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Project Solopl III Post-Tour Lookback Thread

Gekokeso

Mind the bad garmmar.
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With the ending of the Solomods Premier League and the victory of the Mid Metangs it is time to look back at the tour. While this tour wasn't clean by any means I'm generally happy and satisfied with the general atmosphere of this edition, as for the first time we ran an 8 team team tournament to relative success. I'd like to thank my fellow hosts in Snaquaza, OceanicGamer and ESPECIALLY my goat Murphy Lawden for their help in running this tournament. I would also like to thank the community for coming together in such an event that celebrates the great metagames that have been created in this little corner of Smogon.

This thread will be reserved for criticisms and ideas of how to improve the tournament for future editions. What went well and how to repeat it. What went wrong and how to fix it going foward. This can include criticisms towards the way us hosts held the tournament as well, to see what we can improve on as hosts as well. While I won't outright ban discussion about the tiers themselves in this thread, I heavily recommend voicing concerns or ideas of how to improve a particular metagame on their respective threads, you can find them linked in the posts that appear here.

With that I am tagging all managers of the tour and encourage them to get their players to comment as well. Please keep posts as respectful as you can.
:Dusknoir: Dave's Dusknoirs - Larry + Mana :Dusknoir:
:Metang: Mid Metangs - Jumpheart + Noglastica :Metang:
:slugma: Slugmas Slugmas Slugmas - Quinn + NecasInTrouble :slugma:
:gourgeist: Workers' Union of Gourgsokyo - anaconja + FlamPoke :gourgeist:
:Gallade: Gallade Gladiators - JeoZ + Zpice :Gallade:
:starly: Stamford Starlies - CoruptedUsername + AnnadeNeko :starly:
:espurr: Earnest Espurrs - GhastlyPixie + Clas :espurr:
img_5693-png.792988
Terrifying Tanukiefs - Concept + Cow + Spammernoob
img_5693-png.792988
 
good tour this year, very solid lineup too, this was probably the first pet mods tournament ever where the most defining issues weren’t related to the lineup. the tier edit restriction still sucks and there were some pretty major decision-making hiccups from the hosts imo, but idc enough to relitigate either of those so i’m just gonna review the lineup instead.

PoA: I tested this tier a bit in the early weeks but otherwise didn’t really touch it, shit looked to me like balance hell with centralizing elements and from what i’ve heard i was pretty much right in that assumption. the mood on this tier was pretty low in teamchat and the community felt extremely isolated from the tour (did we get a single mainer even supporting a team besides flampoke and jas?). don’t really care to see this one again without major edits.

Monster Hunter OU: This mod was a mess but it was a funny mess. For pretty much the entire tour the tier was dominated by various broken elements, and each balance patch just gave new brokens a chance to shine, to the point where benji and i gentlemanned to not bring 3 of the brokemons in finals because it would just make the matchup boring. Things are shaping up well for the future of the tier and things are already significantly different from solopl with more massive changes on the way, plus the playerbase was generally pretty active during the tour, so i’d be down to see this in a future solopl (i think my team will crucify me for this take tho lol).

Do Not Use: not much to say on this one, it’s a mainstay for a reason. mod has never really been my cup of tea but i respect its existence.

Fusion Evolution VGC: The meta seemed pretty stinky this year but I’m unable to judge VGC mods so I’d like to hear thoughts on this from the ppl who actually played.

Legends ZA OU: Ngl i am very down on this mod. Shit got signups, sure, but discussion of the mod was pretty much zero and changes were made constantly with no care at all for the ongoing tour. Once the hype has died down next year i have no desire to see this mod get slotted again, and i don’t think its leadership would care either way.

Modern Gen 2: qsns refused to load Dusknoir so this tier fucking sucks

Touhoumons: The vibes were quite good with this one, ppl seemed to enjoy the meta even with the unbalanced elements and discussion was common. There is also apparently a massive post-tour patch already released with a bunch of blance changes as well as new mons, so this is already on track to be a good fit for next year.

Best Wishes from YB: Oldgen players seemed to enjoy this mod, which I think is a good sign. The meta is a little unbalanced but for a completely untested mod for a format that came out 16 years ago I think it did amazing. I’d support this mod for another run, especially if yoshi releases a post-tour balance patch.


i am very interested in hearing from the actual players for all of these formats, particularly with how they were to play, so pls do post thoughts in their respective threads if u have them
 
Regarding Za OU, I think Zardy would be close to being banworthy if it weren't for things like Heatran and Garchomp (the latter not being entirely effective).
but Baxcalibur even more so. Its a Pokémon with a high setup potential against most of the tier's strong Pokémon, such as Rotom (very common and good for the tier) , Slowbro, and Slowking. Even some fast Pokémon like Starmie and Krokorok can provide enough momentum to make it unstoppable. Furthermore, with the right EV spread, it could become bulky enough to avoid being revenge killed by Pokemon like Mega Lucario or Keldeo

I say all this based on experience. In my series against Mada on the money tour semifinals, it was clear that with a good EV spread, this can become an unkillable sweeping machine.
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And again in the solopl finals, its strength was evident once again.

In the final game (which wasn't a tiebreak), its power was on full display once more. I think that if it hadn't been for my Mega Zardy and a bit of luck, I could have gotten more than one kill per entry from that Baxcalabur of Charliezard.

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All of that plus taking into acc that in a core with Galar Slowking it takes advantage of the Hail defense and becomes even bulkier and more dangerous
 
The restriction on how many tiering actions we were allowed to make to our metagames during the duration of the tournament made it very hard for us to balance ZA OU and made most of the council and community die out as a result because we felt pressured to make all of our changes in one fell swoop to not exceed the 3 action maximum. Please don't restrict the actions solomods are allowed to make to this extreme in the future.

Legends ZA OU: Ngl i am very down on this mod. Shit got signups, sure, but discussion of the mod was pretty much zero and changes were made constantly with no care at all for the ongoing tour.
This feels disingenuous, we felt like we couldn't make any changes despite the new Z-A DLC just dropping like how most normal tiers do quickbans etc because of the restrictions placed on us, not the other way around. We would've done more tiering if it weren't for the limit we had.
 
This feels disingenuous, we felt like we couldn't make any changes despite the new Z-A DLC just dropping like how most normal tiers do quickbans etc because of the restrictions placed on us, not the other way around. We would've done more tiering if it weren't for the limit we had.
my apologies if this reading was incorrect but it seemed to me during the tour that SoloPL was not a priority for ZA leadership. it sounds like yall factored it in more than expected so my bad if i was misinterpreting
 
POA is just a victim of having a small playerbase. I don't think it has any aggressively bad issues and I don't think it needs to have a large sense of community or a mainer quota to be considered good, just come up with a concept & dedicate some time to rigorously test your teams and you should be fine (playing vs samples + team recreations were very nice to help refine my teams). Mood my prep channel was low because I find prepping throughout the week boring. Would be cool to have it back for another season.
 
POA is just a victim of having a small playerbase. I don't think it has any aggressively bad issues and I don't think it needs to have a large sense of community or a mainer quota to be considered good, just come up with a concept & dedicate some time to rigorously test your teams and you should be fine (playing vs samples + team recreations were very nice to help refine my teams). Mood my prep channel was low because I find prepping throughout the week boring. Would be cool to have it back for another season.
It has a big playerbase, it however does not have a big playerbase on Smogon which is the main difference.

I’ll make a bigger post later tonight / tomorrow, I just thought it was funny how SoloPL got a spam bot to reply in this thread.
 
Even if it had its balancing issues Monster Hunter clears every tier in this tournament off sheer aura nothing tops being able to use Dire Miralis Oltura Bloodbath Diablos etc etc etc and God I would love to see this format come back next year

I don't care too much about it personally but people seem to want more freedom with tiering changes instead of being limited to just 3 so ig up that for next year. I think Monster Hunter had a good workaround, where they had the "base" format that could be updated as many times as they desired and the "SoloPL" format that only got the big/accumulated updates. It did mean that some of the busted stuff would stick around for a week or two in the tour but it still felt fine in the end and meant that the format that the majority of the playerbase was interacting with wasn't stagnant and could address any issues as soon as possible. Maybe ZA could have done something similar if that was an issue but idk I don't care about that tier
 
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Tiers were fairly decent this year, there were some hiccups with moves and abilities not working as intended, but administratively there were some things that could be improved upon.

Metagame Updates - Hard capping formats with the ability to update their metagame comes with a steep cost of not allowing the metagame as many opportunities to fix their meta throughout the duration of the tournament which can negatively affect their active playerbase and not just the overall tournament's flow. ZA suffered as a whole which isn't something we should be striving for as a tournament. Because of this issue, i'd like to say that administratively each metagame should have a sort of "SoloPL" version hosted on whatever server we are using at the time of the tournament, this allows the communities to continue their metagame progression even with a limitation for SoloPL. This also ensures that people are using the correct challenge codes by not having to go all over the place to find whatever side server we need to play the metagame. PoA had a SoloPL ladder for this exact purpose on pokeathalon which was highly appreciated and allowed their metagame to continue improving without any semblance of a limitation.

Before a change occurs on the server and is announced, please have some test games linked to showcase what the issue was and the resolved move or ability. This was it ensures that the fix was properly implemented and showcases it to the participating teams.

Metagame Selection - Although the formats themselves I believed were fine, there should be a higher discrepancy on the metagame as a whole. Some of the available formats had very limited playerbase before the tournament and it shows. There should be people selected to test these formats to find any glaring flaws in power levels. A few mini tours leading up to the start of the tournament would have an impact and would be greatly appreciated. Personally as much as I liked playing and building in Best Wishes from YB it was incredibly imbalanced with the entire metagame revolving around either being sand or beating sand, I understand in particular it is difficult to balance this metagame with a very limited selection of pokemon, but because of the overall structure of the format you have to heavily invest in offensive pressure. The main pokemon that stood out to me were Terrakion, Hydreigon and Genesect.

Terrakion - Virtually unchanged, on paper losing 10 attack may have had an impact in a normal metagame, however defensively very few things can actually check this pokemon. Landorus-Therian can take anywhere from 1-4 stone edges, but after that the defensive checks are nearly nonexistent with the sole exception of Golurk, which is quite frankly not a good pokemon. The -1 base speed has no impact in the metagame as the only thing this helps with is Galvantula which is already a speed tie. Keldeo was a semi-reliable change with it losing 10 speed, but it also has a very good check in Jellicent, so its weird that Terrakion didn't get this treatment as well as it was proven to be an overbearing breaker.

Genesect - Why the fuck did we buff it

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This may seem misleading considering that it lost 30 attack and 22 speed, but giving it over 40 points in bulk and 10 SpA as a potent breaker with strong special coverage for every relevant metagame threat was arguably a mistake, it just made it significantly harder to kill with a stronger hitting attack in response. In most cases you're running U-Turn as the sole physical attack, so this was just an oversight. Per the metagame base 77 is still usable, so giving it a slower speed stat was a step in the right direction, but this wasn't nearly enough.

Hydreigon - People have already talked about this mon quite a bit, so i'm just gonna preface this and say ban gems. This + Terrakion could not effectively be walled together. The sole answer I was able to find that was actually a viable check was Virizion, but because of Sand and Rain you will have a slim chance of being able to come in multiple times. This Pokemon really showed its strength when all of its checks and revengers are gone.

I'm not shitting on the tier, it was just annoying that the best playstyle was locked into offense or bulky offense because the breaking power in the tier far outweighs everything else. Movepool distributions should be changed to help lower / increase the power level of mons, there were newer moves such as Tachyon Cutter, but mons kept their original movepools which I think is a mistake to do unfortunately. Some pokemon suffered from not having a place in the metagame which is okay, but when sand and rain are so overwhelmingly dominant, underperforming or missing pokemon should probably get a buff to adjust to the offensively oriented metagame. (Sticky Webs Leavanny for example would have been something possible to implement and would inhibit offense as a structure.)

Managers and Activity - Any changes with managers should be addressed and announced, for the uninformed Quinn left the petmod discord on week 4 or 5 because his team was doing bad, yet nothing was announced. It's unbecoming and unprofessional to leave the tournament midway through and not say anything. 2 or 3 of his players hadn't even scheduled until Sunday on Week 7 when the opposing team was actively fighting for playoff contention which is not okay, this is ignoring the fact that one of his players just gave the opponent the win. The other 2 series were missing games as well, they didn't matter in the scheme of things, but it was very unfortunate and sad to see. There has to be action taken to prevent this in the future, otherwise it will reflect negatively on the tournament as a whole in the future.

Lastly, thank you for selecting me as a manager, I had a blast throughout the tour an hope that future iterations pick up the traction that the CA brought this year.
 
Solopl3 Lookback

Tier Selection Committee and Process - I definitely think this was a good idea to have, though I wish that there had been more community involvement in terms of actually joining and vetting the tiers. It was essentially Geko and Beaf doing all of the testing, I showed up halfway through and could really only talk about MG2 and Yoshi BW. As much as I hate to say it, I do think Soda does have a point that there should probably be a several day grace period between when tier submissions close and when they are actually decided on. I will admit I was personally opposed (though only slightly) against 33 Valuemons at the time, and definitely would not have voted for it in the poll had it been included. In hindsight, it probably should have been included in the poll. That being said, the main purpose of submitting tiers to be approved is to ensure they have resources and have been played much more, so submitting the tier five minutes before the deadline isn't exactly the best impression either. I also think having the poll at the end was nice, but ideally will not be necessary in the future.

Restricting Changes During Solopl - This has been the point of discussion so far in this thread. I would like to point out the complete reversal from last year. Solopl1 was largely just people already involved in petmods, so when 7/8 tiers had midtour changes and bans, this wasn't really an issue because, believe it or not, we are used to playing bad metagames. However, during solopl2, the Dave Invasion and general increase in tour mainers signing up brought more players from outside the petmod community. The main complaint I remember from the most recent PMPL and solopl were that tiers changed too frequently. Again, believe it or not, but many petmods and solomods are relatively unbalanced due to a number of factors. This lack of balancing means that there naturally will need to be nerfs, buffs, and bans throughout the course of solopl. Players were frustrated that metagames shifted heavily every single week (or two) because of how many changes needed to be made. The "limit three changes during solopl" restriction was introduced to counter this. I'm not really sure the best course of action. I think the current rule is fair as you can still make three separate changes to the tier over the course of the tour. There are only 9 total weeks, and ideally there aren't any changes that are getting made during playoffs either, so realistically you have three changes to make between weeks 1-7. To be completely honest, I think if your tier needs to be making more changes than that, it probably should not have been in solopl anyway.

The restriction on how many tiering actions we were allowed to make to our metagames during the duration of the tournament made it very hard for us to balance ZA OU and made most of the council and community die out as a result because we felt pressured to make all of our changes in one fell swoop to not exceed the 3 action maximum. Please don't restrict the actions solomods are allowed to make to this extreme in the future.


This feels disingenuous, we felt like we couldn't make any changes despite the new Z-A DLC just dropping like how most normal tiers do quickbans etc because of the restrictions placed on us, not the other way around. We would've done more tiering if it weren't for the limit we had.

ZA OU is obviously a unique case because it has a much larger playerbase than the entirety of the petmods community, so it was always going to be getting included. I still don't think it should be that hard to balance with three total changes. I will also add, seemingly there were zero changes that ZA even made during the course of solopl? The only patch came at the very beginning of week one so clearly this restriction did not matter? Concept and iguan both pointed out that POA and MH had their separate solopl formats so, while that is not ideal, I don't think there is any harm in considering it for ZA in the future.

Thoughts on the Newcomers

POA - Runo somewhat already addressed our teams thoughts on it. I think I'm less of a fan of this tier than Runo is but it's definitely fine. I was more down on the tier in the middle of the tour when it felt pretty solved, but I think Runo showed me there is more room for creativity. I still think Starhuz is stupid and Starfall is the worst designed ability ever. Council can try and convince me otherwise but making a good mon and then giving it an ability that just removes hazards on entry is stupid. Yes it can be pursuited but all the pursuiters are awful. The Loxicant guy I think is also a bit overtuned. It's not broken or overly strong, but it's too good in the sense that you can in theory just remove fairy types from the game with it (outside palde I guess), and it's also just a good mon on top of that. You're giving it 90bp steel type pursuit or whatever on a poison/steel levitate mon with knock, spin, defog, rocks, and other coverage. You look at something like Magnezone or Magnegauss even in POA, and it's a not great mon that has a niche of being able to just delete a type that your team can abuse. Loxicant is just a good mon who you can already just bring normally, and then you give it rocket grab. Too much in my opinion. Obviously Niander is broken but I don't think debilitatingly so to the tier, a minor stat nerf I think is fine and teams can already tech hp fire for it.

MH - Did not touch this tier, I don't think I can confidently talk about it but seemingly pretty unbalanced, had far and away the most changes made. That being said, people seemingly did enjoy this tier even if it was not balanced. For a tier that was included because it would get a bunch of signups, it was basically smack in the middle in terms of the number of players that signed up with BW and POA being the lowest, and ZA and DNU being the highest.

VGC - VGC was a tier that was pretty highly praised in solopl1-2 but I think the playerbase enjoyed it much less this time around. I'm not sure if it was just the new mons, or if it is just that the higher level of play meant a greater understanding of the tier and therefore allowed the players to see its flaws. Not really sure. VGC was previously a lock but if there are other VGC submissions next year I wouldn't be opposed to considering them instead. That being said, the FE VGC sprites are always fantastic and it is visually fun to watch live (though watching with replays you don't get the sprites and it becomes ass to watch grrrr).

ZA - Did not touch the tier, see OLK's thoughts above. I will say that I think other players on our team were not impressed by Yard compared to OLK so I suppose you can take that into consideration.

Touhou - Touhoumons was a tier that Beaf (sorry I'm throwing you under the bus) in particular was somewhat skeptical of because it was changed pretty severely after its initial tour which had just ended which is why it was not immediately approved. It was convincingly voted in and, while the metagame was certainly not perfect, I think probably had the happiest playerbase out of any tier in the tour and should definitely be in the next iteration of solopl.

BW - I had fun playing the tier in initial testing but I thought it would be a bit unbalanced and I think I might have been right. I was a bit surprised to see that it actually won the vote, I thought surely scootopia would be included again (which I also wasn't ecstatic about either) but it turns out the people crave oldgen. It seemed like the players were generally in favor of this tier, though I'll be honest I might be more inclined to see this slot get subbed out in solopl4. I hate to say it but 33 Valuemons could be a better replacement here. I don't hate the inclusion of BW, but I think it was a bit risky and could have been much worse considering the game had like 5 games played ever before it was originally submitted.

Wont really address DNU and MG2 because of bias and because they've been in solopl all three iterations so it seems like they are less conversational to begin with. It seemed to me like the players in these tiers did not hate them.

Only slots I have locked for next year are ZA, DNU, and Touhou. I think POA would be a fine inclusion, I think we need a VGC rep as always and most likely FE VGC would be the best option and I wouldn't be upset about that. Obviously I would want MG2 back but I will let others give their thoughts on that. Not a huge fan on MH but if the players really do like it I wouldn't be super opposed. Somewhat against Yoshi BW being brought back.

Hosting Decisions - I won't really go into details, and wasn't really planning on talking about this publicly but Geko made the thread for I'm assuming this general purpose, but during finals there were several somewhat questionable decisions I think regarding subs. I would say as a general rule that asking TDs can never do any harm if there is any doubt about a ruling. I get that the petmod forum might not be their number one concern, and that petmods in particular has some unique decisions that need to be made in certain cases, but for more general questions like subs then I don't think asking TDs is ever a bad idea.

Regarding the issue of more solopl specific rulings, I think this can be mainly done in-house. I suppose for the case of MG2 there might need to be more enforcement on if tiers can be played on DH or challenge command on main. This was a very, very big issues with MG4 where ash-gren was legal on main but not DH, Terapagos was legal on DH but not main (or vice versa I can't remember), and then like 30% of hidden abilities didn't work on DH but did work on main. Obviously that dramatically changes the landscape of what you can and cannot bring. R8 wanted me to mention this but, during tiebreak, originally the MG2 game should have been played on main challenge command because replays on DH were broken, but then it was discovered that the coding on main had changed and all of a sudden knocked items could not be hit with poltergeist (this was not the case for the history of MG2!) which is a minor change from DH but still notable enough that the game was to be played on DH to keep it consistent with the rest of the tour despite replays being broken.
 
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