Resource Simple Questions, Simple Answers

Isaiah

Here today, gone tomorrow
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Community Contributoris a Top Metagame Resource Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnus
This thread should be used for simple questions that need relatively simple answers. Those kinds of questions rarely lead to meaningful conversation. If you were considering posting in a thread to ask "What is a UM?" or making a new thread to ask "Why is [insert metagame here] not a UM?" I'd recommend asking those questions here instead. For simple questions related to Smogon ask here. For in-game help/info check the Orange Islands subforum. This section is for competitive discussion only.

When posting in this thread, please follow these guidelines:
  • Make sure your question is relevant to Unofficial Metagames.
  • Use the search feature to check if the question has been answered before.
  • Quote the question you are answering to help keep things organized.
  • Do not answer a question if you are unsure.
  • Your answers should contain at least a brief explanation, even if it was the simplest of questions.
Please make sure to read the FAQ below before asking your question. It may already be covered.
Q: What is a UM?
Any standard metagame that is not an official Smogon metagame. "Standard" just means it's playable on current gen cartridge games with legally obtainable teams.
Q: Can I submit a metagame to be a UM?
We are not accepting formal submissions at this time, but metagames can still be considered on a case-by-case basis. If you feel like you have such a proposal, DM me through Smogon or Discord (my discord name is medicham..
Q: Will ZU/AG be losing their tournament circuits?
Existing circuits are not going to be impacted other than having a seasonal count for both the general UM Circuit and the individual metagame circuits, respectively. Formalizing a hub for UMs is primarily to bring more attention to them and distinguish them from OMs, which is already a massive section as is. Another benefit is that success in the overall UM Circuit increases the chances that an UM can work towards having a ribbon circuit itself.
 
Last edited:
Could LGPE and BDSP become UMs in the future? As they are not part of the SS/SM circuit and are not included in SMPL/SSPL, that could possibly be a great opportunity for the LGPE and BDSP communities to have more visibility to be included in UMPL/UM Circuit, if of course they are fine with it
 
Could LGPE and BDSP become UMs in the future? As they are not part of the SS/SM circuit and are not included in SMPL/SSPL, that could possibly be a great opportunity for the LGPE and BDSP communities to have more visibility to be included in UMPL/UM Circuit, if of course they are fine with it
This was actually brought up in the planning phase of trying to establish UMs, and my understanding is that UMs will only include what's playable in mainline current gen games, which LGPE and BDSP aren't.
 
Since Isaiah stepped down as UM leader and Dhelmise can't be DM'd, I'm not sure who would right person to pitch this idea for a UM to. If this is not the place please let me know! Last year I submitted a similar OM but understandably got the feedback it doesn't really fit the mold for an OM, now I've spend some more time working out the idea and would like to suggest it as an unofficial metagame. I'll try to keep it short but have more details worked out if anyone is interested!

Level Playing Field

Premise:
Every Pokemon is given their own balanced maximum level to create a singles metagame where there are no Pokemon bans.

This metagame aims to have the least centralization possible by enforcing constant tiering action. Similar to random battles, depending on the win/loss ratio of a Pokemon their level is adjusted.

Why do we need this tier?:

  • The time of every Pokemon having a niche is long gone. There are plenty of examples of Pokemon who are simply outclassed in every way by another and therefore are only viable in lower tiers. And even those who do have a clear niche are often just too weak to make use of them.
  • Having hundreds instead of dozens of viable Pokemon to choose from allows for much greater teambuilding flexibility and creativity than any other tier.
  • There will be so many new team synergies that don't exist in any other tier. Maybe a Lanturn/Corviknight core will be great, maybe Koraidon and Victreebel will be good on the same sun team.
  • Everyone likes playing with their favorites, which would be easy in this tier.
  • In every format there are endless discussions and votes about bans, and in the end no-one is happy. This tier nerfs and buffs Pokemon objectively, so everyone will be happy right? :heart:

Tiering:
Because the tier likely won't be popular enough to have the huge datasets used for random battle tiering, changes won't be made monthly but continuous. Here's an example of how I imagine a tiering algorithm could work, depending on the popularity of the tier these numbers will have to be adjusted.

Code:
If average win/loss ratio of previous 20 games >= 75%, +/- 1 level
If average win/loss ratio of previous 30 games >= 67%, +/- 1 level
If average win/loss ratio of previous 50 games >= 60%, +/- 1 level
If average win/loss ratio of previous 100 games >= 55%, +/- 1 level


Wins/losses reset after every tiering action and of course only games above a certain rating are counted.

The downside of this system is that if someone ends up building a great team and keeps winning and climbing the ladder, gradually your team will get weaker. Being forced to rotate teams shouldn't be too big of an issue though in a metagame that encourages creative teambuilding. If it does end up being an issue it could possibly be a solution to set a limit per user for contributing to a pokemon's win/loss ratio. I.E. if the last 20 times Politoed was used are all by the same user, it only counts 10 of those games and takes 10 older games to calculate the win/loss ratio.

Starting levels:
Here's an example that combines random battle levels with Smogon tiers. This shouldn't be too important though as after the tier has existed for a while the tiering algorithm will have adjusted where necessary.

No bans:
Like previously stated I believe no Pokemon will have to be banned. But like most other tiers anti-competitive strategies like evasion/baton pass/kings rock will be banned. I can also imagine for example shadow tag/terra/shed tail bans, but this would be for the tier council to decide. So no Pokemon bans but other bans are fine.

To figure out:

  • An experienced community member to be the tier-leader and a council to help with decision making.
  • How to effectively communicate the latest level adjustments for teambuilding. (Maybe a button in the UM chatroom or prompt when validating a team?)
  • Speed tiers will be tough to figure out and constantly changing.
  • Programming.

Thanks for looking at my idea. I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on it and whether you think it'd work as an UM or not.
 
Since Isaiah stepped down as UM leader and Dhelmise can't be DM'd, I'm not sure who would right person to pitch this idea for a UM to. If this is not the place please let me know! Last year I submitted a similar OM but understandably got the feedback it doesn't really fit the mold for an OM, now I've spend some more time working out the idea and would like to suggest it as an unofficial metagame. I'll try to keep it short but have more details worked out if anyone is interested!

Level Playing Field

Premise:
Every Pokemon is given their own balanced maximum level to create a singles metagame where there are no Pokemon bans.

This metagame aims to have the least centralization possible by enforcing constant tiering action. Similar to random battles, depending on the win/loss ratio of a Pokemon their level is adjusted.

Why do we need this tier?:

  • The time of every Pokemon having a niche is long gone. There are plenty of examples of Pokemon who are simply outclassed in every way by another and therefore are only viable in lower tiers. And even those who do have a clear niche are often just too weak to make use of them.
  • Having hundreds instead of dozens of viable Pokemon to choose from allows for much greater teambuilding flexibility and creativity than any other tier.
  • There will be so many new team synergies that don't exist in any other tier. Maybe a Lanturn/Corviknight core will be great, maybe Koraidon and Victreebel will be good on the same sun team.
  • Everyone likes playing with their favorites, which would be easy in this tier.
  • In every format there are endless discussions and votes about bans, and in the end no-one is happy. This tier nerfs and buffs Pokemon objectively, so everyone will be happy right? :heart:

Tiering:
Because the tier likely won't be popular enough to have the huge datasets used for random battle tiering, changes won't be made monthly but continuous. Here's an example of how I imagine a tiering algorithm could work, depending on the popularity of the tier these numbers will have to be adjusted.

Code:
If average win/loss ratio of previous 20 games >= 75%, +/- 1 level
If average win/loss ratio of previous 30 games >= 67%, +/- 1 level
If average win/loss ratio of previous 50 games >= 60%, +/- 1 level
If average win/loss ratio of previous 100 games >= 55%, +/- 1 level


Wins/losses reset after every tiering action and of course only games above a certain rating are counted.

The downside of this system is that if someone ends up building a great team and keeps winning and climbing the ladder, gradually your team will get weaker. Being forced to rotate teams shouldn't be too big of an issue though in a metagame that encourages creative teambuilding. If it does end up being an issue it could possibly be a solution to set a limit per user for contributing to a pokemon's win/loss ratio. I.E. if the last 20 times Politoed was used are all by the same user, it only counts 10 of those games and takes 10 older games to calculate the win/loss ratio.

Starting levels:
Here's an example that combines random battle levels with Smogon tiers. This shouldn't be too important though as after the tier has existed for a while the tiering algorithm will have adjusted where necessary.

No bans:
Like previously stated I believe no Pokemon will have to be banned. But like most other tiers anti-competitive strategies like evasion/baton pass/kings rock will be banned. I can also imagine for example shadow tag/terra/shed tail bans, but this would be for the tier council to decide. So no Pokemon bans but other bans are fine.

To figure out:

  • An experienced community member to be the tier-leader and a council to help with decision making.
  • How to effectively communicate the latest level adjustments for teambuilding. (Maybe a button in the UM chatroom or prompt when validating a team?)
  • Speed tiers will be tough to figure out and constantly changing.
  • Programming.

Thanks for looking at my idea. I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on it and whether you think it'd work as an UM or not.
Hi there! The creation of a UM is not as simple as asking for it to be made, and there is no set-in-stone way for a format to be added to the UMs. I reached out to the Pet Mods mod team, since that seems like a viable avenue to explore to me, especially since like you said this doesn't fit the OMs mold. Pet Mods are much more flexible and varied in regards to how they change the game (and, to some extent, are open to "my end goal is <>" formats like this) - they recommended you take a look at Solomods, and their rules and regulations here - try submitting it to the submissions thread.

That said, I will provide some of my own thoughts, since I have been thinking about your format since you posted it. None of this is like, objective reality or word-from-high or what have you, they're just my own opinions based on what I understand of Smogon, Showdown, competitive Pokemon as a whole, and other related topics.

- Coding-wise, there is no easy way to do the kind of tiering action you're envisioning, as the closest equivalent is teambuilder validation rules for event Pokemon (think Gen 4 Raikou that can only be shiny if it has ExtremeSpeed) or how you can't find certain Pokemon (like evolutions) at lower than a certain level - this requires hard-coded rules in code indicating this information, and Showdown devs often have to go in and adjust things as folks find new niche situations where certain 'mons can be found in different environements. Randbats has a dedicated group that adjusts their specific corner of things, and they update it only occassionally. I would be incredibly surprised if there was a method that PS admins would be okay with to do this stuff automatically in the way you've described, meaning having this format as-is hosting on the main server would be likely impossible.
- Additionally, determing what matches should count and what shouldn't is something that is an impossible question to ask. Obviously, you don't want to include two friends manipulating levels by playing matches and doing intentional wins/losses, but how do you make that objective determination? How can one objectively determine whether a game is legitimate and both players are doing their best to win, and whether a game is not? Drawing the line is impossible from an angle of everyone agreeing to where the line is, and endlessly relitigating where individual games fall along that line.
- As an addendum to the above - if the goal is to make every one of the 1000+ mons viable, then you're likely to see 'mons rise and fall not based on their own merit, but by how good a player piloting them is. It's not unreasonable to assume that most 'mons are going to be used by maybe one or two people (aside exceptions like Arceus or Shadow Rider that will always be motivating for pure power) - the better the player using <mon>, the more likely it is to win. This, something that is being exclusively by a good player will not be balanced on its merit, but on the skill imbalance of the single person using it.
- Consistent tiering action is something that players and competitive communities are not huge fans of, generally speaking. There is a lot of conversation during many suspect test that the previous tiering change was too recent, and that people haven't figured out how to handle the thing being suspected in the modern meta. For example, what do you do when MonA is being used bc of how it interacts with/counters MonB, but then MonB's level changes - does MonA start back at 0 games on the record for its level balancing? If not, then does MonA retain a record from a meta that was much better for it despite the meta changing around it? This is aside the fact that many players will not enjoy having to constantly rebuild or adjust teams on a weekly or monthly basis because levels change, and thus speed tiers change, etc. This (people disliking have to go through their builder w/ fixes) already happens plenty in formats that change often via quickfire suspect tests or usage-based tiering shifts, I have to imagine that'd be present in a format where tiering happens every couple dozen games, potentially.
- There is also the fact that the wider a format is, the less enjoyable for many folks - the idea of having to account for so many potential threats and strategies with only six Pokemon is a daunting task, one that some NatDex formats and other similar formats are struggling with somewhat - and that's without balance changing or what have you. A format that actively tries to expand the list of viable Pokemon (compared to say, NatDex, that just has a larger list of available Pokemon) can quickly become incredibly frustrating as games feel out of your control and just a matter of who figured out the Pokemon overlevelled bc it hasn't been used yet, or the threat that one of the players couldn't account for in the builder happened to be on the other team.

Again, none of this is me saying this format can't work or that changes need to be made at its base, and admittedly I don't know what changes I might make to solve some of the above percieved issues. It's possible that the Pet Mods folks, who have a lot of experience making metagames with high 'mon counts when it comes to viability, will have ideas and means of creating something similar to what you are envisioning. I remember a Pet Mod (Solomod?) though I don't know its name, where they started off with a micrometa (limited number of 'mons allowed in the format), balanced it so everything was roughly equivalently viable, then slowly added more and more 'mons and keeping everything viable. While they had the ability to change base stats, movepools, abilities, etc, it's a fairly similar idea end-goal wise to what you're suggesting via more limited adjustment tools.

Anyway, hope some of these thoughts help, and hope that you find resources and information in Solomods to help you out with this format and your goals. But I don't think there's an avenue forward here in Unofficial Metagames at this point in time.
 
Hi there! The creation of a UM is not as simple as asking for it to be made, and there is no set-in-stone way for a format to be added to the UMs. I reached out to the Pet Mods mod team, since that seems like a viable avenue to explore to me, especially since like you said this doesn't fit the OMs mold. Pet Mods are much more flexible and varied in regards to how they change the game (and, to some extent, are open to "my end goal is <>" formats like this) - they recommended you take a look at Solomods, and their rules and regulations here - try submitting it to the submissions thread.

That said, I will provide some of my own thoughts, since I have been thinking about your format since you posted it. None of this is like, objective reality or word-from-high or what have you, they're just my own opinions based on what I understand of Smogon, Showdown, competitive Pokemon as a whole, and other related topics.

- Coding-wise, there is no easy way to do the kind of tiering action you're envisioning, as the closest equivalent is teambuilder validation rules for event Pokemon (think Gen 4 Raikou that can only be shiny if it has ExtremeSpeed) or how you can't find certain Pokemon (like evolutions) at lower than a certain level - this requires hard-coded rules in code indicating this information, and Showdown devs often have to go in and adjust things as folks find new niche situations where certain 'mons can be found in different environements. Randbats has a dedicated group that adjusts their specific corner of things, and they update it only occassionally. I would be incredibly surprised if there was a method that PS admins would be okay with to do this stuff automatically in the way you've described, meaning having this format as-is hosting on the main server would be likely impossible.
- Additionally, determing what matches should count and what shouldn't is something that is an impossible question to ask. Obviously, you don't want to include two friends manipulating levels by playing matches and doing intentional wins/losses, but how do you make that objective determination? How can one objectively determine whether a game is legitimate and both players are doing their best to win, and whether a game is not? Drawing the line is impossible from an angle of everyone agreeing to where the line is, and endlessly relitigating where individual games fall along that line.
- As an addendum to the above - if the goal is to make every one of the 1000+ mons viable, then you're likely to see 'mons rise and fall not based on their own merit, but by how good a player piloting them is. It's not unreasonable to assume that most 'mons are going to be used by maybe one or two people (aside exceptions like Arceus or Shadow Rider that will always be motivating for pure power) - the better the player using <mon>, the more likely it is to win. This, something that is being exclusively by a good player will not be balanced on its merit, but on the skill imbalance of the single person using it.
- Consistent tiering action is something that players and competitive communities are not huge fans of, generally speaking. There is a lot of conversation during many suspect test that the previous tiering change was too recent, and that people haven't figured out how to handle the thing being suspected in the modern meta. For example, what do you do when MonA is being used bc of how it interacts with/counters MonB, but then MonB's level changes - does MonA start back at 0 games on the record for its level balancing? If not, then does MonA retain a record from a meta that was much better for it despite the meta changing around it? This is aside the fact that many players will not enjoy having to constantly rebuild or adjust teams on a weekly or monthly basis because levels change, and thus speed tiers change, etc. This (people disliking have to go through their builder w/ fixes) already happens plenty in formats that change often via quickfire suspect tests or usage-based tiering shifts, I have to imagine that'd be present in a format where tiering happens every couple dozen games, potentially.
- There is also the fact that the wider a format is, the less enjoyable for many folks - the idea of having to account for so many potential threats and strategies with only six Pokemon is a daunting task, one that some NatDex formats and other similar formats are struggling with somewhat - and that's without balance changing or what have you. A format that actively tries to expand the list of viable Pokemon (compared to say, NatDex, that just has a larger list of available Pokemon) can quickly become incredibly frustrating as games feel out of your control and just a matter of who figured out the Pokemon overlevelled bc it hasn't been used yet, or the threat that one of the players couldn't account for in the builder happened to be on the other team.

Again, none of this is me saying this format can't work or that changes need to be made at its base, and admittedly I don't know what changes I might make to solve some of the above percieved issues. It's possible that the Pet Mods folks, who have a lot of experience making metagames with high 'mon counts when it comes to viability, will have ideas and means of creating something similar to what you are envisioning. I remember a Pet Mod (Solomod?) though I don't know its name, where they started off with a micrometa (limited number of 'mons allowed in the format), balanced it so everything was roughly equivalently viable, then slowly added more and more 'mons and keeping everything viable. While they had the ability to change base stats, movepools, abilities, etc, it's a fairly similar idea end-goal wise to what you're suggesting via more limited adjustment tools.

Anyway, hope some of these thoughts help, and hope that you find resources and information in Solomods to help you out with this format and your goals. But I don't think there's an avenue forward here in Unofficial Metagames at this point in time.

Thanks for looking into my idea and providing your thoughts, I really appreciate it!

I've gotten the suggestion before to try and submit this idea as a Pet Mod and I will reconcider it. Previously my reasoning was it shouldn't be a Pet Mod for the same reason it shouldn't be an OM: nothing new or non-standard is added to the game, you could even easily play it on cartridge. I understand it's the easier path to getting it playable though as they are less picky about what fits and doesn't fit a Pet Mod.

You make some really good points, some thoughts:

Techincal
  • Changes to the teambuilder wouldn't necessarily be needed. If you make a VGC team with pokemon that aren't lvl 50 it's fine, but when a match is loaded their levels are changed to 50. Maybe something similar should be possible but the levels are changed according to a database.
  • Showdown logs every rated match played for every tier, you'd need a script to run every time a new game is logged to update the win/loss count. I'm not great at coding but might try and see if I can get a lightweight proof of concept to work.
  • Whenever tiering action happens a bot could make a post in a sub-chatroom, to further inform players a doc like the following could be pinned in said chatroom:
1739021109445.png


Tiering
  • For regular tiers (like OU) determining what games are legitimate and should be counted for the usage stats and therefore tiering isn't a problem, I don't think it is too far off from there. Only count games over for example 1200 rating and like I said in my OP maybe additionally there would need to be a check that only a certain percentage of games counted for tiering can be from the same user. This would probably be more difficult to implement though.
  • Tiering should be slow enough that unless a mon is very obviously broken it shouldn't change level more than once per week. The nice thing about using levels for tiering is that one level change is only between 1-1,5% change in stats.
  • Hopefully when teambuilding you don't have to account for any specific threats and it's enough to stick to core teambuilding principles. There will always be good and bad matchups, maybe in this tier more than most other tiers, but speed creeping a certain Pokemon or EV'ing for a KO on a certain Pokemon just wouldn't be very good and I think that's okay.
  • You're right if a couple of good players are the only ones to use some obscure mon it'll get nerfed more than necessary. Not ideal but on the other hand it does encourage players to find alternatives and use new Pokemon. I'd be curious to see how this would work out in practice.
  • I never concidered people would prefer having a limited number of options to think about like you suggest, but it's a good point.
Thanks again for the insights, I'll think about how/if I want to take this further!
 
Back
Top