is really really good: There's essentially very little that differentiates it from the Therian form that was banned previously, except a bit lower output offensively but at the same time a far better speed tier that allows it to outpace now popular threats. The set does have harder stops in general - Amoonguss handles the standard coverage just fine most of the time for example - but your typical standard team won't exactly be filled with answers to this while also packing enough speed to revenge. NP Thundurus isn't the best sweeper around, that's quite true. But it doesn't really need to because its answers tend to be more catchall mons that breaking through will help the Thundurus teammates immensely, and vice versa.

To me, it's the interplay between both roles that make Thundurus too much in the current state: Thundurus has too much going for it in the builder and in actual progress making for me to reliably state that it's "fine". For example, take Raikou's rising presence. It's a really really good check to NP Thundurus because it handles virtually every move fine defensively and pressures it offensively. That's great for a lot of teams! But then it gets knocked and then uturned on and oh look its the other uturn pivot coming in for more chip aaaaand your Raikou did absolutely nothing. Pivot and NP Thundurus being generally seen on different builds doesn't help either, because they ask for very different things of it AND you have to react very differently when you face it. Is it one of many breakers, one with excellent all around coverage? Or the best pivot in the tier bar none, with enough coverage to beat all your immediate measures? I don't think the tier would lose anything from removing it outside of a crutch that has next to zero drawbacks. People talked about its winrate, which is very meh when a mon has above 50% usage AND has been seen multiple times in mirror matches, but a mon like Thundurus being the most used in SCL, which is not a ground type, or hazards control, or a major choice user, is honestly a bit ridiculous and a testament to the hold it has on the metagame.

 

[shooting star]

If Thundurus-Therian is deemed broken (and rightfully so, pardon my vote back then), it is honestly only a matter of time before its Incarnate form is put on the chopping block since both of them sport the same bulk and moveset. If not for Volt Absorb, I would argue that Thundurus is more broken than its Therian counterpart due to its higher Speed stat, which means it does not even need Agility to outspeed base 105-110 mons. In addition, the drop in Sp. Atk is quite insignificant since the damage output by both forms is largely similar, e.g. Psychic 2HKO max Def Amoonguss and deals 40% minimum to Fezandipiti, Focus Blast 2HKO AV Cyclizar and OHKO Specs Goodra and Krookodile, Grass Knot obliterates the Grounds.

Speaking of coverage, the pro-ban arguments used for Thundy-T can be applied here as well. Yes there may be 4MSS, but that is not really relevant since Thundurus can choose what to lose to (but the opponent does not know yet on preview). As such, it is difficult to scout for its moveset and one wrong switch will immediately put you on the back foot. Others have already mentioned how our Grounds are simply not good at denying Volt Switch. This makes bringing in wallbreakers such as LO Mienshao incredibly easy, thereby making VoltTurn another obnoxious playstyle to fight against. I would argue that Thundurus promotes lazy building as it is too consistent at making progress by virtue of its impeccable coverage and offensive stats. Knock Off / Thunder Wave / Nasty Plot sets are also very viable and warrants different counterplay. It is why Thundurus is the most used mon in SCL right now, it has little opportunity cost and is easy to slap onto teams.

Thundurus being frail is also not really an issue since it is not meant to be taking hits like a tank in the first place. Thundy-T being frail does not stop it from being banned. But more importantly, its bulk is actually decent since offensive checks like Noivern and Scarf mons that come in to try and revenge-kill do not OHKO it from full (e.g. Draco Meteor Noivern and Shadow Ball Gengar), which means Thundurus can afford to paralyse it first or stomach one hit before returning damage. Compare its bulk to other frail wallbreakers like Hisuian Zoroark which dies to Draco Meteor Noivern from full. Lastly, part Flying type is a good defensive typing since it is immune to Ground-type moves and forces Hippowdon to run Stone Edge in order to not be deadweight.

With regards to tiering, I think that the choice of suspects throughout the generation are very reasonable. I don’t think council minutes are needed since it is a huge time commitment, but stronger players should try to find time to get reqs. I am sure that spending 2 hours on the ladder is doable and easier than preparing for a high-stakes tour game.

TLDR: I will vote to ban Thundurus.

 

[Sneakyplanner]

I'm not too involved in the tier right now and won't be getting reqs, but I just want to point out that the anti-ban arguments in here have almost exclusively talked about twave pivot Thundy while Evi and shooting star have actually talked about Nasty plot: the real busted set.
There have been times where I built a team thinking Rotom-heat is a great Thundurus answer that takes nothing from tbolt or grass knot and can't be exploited too hard by volt switch. But then they click the ! move as I switch in and then my 90% rotom gets KOed by a single focus blast.
If pivot with twave was the only set allowed, I would be Thundy's strongest soldier, but nasty plot is just so nasty. Amoonguss and Chesnaught are the only mons that can reliably defensively answer the level 1 set of tbolt/focus blast/grass knot, but they get absolutely owned by psychic (which is the real best second coverage move, you should be running it over grass knot), and when you add tera flying tera blast to the mix, your chances of winning drastic go down. There have been many times where I'm sitting in the team builder just thinking "I hope I don't face NP Thundurus, people don't seem to be running it even though it's so good." or "I guess I just have to play around it and hope I can out-offense them with my scarfer." Nasty plot was the reason that the other Thundy got banned, and I agree with shooting star and past precedent from last gen UU that if NP Thundy-t was a problem, then maybe Thundy-I is either just as good or better at that role.

I'm not sure how I would vote, and I am free from pokemon showdown for the moment and so won't be voting at all, but I would like to see some of the do not ban rhetoric when NP Thundy is actually taken into consideration.

 

[fluff!!]

I'm not too involved in the tier right now and won't be getting reqs, but I just want to point out that the anti-ban arguments in here have almost exclusively talked about twave pivot Thundy while Evi and shooting star have actually talked about Nasty plot: the real busted set.
There have been times where I built a team thinking Rotom-heat is a great Thundurus answer that takes nothing from tbolt or grass knot and can't be exploited too hard by volt switch. But then they click the ! move as I switch in and then my 90% rotom gets KOed by a single focus blast.
If pivot with twave was the only set allowed, I would be Thundy's strongest soldier, but nasty plot is just so nasty. Amoonguss and Chesnaught are the only mons that can reliably defensively answer the level 1 set of tbolt/focus blast/grass knot, but they get absolutely owned by psychic (which is the real best second coverage move, you should be running it over grass knot), and when you add tera flying tera blast to the mix, your chances of winning drastic go down. There have been many times where I'm sitting in the team builder just thinking "I hope I don't face NP Thundurus, people don't seem to be running it even though it's so good." or "I guess I just have to play around it and hope I can out-offense them with my scarfer." Nasty plot was the reason that the other Thundy got banned, and I agree with shooting star and past precedent from last gen UU that if NP Thundy-t was a problem, then maybe Thundy-I is either just as good or better at that role.

I'm not sure how I would vote, and I am free from pokemon showdown for the moment and so won't be voting at all, but I would like to see some of the do not ban rhetoric when NP Thundy is actually taken into consideration.

- Nasty Plot is really really good: There's essentially very little that differentiates it from the Therian form that was banned previously, except a bit lower output offensively but at the same time a far better speed tier that allows it to outpace now popular threats. The set does have harder stops in general - Amoonguss handles the standard coverage just fine most of the time for example - but your typical standard team won't exactly be filled with answers to this while also packing enough speed to revenge. NP Thundurus isn't the best sweeper around, that's quite true. But it doesn't really need to because its answers tend to be more catchall mons that breaking through will help the Thundurus teammates immensely, and vice versa.

Thundurus being frail is also not really an issue since it is not meant to be taking hits like a tank in the first place.

On Nasty Plot sets:

Finding setup opportunities is not the easiest task around when your limited bulk means that any hit is most likely enough to put you in range of the many, MANY Choice Scarf and big priority users to rk you, meaning that you will very rarely get more than a trade at best. Thundurus does not have the tools over NP mons have for safer setup, like NP Horoark's illusion, or Gengar's extremely pressuring Encore to find opportunities to get that Nasty Plot off in the first place. 111 base Speed does put you over a lot of offensive mons to hit them first, but still has to deal with many faster mons like Kilowattrel (actually great mon regardless of Thundurus), Raikou, Azelf, Barraskweda, who all outspeed and either promptly OHKOes or can tank any +2 hit (except Kilo unable to tank +2 Psychic), winning the interaction. Unlike its Therian part, it does not have the defensive value of Volt Absorb (which would actually make faster Electrics unable to threaten it greatly and made its Incarnate form unable to win 1v1), and the difference in Special Attack does make a sizable difference when fatter teams try to deal with it (as Sneaky mentioned, Rotom-H being able to tank +2 Focus Blast from Incarnate but not from Therian). Simply having Cyclizar + faster mon makes it incredibly difficult for NP Thundurus to do more than trading for Cyclizar, which imo trading your most valuable offensive pressure to the support mon is not worth it.

This is a lot of theory, so I went and checked SCL replays to see NP's usage. From all replays from the 4 first weeks, Thundurus has used Nasty Plot in game for a grand total of 0 times. Out of the 22 teams that brought Thundurus, 18 of them were confirmed to be pivot sets, and 4 of them did not reveal enough information to confirm whether it was NP or Pivot. So clearly, even the best players seem to agree that NP has clear flaws that make it not a favorable pick, and NP Thundurus is not as pressuring and overwhelming as theorized. I will agree that Thundurus's Pivot sets in and of itself lower NP usage since it promotes Offense builds (which is a good thing imo!) that naturally do well against NP, and maybe NP Thundurus's existence discourages fat in general, but again, having no actual high level replay showing NP destroying slower teams, I have to come to the conclusion that it's not banworthy.

- Pivot is crazy, and the idea that it has a 4MSS is wrong: Look I'm all for using 4MSS as an argument but it has a proper place. It's the result of a mon that can't quite do its job without dropping key moves and thus is never quite able to consistently pull it off. Thundurus isn't that, because it always has U-Turn or Volt Switch. That's all it needs. The onus is then on the opposite side to evaluate how exactly you play against that potential pivoting and it's where Thundurus thrive because frankly, it barely even matters. Cyclizar as a midground? Get twaved. Hippowdon? Grass Knot. Hoodra? Knock or Focus Miss. The fact that this mon will never have all these moves is not the point because it will always have enough on top of the actual pivoting. You're not actually preventing much playing against it. There's a reason why random tera grounds are so popular currently after all, because that's the only element that allows the player against Thundurus some sort of "reliable" control to prevent it from doing pivoting shenanigans.

Pivot Thundurus and MSS is a complicated question. Because Pivot Thundurus has no way of boosting its SpA and does good damage (suggesting otherwise would be silly) but not over the top damage either, it is not out of the question to try and scout its set. Naturally, it spamming safe buttons in Volt Switch and Knock Off make it easier to hide its 4th slot until the right moment, but the fact that Cyclizar alone does a great job at scouting efficiently already helps most teams in not getting pranked by a random 4th slot means that 4MSS does actually become a problem. 4MSS is already much more visible on NP sets that actually make scouting a much more risky prospect, but it has the issues mentioned above.

To me, it's the interplay between both roles that make Thundurus too much in the current state: Thundurus has too much going for it in the builder and in actual progress making for me to reliably state that it's "fine". For example, take Raikou's rising presence. It's a really really good check to NP Thundurus because it handles virtually every move fine defensively and pressures it offensively. That's great for a lot of teams! But then it gets knocked and then uturned on and oh look its the other uturn pivot coming in for more chip aaaaand your Raikou did absolutely nothing. Pivot and NP Thundurus being generally seen on different builds doesn't help either, because they ask for very different things of it AND you have to react very differently when you face it. Is it one of many breakers, one with excellent all around coverage? Or the best pivot in the tier bar none, with enough coverage to beat all your immediate measures? I don't think the tier would lose anything from removing it outside of a crutch that has next to zero drawbacks. People talked about its winrate, which is very meh when a mon has above 50% usage AND has been seen multiple times in mirror matches, but a mon like Thundurus being the most used in SCL, which is not a ground type, or hazards control, or a major choice user, is honestly a bit ridiculous and a testament to the hold it has on the metagame.

Suggesting that Raikou is a bad Thundurus check because it can pivot around is a it silly imo. Raikou does a fantastic job at safely answering the question of whether Thundurus is NP or Pivot. It's not the only mon doing that too, with Cyclizar and Kilowattrel mainly doing similarly well at safely answering that question.

I don't think the tier would lose anything from removing it outside of a crutch that has next to zero drawbacks.

The tier would lose a great pivot that can pressure defensive cores better than any other of our special pivots and brings Prankster Thunder Wave against the HO RU is infamously known for. I like everything Thundurus brings to the table and want to keep it. Also, nothing is irreplaceable in the tier currently outside of maybe Cyclizar but it's theorymonning territory. Ban a fighting breaker, we have 8 others ready to take its place. Ban Hippowdon, its place in the meta has been contested for several months now and would make the tier run less passive walls. You get my point. Banning stuff just because "the tier would lose nothing" is wrong and silly.

 

[EviGaro]

Banning stuff just because "the tier would lose nothing" is wrong and silly.

If that was my whole point, it would be. Considering you spent multiple paragraphs trying to prove me wrong, I assume you somehow somewhere know this. So, why say something this "silly"?

 

[seed]

The problem with most of Thundurus's "answers" is that they either a) get screwed over for the rest of the game by Prankster Thunder Wave/Knock (Cyclizar, most scarfers, Kilo); b) have to play guessing games with its coverage (Ground types, Dark types, Chesnaught, Amoonguss); or c) are just inferior versions of pivot Thundy itself (Kilo, Raikou). The existential fear of Focus Blast and Grass Knot makes it really hard for Ground types to deny Thundy's ability to spread paralysis and pivot out, thereby enabling its teammates. Clearly there are very few downsides to running it on a team which is evidenced by it being #1 in usage in SCL. It's become a crutch mon for a lot of teams, and I don't really like how the tier has started to run Tera Ground on random stuff and other niche techs solely to respond to Thundurus... that suggests to me it's starting to warp the tier around itself.

NP sets are definitely viable, but to date I haven't seen them pop off the way some folks have described above. To me the pivot set is worthy enough of a suspect.

 

[feen]

Voting is up

 

[THE_CHUNGLER]

I was still deciding what to vote this morning, so I took a look at the scl replays to see thundurus at the highest level again. Honestly, I’m going to vote ban on this thing for being cringe. The amount of times a player stays in with their thundurus and just clicks twave, even on faster mons like Noivern and bike, able to fish for a para in the best case and trade some health in the worst case, makes many of these games revolve around who’s mon that thundy paralyzed won’t get to move. The thundurus that stayed in and twaved a Noivern while taking 75% from draco didn’t end up doing much besides this, but a para on these turns can be so game changing as thundy gets to get out scott free with a para+volt chip. There were also many games where thundy just got called out and died without doing much, and I still stand by that it’s not a godly unblockable pivot.

Many of our grounds like hippo, flygon, gligar, and gastrodon and can come in on volt and threaten it out without getting ohko’d (there was an scl game where spdef helmet gastro ate multiple grass knots while just clicking recovery on thundy to stay healthy),

The arguments that thundurus twave isn’t even that good over a coverage move is definitely not holding true based on these scl games, twave is just one of thundurus‘ best progress making tools vs every play style, so most thundurus don’t drop it.

The other extremely cringe thing about thundurus is just how many times players need to click focus blast to break past the mon in front of it, leading to multiple focus blasts being relied on to win games. Games coming down to who hits focus blasts is supremely uninteresting to me. The game where I believe abriel clicks 3 focus blasts and misses all 3 while goodra clicks 2 Draco’s and misses them on the same turns was frankly hilarious but not what I want to see on RU’s biggest stage.

I worry about quite a few mons that will be significantly better after thundurus leaves to be honest. Volcanion is so incredibly hard to trade with already, and at least threatening to volt on it gives it a good splashable punish for coming on the field. Yanmega will also be even more supremely obnoxious after thundurus leaves, as thundy is probably the number 1 mon on offense that resists buzz and air slash, while yanmega can’t tera ground if it wants to hit it with stronger normal tera blast. I also think stall/extremely obese playstyles will only get better with thundy leaving, and they’ll be all the more appealing as HO is able to free up tera types on some of their mons as they don’t need to cover prankster twave as much. Thundurus was one of the most splashable safeguards in bulky offense against stall, as it is the best mon to knock off chansey in the tier while being able to come in multiple times per game as long as you keep boots. There are other good boots stall breakers like taunt fang Noivern, but none could so easily keep up momentum against stall as thundy. And anyone arguing this is a good thing, stall has seen tournament success even with okidogi in the tier, it’s still a great fish option that only takes a few misplays to beat more balanced teams long term. I don’t think it will really be a problem per se, but we keep removing the most consistent splashable options to deal with a style that’s already a solid fish.

Anyways I’m going to vote ban and hope that this allows more meta exploration (every SCL player I have seen speak on thundy hates this thing, so I have to hope this will improve the team diversity we see there) and puts fewer games up to para dice roles, though I don’t think anyone is too optimistic on that front.