Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

Cresselia92 · Jan 24, 2017

Mewnium Z can finally be obtained through the Pokémon Bank. So, could Mew carve itself a niche as Psychic Terrain setter ~~and make Psychic once again a bit obnoxious to face~~?

Tyke · Jan 25, 2017

Darklatias92 said:
Mewnium Z can finally be obtained through the Pokémon Bank. So, could Mew carve itself a niche as Psychic Terrain setter ~~and make Psychic once again a bit obnoxious to face~~?

It's a damn shame that the actual Z-move doesn't benefit from the damage boost of the terrain it induces. It's not much for team support as you can't run it with terrain extender, it's single use, and tapus are all over the meta to overwrite your terrain.

It might be neat for a fun little set at first glance, but I doubt it'll be very relevant in the metagame.

Ridley · Jan 25, 2017

Darklatias92 said:
Mewnium Z can finally be obtained through the Pokémon Bank. So, could Mew carve itself a niche as Psychic Terrain setter ~~and make Psychic once again a bit obnoxious to face~~?

I think that it could set up well for late game sweeps, either with Mew or any of Psychic's strong potential sweepers. But yeah, Tyke is right, it would only be effective if you were to take out the opponent's terrain setters so that you could get some use out of your 5 turns.

Namranan · Jan 25, 2017

Darklatias92 said:
Mewnium Z can finally be obtained through the Pokémon Bank. So, could Mew carve itself a niche as Psychic Terrain setter ~~and make Psychic once again a bit obnoxious to face~~?

I mean I agree with everything the others said, but I can only see this being the most useful as a way of preventing sucker punch spammers. Otherwise it can probably make some strong gimmicks on psychic.

juleocesar · Jan 25, 2017

Mewnium Z looks like an underrated item IMO. I know Mew usually runs defensive / utility sets, but there have been several cases last generation regarding its usage as an offensive threat to lure its usual checks. I agree the Tapus are an issue due to their ability to dispell terrain, but considering the raw power provided by its Z-move, its not only a matter of terrain-setting. For me, the Psychic Terrain looks more of a secondary effect and the Z-move shouldn't be used for the sole reason of setting it. With its amazing coverage at its disposal, the Z-move could be a good item for late game cases like Ridley mentioned, since it not only prevents priority and increases Psychic damage, but also can be used to take down a crucial threat. I still expect to see more standard utility Mews being used but I still think Mewnium Z could see some usage on tours, and that it can work really well if used properly.

n64lord · Jan 25, 2017

KGBanter said:
Thoughts on Normalium Z, anyone? Considering it allows for some extreme sets in this meta such as (Z-Happy Hour Greninja, Jirachi, Gyarados, Snorlax), (Z-Belly Drum Azumarill), (Z-Celebrate Eevees & starters), (Z-Splash Gyarados & others), (Z-Conversion Porygon-Z), etc.. I feel like it deserves some more discussion at least. For example, Greninja is already a highly capable (maybe even broken) Pokemon and it can literally just sweep through some types like Psychic and Ground when it has Z-Happy Hour.

Only really feeling z conversion and z belly drum's impact.... Z-celebrate on starters precludes the use of mega stones, and while the eevees get stored power the only ones a good position to use it with celebrate are espeon and maybe sylveon.

Dragon dance does as much for gyarados offensively as happy hour without taking an item- and the+1+1 bulk is largely made up with mega stone anyway. I don't see it beating out bounce-z on non mega gyarados anytime soon.

non self-destruct Snorlax is questionable in such a fast paced meta.

Z-splash would make gyarados into more of a wall breaker than sweeper, it would not allow gyarados to outspeed threats the way dragon dance does- and some of the pokemon he outspeeds and KOs after a DD don't need an attack boost to begin with- further he could simply run taunt+DD or be switched out with SD lando-t/ crawdaunt receptively if pure wall breaking and "fast" setup is all that i wanted.

Z-happy jirachi is really annoying on paper, but I haven't found it to have an impact against generic flying/steel/water/dark cores. Stuff like mandibuzz/ferrothron just aren't really managable with only 2 coverage moves. ~~it's a god in monothreat though~~

As for greninja, I find it too specialized to be honest. on paper should give you "specs and scarf greninja in one" but it costs limiting yourself to 3 coverage moves, having to stay in on an attack~ and if you switch him out for any reason, it mean that greninja will go unboosted (and essentially itemless) for the rest of the match. Versus psychic's case- he essentially a specs greninja that can't be checked by scarf tini, but versus ground's case it seems to do NOTHING that LO doesn't since the 327 speed you hit at +1 is still lower than sand rush excadrill, and you may not even have the coverage to kill mamoswine/ gastrodon if running 3 attacks. I guess it frees you up from worrying about the rare ground that uses scarf lando-t / nidoking?

So yeah, I think all of the normal type boosting moves are too gimmicky except for azu drum and porygon conversion.

SubMindRaikou · Jan 26, 2017

So basically you can transfer RBY mons to SM which means that you get a ton of weird moves. I was bored so I made a list of some notable moves that already viable mons get. For a list of GSC/RBY moves I've used Serebii (Transfer Only Moves section), Smog Dex RBY and GSC, and this reddit post which describes a few limitations. Additionally, these new Pokemon cannot get move tutors from gen 3/4/5/6, meaning that their movepool would rely on level up and TM/HM moves. Also all transferred Pokemon will have their hidden ability if available (IGN / Serebii). Also if I skipped something its probably because I didn't see any new cool toys (feel free to let me know however if I missed something good so I can add it).

Green are possibly relevant new moves Red are relevant lost moves Bold is a noteworthy Pokemon * is an event move which may be unavailable

Blastoise (Rain Dish) - Reflect (RBY), Mirror Coat (Egg Move), Dragon Pulse (Egg Move), Aura Sphere (Egg Move)

Chansey (Healer) - Reflect (RBY), Heal Bell (Egg Move), Stealth Rock (ORAS Tutor)

Golem (Sand Veil) - Rapid Spin (GSC)*, Fire Punch (ORAS Tutor), Thunder Punch (ORAS Tutor), Superpower (ORAS Tutor), Sucker Punch (HGSS)

Gyarados (Moxie) - Reversal (GSC)*, Reflect (RBY), Bounce (ORAS Tutor)

Lapras (Hydration) - Reflect (RBY), Freeze Dry (Egg Move), Signal Beam (ORAS Tutor)

Magneton (Analytic) - Agility (RBY), Magic Coat (ORAS Tutor), Signal Beam (ORAS Tutor)

Nidoking (Sheer Force) - Lovely Kiss (GSC)*, Sucker Punch (Egg Move), Superpower (ORAS Tutor), Stealth Rock (ORAS Tutor)

Nidoqueen (Sheer Force) - Lovely Kiss (GSC)*, Stealth Rock (ORAS Tutor), Super Fang (ORAS Tutor)

Politoed (Drizzle) - Lovely Kiss (GSC)*, Encore (Egg Move), Icy Wind (ORAS Tutor)

Porygon2 (Analytic) - Curse (GSC), Barrier (GSC)*, Foul Play (ORAS Tutor)

Tentacruel (Rain Dish) - Barrier (RBY+GSC), Reflect (RBY), Knock Off (Egg Move), Magic Coat (ORAS Tutor)

Venusaur (Chlorophyll) - Ancient Power (GSC)*, Reflect (RBY), Knock Off (ORAS Tutor), Amnesia (Egg Move), Leaf Storm (Egg Move)

OTHER
Pokemon listed here are generally unviable or do not make good use of these moves. If you wish you can click the link to be taken to Serebii's Pokedex page which lists the Egg and Transfer Moves that would be unobtainable in the same set.

Dodrio

Dragonite

Gengar

Lapras

Mew

Rhydon

EVENTS
Japanese Mew (March 19, 2016 - May 8, 2016)
Any nature
Ability: Synchronize
Move(s): Pound

United Kingdom Mew (Novemver 22, 2016)
Any nature
Ability: Synchronize
Move(s): Pound

PS I made this post pretty late at night so if I made any mistakes just shoot me a VM and I can fix things. If you also want to add anything (such as a new viable Pokemon or another move that may be interesting for some people) just let me know.

Edit: Some moves are event only which are now marked by an asterisk. There's also a section listing all the event Pokemon for virtual console RBY

Wincon · Jan 26, 2017

Breeze Sea · Jan 26, 2017

Totally hyped as an ice user LETS GO that monster that nothing ohkod or could switch in to is now gone thank lord mega metagross is off this earth. Of course ice isnt going to be good now but vs steel is wayy more managable now. I can hear it now the "mega scizor is wayy worse" comments and i would like to say thats absolutely wrong. Lapras by itself checks scizor, if boosted avalugg can roar or babiri berry kyub can check it as well. Of course its a threat that if ignored means you get swept but any decent ice player can deal with mega scizor wayy more easily than megagross. i cant tell you how many times meteor mash got that 1.5 attack boost or someone ran a bp + mash meta or mash + hammer arm and completely obliterated. :D hp fire anything and scizor gets r3kt lapras and walrein both live x2 bp and if you speed creep it doesnt matter if they run superpower. woop woop finally a steel mega that I can check. :) it's a good day

Wish9 · Jan 28, 2017

~~rip Unbound~~

The main reason why Meloetta wasn't very common on Mono Psychic teams in both ORAS and SM pre-Mega Gross + Unbound ban was due to its main role, being the best ghost check, being filled by Unbound (who could also break through ghost cores with one STAB Dark Pulse with a Specs set unlike Meloetta which needs Dazzling Gleam to get past Mega Sableye) with the only saving grace it had being the Ghost immunity and a slightly better speed tier.

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 184-218 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There are much more things that Unbound hits harder than Meloetta that are significant but I'm not gonna list any other calcs because otherwise I'll be here all day lol. With Unbound recently getting banned, I could see Meloetta's usage rising by tenfold.

Azelea · Jan 28, 2017

Wish9 said:
~~rip Unbound~~

The main reason why Meloetta wasn't very common on Mono Psychic teams in both ORAS and SM pre-Mega Gross + Unbound ban was due to its main role, being the best ghost check, being filled by Unbound (who could also break through ghost cores with one STAB Dark Pulse with a Specs set unlike Meloetta which needs Dazzling Gleam to get past Mega Sableye) with the only saving grace it had being the Ghost immunity and a slightly better speed tier.

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 184-218 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There are much more things that Unbound hits harder than Meloetta that are significant but I'm not gonna list any other calcs because otherwise I'll be here all day lol. With Unbound recently getting banned, I could see Meloetta's usage rising by tenfold.

It will be interesting to see how psychic teams will change now, will people just try to fill Hoopa-U’s shoes with a another wallbreaker or switch the playing style completely?

The issue however is that Psychic doesn’t really have any strong wallbreakers at the moment. Meloetta like you said can hit very hard and adds a nice niche with the ghost immunity but it doesn’t have the amazing stats and unpredictability that Hoopa-U brought to the table. Other than Meloetta what is there? Specs Latios? Band-Victini? Hoopa?
Until Mega-Medicham gets released i feel like Psychic might have difficulties trying to find a way back to the top in this metagame.

One pokemon that i would really recommend using now is Goth since Psychic could use something to break through the balanced teams.

Gothitelle @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Thunderbolt/Energy Ball
- Thunder Wave/Taunt

Hammy · Jan 29, 2017

Now that Hoopa and Metagross are gone a mon that I think we should definately look into potentially introducing back into the meta is Tapu Lele. Tapu Lele is a great mon and with the psychic terrain it gives it a 1.5 boost to its psychic moves and blocks priority. When it was first banned I personally saw Tapu Lele as a great mon but not busted as some saw it but I did agree that psychic was a bit overpowered in the meta and definately needed a nerf. But now that psychic has lost 2 of it its strongest offensive threats I wouldn't mind tapu lele in this meta.

Psychic teams would benefit greatly from this and would give them a great boost to their STAB psychic moves and would help block against priority particularly 2 types of priority which are super effective against them (sucker punch and shadow sneak). It would give psychic a great scarfer / wall breaker with the specs or CM set and would overall greatly benefit the type in a positive way. I don't see this being as broken as it was earlier on in the gen when Hoopa and Metagross were around, but it will definately make pokemon such as Alakazam and Latis very powerful with the terrain boost but I don't see this too be problematic.

The biggest positive for fairy from psychic terrain would be the ability to block priority so mons like Scizor wont be able to freely click Bullet punch. That may sound broken but most players won't be switching there lele hard in and risk a potential Bug Bite or U-Turn. Add the fact that fairy also has access to the other 3 Tapus which on some teams will lead to constant terrain change and a potential less amount of psychic terrain turns.

Although some of the bans were done a little to quickly imo I definately understood at the time why this was banned (even though I didn't agree) but now after recent bans I definately think we should reconsider unbanning this through a straight up unban or a suspect test were lele would be usable.

Eien · Jan 29, 2017

Personally speaking here. I don't think it's worth bothering with a Tapu Lele suspect. I didn't vote to ban Tapu Lele to nerf Psychic. I won't speak for the others, but I have never voted to simply nerf a type because I don't believe any types are overpowered enough to warrant such a drastic decision. At any rate, I don't see Tapu Lele performing any worse than it had before after the recent bans. I don't believe in tiering to "help" types, but even if I did, Psychic and Fairy wouldn't need it. Fairy is perhaps the best type in the metagame right now and Psychic is not far behind. I'd still solidly place Psychic in the top third of types. When Psychic lost Hoopa-U, it also just gained Genesis Supernova and the PokeBank release is also going to bring another huge powerhouse to Psychic. A Tapu Lele unban would be a huge mistake in my opinion right before Magic Guard + Counter Alakazam is released.

I can speak more directly about Tapu Lele as well. If we're willing to ban Hoopa-U, I see no reason to unban Tapu Lele, a wallbreaking monster on the same level. Automatic activation of Psychic Terrain is simply too powerful even when you ignore all of the utility barring the damage boost. This is literally just the Hoopa-U disaster all over again. Without a Dark-type, Psychic / Psyshock spam outright breaks defensive cores. Psychic Terrain acts as a 1.5x multiplier, which is even more powerful than Adaptability and Tough Claws. Its secondary STAB attack, Moonblast, makes sure even if you have Dark-types, you can't stop it. With fantastic coverage options in Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, and even Hidden Power Fire, very few Pokemon can actually wall Tapu Lele. These include exactly Pokemon like Assault Vest Alolan Muk and Assault Vest Magearna. It's quite ridiculous that Pokemon with defensive stats and typing like them still need Assault Vest to actually wall Tapu Lele reliably.

Now factor in the utility that Psychic Terrain brings to Tapu Lele. Tapu Lele cannot be revenge killed by Bullet Punch from Mega Scizor, Sucker Punch from Bisharp, or Shadow Sneak from Doublade. Furthermore, Tapu Lele prevents Klefki from using Thunder Wave to cripple it. And if we include Psychic Terrain's utility to the entire team for both types it is legal for, it's clear to me that it's ridiculously broken.

If you want a Hoopa-U replacement, Psychic has plenty of options. Mega Metagross wasn't even a huge loss for Psychic to begin with, seeing as both Mega Alakazam and Mega Slowbro are just so good. Fairy also has a couple options for beating Mega Scizor including Foul Play Klefki and Babiri Berry Clefable. I don't see why we would unban one of the most powerful wallbreakers Monotype has seen this generation for two of the highest tier types.

Normal Core:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 153-180 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 164-193 (44 - 51.8%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Mantine: 295-348 (78.8 - 93%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 225-265 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Dark Core:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 434-512 (102.6 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 224-266 (55.5 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 332-392 (109.2 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Arash · Jan 30, 2017

So it was recently announced that Mawilite and Beedrillite are being released next month through online competition prize. Mega-Beedrill will be fun to mess with now that it doesn't have to run Protect, but will Mega-Mawile be quick-banned right away, or will it have a chance in the metagame before a decision is reached?

Also the announcement confirmed that most (if not all) of the unreleased mega stones will be released in this fashion, which is something nice to look forward to:)

Jahkem · Jan 30, 2017

Arash said:
will Mega-Mawile be quick-banned right away, or will it have a chance in the metagame before a decision is reached?

On the first page, second post of forum, scpinion says that Mawilite remains banned.

But on the note of Beedrilite being released, I'm looking forward to trying a more Hyper Offensive Poison team rather than Balanced. Mega-Beedrill, with its amazing speed tier that's able to outspeed scarfed base 80s by literally 1, can put out some major damage with a massive 150 base Atk paired with Adaptability.

Beedrill-Mega @ Beedrillite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- X-Scissor
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off
- Fell Stinger

I'm curious as to how well a Fell Stinger set may work on Poison. Fell Stinger boosts the Atk of Mega Beedrill by +3 when it KOs a mon with this move. I'm mainly focusing on Poison because I feel Mega Beedrill isn't really needed on Bug when it has Mega Scizor and Mega Pinsir. I'm not too experienced with Poison, I mainly use it from time to time for fun on on ladder or in tours. Looking at this set, I get straight up walled by mons like Magearna and Toxapex, but this is basically a rough draft of what I might try at the start. I could possibly use Drill Run but that's for a later date on a different team.

Here's a few simple calcs against a few common bulky mons:
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 248-292 (59.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 268-316 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Zapdos: 170-200 (44.2 - 52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 194-230 (48 - 56.9%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Here's some calcs after a Fell Stinger boost:
+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 130-153 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+3 252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 157-185 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 364-430 (119.7 - 141.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Mantine: 484-570 (129.4 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 120 HP / 136+ Def Alomomola: 452-532 (90.2 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz: 348-410 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

You get the picture.

The second half of calcs, of course, are only possible if you pull off a KO w/ Fell Stinger. Still, I'm looking forward trying to out this set in the meta and hope for the best. Let me know what you guys think! Again, I'm not very experienced with Poison so all criticisms, good and bad, are welcome!

EDIT: Man, I don't know how to do a proper quote on this... My first time trying, rip.
EDIT: Thanks Paleo for showing how blind I am, hehe.

Arash · Jan 30, 2017

Jahkem said:
On the first page, second post of forum, scpinion says that Mawilite remains banned.

But on the note of Beedrilite being released, I'm looking forward to trying a more Hyper Offensive Poison team rather than Balanced. Mega-Beedrill, with its amazing speed tier that's able to outspeed scarfed base 80s by literally 1, can put out some major damage with a massive 150 base Atk paired with Adaptability.

Beedrill-Mega @ Beedrillite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- X-Scissor
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off
- Fell Stinger
I'm curious as to how well a Fell Stinger set may work on Poison. Fell Stinger boosts the Atk of Mega Beedrill by +3 when it KOs a mon with this move. I'm mainly focusing on Poison because I feel Mega Beedrill isn't really needed on Bug when it has Mega Scizor and Mega Pinsir. I'm not too experienced with Poison, I mainly use it from time to time for fun on on ladder or in tours. Looking at this set, I get straight up walled by mons like Magearna and Toxapex, but this is basically a rough draft of what I might try at the start. I could possibly use Drill Run but that's for a later date on a different team.

Here's a few simple calcs against a few common bulky mons:
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 248-292 (59.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 268-316 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Zapdos: 170-200 (44.2 - 52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 194-230 (48 - 56.9%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Here's some calcs after a Fell Stinger boost:
+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 130-153 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+3 252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 157-185 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 364-430 (119.7 - 141.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Mantine: 484-570 (129.4 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 120 HP / 136+ Def Alomomola: 452-532 (90.2 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz: 348-410 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

You get the picture.

The second half of calcs, of course, are only possible if you pull off a KO w/ Fell Stinger. Still, I'm looking forward trying to out this set in the meta and hope for the best. Let me know what you guys think! Again, I'm not very experienced with Poison so all criticisms, good and bad, are welcome!

EDIT: Man, I don't know how to do a proper quote on this... My first time trying, rip.

Beedrill definitely isn't going to want to run more than one Bug move, as the coverage provided by Knock Off and Drill Run is too good to pass up. Drill Run will 2HKO Magearna and will do about 35-40% on Toxapex, meaning that if Tox isn't close to full health it cannot switch in.

That said, your choices for a Bug move consists of U-turn (utility/momentum), X-Scissor (power) and Fell Stinger (more for endgame sweeping). All of these have some merit, but tbh if you are Poison and you want a fast Bug/Poison attacker that can boost and if you can live w/o Knock Off, Scolipede is probably still the better choice as it can get the boost more reliably with Swords Dance, can outspeed way more than Mega-Beedrill can at +1, has access to Megahorn, and allows you to run Mega-Venusaur on the team (a major negative for Mega-Beedrill)

Mega-Beedrill will still have its uses especially on a HO archetype, but U-turn is probably the bug move of choice as it is something Scolipede can't do otherwise. Also keep in mind that Mega-Beedrill has piss poor defenses and is forced out by a lot early to mid game, and being able to smack stuff and run away with U-turn is more valuable than trying to dent something with Fell Stinger and having to risk losing Mega-Bee.

Namranan · Feb 5, 2017

DISCLAIMER: The following are conversation starters, I am not listing any opinions whatsoever, I am simply curious about these topics.

While we wait for the new megas to release, I figured we should discuss some things during this downtime:

Next Suspects:
Obviously Celesteela, magearna and Tapu Koko have been looked at by the community quite a bit. However some people think that there need to be suspects done on these mons because they are "Too OP," and, "Render my team useless." It would be interesting if we could discuss some nice checks or even counters to these powerful mons, or just speculate about some future suspects (i.e Marshadow).

Z-Moves on powerful sweepers:
Tyke already talked about this for a bit, but I have fiddled with some Z-sets as well and found some very useful sets that can potentially make some mons a little more viable. An example is Z-mirror move Honchkrow, which can be used for endgame sweeping and make better use of superpower. There are clearly more useful sets than this, but that is up to you guys to discuss.

Mega Beedrill and other new/veteran mons that may come soon:
Mega-Beedrill will obviously shift the meta for both bug and poison quite a bit, but what about the other megas that haven't been released yet? How would they fit into the new meta? I honestly want to know what you guys will think about the future of the lower tier types once all the megas are released.

I hope these eventually spark an interesting conversation for the thread while we wait for Mega-Bee.

iLlama · Feb 5, 2017

Namranan said:
DISCLAIMER: The following are conversation starters, I am not listing any opinions whatsoever, I am simply curious about these topics.

While we wait for the new megas to release, I figured we should discuss some things during this downtime:

Next Suspects:
Obviously Celesteela, magearna and Tapu Koko have been looked at by the community quite a bit. However some people think that there need to be suspects done on these mons because they are "Too OP," and, "Render my team useless." It would be interesting if we could discuss some nice checks or even counters to these powerful mons, or just speculate about some future suspects (i.e Marshadow).

Z-Moves on powerful sweepers:
Tyke already talked about this for a bit, but I have fiddled with some Z-sets as well and found some very useful sets that can potentially make some mons a little more viable. An example is Z-mirror move Honchkrow, which can be used for endgame sweeping and make better use of superpower. There are clearly more useful sets than this, but that is up to you guys to discuss.

Mega Beedrill and other new/veteran mons that may come soon:
Mega-Beedrill will obviously shift the meta for both bug and poison quite a bit, but what about the other megas that haven't been released yet? How would they fit into the new meta? I honestly want to know what you guys will think about the future of the lower tier types once all the megas are released.

I hope these eventually spark an interesting conversation for the thread while we wait for Mega-Bee.

As far as suspects go, the only noticeable threat that I could see put on the table for mentioning currently is Greninja. Since the banning of the various major threats of the SM metagame has been occurring, Greninja has only grown in potential for being a go to monstrous Pokemon in both of its types. Protean is still an incredibly powerful ability that gives Greninja an unpredictability that some types, such as Ground or Flying, have trouble coping with. Pairing that with its speed tier and movepool that can hit most anything, is essentially why it can prove to be so dangerous in Monotype. Until it can shift the metagame and become noticeably broken, such as with Hoopa-U, it most likely won't come up on the slate as an actual suspect for a while. The best way to gauge if Greninja has become suspect-worthy is through the Winter Seasonal and the upcoming Monotype Open. If Greninja sees high usage just as how the previously banned Pokemon have, than you can be sure that discussion focused on its suspect will arise.

On another note, with regards to the other Pokemon you mentioned as suspect material, I've been noticing quite a bit of discussion in chat dealing with all three of them. Unfortunately, many of the arguments supporting a suspect of these Pokemon, or even a quick-ban, have almost always dealt with an individual feeling there type had no answer for them. More often than not, the said user's type would be weak to whatever Pokemon was being discussed and would lack actual reasoning as to whether or not their suspect-worthy Pokemon was actually broken. This type of argument isn't mentioning anything of value other than possibly one's bias towards their favorite type or something like that. I think this problem ultimately comes back to people thinking that bans and suspects are for making all types balanced and equal in viability, which isn't the case. The purpose is for making sure that no types are over-powered, i.e. why originally Kartana and Mega Metagross were being considered to switch off their bans for a period of time to consider which Pokemon was truly broken, but in the end they are both banned. If equalizing the meta would be an acceptable way begin suspects on Pokemon, then I'm sure the slate would have a list of 10, possibly more potential suspects lined up with things like Mega Charizard X, Mega Sableye, and Xurkitree. As far as Marshadow goes, I could see a suspect for it well into the future, once it and the other Mega Evolutions have been released.

Z-Moves, to me, are like the DLC of Pokemon. They aren't a real namesake most of the time, but when they pop-up every now and again in matches, that can be incredibly powerful, especially if your opponent isn't prepared for them. I've been having a lot of fun trying some interesting sets with various Z-Move options like Groundium Z SD Garchomp or Z-Belly Drum Kommo-o. It's also enjoyable to try out the already well-known sets such as SubPunch Fightinium Z Buzzwole (though you may prefer SD) and Z-Hypnosis Xurkitree. Z-Mirror Move Honch sounds like a cool idea so I'll probably test it out a bit, but I only wish more Pokemon had access to that move that could actually make good use of it.

Mega Beedrill has some pretty glaring flaws that, even with the buff to Mega Evolutions, it can't get around easily. In neutral situations it can be a monster with racking up damage through its STAB attacks and with Offensive pivots in U-turn, but its incredibly limited in what it can hit effectively. Bug/Poison is not great as a typing, all things considered, especially in Monotype, and Mega Beedrill is outclassed by the current Mega Evolution options in both of its types. Realistically, Mega Beedrill doesn't bring anything to the table that another Pokemon can't already fill in its respective types, besides its speed tier, which in retrospect, isn't necessarily needed. Its only potential to thrive then, revolves back to neutral matchups, and generally, not the top types. When considering how Mega Beedrill matches up against the top types, it has Psychic and Fairy going for it super-effectively, but that doesn't mean that it actually wins against these types. Although Psychic may be forced to sack Pokemon against either Mega Beedrill Bug or Poison teams, the types main scarfers, Victini and Jirachi, both beat Mega Beedrill 1v1, even though Jirachi's Iron Head is only an OHKO after damage from Stealth Rock. Fairy on the other hand, has checks in Klefki and Magearna for Mega Beedrill's Poison Jab, even though Drill Run can still do a hefty amount of damage. However, if Klefki gets up a Reflect Mega Beedrill can no longer OHKO Pokemon on Fairy, meaning that it not only can not function as a good pivot because Bug is resisted, but it also can't work as a fast sweeper, which is the only other role it can fill in this situation. Then consider how it manages other strong types such as Ground, Flying, and Steel. Unlike CC Mega Pinsir, SD Mega Scizor, or Mixed Mega Venusaur, Mega Beedrill isn't able to do anything that's even distinguishable of being good for its types. In the end, it'll be nice to see some more variety coming into the game and to able to mess around with another Mega Evolution, but don't hold your breath.

As far as other megas go, the only ones that standout as meta changing are Diancie, Gallade, and Medicham. Diancie not having to run Protect any more and gaining Power Gem, though I would still prefer Diamond Storm, is absolutely huge and frees it from the 4 moveslot curse. With Gallade and Medicham, you can be sure to see Fighting soar in usage and Psychic will now have powerful assets in the Dark, Normal, and Steel matchups respectively. I do wonder if the same effect will occur with these two megas, to where Mega Gallade turns into the once believed super threat that it was with an incredible starting speed tier. At this point, the other unreleased megas don't provide anything to their respective types that seems entirely necessary and are more or less a bonus option to add come variety into the mix. The only outliers to this being both Normal megas, Mega Latias, and possibly Mega Manectric thanks to its Fire coverage and Electric's abuse of Electric Terrain.

Moosical · Feb 5, 2017

Namranan said:
Next Suspects:
Obviously Celesteela, magearna and Tapu Koko have been looked at by the community quite a bit. However some people think that there need to be suspects done on these mons because they are "Too OP," and, "Render my team useless." It would be interesting if we could discuss some nice checks or even counters to these powerful mons, or just speculate about some future suspects (i.e Marshadow).

It's very easy for (chatroom) players to complain about something like koko or celesteela when their team isn't prepared, or they themselves aren't prepared; they aren't insurmountable mons to face. While celesteela can be annoying, the biggest trick is figuring out what set it is and what evs its running, then dealing with it from there. It does have an option to run all 4 major ev spreads (physical/special attacker or physical/special wall), but once it's determined, the majority of teams can deal with all of the sets. On the other hand, I could see magearna having a suspect in the future. It has a really strong movepool, typing, ability, and bst spread with the options of either trick room, or boosting with either calm mind or shift gear. It's a great z-move user to start up its boosting or to work as a wallbreaker, and can easily sweep an opposing team after the 1-2 big opposing threats are taken care of. Worth being looked at a bit more, but I don't feel like writing a dissertation right now much like esteemed user Tyke would ;).

Namranan said:
Z-Moves on powerful sweepers:
Tyke already talked about this for a bit, but I have fiddled with some Z-sets as well and found some very useful sets that can potentially make some mons a little more viable. An example is Z-mirror move Honchkrow, which can be used for endgame sweeping and make better use of superpower. There are clearly more useful sets than this, but that is up to you guys to discuss.

I think z-moves are a very exciting factor in the gen7 metagame. The majority of players don't utilize them as much as they could be aside from common/obvious sets such as z-conversion, or z-belly drum. A lot of the example sets (not all obviously) that people have been posting in places like the creative sets thread, actually do work well in application, and not just on paper. The key factor is to treat z-attacks as a wallbreaker in of itself, giving more power than a choice band/specs would do (for a single move) without having to be locked into just one move. That being said, choosing a mon as your z-move user can be tricky as you're effectively giving up an item slot, and you need to carefully choose the move you're using the z-attack off of, which can require a fair amount of calcs or testing to see if its even worth running. There are also several minor factors about z-moves that many players don't know. For example, you can use a z-status move through taunt, or use any z-attack even if you're encored to another move. I've also heard that z-moves ignore confusion, but I haven't tested that myself. Also remember that z-moves do 25% damage through protect, which in the correct moment, can win a match for you. Unfortunately, normal type z-moves aren't turned into respective types of -ate abilities, so I wouldn't bother trying those sets. (rip z-hyper beam pixilate)

While I have been experimenting here and there with z-moves, doing the fighting core recently really brought it to my attention, which actually ends up being a great example. I've been using Tyke's terrakion set from the thread found here. The biggest threat that this set deals with is defensive mega-venusaur. +2 continental crush enables terrakion to 1hko the max defense set, who would otherwise wall many rock or fighting type teams. Another use in an average match-up where you may not need to necessarily wall break is to guarantee 100% accuracy. I can't count how many battles I've lost from missing something like stone edge, hydro pump, focus blast, etc. So, if you happened to not use the z-move yet, and there's an important mon you need to ko, you don't need to rely on accuracy rng. Obviously, you wouldn't use a z-move just for that reason, but it's an added bonus.

One last thing to remember is while you're gaining a one-time wallbreaking move, you're losing terrakion's item slot. Notably if you were using the SD set anyways, you lose out on the bonus damage of life orb, but you also don't need to worry about the chip damage from LO.

Continental Crush Terrakion
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-527317589
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-526649364

+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 364-429 (100.2 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 312-367 (102.6 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO - Earthquake doesn't 1hko here
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 331-391 (99.1 - 117%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 303-357 (76.9 - 90.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 412-486 (103.5 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 360-424 (118.4 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 259-306 (75.2 - 88.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

There's several other mons I've been using with z-moves with mixed results, nothing worth posting about as of yet. Waterium-z keldeo seems okay with hydro pump and rain dance. Waterium-z araquanid on bug can be an okay wall-breaker as well. More examples/success stories would be great. While this is the monotype discussion thread, I'm not sure if this is the best place to do so though, as I'd imagine this thread is more dedicated towards discussing threats to the meta rather than as a general discussion topic, and topics such as these are better suited in the creative/underrated sets thread (anyone correct me if I'm wrong). Overall though, I think they're a great wild card factor, and when planned appropriately, are a big factor in determining the winner of a matchup.

Eien · Feb 5, 2017

I've been dying to make this post for over a week now, but I really didn't want to until after my seasonal battle. And since we're talking about Z-moves anyway, here's an awesome set I've been using to ridiculous success.

Mew @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Rock Polish

By god this set really just isn't fair in the metagame right now. Double Dance Mew is a ridiculous threat for multiple reasons. First, 100 / 100 / 100 bulk is just crazy. Mew sets up on pretty much anything that isn't using super effective coverage. Like Double Dance Landorus-T, you don't need to set up twice. However, Psychic teams have one of the best utility Pokemon in the game: Deoxys-S. Dual screens support allows Mew to almost always set up twice freely while even sometimes getting a third turn if necessary. Furthermore, this assumes your opponent chooses to stay in and attack Mew. People always expect the utility set or stallbreaker set. Mew can bluff sets so easily that it gets more opportunities to set up. Special attackers often switch into Mew expecting to soak up a Will-O-Wisp or Taunt, but then they find out that Mew literally got a free turn, and nothing in the game can OHKO Mew with screens up, so it gets another turn. Pivots such as Gastrodon and Pelipper also come into Mew very often, and that really opens up the possibility of three free turns. Using this set is just so easy. Set up dual screens with Deoxys-S, bring Mew into a physical attacker or a wall to bluff a utility or stallbreaker set respectively, and just sweep. It's literally A B C.

Unfortunately, as you can probably tell, this set is walled by Psychic-types and Mega Sableye. There's really not much I figured could be done about this. The problem is that Focus Blast is by far the best coverage option, as all other attacks lack power against Dark- and Steel-types. Dropping Nasty Plot makes Mew struggle because it really doesn't have much power without being at least +2. Dropping Rock Polish leaves it weaker to offense, although with the help of Dual Screens Deoxys-S, this is a much more viable option if you really hate losing to Mega Sableye (be aware Calm Mind sets will set up on you anyway unless you use Dazzling Gleam).

Has anyone else been trying out Genesis Supernova? Let me know your thoughts on the set too! It needs support in the form of dual screens and a Mega Sableye check, but other than that it's really been amazing! Psychic did lose Hoopa-U, but this is such an amazing set and I've never loved playing HO Psychic more.

Flying Defensive Core:
+2 252 SpA Mew Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 290-342 (86.8 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 339-399 (90.6 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Zapdos: 298-352 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Normal Eviolite Core:
+4 252 SpA Mew Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 418-494 (59.3 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252 SpA Mew Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 454-536 (121.3 - 143.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Stall Water:
252 SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 357-420 (90.6 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 40 HP / 208+ SpD Lanturn: 330-388 (82.2 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Terrain)
+2 252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 442-522 (109.4 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mew Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 312-368 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 120 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 459-541 (91.6 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Terrain)
+4 252 SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 252 HP / 180 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 369-435 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

stat1c · Feb 5, 2017

Since the meta has begun to settle, I would like to take this opportunity to repropose Magearna as a possible suspect test candidate.

It has a ridiculous ability in Soul Heart which gives it +1 SpA each time a foe faints. Now at first glance, this seemed like a version of Moxie or Beast Boost. However this ability is activated regardless of how a foe faints - whether from status chip damage, hazards damage or even using a move like Healing Wish. Such a trait coming from a mon with 130 base SpA is just ridiculous.
It's a sweeper with 80 HP/115 Def/115 SpD bulk and a fantastic defensive typing being weak to only ground and fire type coverage. It's ground weakness can also be negated temporarily with Air Balloon, giving it a free turn to setup or get a kill to activate Soul Heart.
To aid it's sweeping, it can run either Trick Room or Shift Gear, adding to it's versatility.
It has a very decent movepool with options like Fleur Cannon, Aura Sphere, Focus Blast, Energy Ball, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt and Volt Switch.
It has excellent team support options on both types, notably Dual Screens Klefki, Tapu Bulu and Tapu Fini on Fairy. On Steel it has teammates like Skarmory, Celesteela, Heatran, Excadrill.
What checks and counters does Magearna have? Arguably the only type that Magearna truly fears is Fire. Lightning Rod Marowak-Alola is probably the one true counter that can switch in mid sweep and stop it cold while also enjoying Trick Room as well. Heatran gets blown back by Z-Focus Blast so you can't exactly call it a check for Steel. Specs Volcanion in the sun checks it only if Trick Room is not up and it has no Soul Heart boosts.

Magearna @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Flash Cannon
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt

Magearna @ Air Balloon
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Fleur Cannon
- Ice Beam / Energy Ball
- Thunderbolt

Green = For; Red = Against

vs Heatran: 252+ SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 430-508 (111.3 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs Heatran: 0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna through Light Screen: 96-114 (26.3 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

vs Chansey: +1 252+ SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 432-510 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs Mantine: 252+ SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 292-344 (78.2 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs Toxapex: +1 252+ SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Toxapex: 210-248 (69 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs Groud Excadrill: 252+ SpA Magearna Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 408-482 (113 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs Ground Excadrill: 252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna in Grassy Terrain through Reflect: 123-145 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 32.8% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

vs Ground Mega Garchomp: 252+ SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp-Mega: 238-280 (66.6 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs Ground Mega Garchomp: +2 252 Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna through Reflect: 231-273 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

vs Volcanion: 252+ SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 249-293 (82.4 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs Volcanion: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna through Light Screen: 214-253 (58.7 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs Charizard X: 252+ SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 260-307 (87.5 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

vs Charizard X: 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna through Reflect: 226-267 (62 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Disclaimer: I never use Fairy but for the purposes of proving a point, I made my first Fairy team ever to try to show how anybody and their granny could be decent with it.

I firmly believe Trick Room is the superior set because it gets to invest in full HP, instead of losing bulk by having to put EV's in Speed for Shift Gear.
Z-Focus Blast is a nice nuke with 190 BP (and can't miss) that hits Steel types very hard often times activating Soul Heart. Flash Cannon is steel STAB and Thunderbolt hits Water types that resist steel hard. Notably SpD walls like Mantine, Toxapex and Empoleon
The given nature and EV's put it at 394 SpA before any boosts, which allows it to easily overwhelm offensive mons and get a Soul Heart boost in order to breakthrough SpD walls. Max HP investment adds to its great bulk, especially when bolstered by Dual Screens from Klefki and Grassy Terrain from Tapu Bulu to tank Earthquake.

vs Steel: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-525853503
vs Poison: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-525845582
vs Poison: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-525834966
vs Water: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-526967658

Conclusion:

IMHO, Magearna's presence on Fairy can and has significantly made the Steel and Poison matchups that much easier, even with their Gen 7 additions. It's even more deadly in neutral matchups for Fairy, especially vs types like Ice, Rock and opposing Fairy - such that it was banned provisionally in the Partner Monothreat Tour.
Likewise for Steel, it's a huge threat in the Fighting matchup with it's Fairy STAB, - a type that only has a HO playstyle. It can also tip the neutral matchups of Dragon and Dark heavily in Steel's favour. Steel can also run IceBeam/Tbolt or Tbolt/EnergyBall to make the Flying and Water/Ground matchups that much easier, respectively.

Wish9 · Feb 7, 2017

Eien said:
I've been dying to make this post for over a week now, but I really didn't want to until after my seasonal battle. And since we're talking about Z-moves anyway, here's an awesome set I've been using to ridiculous success.

Mew @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Rock Polish

By god this set really just isn't fair in the metagame right now. Double Dance Mew is a ridiculous threat for multiple reasons. First, 100 / 100 / 100 bulk is just crazy. Mew sets up on pretty much anything that isn't using super effective coverage. Like Double Dance Landorus-T, you don't need to set up twice. However, Psychic teams have one of the best utility Pokemon in the game: Deoxys-S. Dual screens support allows Mew to almost always set up twice freely while even sometimes getting a third turn if necessary. Furthermore, this assumes your opponent chooses to stay in and attack Mew. People always expect the utility set or stallbreaker set. Mew can bluff sets so easily that it gets more opportunities to set up. Special attackers often switch into Mew expecting to soak up a Will-O-Wisp or Taunt, but then they find out that Mew literally got a free turn, and nothing in the game can OHKO Mew with screens up, so it gets another turn. Pivots such as Gastrodon and Pelipper also come into Mew very often, and that really opens up the possibility of three free turns. Using this set is just so easy. Set up dual screens with Deoxys-S, bring Mew into a physical attacker or a wall to bluff a utility or stallbreaker set respectively, and just sweep. It's literally A B C.

Unfortunately, as you can probably tell, this set is walled by Psychic-types and Mega Sableye. There's really not much I figured could be done about this. The problem is that Focus Blast is by far the best coverage option, as all other attacks lack power against Dark- and Steel-types. Dropping Nasty Plot makes Mew struggle because it really doesn't have much power without being at least +2. Dropping Rock Polish leaves it weaker to offense, although with the help of Dual Screens Deoxys-S, this is a much more viable option if you really hate losing to Mega Sableye (be aware Calm Mind sets will set up on you anyway unless you use Dazzling Gleam).

Has anyone else been trying out Genesis Supernova? Let me know your thoughts on the set too! It needs support in the form of dual screens and a Mega Sableye check, but other than that it's really been amazing! Psychic did lose Hoopa-U, but this is such an amazing set and I've never loved playing HO Psychic more.

Flying Defensive Core:
+2 252 SpA Mew Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 290-342 (86.8 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 339-399 (90.6 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Zapdos: 298-352 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Normal Eviolite Core:
+4 252 SpA Mew Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 418-494 (59.3 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252 SpA Mew Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 454-536 (121.3 - 143.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Stall Water:
252 SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 357-420 (90.6 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 40 HP / 208+ SpD Lanturn: 330-388 (82.2 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Terrain)
+2 252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 442-522 (109.4 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mew Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 312-368 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 120 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 459-541 (91.6 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Terrain)
+4 252 SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 252 HP / 180 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 369-435 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I agree, Genesis Supernova Mew is scary, especially for Poison teams that lost Alola Muk because once Mew sets up one Rock Polish, Scarfed Gengar gets outsped and Scolipede would need to get lucky with 2 protects (which can be completely negated if Mew predicts that and sets up ANOTHER Rock Polish).

Namranan · Feb 7, 2017

WARNING: I did not expect this post to be as large as it became, brace yourself through a wall of text.

Alright time to talk about one of my topic starters: Z-moves on powerful sweepers.

I have two sets that I would like to show you guys, Z-mirror move honchkrow and Z-tailwind Salamance.

The Honch:

The Honch (Honchkrow) @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty/Naive Nature
- Mirror Move
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower
- Heat Wave

I refuse to make a lengthy essay on this, as I'm merely talking about what this set is and how they can truly improve a pokemon suffering from restrictive item(s).

Honchkrow is a mon that could be really good, were it not for its lackluster speed. It can revenge kill sweepers, but sometimes its power isn't quite enough. Z-mirror move boosts honchkrow's attack by +2 which makes it really threatening to a lot of mons, not only that, but it will also still use the Z-version of the last offensive move used against honchkrow. From what I have seen, the Z-mirrored version of an offensive move will have the BP of the Z-boosted move if the opposing mon used it. Not only this, but it will break through protections with 1/4 power, which is good against frail protect spammers. As you can tell, this is extremely good when it comes to revenge killing. If you get the kill as well, you will already have +3 attack with one move. The only other way you could do that is with fell stinger, but Z-mirror move can kill at much higher percents.

Unfortunately, if the opponent switches out, you will not get the Z-move off and only get the attack boost, which sucks. Also obnoxious people on the ladder will play insane mindgames with your sucker punch, so be careful with it, because one screwup can cost you the game. Please note that the boost in the attack stat happens before the Z-move. Also I did not come up with this on my own, someone else did, but I don't remember his name (and yes it was a he).

I don't really have any calcs to show you as this isn't going to be extremely in depth, but if you guys want to try this set out, go ahead.
Here are some replays that will show you how I used it though:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-522668073 <- this shows how useful honchkrow is at cleanup.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-522834410 <- Had I used honchkrow earlier, i could have saved a few of my mons, but it still kills umbreon.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-522838741 <- Amazing example of how good at revenge killing the honch is.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-523911698 <- It isn't quite gg when Dpulse charizard tries to kills the honch.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-531127255 <- Honchkrow literally turned the tides of this match.

Salamancer

Salamence @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Tailwind
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang/Any coverage move really

This started off as a joke, but then it got out of hand when it started winning me games.

Basically when it comes to salamance, it has the same problem honchkrow has, except it has speed. Despite having this speed, it can die really quick due to its typing which loses momentum. While this set doesn't solve any of those problems that I just listed, it does make good usage of his role on a team. Z-tailwind gives salamance a +2 crit ratio, along with regular tailwind. This makes salamence a nice utility in case it dies to an unavoidable threat like weavile or Ice fang +1 speed Sharpedo. HOWEVER, what makes this set really scary is the fact that with that additional crit chance, salamance can KO mons with defense and special defense buffs AND raise its attack with moxie, by the way, this is still under tailwind which can literally outspeed everything in the metagame except scarfed Deo-speed and tailwinded base 100 speed mons.

Unfortunately, this set is only good when you can wall/predict a switch as it requires minimal setup. Using this as a lead usually results in death, and late game sweeping can be much easier if you save your salamance. I recently made this set up myself when I was getting uber salty about a match i lost, so there aren't a lot of replays for it.
Nonetheless, here are some replays that can help you anyhow:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-529165133 <- SURPRISE!
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-527779792 <- Usually rocks and fire give me a hard time, but not with the salamancer on my side.

I did not think this post was going to be so long O_O. Nonetheless, what do you guys think of these? Again they aren't super good, but they are pretty darned useful when used right.

EDIT: I may update this with more replays to see how some of these sets work.

vlmufa · Feb 13, 2017

For a while now I wanted to bring up a very interesting mon, or set rather, that caught my attention while laddering.

Greninja @ Normalium Z
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Happy Hour

Ice Beam
Dark Pulse
Hydro Pump/Surf
Grass Knot
Extrasensory
Hidden Power

Gunk Shot
Low Kick
Shadow Sneak
Rock Slide(?)

Pros
This set may or may not be the most optimal set for either water or dark monotype but it definitely is a threat to watch out for. Normalium Z Happy Hour gives Greninja a boost to every one of its stats, making it a great late game sweeper as it outspeeds pretty much every scarfer in this tier and also greatly boosts its mixed offensive potential. It has a pretty wide mixed movepool which makes it great because of Protean. It can run whatever coverage you feel like your team needs and can sweep with as long as it gets a decent matchup.

Cons
Greninjas bad bulk doesn't always allow it to set up, however since it's fast the +1 defenses might help. With Happy Hour taking up a slot it also has a hard time picking its 3 moves as it needs to use all the coverage it can get to abuse those average attack stats.

So I was wondering, what are everyones thoughts on this mon/set?

Fírnen · Feb 13, 2017

I don't think Greninja has the bulk to use Z-Happy Hour. Ok, it may be fun to use but I don't think it's even good than LO set.
Why? Because you lose one slot ( decrease type coverage) and as we said, its bulk isn't good enough.
Another reason is the presence of Haze user who is more often this gen with Toxapex mainly (and Mantine in another way), both are able to resist to +1 Atk/Sp.Atk Stabbed super effective move:
+1 252 SpA Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 242-288 (79.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 4 Atk Protean Greninja Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Mantine: 230-272 (61.6 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(if super effective moves isn't used, it's easy for these 2 Pokemon resist).

Next, priority user may revenge kill, I think to Dnite Espeed, Bisharp Sucker Punch (You rarely start with 100% life Greninja).

In my opinion, it's more a gimmick set than a really competitive, you can disagree with what I said.

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