Suspect Shared Power Suspect 6 - A Fantasy Harvest Moon

KaenSoul

KaenSoul

Darkrai EX Fiendsmith (mid range)
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:sv/trevenant:
Shared Power Council has decided to suspect test Harvest​

Since the ban of the strongest Unnerve user in Calyrex-Ice, Harvest has become a lot more popular once again, being used to give Pokémon reliable recovery when combined with Cheek Pouch, which allows these berry based teams to have endless recovery and become impossible to outgrind preventing other defensive and some balanced builds from breaking them. They also make use of stat boosting berries to turn unexpected Pokémon into set up sweepers preventing the team from becoming too passive, and utilize Sticky Hold to keep the berries safe, reducing the possible counter play you could have against them.

To fight back, the most effective way is to use the remaining Unnerve users, like Corviknight and Galvantula, as they prevent the use of Berries under most circumstances, but this promotes a very uncompetitive way to play as you are invalidating a whole strategy in a single team slot, which can be seen as match up fishing specially when you expect to find these teams on ladder. Hyper Offensive teams often have good match ups against Berry teams as they are most likely to OHKO the opposite Pokémon, ignoring their healing and set up capabilities, but it is not weird to see defensive abilities in Berry teams to avoid this from happening.

This suspect is to decide if Harvest should be banned or not.

Requirements:

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in Shared Power before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played Shared Power before the test, full stop.)
At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, Giagantic, Isaiah or a member of staff.
If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2900 with B=2. The deadline for getting requirements will be Monday, January 20th. Good luck to all!
 
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hello everyone the goat is here and i got reqs as soon as it went up as usual
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what do i think about harvest: harvest is a bit luck based because if u dont get the 50% on berry it sucks pretty badly but if u get it then its hard to break depending on how the team is built, im not sure if its broken per se but i dont like harvest so screw harvest thank u for coming to my ted talk
 
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Keep Harvest unbanned. Harvest teams already have to juggle between the multiple different abilities of Ripen, Gluttony, Cheek Pouch, Cud Chew, Fluffy, Vessel of Ruin, Levitate, Guard Dog, Dauntless Shield, Sticky Hold, and Flash Fire, which is extremely difficult because Harvest teams have to often sacrifice bulk for healing or vice versa.

The revival of Scrappy Guts teams easily destroys Trevenant, and in order to beat hard stall, Harvest teams are almost forced to run Knock Off for Heavy Duty Boots. Simple Taunt trappers, such as Heatran, can also pose massive issues for Harvest teams only using Houndstone.

Furthermore, I have been experimenting with Choice Scarfed Galvantula using Unnerve on my Deoxys team, and it has performed decently well as a check for offensive setup and a Webs setter.

Guts: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-2276409614
Stall: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-2276400478

Take action on Cheek Pouch or Cud Chew, not Harvest.
 
Also, low ladder is filled with Scrappy Guts spam again (hell), although this time Gurdurr has been overtaken by Quaquaval with Moxie. The rise in the usage of that funny little duck might increase Basculegion's usage, as it can resist both of Quaquaval's STABs.
 
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I finally qualify for a Shared Power suspect and it is the one I'm least passionate about XD

1 of the loses was due to hax but that's life, I do agree with Inky that to build the perfect harvest team you'd need at least 12 team slots. However I think harvest is still good with certain teams. Except for guts spam not as many teams are running knock which some players noticed and have dropped sticky hold from some harvest teams to slot in another support ability. When the matchup works harvest is strong while when is overwhelmed before it can get off the ground it is awful. I also understand Karma's sentiments although mines is a bit different because whenever I am testing funny gimmick teams I always face the some kind of harvest team that my team can't break through. I think the best way to run harvest is as a team of 5 (max) with a strong sweeper the reap the benefits. One of those being a mon I hate in a lot of OMs Zamazenta.

Either way I'm leaning to a restrict option if available, if not I'll be taking arguements for both sides into consideration before it is time to vote.
 
This thread is dead bruh

I'll be listing the abilities (and Pokemon if the ability is only really run on 1 Pokemon) commonly found on Harvest teams and their counters. Stats are taken from https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-12/gen9sharedpower-0.txt.

The Big 3:
Harvest, Cud Chew, and Cheek Pouch form the essential core for Harvest teams. Paired with Protect, these 3 abilities provide almost reliable recovery and berry generation.
Undoubtedly, the best user of Harvest is Trevenant. Having the best defensive typing out of all the Harvest Pokemon, being able to self-damage to activate berries and chip the opponent using Curse, and learning Knock Off are extremely valuable.
Harvest teams almost always lose to Unnerve. Please try out Scarf Galvantula if you have a spare teamslot. It is amazing for speed control even when the opponent isn't using berries.

Drought:
Speeds up Harvest and the only user is Groudon, but requires regular switching, which slightly hurts setup (stat-boosting berries) Harvest teams. However, not running this ability means that you can lose to bad luck.

Gluttony:
The best ability for setup Harvest teams. Only used by Muk-Alola, which has a great defensive typing. Not running this is not that harmful unless you are running setup Harvest teams.

Ripen:
Slightly worse version of Cud Chew. Flapple and Appletun also both suck.

Sticky Hold:
Prevents Knock Off and Bug Bite. Not running this means that you can lose some Pokemon to a Crawdaunt, a Decidueye-Hisui, or maybe a Lokix.
Pelipper can also use Knock Off for you Rain stall enjoyers.

Vessel of Ruin/Fluffy + Flash Fire:
If you don't run a defensive ability, you will lose to HO, so Fluffy is almost always needed unless you try to be greedy and go for more healing. Vessel of Ruin can be used to ensure you don't entirely lose to special HO.

Levitate:
Generic antihazard ability.

Guard Dog:
Slightly niche for Harvest setup teams for preventing phazing.

Dauntless Shield (Zamazenta):
The most terrifying variant of Harvest setup stall, due to Zamazenta's high speed, strong bulk, and quick setup options. Zamazenta uniquely thrives with Harvest teams due to Harvest being the only strategy that allows Zamazenta to stay in and stack Iron Defenses for Body Press.

FEAR Carbink:
Fell off, according to usage stats. Probably because there are too few teamslots to spare.

Analyzing my own claims:
Harvest, Cud Chew, and Cheek Pouch are almost always necessary for a Harvest team.
Harvest almost always loses against Unnerve.
If you don't run Fluffy nor Dauntless shield, you will basically lose to Guts HO because none of your Pokemon are faster than Zangoose, Quaquaval, Crawdaunt, etc. Also, good luck if they have Long Reach.
If you don't run Vessel of Ruin, you may lose to special HO, although that seems to be currently dead. People should try out Deoxys and Flutter Mane a bit more smh.
If you don't run Sticky Hold, you may lose to Knock Off.
If you don't run Gluttony, setup berries become more difficult and you will likely have to use your own setup moves.
If you don't run Guard Dog, setup progress can be eliminated by phazing.

What I am trying to prove is that, just like the entire Shared Power metagame, Harvest teams are just another matchup fish in the sea.
:woo:

What works against a Harvest team might not work against a different Harvest team, just like how there are a bajillion different types of Priority Guts spam teams still existing in the metagame.
Except that Unnerve can almost completely shut down berries while no single ability completely shuts down Guts Priority spam.
 
:zapdos:-:lycanroc-midnight:-:jirachi:-:zamazenta:-:houndstone:-:decidueye-hisui:
Got reqs a few days ago using this silly paraflinch team, but I held off on posting since I was still torn on how to vote even after the run. I'm glad we had a suspect. Several of my prior beliefs were challenged. The first was that Harvest isn't that good right now. The Educated Fool's success on the ladder proved me wrong. The second was that berry teams are passive. Gimlaf's resurrected berry squad proved me wrong again. The third was that even full berry teams aren't that annoying, and woo boy was I wrong about that one.

Something that neutral karma said resonated with me: Harvest undeniably has a luck element to it. The 50/50 per turn nature is annoying, and occasionally I did run into games that would go differently if the ability procced or not. Additionally, the mons that benefit from berries the most are wincons like Zamazenta and Ursaluna-BM that turn into crit-me-not sweepers. Unfortunately, the abilities that reduce the variance, like Cud Chew and Drought (and the Shell Armor I saw once), have a side effect of sending the annoyance factor through the roof. Where I'm landing, though, is that Harvest introduces a reasonable level of luck. The definition of "reasonable" here is nebulous, and I understand anyone whose appetite for RNG is smaller than mine. But backing up from a turn by turn view, an average of one berry proc per two turns is not that taxing to plan for. The grind-it-out nature of these teams means that games have plenty of turns for averages to take hold. Additionally, the offensive nature of the meta means that berry teams do assume the risk of crit OHKOs within these long games. Crits are RNG, but over time, they're expected. Not all counterplay is random, either: Knock Off, phazing, and Unaware stall bypass this luck debate entirely. Harvest teams can of course bring Sticky Hold or Guard Dog, but it's like Inky said, they can't bring everything. I've seen Sticky Hold with Guard Dog, and in my opinion that combination of donors creates too many holes for the rest of the team to cover well.

If Harvest was a neutral presence in the meta, I'd vote ban for those RNG reasons. However, my contention is that Harvest makes the meta better by serving as a credible fat presence that is not stall. This HO-infested meta is curiously not lacking for stall breakers. Crawdaunt, Zangoose, and Lilligant-H all lend breaking prowess to a team while also enhancing hyper offense. Berry teams force these HOs to make concessions towards beating non-passive bulk, like adding recovery or phazing. On the flip side, stall cannot stack itself against HO and must maintain traditional progress-making tools since passive damage alone is not going to cut it. I think that berry teams relax the requirements for building against HO and stall, allowing stuff like Zamazenta/Houndstone offense or Rain balance to gain viability. Finally, berry teams have some unique avenues for skillful play. Rotating through hazards to intentionally drop into berry zones, while simultaneously avoiding KO range, is a neat trick. This strategy adds a wrinkle to the hazard meta. Usually it's simple: you want hazards on your opponent's side and off of your own side. Against berries, though, you need to make the call of whether easing KOs is worth giving the opponent a reliable way to work into berry range. Manipulating berries to block Poltergeist or Knock Off adds another interesting facet.

In conclusion, I'll be voting Do Not Ban.
 

Vote options​

  • Ban Harvest (2/8 = 25.00%)
  • Do Not Ban Harvest (6/8 = 75.00%)

Harvest remains legal in Shared Power!

Thank you to all participants. If you have 10 tiering votes across multiple tiers and qualify for the Tiering Contributor badge as a result, you may PM me or another Tier Leader with the links to all of your votes.
 
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