Shadow Sneak vs Night Slash, a Gallade discussion.

Ishi-Goturi

I was looking at Justin8649's Gallade analysis just now, and I noticed that Shadow Sneak did not get a mention, even in the responses. I suppose this is due to it's low power that doesn't receive STAB, but I have always used Shadow Sneak on my Gallade rather than Night Slash. It needs a Swords Dance to rack up a good amount of power, but I think Shadow Sneak's merit's outweigh Night Slash's. It allows you to get the jump on many fast Pokemon Close Combat wouldn't destroy: Alakazam, Azelf, CS Gengar, etc. By using Shadow Sneak instead of Night Slash, you can get in a free Swords Dance more easily rather than having to predict their switch in to Night Slash/Thunder Wave them. Thunder Waving an Alakazam with Synch would screw you over anyway, but unless you take it out with Night Slash on the switch-in, Alakazam is going to get in a free Shadow Ball on Gallade, which can hurt. Trying to Thunder Wave CS Gengar doesn't work too well either. I'm not sure about this, but CS max Speed Timid Gengar would still be pretty dern fast even if it's paralyzed, at least compared to Gallade. And if you mispredict and don't Night Slash Gengar on the switch, you pretty much have to pull Gallade out of there and sacrifice any Swords Dance you might've gotten in. Having a priority attack is a good way to take out weakened Choice Scarfers in general. Gallade doesn't like eating Azelf's Shadow Balls/Explosions either. With Shadow Sneak, you don't have to worry about any of this really. You could even do away with Thunder Wave altogether and have WoW instead as a way to mess up strong physical Pokemon that would KO Gallade, but you'll sacrifice SS's power if you don't have Swords Dance. Shadow Sneak is also a good way to take out other Gallades that could have more Speed EVs than you.

I believe one of the main reasons people put Night Slash on Gallade is for Dusknoir. However, a Shadow Sneak from max Atk Adamant Gallade after a SD 2HKOs Dusknoir, taking out somewhere close to 3/4's of it's HP. Gallade's Shadow Sneak outruns Dusknoir's Shadow Sneak anyway. The only real drawbacks I see from using SS over NS are that Normals are immune to it, it has less power, and it doesn't have the high crit rate. Most normals aren't going to switch in on something with Close Combat anyway, and the decreased power isn't going to matter so much against those key Pokemon I mentioned above, except Dusknoir. I might be overlooking something here, but it seems to me that Shadow Sneak should at least get a mention as a smart alternative to Night Slash on Gallade.
 
a Gallade with adamant and max atk with life orb after a sword dance can barely 2HKO a impish Dusknoir that has max HP and def, it will 3HKO it if dusk has leftovers or willOwisp.
 
9voltdude said:
a Gallade with adamant and max atk with life orb after a sword dance can barely 2HKO a impish Dusknoir that has max HP and def, it will 3HKO it if dusk has leftovers or willOwisp.
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But um, correct me if I'm wrong, Night Slash would 2HKO without a crit too. And I've never heard of anyone maxing Def on Dusknoir since that would leave it completely open to junk like Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, etc. That would also leave the Dusknoir with next to no attacking power other than Seismic Toss, so I don't think it's a very realistic measure for judging Shadow Sneak's usability, especially against crap like Gengar.
 
9voltdude said:
a Gallade with adamant and max atk with life orb after a sword dance can barely 2HKO a impish Dusknoir that has max HP and def, it will 3HKO it if dusk has leftovers or willOwisp.
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I thought that Dusknoir's were generally built around special defense, using WoW to nerf physical attackers.
 
Timid, cs gengar(who uses timid? >.<) gets 525 speed.
after the 1/4 cut from paralysis, it has 131 speed, which gallade easily outspeeds with it's 196 neutral- min.
Dusknoir will w-o-w gallade, then probably switch out to a normal pokemon that is faster, and can ohko gallade. Dusknoir still has that base 100 attack as well, even if it isn't boosted and shadow punches will hurt. I don't think swords dancing and using shadow sneak is the best idea, since a paralysis followed by a night slash is just as good, and your opponent will most likely not switch in azelf/gengar/zam, unless they are really gutsy. They would most likely go with some physical wall that can screw around with gallade, and something that won't necesarrily be weak to your attacks. I.E. weezing, since I assume you are running w-o-w swords dance, shadow sneak, and close combat. I'm not really a fan of swords dance gallade anyway though.
 
I use a Gallade on my team, and I've found that Shadow Sneak is by far superior to Night Slash. Not only for stuff like 'Zam with high speed and low defense, but anything that's already weakened.
 
lilwartz said:
Timid, cs gengar(who uses timid? >.<) gets 525 speed.
after the 1/4 cut from paralysis, it has 131 speed, which gallade easily outspeeds with it's 196 neutral- min.
Dusknoir will w-o-w gallade, then probably switch out to a normal pokemon that is faster, and can ohko gallade. Dusknoir still has that base 100 attack as well, even if it isn't boosted and shadow punches will hurt. I don't think swords dancing and using shadow sneak is the best idea, since a paralysis followed by a night slash is just as good, and your opponent will most likely not switch in azelf/gengar/zam, unless they are really gutsy. They would most likely go with some physical wall that can screw around with gallade, and something that won't necesarrily be weak to your attacks. I.E. weezing, since I assume you are running w-o-w swords dance, shadow sneak, and close combat. I'm not really a fan of swords dance gallade anyway though.
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Well, WoW was really just one option, but Weezing wouldn't switch in if you used Psycho Cut instead. Let's just say that Shadow Sneak and Swords Dance is a trade-off for Night Slash and Thunder Wave.

I guess my point is that using Shadow Sneak > Night Slash cuts down on having to outpredict your foe all the time, and it'll give you the option of SDing to boost all of your attacks rather than having to T-Wave everything. It might be a bit of a novelty, but the surprise factor is good and being able to take out weakened Yanmegas like that is satisfying.
 
Wow...I'm the only one here who uses Jolly+max Speed Gallade? It has a chance of outspeeding Adamant CB Heracross and OHKOing it (284 Speed and Psycho Cut does 94.70% - 111.59%). Gallade actually has base 80 Speed, the same a Medicham and Dragonite's.
 
I was sorta hoping nobody would mention Shadow Sneak, I kinda liked having it as my own personal moveset.

I run...

Gallade@ Life Orb
-Swords Dance
-Hypnosis
-Shadow Sneak
-Close Combat/Drain Punch

Fun set to run and it can really mess things up. Shadow Sneak + Close Combat hits EVERYTHING in the game for neutral at the very least. Drain Punch I occasionally use (I have two Gallade's) as it can provide a nice source of recovery with Swords Dance in effect and to conteract Life Orb.

Best thing about the set is it gets Super Effective on two of the top walls in the game and completely messes up speed reliant pokemon like Starmie.
 
I pridictaded this thread would come eventually! That's why you breed Gallade with a dusklops for Will-o-wisp, and shadow sneak!

Personally, I think that the stuff that can destroy gallade are easilly destroyed back with shadow sneak, unless there packing abnormally high defence IVs.
 
The Man... (tyke) said:
Personally, I think that the stuff that can destroy gallade are easilly destroyed back with shadow sneak, unless there packing abnormally high defence IVs.
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Huh?

Anyways, I am of the opinion that Shadow Sneak is definitely a handy move for things like Azelf, Alakazam, or Gengar. However, even if you do have Life Orb and 2+ Attack a under your belt, you cannot even guarantee a 2HKO on something like Cresselia, assuming it is running max HP and no Defense with a neutral nature, whereas it can Paralyze you with Thunder Wave or Reflect and Moonlight the damage away. So the usefulness of Shadow Sneak is rather situational in my opnion, as you cannot neccessarily break a wall like Dusknoir with it (does 51-59% SD to a 252 HP / 72 Def positive Dusknoir), which can then neutralize your threat
 
Personally, despite Gallade's low-ish speed I'd rather use Night Slash due to critical chance. Like mentioned previously by others, I believe that Shadow Sneak is more of a situational move and should only replace Night Slash if you lack another priority move on your team. The low BP means it won't be doing stellar damage, and in such a situation I would rather use the move with the higher critical chance and higher base damage, despite the loss of attacking first.
 
There's a lot of talk about Dusknoir messing this up, but if your opponent believes you have Night Slash, he would be hesitant to switch Dusknoir into it anyway.

Shadow Sneak can mess up severely weakened Garchomps. I've done that more than once.

And if Cresselia comes in in T-Waves you, Shadow Sneak still strikes first anyway, so it's not a total loss. It would still suck, though.
 
IMO alot of pokemon pull off the priority thing better, things with stab, and cb, including metagross or azumarill. I see where you are going with the dusknoir part, and i think this is a decent idea, even if a bit.. gimmicky. Lots of walls just seem to mess this up though(skarmory(who uses it anymore >.>), slowbro, weezing if you're planning on using w-o-w. gliscor, bulky gyara if you're not planning on using w-o-w, etc.
 
However the beauty of Gallade running Shadow Sneak is it can very easily reach a +4 thanks to its repotoire of status moves. Hypnosis already guarantees a +2, if it runs Shadow Sneak then it doesn't fear being outspeeded or paralysis and can afford to run a +4 after the switch.
 
Excuse me? Most opponents are going to try to kill Gallade outright, knowing it's double statusing nature. The majority of physical sweepers can do massive damage on Gallade, and will absolutely murder him if he is spending his time Swords Dancing so he can attempt to sweep with Shadow Sneak.
 
Electivilug said:
Excuse me? Most opponents are going to try to kill Gallade outright, knowing it's double statusing nature. The majority of physical sweepers can do massive damage on Gallade, and will absolutely murder him if he is spending his time Swords Dancing so he can attempt to sweep with Shadow Sneak.
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The majority of physical sweepers won't want to switch in and risk any of the 3 possible status moves. Not even Heracross wants to take a thunder wave. I always think things like this should be attempted later in the game when you know what your opponent is likely to switchin to you, obviously if Gyarados is what comes in you know to status not swords dance.

Infact i think Gallade has a better chance than most, Hypnosis the switchin then swords dance up. The second pokemon to come in is likely not to be as safe as the initial one. I think shadow sneak can work but like someone else said, i think i would only run it if my team lacked another priority move.

Also whoever said they run jolly and max speed, try using medicham, its better for the job.
 
You're not going to hurt crap using Shadow Sneak as a primary attack whether or not you're using Swords Dance. Leave Shadow Sneak users to the status/attack3x movesets, where I think you could replace Night Slash on the standard set (status/CC/Psycho Cut/Night Slash). You give up being able to significantly hurt Dusknoir, but you can kill Gengar/Azelf and get the general utility of a priority move (killing weakened pokemon, "1 HP" setups and whatnot). Replacing Psycho Cut with Swords Dance is just going to get you walled by anything even remotely sturdy that resists Fighting because a 40 BP attack with no STAB just doesn't scare a whole lot.
 
Well on the other hand you have Close Combat a 180BP attack covering your other end. Or if you run Drain Punch its actually rather viable for keeping you in the game since the Life Orb damage always comes last.
 
Foresty, then we're assuming Gallade only has one status move. It probably requires two in order for Shadow Sneak to work.
The problem with Thunder Waving Hera is that Shadow Sneak with one SD can't even 2HKO it, and two SD only barely allows it to 2HKO. Meanwhile, a Choice Scarf Heracross can slam Gallade with a 88% to 104% damage with guts activated. Choice Band seals the deal.
Edit: Forgot to factor in EVs for Gallade. Even so, a Gallade with two SD can't 1HKO Hera, which allows it to get slammed and 1HKOed by Hera, since I forgot to factor in EVs for him as well.
 
Electivilug said:
Foresty, then we're assuming Gallade only has one status move. It probably requires two in order for Shadow Sneak to work.
The problem with Thunder Waving Hera is that Shadow Sneak with one SD can't even 2HKO it, and two SD only barely allows it to 2HKO. Meanwhile, a Choice Scarf Heracross can slam Gallade with a 88% to 104% damage with guts activated. Choice Band seals the deal.
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The mere threat of there possibly being 2 status moves discorages a lot of things. Also why would you shadow sneak a paralysed heracross when you're faster anyway, NVE close combat still has higher base damage. Anyway, i think Mr. E is right, this is best with a set that has 3 attacks, a 40 base power move trying to cover what close combat can't kill just doesn't work, psycho cut and shawdow sneak and secondary moves seemes attractive though. Then just choose your most useful status move which will probably by hypnosis unless you have another sleeper on the team.
 
Mr.E said:
Replacing Psycho Cut with Swords Dance is just going to get you walled by anything even remotely sturdy that resists Fighting because a 40 BP attack with no STAB just doesn't scare a whole lot.
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I don't think replacing Psycho Cut with Swords Dance is worth using Shadow Sneak for. I don't really see why Thunder-Wave would be all that necessary if you have a priority move anyway. Plenty of other Pokemon can use Thunder-Wave. Most people who have a CS Heracross lead with it, so it's not like it would be too terribly hard to predict a switch in when Gallade comes out, giving you the chance to Psycho Cut it (you wouldn't be using Night Slash on Heracross, and Psycho Cut with KO it regardless if you had Swords Dance or not, so I don't see why this is too much of an issue). And if it comes in for a revenge kill, you're screwed over anyway no matter what you have.

I don't think anyone is advocating Shadow Sneak as one of Gallade's main forms of attacking. It would just be there as a bit of a surprise move that would be used about as often as Night Slash. I've always used Close Combat, Psycho Cut, Shadow Sneak, and Swords Dance. A status move over Swords Dance would probably be helpful, but I generally back this guy up with various TWavers and a Sleeper.

Electivilug said:
Foresty, then we're assuming Gallade only has one status move. It probably requires two in order for Shadow Sneak to work.
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Erm, but why would Gallade need two status attacks (if any) to use Shadow Sneak? You'd either have to leave out Swords Dance or Close Combat to fit in Shadow sneak, which is stupid and defeats the purpose of having Shadow Sneak anyway.
 
The general criticism with Swords Dance Gallade is that a wide variety of status moves is the biggest thing Gallade brings to the table compared to your typical heavy-hitter who does nothing but punch stuff in the face. A lot of pokemon can use a set similar to the above, whoop-de-doo. Medicham or any other number of off-type pokémon can simply attack and hurt stuff, status is sort of Gallade's schtick.

Leaving out Swords Dance doesn't defeat the purpose of Shadow Sneak. It has the usual uses of your typical priority move, killing low-health pokémon. Since it's Ghost-type and Gallade has pretty high Attack, it's also a cool surprise against the likes of Azelf/Gengar/Starmie or any number of other fast-but-frail pokémon weak to Ghost.

And yes, using Shadow Sneak on a two-attack Gallade is a terrible idea. Don't do it. A resisted Close Combat does more damage than a SE Shadow Sneak, such as on Cresselia (which walls you anyway, unless you have both SS AND Night Slash). You need that third attack.
 
ummm... the reason people use night slash on gallade is for cresselia mainly, cause otherwise gallade doesnt do too much to her. But, i guess gallade can use shadow sneak to suprise opponents well, but, cause gallade cant to much to cress otherwise (not sure how much shadow sneak would do to her tho). I guess if ur team has reliable answers to her, then shadow sneak is a vaible option. I would pefer night slash for that sole reason.
 
I actually believe the Elemental Punches are better than NIght Slash. I use gallade as an unexpected Gyarados counter. He dds on the switch, he uses taunt predicting wow or T wave and i kill it with Thunder Punch
 
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