Metagame RU Stage 8: Dancing on my own (Lilligant-Hisui Suspect Test)

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EviGaro

is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
RU Leader
:lilligant-hisui: :lilligant-hisui: :lilligant-hisui:

Welcome to our first suspect test in... a while! Lilligant-Hisui was very recently the subject of a quickban vote from the RU Council, and only barely survived, with one vote keeping it RU. Therefore, we judge it appropriate for it to be suspected immediately.

Lilligant-H was until recently banned from UU, dropping alongside others with the inevitable power creep gifted to us by the DLCs. And so far, it's mostly done what it used to above. As a threat, Lilligant-H is, at first glance, extremely linear. Its movepool is fairly bare, heavily relying on its good but awkward stab combo alongside sometimes Ice Spinner, but more often Tera Blast, and more on that in a bit. What makes it cause so much ptsd to any long term RU player is the two traits we have been very familiar with: Victory Dance being essentially the same as Quiver Dance but boosting physical stats instead of specials, and Hustle boosting its power even further. But those would admittedly, probably still be ok if it was not for tera options. Because Lilligant-H, in its very short time in the tier, has shown way too many options there and it makes its supposed predictability far harder to handle. Tera Rock is fairly formidable offensively, pairing nicely with grass/fighting coverage, and has some defensive utility due to a flying resist. Tera Electric works similarly but also prevents twaves. Tera Fire allows you to boost further on Talonflame - the premier check to it that dropped at the same time - as unlike with rock you don't actually fear a burn. Tera Ground hits poisons way harder than anything else. Tera Steel and Tera Fairy are other good defensive options, though less good offensively and so you get a bit less from tera blast, but Tera Steel comes with the added bonus of preventing Fezandipiti shenanigans. Finally, this is a lesser point but with sun getting a boost from Ninetales dropping, Lilligant-H also established itself as a premier sun sweeper, with access to Chlorophyll boosting its speed higher than pretty much the entire tier. While it does lose a bit of power that way, Solar Blade's bp over Leaf Blade compensates for this, with Tera Blast Fire also getting a boost from the weather. For the ban sentiment, Lilligant-H just gets way too many options from Tera for a mon that already has excellent offensive stab moves and an even sillier setup move. In high stakes games, this lead to incredible variance on a mon that then does not need consistency at all, similarly to how Moltres-Galar dominated the one week it was allowed in SCL, as it had similar issues yet did not particularly cared about them in that context.

And yet, despite the ridiculous setup move and the multiple guessing games that comes with its tera options, Lilligant-H was not quickbanned. The others can feel free to add to why they voted that way, but I thought long and hard about my own vote on that one for a few reasons. First, Hustle is not a good ability. Yeah, I know, it does more damage. But missing safe moves is brutal, and Lilligant-H simply does not have the bulk to setup AND miss moves, even with a good defensive tera. This makes Wide Lens an almost must on it, despite still being somewhat unreliable, and that then makes hazards very annoying, or a bad scald, or just lacking the chance to have more power with a life orb or muscle band. Secondly, it's a hustle mon with very bad coverage. If you compare it to RU Favourite Durant, Durant could afford to run multiple sets and fit multiple archetypes with them, because it had really good coverage outside of its stabs - and in gen 8 First Impression for NO REASON - which allowed it to have more roles than simply setting up. But Lilligant-H has no real reason to run CB, because its stabs are very middling. You can run Healing Wish on Scarf, but that would realistically never be considered broken as a set, and an unreliable scarfer is a pain for multiple reasons. So it's mostly stuck with Victory Dance + tera, and that last part is, imo, very important. Lilligant-H fits way more on hyper offence teams that allow it to tera fairly regularly, because without it it runs a high risk of being extremely useless. For example, if you tera something else and the opponent still has a bulky poison, or the ability to tera a bulky water into poison, your sweeper is terrible. This is also somewhat true if you have the wrong tera for a matchup, but that always has more potential to be outplayed by the Lilligant-H user. So you can reasonably argue that Lilligant-H crosses the line from being tera reliant to flatout tera dependent, and whether or not that is enough to make it stay RU is up to you.

Anyway, if there's more to it, let us know in the comment section, but I was trying to bring a more balanced view of the issues surrounding that mon. So up to the community now! Tagging Kris and Marty to announce it on the RU ladder, thank you both!

GXEminimum games
7850
78.249
78.448
78.647
78.846
7945
79.244
79.443
79.642
79.841
8040
80.239
80.438
80.637
80.836
8135
81.234
81.433
81.632
81.831
8230

Suspect information:
  • There will be no draws allowed for any potential qualifiers. If you qualify with draws, your suspect requirements will not count, and you will not be allowed to vote. There is no way to actively enforce ties to prevent abuse, so they will be disallowed. Use stall at your own risk.
  • All games must be played on the Pokémon Showdown! RU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "RUL2 (nickname)”. For example, RUL2 Durant2 or RUL2 STOPMISSING.
  • Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokémon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
  • The suspect test will last for two weeks, ending on Thursday, November 16th. 9:59pm - 5
/!\ NOTICE /!\ RU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. For more query, feel free to PM me or Feliburn .
 
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got rly unlucky with some games but still carved out reqs
team i used (with nicknames), shoutouts to Madinina (idk ur smogon name) for recommending krook and air balloon luke
Anyway did not see H-Liligant much outside of the low ladder, but I still think it's really crunk. Most non-HO teams struggle against it; while Talonflame is an alright answer to it I feel like Tera Rock is underexplored and can send Talon packing, and even then having to run Talonflame on every team isn't fun. While some physical walls can beat it with Tera (i.e. Hippowdon and Slowbro), forcing a Tera (especially on a defensive mon) has its own issues and many teams that don't have Talon rely on that to beat it. Speaking of underexplored, I think H-Liligant can be devastating outside of sun with Victory Dance (stupid fuckin move) and Wide Lens + Hustle.
Lilligant-Hisui @ Wide Lens
Ability: Hustle
Tera Type: Fire / Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Victory Dance
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- Ice Spinner / Tera Blast

tl;dr tera unpredictability and ability to force teras itself pushes it over the edge, pls ban
 
:Lilligant-hisui:

Even though I don't think I'm gonna get reqs for this (work kicking my a$$ right now), I do wanna share some thoughts after laddering a bit and encountering this mon in the wild.

First, it does indeed hit incredibly hard ;-; even checks like defensive Talonflame take a good chunk from Close Combat, while having an excellent speed tier against more offensive teams.
Having 2 good abilities is also quite nice, though I'd rather have extra work than rely on Hustle boosted hits, even with a Wide Lens. It kinda reminds me of Durant in that sense, just with worse coverage options (I know there's tera blast, I'll get to that). Chlorophyll seems like the best of the 2, not just for sun teams, but as sun counterplay. Sun also allows you to use a stronger sun option in Solar Blade, being even stronger than Close Combat.
The ones I've faced were a variation of these 2 sets:

Lilligant-Hisui @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Victory Dance
- Solar Blade
- Close Combat
- Ice Spinner

Lilligant-Hisui @ Wide Lens
Ability: Hustle
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Victory Dance
- Solar Blade
- Close Combat
- Tera Blast

Now, the downsides, of which there are many:
First, your bulk is atrocious, specially since you're vulnerable to all forms of hazards and can't really run boots effectively. This means that you rely heavily on team support, which is not a deal breaker... if your moves always hit. And in sun, you want to abuse the most amount sun turns, so losing those on spinning/defogging means less chances to cut through the team.
Next, you're extremely straight forward. All your sets are gonna look the same, which means preparing for it is not that much of a hustle (heh). Relying on Tera for coverage also makes the predictability issue more glaring, and the ones you want to be using (Rock, STABs) are easily exploitable and vulnerable to priority, which is plentiful in the tier. You also don't have any priority of your own, meaning that you're forced out quite often against priority users after some residual damage.
Coming back to the Durant comparison, even though both are Hustle breakers with great speed Tiers, Durant's better typing and access to priority in First Impression made it much more versatile and threatening, something I feel Hilligant lacks. I still feel like Chlorophyll sets may push it over the edge, but (if I get reqs by a miracle) I'll be voting DNB.
 
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Rarelyme

Comfortably Numb
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First, your bulk is atrocious, specially since you're vulnerable to all forms of hazards and can't really run boots effectively. This means that you rely heavily on team support, which is not a deal breaker... if your moves always hit. And in sun, you want to abuse the most amount sun turns, so losing those on spinning/defogging means less chances to cut through the team.
Next, you're extremely straight forward. All your sets are gonna look the same, which means preparing for it is not that much of a hustle (heh). Relying on Tera for coverage also makes the predictability issue more glaring, and the ones you want to be using (Rock, STABs) are easily exploitable and vulnerable to priority, which is plentiful in the tier. You also don't have any priority of your own, meaning that you're forced out quite often against priority users after some residual damage.
Lilligant-Hisui is not weak to hazard, in fact you even resist Stealth Rocks and only take 6% on them. Taking Spikes and Tspikes doesn't mean you need team support for it, Lilligant-Hisui doesn't care if there are hazards and usually they will not stop you from setting up and do some damage.

I do not think it is easily predictable either. Hilligant can successfully run a few Tera types such as Rock like you mentioned but also Fire, Ground, Ghost and even Water. I have battled all of these at least twice on ladder and they can all fill a useful niche for Hilligant. This means that any team probably gets destroyed by one of them as they are not all realistically possible to cover. One slight change in Tera Blast's typing can turn out to be devastating even if the sets do look quite similar at first.

Nonetheless, I agree that priority if quite effective against it IF you managed to force it to Tera before that. This and defensive Tera are in my opinion the two most reliable ways to beat Hilligant as of now.
 
With such an offensively-oriented metagame rn with potent sweepers like Yanmega and Iron Jugulis lurking around on every other team I feel like Lilligant-Hisui is really just another setup reliant sweeper that can be played around with not much difficulty. While yes, there are very few defensive counters to this if you're not willing to spend your Tera, lilligant being so tera-reliant itself means that's usually a fair trade.

Its frailty is a huge factor for me - even after a set-up, mimi, lucario, arcanine and other priority users can revenge kill it without much difficulty, not even mentioning scarfers like Gardevoir. Although being mostly countered by offensive threats seems like an indication of being broken especially in higher tiers, there are a bunch of mons in RU rn that are nigh-uncounterable after a set-up - a couple examples are Maushold and Lycanroc-Dusk, which can deal insane damage even on a resist. As a result there are several anti-ho measures like trick, unaware, will-o-wisp and priority on every reasonably-built team and lilligant is just another one of those offensive engines that bulky teams have to play around and ho teams have to revenge-kill. While you might lose a mon or two to get rid of it, your opponent also has to play carefully so you're not just able to kill or cripple their lilligant while it's dancing.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that lilligant works best on sun teams, which is a detriment because even with protosynthesis sweepers sun is a pretty middling weather rn, and something I only ever see below 1300. The biggest reason is that almost all of its abusers besides lilligant have a relatively low base speed, which really doesn't work well in such an offensive meta. Slither Wing and Brute Bonnet can easily be threatened with a flying type and running fire types like typhlosion-h means that you'll usually also have to dedicate a slot to sr removal. You have to sacrifice quite a bit to run lilligant-hisui in sun, and taking it away will just remove one of the only truly viable sun abusers which I don't feel is necessary.

Verdict: DNB
 
got reqs with Bice's team, thanks for posting it only real hiccup was an iffy rain mu if they had basculegion

:lilligant-hisui:
honestly, this thing felt fine. 339 at +1 isn't unmanageably fast, and its coverage is pretty mediocre without tera. Sure, tera fixes it, but it also really wants that tera to patch up a pretty awful defensive typing. During ~100 games over a few alts, I only saw teras fire and rock, essentially picking between offensive coverage or not immediately dying to jugulis, but unlike certain other tera beneficiaries it has to pick between those two. Compare to something like Yanmega, which can do both with just tera ground due to how its other stabs line up, or Bisharp, which has good enough raw coverage that it can afford to use a purely defensive tera. Hilligant has to pick between the two for the most part. RU also has a lot of really strong poison types on the defensive side, most notably Fezandipiti and Overqwil, both of which it cannot beat without a specific tera type just for them, which leaves you vulnerable to getting espeeded or hurricaned because you aren't rock, and the cycle repeats. It can certainly do a lot, but tera is less a catch-all for it and more of an equivalent exchange. Offense also handles it quite well (even aside of Bice's team, Mimikyu + Jugulis + Maushold was a very common offensive core during my ladder run) since mimikyu's basically required and jugulis is super good there too. I'll be voting dnb here, I don't really see it as an outlier in terms of power.
 
I dont have the reqs to vote (yet, I only recently started playing Gen 9 and decided RU looked like a fun tier to get involved with).

Honestly, I dont see much Liligant-H even when Im spectating higher ELO games.

team i used (with nicknames), shoutouts to Madinina (idk ur smogon name) for recommending krook and air balloon luke
Anyway did not see H-Liligant much outside of the low ladder
tl;dr tera unpredictability and ability to force teras itself pushes it over the edge, pls ban
Have to admit Im confused by your conclusion. You barely saw Liligant outside low ladder, you went 30-4 without Liligant on your team yet you think its worthy of a ban?

I need to put in more hours and games, but my initial impression is that people don't run Liligant much compared to other things and honestly Yanmega has been more of a threat in general.
 

Corperate n

my bowels turned watery
is a Tiering Contributor
Hello, I'm here to argue for a ban of Lilligant.

I tilted off my first reqs attempt, but not before I put in a lot of games using lilli-h on an HO team. The specific set I was using was stabs + tera blast ghost. At +1, i found that almost the entire metagame is ohkod. Tera blast ghost in particular hits nearly the whole tier, and ghost also works very well as a defensive tera type. +1 252 Atk Hustle Tera Ghost Lilligant-Hisui Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Talonflame: 331-391 (92.2 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO was one of the more egregious calcs I found.

point is, it ohkos enough mons that a lot of teams cannot fit counterplay that isnt hope for a miss, and that is gonna lose you a lot of games when the odds of hitting are 88%.
 
I dont have the reqs to vote (yet, I only recently started playing Gen 9 and decided RU looked like a fun tier to get involved with).

Honestly, I dont see much Liligant-H even when Im spectating higher ELO games.


Have to admit Im confused by your conclusion. You barely saw Liligant outside low ladder, you went 30-4 without Liligant on your team yet you think its worthy of a ban?

I need to put in more hours and games, but my initial impression is that people don't run Liligant much compared to other things and honestly Yanmega has been more of a threat in general.
I probably should've added that the few games I saw H-Liligant in it was a massive threat thanks to Tera, and I've played more games and I am still convinced that H-Liligant is busted. Yes Sun is mid but even outside of Sun it still hits like a hydrogen bomb thanks to Hustle and priority doesn't help against it due to Victory Dance's Defense boost. Outside of Overqwil (who takes neutral damage from Close Combat) our Poison-types are not physically bulky enough to stand up to H-Liligant's onslaught and Slither Wing takes chunks from Tera Blast.
 
:Lilligant-hisui:

Even though I don't think I'm gonna get reqs for this (work kicking my a$$ right now), I do wanna share some thoughts after laddering a bit and encountering this mon in the wild.

First, it does indeed hit incredibly hard ;-; even checks like defensive Talonflame take a good chunk from Close Combat, while having an excellent speed tier against more offensive teams.
Having 2 good abilities is also quite nice, though I'd rather have extra work than rely on Hustle boosted hits, even with a Wide Lens. It kinda reminds me of Durant in that sense, just with worse coverage options (I know there's tera blast, I'll get to that). Chlorophyll seems like the best of the 2, not just for sun teams, but as sun counterplay. Sun also allows you to use a stronger sun option in Solar Blade, being even stronger than Close Combat.
The ones I've faced were a variation of these 2 sets:

Lilligant-Hisui @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Victory Dance
- Solar Blade
- Close Combat
- Ice Spinner

Lilligant-Hisui @ Wide Lens
Ability: Hustle
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Victory Dance
- Solar Blade
- Close Combat
- Tera Blast

Now, the downsides, of which there are many:
First, your bulk is atrocious, specially since you're vulnerable to all forms of hazards and can't really run boots effectively. This means that you rely heavily on team support, which is not a deal breaker... if your moves always hit. And in sun, you want to abuse the most amount sun turns, so losing those on spinning/defogging means less chances to cut through the team.
Next, you're extremely straight forward. All your sets are gonna look the same, which means preparing for it is not that much of a hustle (heh). Relying on Tera for coverage also makes the predictability issue more glaring, and the ones you want to be using (Rock, STABs) are easily exploitable and vulnerable to priority, which is plentiful in the tier. You also don't have any priority of your own, meaning that you're forced out quite often against priority users after some residual damage.
Coming back to the Durant comparison, even though both are Hustle breakers with great speed Tiers, Durant's better typing and access to priority in First Impression made it much more versatile and threatening, something I feel Hilligant lacks. I still feel like Chlorophyll sets may push it over the edge, but (if I get reqs by a miracle) I'll be voting DNB.

After playing a bit more and finding more Hilligants on the ladder, I want to correct some of the points I've made:

1. I underestimated the move variety this mon had, even outside Tera options. I've faced several Synthesis tera water Hilligant that act as an endgame condition, which requires a really different approach compared to the usual breaker set.
2. I've seen a lot more defensive tera options to ease setup, not relying on Tera Blast for breaking. This nullifies the "straight forward" argument I made here.
3. I underestimated the defensive value of Victory Dance. Given that most priority in the tier is currently physically based, after a couple of boosts you become quite hard to revenge kill, specially alongside a defensive tera type.

Idk if it's enough to convince me to ban it, but now I can really understand the pro ban side on the issue :smogonbird:
 
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In my opinion, it doesn't need to be banned, it's strong, yes, but it's not broken to be banned, so much so that there are other fast sweepers and several ways to stop it efficiently My vote: not banned.
1000001813.png


Wall for: chandelure, silther wing. lose: others hilligants, for iron jugulis mimikyu etc...
 
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