While the topic in itself has been controversial for a long time, as of the past couple of years complaints regarding the state of sleep in DPP UU have really taken afloat and drastically increased in volume. This thread's aim is to determine whether sleep is a problem in the tier and, if so, act accordingly before UUPL season.
The main reasons why it's perceived as problematic are the RNG aspect inherently connected to the mechanic, its manifestation as a 75% acc move in Sleep Powder, and of course its presence on the most ubiquitous pokemon in the tier, Venusaur. The first point needs no introduction as it's been the centerpiece of debate for years, sleep's erratic outcome is rather uncompetitive and a high quantity of turns spent asleep can single-handedly ruin someone's position in a game. The second and third points are more convoluted than they seem at first glance, and part of the reason why goes back to how DPP UU works as a tier and how offensive/fast-paced games tend to be nowadays: in most tiers where sleep powder is commonly used there’s discourse about whether or not clicking the move in a dangerous situation is worthwhile or not, but in DPP UU it’s pretty much accepted that if you can click sleep going for it is nearly always “correct” as it is tantamount to an OHKO. Venusaur in itself has a huge variety of sets and can pretty much take on any mon in the tier with the right set of moves, meaning trying to burn sleep turns against it comes with great risk. But even after taking Venusaur out of the equation, the tier is full of pokémon you can’t afford to give a moment of breath to, such as Blaziken as well as setup threats like Feraligatr, making it incredibly difficult to recover a mon that has been sacked to sleep.
When discussing counterplay, the main focus should be on Sleep Powder Venusaur, but many of the points extend naturally to the less common sleep users such as Exeggutor and Milotic. The most common sleep absorber on balance teams tends to be Registeel, which can handle most Venusaur sets, though it’s not safe by any means given it exposes itself to a possible SD variant. Uxie is also often utilised as a sleep absorber; its bulk allows it to be able to take anything Venusaur can throw at it, but it lacks longevity against any variant. What both of these mons have in common is their role as compression tools for their teams, often carrying rocks as well as wanting to answer other elements (special attackers such as Mismagius or CM Uxie for Registeel, Fighting types which are really common in the tier for Uxie) which complicates the sequencing a lot, often making the trade still favourable for the Venusaur user to take. As a result, Lum Berry has been utilised as a shortcut to have more agency recently, but it’s hardly a perfect solution. Outside of those, there are very few potential sleep absorbers: others are Clefable, specially defensive Venusaur, Weezing, and some niche options like Early Bird Houndoom and Kangaskhan, or Sleep Talk Choice users. I would largely consider the Early Bird users not realistic for most builds on top of them not wanting to directly switch in; using Early Bird on Houndoom in particular sacrifices a lot of its defensive utility against dangerous attackers like offensive Moltres and Entei, and using Early Bird Kangaskhan means opting out of Scrappy, which is normally the main reason to choose it over Ambipom. The other sleep absorbers are threatened by Venusaur’s attacks to some degree (or are very exploitable in Weezing’s case) and rely on short to medium duration sleep rolls if they’re not perfectly healthy.
The impact of such a change would obviously be massive and possibly amount to a reshaping of the entire tier. However, I think it's the main step to be taken towards a healthier metagame, where it’s not forced to take unreasonable constraints to avoid RNG from affecting nearly every game. Lastly, if anything was to come out as problematic as a result of this change, we should be acting on that instead of being scared of changing the status quo. I don't personally believe this is going to be the case, but people have expressed concerns regarding Clefable or hazards-based playstyles in a post-sleep metagame. If sleep is single-handedly keeping those in check, that probably means they were problematic to begin with, and should take the spotlight for discussion afterwards. This thread is going to remain up for about 2 weeks, followed by a vote on sleep-inducing moves if there is enough support.
The main reasons why it's perceived as problematic are the RNG aspect inherently connected to the mechanic, its manifestation as a 75% acc move in Sleep Powder, and of course its presence on the most ubiquitous pokemon in the tier, Venusaur. The first point needs no introduction as it's been the centerpiece of debate for years, sleep's erratic outcome is rather uncompetitive and a high quantity of turns spent asleep can single-handedly ruin someone's position in a game. The second and third points are more convoluted than they seem at first glance, and part of the reason why goes back to how DPP UU works as a tier and how offensive/fast-paced games tend to be nowadays: in most tiers where sleep powder is commonly used there’s discourse about whether or not clicking the move in a dangerous situation is worthwhile or not, but in DPP UU it’s pretty much accepted that if you can click sleep going for it is nearly always “correct” as it is tantamount to an OHKO. Venusaur in itself has a huge variety of sets and can pretty much take on any mon in the tier with the right set of moves, meaning trying to burn sleep turns against it comes with great risk. But even after taking Venusaur out of the equation, the tier is full of pokémon you can’t afford to give a moment of breath to, such as Blaziken as well as setup threats like Feraligatr, making it incredibly difficult to recover a mon that has been sacked to sleep.
When discussing counterplay, the main focus should be on Sleep Powder Venusaur, but many of the points extend naturally to the less common sleep users such as Exeggutor and Milotic. The most common sleep absorber on balance teams tends to be Registeel, which can handle most Venusaur sets, though it’s not safe by any means given it exposes itself to a possible SD variant. Uxie is also often utilised as a sleep absorber; its bulk allows it to be able to take anything Venusaur can throw at it, but it lacks longevity against any variant. What both of these mons have in common is their role as compression tools for their teams, often carrying rocks as well as wanting to answer other elements (special attackers such as Mismagius or CM Uxie for Registeel, Fighting types which are really common in the tier for Uxie) which complicates the sequencing a lot, often making the trade still favourable for the Venusaur user to take. As a result, Lum Berry has been utilised as a shortcut to have more agency recently, but it’s hardly a perfect solution. Outside of those, there are very few potential sleep absorbers: others are Clefable, specially defensive Venusaur, Weezing, and some niche options like Early Bird Houndoom and Kangaskhan, or Sleep Talk Choice users. I would largely consider the Early Bird users not realistic for most builds on top of them not wanting to directly switch in; using Early Bird on Houndoom in particular sacrifices a lot of its defensive utility against dangerous attackers like offensive Moltres and Entei, and using Early Bird Kangaskhan means opting out of Scrappy, which is normally the main reason to choose it over Ambipom. The other sleep absorbers are threatened by Venusaur’s attacks to some degree (or are very exploitable in Weezing’s case) and rely on short to medium duration sleep rolls if they’re not perfectly healthy.
The impact of such a change would obviously be massive and possibly amount to a reshaping of the entire tier. However, I think it's the main step to be taken towards a healthier metagame, where it’s not forced to take unreasonable constraints to avoid RNG from affecting nearly every game. Lastly, if anything was to come out as problematic as a result of this change, we should be acting on that instead of being scared of changing the status quo. I don't personally believe this is going to be the case, but people have expressed concerns regarding Clefable or hazards-based playstyles in a post-sleep metagame. If sleep is single-handedly keeping those in check, that probably means they were problematic to begin with, and should take the spotlight for discussion afterwards. This thread is going to remain up for about 2 weeks, followed by a vote on sleep-inducing moves if there is enough support.
