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Gen 8 SS NU Discussion
- Thread starter Rabia
- Start date
I've had a lot of thoughts, innovations, fun team concepts, and more from this last NUPL and from watching NUFL, so now that I'm out, consider this the post I've been holding back on to hide some stuff for a while now. To start, I just want to say that I'm really really happy to see all these new players start to take an interest in this tier. I've been advocating for it for ages, but it gets a bad rap from the end of cg when people got lazy and burnt out because they used Scarf Mowtom as a Vaporeon answer. Because of this, for the last two years, most people have just been reusing really bad teams without actually considering how the tier works, something that both bothered me a lot and led to really shitty gaming experiences that I knew were avoidable. So for me, seeing this rise in both play and innovation has me feeling fulfilled in many senses because I love this tier and know what it could've been. I hope that we see even more interest over the next few tours from people and that all you new guys stick around and spread the SS NU gospel. In short, sign up for SSPL, NUCL, and next NUPL, get discussion going here, and also feel free to tag me for games or builder help :)
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Now time for the newly trademarked "Slice State of the Metagame Address" because I have a lot of things to say on the meta right now. In general, I think it's in a really good spot and that it seems like people have really been enjoying it. People have gotten much more creative in the builder and we're seeing a plethora of different cores, styles, and mons make appearances, including the rise of more niche ones like Jellicent in NUFL, which I think proves a clear rise in development and interest. Speaking for myself, I've personally been experimenting with some new cores, ideas, and spreads as partially seen below and from my NUPL run and I'm having a lot of fun with the tier. There's so much more to explore and build with which is awesome.
With all of this new interest, I'd love to hear what other people feel about the meta, specifically on some of the brokens and if they think the tier needs any action. We're far past the days of calling for a Mowtom or G-Vally ban for many reasons, but I can't help but still feel like Vileplume is a toxic presence in the tier that might warrant action. Players are much better at dealing with the mon in play than in the past, but for me, the builder influence and way it warps gameplay have always felt restrictive in a way that drives me a little crazy. I know of the older players where everyone stands on Plume give or take, but I'm really curious how the new players have felt about Vileplume and if they would welcome action on it or not. I personally feel like it would be a good quality of life change with minimal effects on the meta, but maybe others feel differently which is ok.
Here are some other rapid fire thoughts I've had on the tier: AV Copper is the best Steel in the tier by a good margin, but should probably be paired with a Wish passer, and SR Copper is underrated; heavy hitter teams that put emphasis on mons that can pressure offensively are still feeling much better and more consistent to me than teams that are more passive, but I haven't been liking most BO right now personally, so I guess I see strong balances as golden right now?; there's a ton of room for innovation and development left in the tier which is awesome, I just hope people stop loading Substitute guys into me @ damien; Ttrum, Grimm, Glastrier, and somehow Eggy-A are seeing way too low usage; I think we need to collectively move away from these really bad Scarf Passimian builds that see occasional use because they all have losing vibes, especially the Passimian + Eldegoss ones; and as always please please please use Vaporeon answers and not Scarf Mowtom.
Feel free to take whatever sound bite you want here in or out of context and talk about it here. Let's get some discussion going now as we go into SSPL.
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With that being said, gonna specifically team dump here with small techs, move set changes, mons, and core concepts from building sessions or previous tours that I want to talk about, so not every team from my past few runs. I've had some really proud builder moments (and some less so) so let's get into it.
Aerodactyl @ Power Herb
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Sky Attack
This was a set that I began to theorize a while back when I initially felt really critical of DD Aero. I hated the fact that it seemed to need its checks entirely gone before I felt like it could win and that it had a clear lack of power, even with LO, that let it get soft checked by a lot of things beyond just the Ground-types. It confused me because SM Aero was just so much more threatening than SS Aero was, even beyond the Pursuit dynamics, until I realized that it had a lot to do with Z-Moves and the way that they allowed Aero to get a one time nuke to get through its checks, so I went searching to see if it still got Sky Attack. As anyone who's dmed me or tested with me the last 2 months will tell you, I fell in love with this set and we've now seen it pop up across a few NUFL and NUPL games because of those convos and tests I think. The concept isn't new obviously, but it was something I'd seen maybe once in SS NU ever and it felt to me like I had just solved DD Aero. Z-Aero as I was calling this set finally gave this mon the ability to beat its checks at +1 for the first time (the calcs were amazing and I'll paste them below), specifically Gastrodon. LO had more power on its moves and could Aqua Tail into G-Vally and Muds, but LO to me felt harder to set up and still couldn't get through Gastro, making this a really cool and viable example of set differentiation.
Building tip: DD Aeros, specifically non boots non roost, but also every version of Aero DD or not ngl, needs to be paired with a secondary Salazzle check. I messed with stuff like Gastro + Aero, Vap + Aero, and even had a Guzz + Aero thing going at some point. I also recommend Jolly>Ada on most teams bar HO because of the speed tiers. On HO, having the extra power at +1 to guarantee an OHKO on G-Vally without rocks, get an Edge kill on Mowtom, and more goes a long way.
Here were a few teams I made or used with it, but it can generally be swapped for just about any DD Aero set on any team. I do think there are times you'll want LO though, so just check what your team needs:
Very basic, but powerful, team that showcases Z-Aero really well. The offensive core of Aero + NP Croak + AV Copper is fantastic for breaking down teams and tearing through Ground-types. Vaporeon here acts as the secondary Salazzle check and cleric for our main Ground answer and spinner Dhelm. Dhelm deserves more usage if you can fit it on teams (!). We saw this team used twice in NUPL, once by me against The Goomy where Aero won without clicking the Z-Move and once when OBB haxed pdt shown above. Very happy with this build and very easy to pilot.
This is definitely a more fun version that's been a joy to use in test games. Here, the very underrated Centiskorch does the job of AV Copper on the other team, providing a tough wallbreaker that can threaten the same mons Aero wants gone. Paired with it here is a NP Mowtom as the primary Vap answer and removal together with Gastro + Staka + Scrafty to deal with Salazzle. Overall, a ton of fun, but if I were to ever bring something like this to a proper tournament game, I would make it Scarf Mowtom to help revenge mons and deal with G-Vally. I'd maybe add a more fancy Centi spread as well.
Wooooo another Vaporeon team! On a serious note, I wanted to share a more basic version of the Z-Aero + NP Mow core for people because I think it's quite strong and arguably our best removal, and although I had a few non Vap version, I think this build is one that's easy to pilot. Aero + Lazzle here help cover the speed issues involved with using NP Mow while also helping chip each others checks (a Sludge Poison on Gastro nearly guarantees a Z-Aero sweep later). Very self explainable.
Garbodor @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Stomping Tantrum / Seed Bomb / Haze
- Pain Split
- Spikes
It's no secret that Spikes as a move are broken and a great way to fish and c-team someone like myself who doesn't use Xatu, but that they're held back by the current setters we have. Of all of them, I've come to the conclusion that, outside of Froslass lead HO, Garbodor is probably the best setter. It has some strong traits as a physical answer, can outspeed and threaten things like Eggy-A, and has the ability to Spike on a lot of things like Copper, Guzz, Sylveon, and Vileplume. What holds it back is its intense 4mss and lack of traits as a Vap answer, super threatening offensive threat, G-Vally answer, physical set up blanket, and Knock machine that the other 5 meta Poison-types offer teams. With that being said though, it adds much more imo than any other Spiker (so far I've tested with Ferro and Accelgor while theorizing Qwil) and I think that Spikes as a concept are worth exploring more in this tier, despite how difficult it is to build with it. I also know this isn't a perfect spread at all and that one with a little SpD and less speed is ideal, but it's ok. Mess with it on your own.
To cover the inherent weaknesses to a team comp that will come by using Garb (lack of speed primarily, hard to fit a Lazzle answers, needing to beat Xatu, etc), I've found that Garb + Aero + Dhelm had a ton of potential to me as a core on paper thanks to its compression, although it became really difficult to fill out afterwords. I highly recommend trying your own hand on this concept, but in reality, I also found that it was possible to play without removal if you're running Spikes, so I also built a bunch without it during NUPL. It probably didn't help that my original concept was to use Escav + Spikes into damien that week, but I moved away from that idea a few times as shown below.
I thought this concept was quite interesting, albeit Scrafty weak. Maybe it should be Haze Garb. Either way, good amount of Knock + Spikes + a more offensive Vap answer in Heliolisk who really loves the extra chip to be able to do anything. Solid starting place.
I used this team without a spinner in NUPL against damien and both got unlucky and played really badly in a not great mu, but I generally liked the concept. Scrafty here helps deal with a lot of these builds types of issues while still providing a consistent way to deal with Vap and check Eggy-A which causes this team issues. Sad game, but a team concept I was pretty cool with.
Silvally-Fairy @ Fairy Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Multi-Attack
- Rock Slide
- U-turn/Flame Charge
I think it's about time that we begin to use Silvally-Fairy a lot more. It's always been a mon that's been naturally in the shadow of G-Vally and Sylveon, but when you needed the speed tier of G-Vally and don't want to go super slow with a Sylv or already had a Ground-type on your team, this was a guy who was always there for you. I'd like to argue that it deserves a ton more usage for the traits it provides as a fat semi bulky Fairy-type, especially on balances where it can compress a ton of different things. Having an offensive Scrafty answer, Eggy switch, Croak revenger, and win con is honestly such an amazing thing for balances and I've seen this mon flex these abilities to the max in dozens of games. I think this mon tends to do the Flame Charge thing a bit better than U-Turn, but having the option to continuously bait in Steels or set up on a Gastro feels pretty major. For many many reasons, G-Vally is the better mon obviously, but Fairyvally deserves to be viewed as more than just a bandaid.
This was a really cool and fun team I used in NUPL in that pdt game showcasing Fairyvally + FS Guno, another underrated mon that I feel has been forgotten about a bit. Fairyvally here adds a crucial Dark resist to this team, letting it actually beat Scrafty and Guzzlord without having to resort to just Toxicroak. Overall, a really good team for wearing down Steel-types and shared Fairyvally + Croak checks like Gastrodon
This was a fun concept that game out of the whole Spike building session that I had. Eggy-A is ridiculously efficient at breaking down Steel-types and threatens out every defensive answer to Fairyvally out there bar Talon (who you can nuke on a switch from both), making it a perfect partner for U-Turn Fairyvally and Spikes. This team wasn't brought only because I didn't get to test with it, but it looks and feels pretty awesome. A great example of how this mon can fill in holes on a team that no other mon can fill. If one wants to run with this concept of Fairyvally + Eggy a bit more, I'd recommend dropping the Garb on this team and filling appropriately. Probably with a Salazzle on this specific concept, similar to the Lazzle + Eggy + Scrafty team I made in NUCL for Dugza.
Yet another thing I was exploring a lot and have been for a while conceptually is HO. HO is not a fish in SS NU imo. It's a massively underutilized and great playstyle that takes many forms, can win on preview, and play out bad matchups for a win. I picked these three mons because I think they represent the three current forms of HO and offense out there that should be used much more.
The first, traditional hazard lead HO, has always been something on people's radars, but always seen as a "fish" because it's HO. In reality, it just smokes people and the majority of teams heavily struggle to deal with its threats. Load a lead (one of probably Aero or Froslass depending on the hazard you're looking for), throw together a combination of 5 offensive threats with synergy or 4 and a screens Grimmsnarl, and win. Imo, the best HO mon is SD Decidueye, but there's countless options here. It's not a fish and it's really really damn good, so don't be afraid to use it more. I recommend using it into scouts that lack sturdy Ghost answers, feel relatively frail (Xatu spammers come to mind), or tend to like BO more than harder balances.
The next is Sand, the only weather still properly legal in NU. Sand has been something that's been around for a bit and some have called "solved", but in reality it's barely been explored. I do think the Sand that's been around for forever that I believe Stories made is really good and hit the nail on the head with some techs, but as we've seen, there's a lot of different angles to take. Meri for example has experimented with no Lycanroc Copper versions that were more balancey while Oyster pulled up with Vikavolt + Decid in NUFL which was clearly a more offense take on the playstyle. All in all, it's a really cool playstyle that feels relatively untouched. I recommend bringing Sand into players like Lyra who spam Gvally teams or other BO users who don't rock clerics to stall things out, but it can be strong even into those mus.
Last under developed Offense playstyle out there is G-Terrain, the better version of E-Terrain which can also exist. We all know the classic set up spam team that I've used a ton from turt all those years ago, and that broken team is an awful version of what a good G-Terrain can look like. Besides the fact that Thwackey is a lowkey strong mon in its own right, G-Terrain has a plethora of insane abusers at its fingertips, everything from Grassy Seed Uxie who doesn't die to anything to Sceptile which was almost banned when Indeedee was around and then forgotten. One day I'll get to innovating here, but I highly recommend beating me to it. This playstyle is legitimately banworthy imo lmao, we just don't see good terrains much. Stories has used some cool versions in the past, including against me when I used Sand in last SSPL, and there's still a lot of room here for development.
This was a team that originally came out of conversations about HO with oyster during NUFL and I ended up bringing it against Metallica to great success in NUPL. The team is simple: get Spikes up and then win. Omastar, Sash Endeavor Salazzle, and Balloon Croak are all examples of mons and techs that work extremely well on HO by simply adding defensive value and ways to break down checks. Really nice HO squad.
Here's an updated version of that classic Sand team that everyone and their mom has been running forever. The concept of TP Eggy-A here is fantastic and a great addition to a more offensive version of this style. I've tended to believe that Lycanroc is really nice on Sand, even if some might see it as non mandatory. It's really really really good and I'm inclined to believe it might be something every Sand team should probably have on it, but I won't peer pressure anyone
Scrafty @ Leftovers
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 104 SpD / 152 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Rest
Scrafty obviously needs no introductions considering it's one of the best Pokemon in the tier, but I did want to drop a slight EV change that I originally made in NUCL that I felt made Scrafty a solid amount better, especially in how it could be played. Traditionally, Scrafty was usually EVed to be faster than Vaporeon, putting emphasis on playing the bulky tank role really well, but this spread hear goes ahead and has enough speed for Modest Eggy-A, hitting 190. This change allows Scrafty to be played a bit more aggressively into that matchup, acting as a secondary check that can eat any Modest LO hit and either Knock or Rest up easily. The EVs also allow you to live any Timid Eggy-A hit into a second one, notably seen in Dugza vs Meru in NUCL finals where I passed Dugza a team with it. The extra speed also flips the Weezing dynamics as well, a mon that can traditionally do well into Scrafty. Overall, this small change has opened up Scrafty a lot on my teams, especially on ones that are a bit Eggy-A weak and need a way to deal with it. Highly recommend and if you're looking for teams, I've posted a ton between this post and the NUCL dump.
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Well that's a long overdue post with some of the stuff I've been working with now that I've wanted to share, There's a ton left on my mind truthfully, but these were the main things that I felt should get out there now because this is way too long as is. I could've added a whole thing on my building philosophy as well, but no one needs a slice manifesto in this thread....
I hope everyone has fun with these teams and concepts though, let me know how it goes and I want to hear it in this thread! There's a lot of innovation out there way beyond what I've been working on, so if anyone else has any techs or cores or things of this nature to add, please share because I'd love to see it
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Now time for the newly trademarked "Slice State of the Metagame Address" because I have a lot of things to say on the meta right now. In general, I think it's in a really good spot and that it seems like people have really been enjoying it. People have gotten much more creative in the builder and we're seeing a plethora of different cores, styles, and mons make appearances, including the rise of more niche ones like Jellicent in NUFL, which I think proves a clear rise in development and interest. Speaking for myself, I've personally been experimenting with some new cores, ideas, and spreads as partially seen below and from my NUPL run and I'm having a lot of fun with the tier. There's so much more to explore and build with which is awesome.
With all of this new interest, I'd love to hear what other people feel about the meta, specifically on some of the brokens and if they think the tier needs any action. We're far past the days of calling for a Mowtom or G-Vally ban for many reasons, but I can't help but still feel like Vileplume is a toxic presence in the tier that might warrant action. Players are much better at dealing with the mon in play than in the past, but for me, the builder influence and way it warps gameplay have always felt restrictive in a way that drives me a little crazy. I know of the older players where everyone stands on Plume give or take, but I'm really curious how the new players have felt about Vileplume and if they would welcome action on it or not. I personally feel like it would be a good quality of life change with minimal effects on the meta, but maybe others feel differently which is ok.
Here are some other rapid fire thoughts I've had on the tier: AV Copper is the best Steel in the tier by a good margin, but should probably be paired with a Wish passer, and SR Copper is underrated; heavy hitter teams that put emphasis on mons that can pressure offensively are still feeling much better and more consistent to me than teams that are more passive, but I haven't been liking most BO right now personally, so I guess I see strong balances as golden right now?; there's a ton of room for innovation and development left in the tier which is awesome, I just hope people stop loading Substitute guys into me @ damien; Ttrum, Grimm, Glastrier, and somehow Eggy-A are seeing way too low usage; I think we need to collectively move away from these really bad Scarf Passimian builds that see occasional use because they all have losing vibes, especially the Passimian + Eldegoss ones; and as always please please please use Vaporeon answers and not Scarf Mowtom.
Feel free to take whatever sound bite you want here in or out of context and talk about it here. Let's get some discussion going now as we go into SSPL.
===========================================================================================================
With that being said, gonna specifically team dump here with small techs, move set changes, mons, and core concepts from building sessions or previous tours that I want to talk about, so not every team from my past few runs. I've had some really proud builder moments (and some less so) so let's get into it.
Aerodactyl @ Power Herb
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Sky Attack
This was a set that I began to theorize a while back when I initially felt really critical of DD Aero. I hated the fact that it seemed to need its checks entirely gone before I felt like it could win and that it had a clear lack of power, even with LO, that let it get soft checked by a lot of things beyond just the Ground-types. It confused me because SM Aero was just so much more threatening than SS Aero was, even beyond the Pursuit dynamics, until I realized that it had a lot to do with Z-Moves and the way that they allowed Aero to get a one time nuke to get through its checks, so I went searching to see if it still got Sky Attack. As anyone who's dmed me or tested with me the last 2 months will tell you, I fell in love with this set and we've now seen it pop up across a few NUFL and NUPL games because of those convos and tests I think. The concept isn't new obviously, but it was something I'd seen maybe once in SS NU ever and it felt to me like I had just solved DD Aero. Z-Aero as I was calling this set finally gave this mon the ability to beat its checks at +1 for the first time (the calcs were amazing and I'll paste them below), specifically Gastrodon. LO had more power on its moves and could Aqua Tail into G-Vally and Muds, but LO to me felt harder to set up and still couldn't get through Gastro, making this a really cool and viable example of set differentiation.
Building tip: DD Aeros, specifically non boots non roost, but also every version of Aero DD or not ngl, needs to be paired with a secondary Salazzle check. I messed with stuff like Gastro + Aero, Vap + Aero, and even had a Guzz + Aero thing going at some point. I also recommend Jolly>Ada on most teams bar HO because of the speed tiers. On HO, having the extra power at +1 to guarantee an OHKO on G-Vally without rocks, get an Edge kill on Mowtom, and more goes a long way.
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ground: 307-363 (92.7 - 109.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ground: 339-399 (102.4 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 271-319 (63.6 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 297-349 (69.7 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 216 Def Vaporeon: 331-391 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 216 Def Vaporeon: 364-429 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Mow: 279-328 (114.8 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Mow: 199-235 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 474-558 (133.8 - 157.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 169-199 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dhelmise: 426-504 (123.8 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dhelmise: 153-180 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Guzzlord: 433-510 (73.7 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Guzzlord: 475-559 (80.9 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ground: 339-399 (102.4 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 271-319 (63.6 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 297-349 (69.7 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 216 Def Vaporeon: 331-391 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 216 Def Vaporeon: 364-429 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Mow: 279-328 (114.8 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Mow: 199-235 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 474-558 (133.8 - 157.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 169-199 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dhelmise: 426-504 (123.8 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dhelmise: 153-180 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Guzzlord: 433-510 (73.7 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Aerodactyl Sky Attack vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Guzzlord: 475-559 (80.9 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-2365581124-wanta7ombeufj639xlpi2oef2xcgifnpw - Z-Aero gets the win after Gastro gets in range
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-847822?p2 - Lyra uses Z-Aero on HO to guarantee a KO on a Mowtom instead of resorting to a 50/50 roll with Stone Edge and ends up winning later on
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-850107 - OBB uses my team to try and set up alongside a DD Scrafty, and although it's scouted for some reason, maybe expecting DWB, Sky Attack gave counterplay against a mon that traditionally sets up on most Aero, especially BU
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-847822?p2 - Lyra uses Z-Aero on HO to guarantee a KO on a Mowtom instead of resorting to a 50/50 roll with Stone Edge and ends up winning later on
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-850107 - OBB uses my team to try and set up alongside a DD Scrafty, and although it's scouted for some reason, maybe expecting DWB, Sky Attack gave counterplay against a mon that traditionally sets up on most Aero, especially BU
Here were a few teams I made or used with it, but it can generally be swapped for just about any DD Aero set on any team. I do think there are times you'll want LO though, so just check what your team needs:
Very basic, but powerful, team that showcases Z-Aero really well. The offensive core of Aero + NP Croak + AV Copper is fantastic for breaking down teams and tearing through Ground-types. Vaporeon here acts as the secondary Salazzle check and cleric for our main Ground answer and spinner Dhelm. Dhelm deserves more usage if you can fit it on teams (!). We saw this team used twice in NUPL, once by me against The Goomy where Aero won without clicking the Z-Move and once when OBB haxed pdt shown above. Very happy with this build and very easy to pilot.
This is definitely a more fun version that's been a joy to use in test games. Here, the very underrated Centiskorch does the job of AV Copper on the other team, providing a tough wallbreaker that can threaten the same mons Aero wants gone. Paired with it here is a NP Mowtom as the primary Vap answer and removal together with Gastro + Staka + Scrafty to deal with Salazzle. Overall, a ton of fun, but if I were to ever bring something like this to a proper tournament game, I would make it Scarf Mowtom to help revenge mons and deal with G-Vally. I'd maybe add a more fancy Centi spread as well.
Wooooo another Vaporeon team! On a serious note, I wanted to share a more basic version of the Z-Aero + NP Mow core for people because I think it's quite strong and arguably our best removal, and although I had a few non Vap version, I think this build is one that's easy to pilot. Aero + Lazzle here help cover the speed issues involved with using NP Mow while also helping chip each others checks (a Sludge Poison on Gastro nearly guarantees a Z-Aero sweep later). Very self explainable.
Garbodor @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Stomping Tantrum / Seed Bomb / Haze
- Pain Split
- Spikes
It's no secret that Spikes as a move are broken and a great way to fish and c-team someone like myself who doesn't use Xatu, but that they're held back by the current setters we have. Of all of them, I've come to the conclusion that, outside of Froslass lead HO, Garbodor is probably the best setter. It has some strong traits as a physical answer, can outspeed and threaten things like Eggy-A, and has the ability to Spike on a lot of things like Copper, Guzz, Sylveon, and Vileplume. What holds it back is its intense 4mss and lack of traits as a Vap answer, super threatening offensive threat, G-Vally answer, physical set up blanket, and Knock machine that the other 5 meta Poison-types offer teams. With that being said though, it adds much more imo than any other Spiker (so far I've tested with Ferro and Accelgor while theorizing Qwil) and I think that Spikes as a concept are worth exploring more in this tier, despite how difficult it is to build with it. I also know this isn't a perfect spread at all and that one with a little SpD and less speed is ideal, but it's ok. Mess with it on your own.
To cover the inherent weaknesses to a team comp that will come by using Garb (lack of speed primarily, hard to fit a Lazzle answers, needing to beat Xatu, etc), I've found that Garb + Aero + Dhelm had a ton of potential to me as a core on paper thanks to its compression, although it became really difficult to fill out afterwords. I highly recommend trying your own hand on this concept, but in reality, I also found that it was possible to play without removal if you're running Spikes, so I also built a bunch without it during NUPL. It probably didn't help that my original concept was to use Escav + Spikes into damien that week, but I moved away from that idea a few times as shown below.
I thought this concept was quite interesting, albeit Scrafty weak. Maybe it should be Haze Garb. Either way, good amount of Knock + Spikes + a more offensive Vap answer in Heliolisk who really loves the extra chip to be able to do anything. Solid starting place.
I used this team without a spinner in NUPL against damien and both got unlucky and played really badly in a not great mu, but I generally liked the concept. Scrafty here helps deal with a lot of these builds types of issues while still providing a consistent way to deal with Vap and check Eggy-A which causes this team issues. Sad game, but a team concept I was pretty cool with.
Silvally-Fairy @ Fairy Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Multi-Attack
- Rock Slide
- U-turn/Flame Charge
I think it's about time that we begin to use Silvally-Fairy a lot more. It's always been a mon that's been naturally in the shadow of G-Vally and Sylveon, but when you needed the speed tier of G-Vally and don't want to go super slow with a Sylv or already had a Ground-type on your team, this was a guy who was always there for you. I'd like to argue that it deserves a ton more usage for the traits it provides as a fat semi bulky Fairy-type, especially on balances where it can compress a ton of different things. Having an offensive Scrafty answer, Eggy switch, Croak revenger, and win con is honestly such an amazing thing for balances and I've seen this mon flex these abilities to the max in dozens of games. I think this mon tends to do the Flame Charge thing a bit better than U-Turn, but having the option to continuously bait in Steels or set up on a Gastro feels pretty major. For many many reasons, G-Vally is the better mon obviously, but Fairyvally deserves to be viewed as more than just a bandaid.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-849956 - Fairyvally solves this old team and makes it usable thanks to its defensive traits. Any other type Vally and this team gets ran through by Eggy-A and Scrafty, but thanks to it being Fairy, I never have a chance here and it just wins with Multi and FG later in the game
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-847061?p2 - In this game in NUPL, I use Fairyvally against pdt and it ends up proving its defensive merit again by stopping a sweep from DD Kingdra in the end game
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-847061?p2 - In this game in NUPL, I use Fairyvally against pdt and it ends up proving its defensive merit again by stopping a sweep from DD Kingdra in the end game
This was a really cool and fun team I used in NUPL in that pdt game showcasing Fairyvally + FS Guno, another underrated mon that I feel has been forgotten about a bit. Fairyvally here adds a crucial Dark resist to this team, letting it actually beat Scrafty and Guzzlord without having to resort to just Toxicroak. Overall, a really good team for wearing down Steel-types and shared Fairyvally + Croak checks like Gastrodon
This was a fun concept that game out of the whole Spike building session that I had. Eggy-A is ridiculously efficient at breaking down Steel-types and threatens out every defensive answer to Fairyvally out there bar Talon (who you can nuke on a switch from both), making it a perfect partner for U-Turn Fairyvally and Spikes. This team wasn't brought only because I didn't get to test with it, but it looks and feels pretty awesome. A great example of how this mon can fill in holes on a team that no other mon can fill. If one wants to run with this concept of Fairyvally + Eggy a bit more, I'd recommend dropping the Garb on this team and filling appropriately. Probably with a Salazzle on this specific concept, similar to the Lazzle + Eggy + Scrafty team I made in NUCL for Dugza.
Yet another thing I was exploring a lot and have been for a while conceptually is HO. HO is not a fish in SS NU imo. It's a massively underutilized and great playstyle that takes many forms, can win on preview, and play out bad matchups for a win. I picked these three mons because I think they represent the three current forms of HO and offense out there that should be used much more.
The first, traditional hazard lead HO, has always been something on people's radars, but always seen as a "fish" because it's HO. In reality, it just smokes people and the majority of teams heavily struggle to deal with its threats. Load a lead (one of probably Aero or Froslass depending on the hazard you're looking for), throw together a combination of 5 offensive threats with synergy or 4 and a screens Grimmsnarl, and win. Imo, the best HO mon is SD Decidueye, but there's countless options here. It's not a fish and it's really really damn good, so don't be afraid to use it more. I recommend using it into scouts that lack sturdy Ghost answers, feel relatively frail (Xatu spammers come to mind), or tend to like BO more than harder balances.
The next is Sand, the only weather still properly legal in NU. Sand has been something that's been around for a bit and some have called "solved", but in reality it's barely been explored. I do think the Sand that's been around for forever that I believe Stories made is really good and hit the nail on the head with some techs, but as we've seen, there's a lot of different angles to take. Meri for example has experimented with no Lycanroc Copper versions that were more balancey while Oyster pulled up with Vikavolt + Decid in NUFL which was clearly a more offense take on the playstyle. All in all, it's a really cool playstyle that feels relatively untouched. I recommend bringing Sand into players like Lyra who spam Gvally teams or other BO users who don't rock clerics to stall things out, but it can be strong even into those mus.
Last under developed Offense playstyle out there is G-Terrain, the better version of E-Terrain which can also exist. We all know the classic set up spam team that I've used a ton from turt all those years ago, and that broken team is an awful version of what a good G-Terrain can look like. Besides the fact that Thwackey is a lowkey strong mon in its own right, G-Terrain has a plethora of insane abusers at its fingertips, everything from Grassy Seed Uxie who doesn't die to anything to Sceptile which was almost banned when Indeedee was around and then forgotten. One day I'll get to innovating here, but I highly recommend beating me to it. This playstyle is legitimately banworthy imo lmao, we just don't see good terrains much. Stories has used some cool versions in the past, including against me when I used Sand in last SSPL, and there's still a lot of room here for development.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-848302 - Me using a traditional set up HO team in NUPL. I loaded into a great matchup, got a little lucky, and just swept through with Toxicroak and Salazzle.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-849041 - Oyster and his Vika Sand in NUFL grabbing a really nice win against Kiyo
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-787241?p2 - A really really cool Stories hybrid G-Terrain + traditional HO team that put in work against my Sand
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-787931?p2 - An example of a Stories G-Terrain concept as well featuring AV Lurk, Terrain Pulse Diancie, and Grassy Glide SD Dhelm
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-849041 - Oyster and his Vika Sand in NUFL grabbing a really nice win against Kiyo
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-787241?p2 - A really really cool Stories hybrid G-Terrain + traditional HO team that put in work against my Sand
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-787931?p2 - An example of a Stories G-Terrain concept as well featuring AV Lurk, Terrain Pulse Diancie, and Grassy Glide SD Dhelm
This was a team that originally came out of conversations about HO with oyster during NUFL and I ended up bringing it against Metallica to great success in NUPL. The team is simple: get Spikes up and then win. Omastar, Sash Endeavor Salazzle, and Balloon Croak are all examples of mons and techs that work extremely well on HO by simply adding defensive value and ways to break down checks. Really nice HO squad.
Here's an updated version of that classic Sand team that everyone and their mom has been running forever. The concept of TP Eggy-A here is fantastic and a great addition to a more offensive version of this style. I've tended to believe that Lycanroc is really nice on Sand, even if some might see it as non mandatory. It's really really really good and I'm inclined to believe it might be something every Sand team should probably have on it, but I won't peer pressure anyone
Scrafty @ Leftovers
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 104 SpD / 152 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Rest
Scrafty obviously needs no introductions considering it's one of the best Pokemon in the tier, but I did want to drop a slight EV change that I originally made in NUCL that I felt made Scrafty a solid amount better, especially in how it could be played. Traditionally, Scrafty was usually EVed to be faster than Vaporeon, putting emphasis on playing the bulky tank role really well, but this spread hear goes ahead and has enough speed for Modest Eggy-A, hitting 190. This change allows Scrafty to be played a bit more aggressively into that matchup, acting as a secondary check that can eat any Modest LO hit and either Knock or Rest up easily. The EVs also allow you to live any Timid Eggy-A hit into a second one, notably seen in Dugza vs Meru in NUCL finals where I passed Dugza a team with it. The extra speed also flips the Weezing dynamics as well, a mon that can traditionally do well into Scrafty. Overall, this small change has opened up Scrafty a lot on my teams, especially on ones that are a bit Eggy-A weak and need a way to deal with it. Highly recommend and if you're looking for teams, I've posted a ton between this post and the NUCL dump.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-823209 - the aforementioned Dugza Meru game which puts this spread on display perfectly. Beautifully checks Timid Eggy-A, outsped the fast Weezing, and somehow came back to win. Honestly insane game to watch live.
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Well that's a long overdue post with some of the stuff I've been working with now that I've wanted to share, There's a ton left on my mind truthfully, but these were the main things that I felt should get out there now because this is way too long as is. I could've added a whole thing on my building philosophy as well, but no one needs a slice manifesto in this thread....
I hope everyone has fun with these teams and concepts though, let me know how it goes and I want to hear it in this thread! There's a lot of innovation out there way beyond what I've been working on, so if anyone else has any techs or cores or things of this nature to add, please share because I'd love to see it
I admit I am not as well versed in SS as the majority of those who mainly play it, but I decided to give my two cents on it from the perspective of a newcomer.
Anyways, to preface, most of my experience playing this tier comes from seeing the work put into it during NUCL II through my former teammates Dugza and Etern, and later on scrimming a good amount with Turtledoggo through their NUPL run, which I was very happy to see them doing well in (s/o Scope Lens Absol).
- I really think that there can be more viable Silvally types, I know Slice has been talking about Silvally fairy a good amount but with some very good Poison coverage in the tier already (Salazzle, SpA Guzzlord, Toxicroak both Spa and Att, and Garbodor) I am unsure on how good this would be. Needless to say it does have some good options to team up with much like the mons I've listed above, but I haven't tried it. I wish I could pull up actual usage stats however a couple I was thinking about building with were Silvally Normal and Poison. If this talk has already happened I apologize for going down this rabbit hole however these two I think could be particularly strong, coming from a relative newcomer. Poison mainly due to being a resist against both Poison and Fairy types going through the tier, and resisting Grass which puts a foil into Rotom Mow's Leaf Storm, as well as Decidueye and Eggy Alola.
- This take is definitely cold but the more I play the more I feel like Stall or even semi Stall isn't as good in this tier, or at least there isn't much room comparatively to other tiers, which reminds me of GSC NU but in a completely different way. I feel like there are way too many heavy hitters in the tier to justify running a purely defensive structure, and that it would be easy to overload one of the pillars of said structure. Again, I'm coming from a place with no team preview but team preview theoretically makes Stall a much easier NUT to crack as well, which leads me to not want to build like that. That being said, I do think balance in this tier is definitely the most reliable option as a builder.
- I'm sort've down on Scarf Rotom after using teams with it for a while. I never like how I can't get enough from Rotom-M as I feel like I could be getting and want to try out more Specs, or even a full on speedy support Rotom-M. I wouldn't opt for anything odd like a Rocky Helmet (HP is absurdly low for that) or an Iron Ball (would be goofy though), however I do think there are more options to run w Rotom-M.
- I feel more at home in tiers that Xatu is good, and Rocky Helmet Xatu feels so right to use. I never feel fully safe putting up hazards against magic bounce and it feels like even bringing it, doesn't just give another dimension the opponent has to think around but also aura.
- Lastly, I just wanted to say I feel like when it comes to rockers I think Mudsdale takes the cake as being the best in the tier. I think Aero is too unreliable, and I am unimpressed with Stakataka as a whole.
Thank you for reading if you have read this far. If you have any insults to lob, or nice words to say, please feel free to DM me on discord.
Anyways, to preface, most of my experience playing this tier comes from seeing the work put into it during NUCL II through my former teammates Dugza and Etern, and later on scrimming a good amount with Turtledoggo through their NUPL run, which I was very happy to see them doing well in (s/o Scope Lens Absol).
- I really think that there can be more viable Silvally types, I know Slice has been talking about Silvally fairy a good amount but with some very good Poison coverage in the tier already (Salazzle, SpA Guzzlord, Toxicroak both Spa and Att, and Garbodor) I am unsure on how good this would be. Needless to say it does have some good options to team up with much like the mons I've listed above, but I haven't tried it. I wish I could pull up actual usage stats however a couple I was thinking about building with were Silvally Normal and Poison. If this talk has already happened I apologize for going down this rabbit hole however these two I think could be particularly strong, coming from a relative newcomer. Poison mainly due to being a resist against both Poison and Fairy types going through the tier, and resisting Grass which puts a foil into Rotom Mow's Leaf Storm, as well as Decidueye and Eggy Alola.
- This take is definitely cold but the more I play the more I feel like Stall or even semi Stall isn't as good in this tier, or at least there isn't much room comparatively to other tiers, which reminds me of GSC NU but in a completely different way. I feel like there are way too many heavy hitters in the tier to justify running a purely defensive structure, and that it would be easy to overload one of the pillars of said structure. Again, I'm coming from a place with no team preview but team preview theoretically makes Stall a much easier NUT to crack as well, which leads me to not want to build like that. That being said, I do think balance in this tier is definitely the most reliable option as a builder.
- I'm sort've down on Scarf Rotom after using teams with it for a while. I never like how I can't get enough from Rotom-M as I feel like I could be getting and want to try out more Specs, or even a full on speedy support Rotom-M. I wouldn't opt for anything odd like a Rocky Helmet (HP is absurdly low for that) or an Iron Ball (would be goofy though), however I do think there are more options to run w Rotom-M.
- I feel more at home in tiers that Xatu is good, and Rocky Helmet Xatu feels so right to use. I never feel fully safe putting up hazards against magic bounce and it feels like even bringing it, doesn't just give another dimension the opponent has to think around but also aura.
- Lastly, I just wanted to say I feel like when it comes to rockers I think Mudsdale takes the cake as being the best in the tier. I think Aero is too unreliable, and I am unimpressed with Stakataka as a whole.
Thank you for reading if you have read this far. If you have any insults to lob, or nice words to say, please feel free to DM me on discord.
Pokeslice begged me to make a post since this thread is giga deserted and he feels lonely so here's my post NUPL/NUFL thoughts on some stuff. This post will also double as a VR nom post as I feel it is sligthly outdated when it comes to some mons.
I will start off with the mons I think are most underrated right now, those being the 2 special normal types - Heliolisk and Drampa.
B+ -> B+
While I do think people are underestimating it and not exploring it enough, I don't think it deserves a rise as of now. People often default to choice sets and then realize they are really subpar and then drop building with it in favor of more comfy cores with Rotom-Mow as their electric of choice, and that's perfectly fine since those choiced sets are really bad all things considered. What I'm advocating for are unchoiced sets with Silk Scarf or Boots as their item of choice. Normal as an attacking type is really strong when paired with Electric as your secondary STAB, especially considering the surge in Aerodactyl usage, a Normal resist that outspeeds and can sustain but that also happens to be Electric weak and so will fear coming in on a Volt Switch. Heliolisk's main weakness is its vulnerability and predictableness when using choice items, and people need to start experimenting with non choiced sets more.
There is also a lot of wasted potential with people defaulting to timid as the nature of choice. Modest when paired with Silk Scarf opens up some very nasty rolls on pokemon like Mudsdale, Gastrodon and Harvest Exeggutor-A, and provides a good power boost to all your moves which opens up other options like a 3HKO on Silvally-Steel with Thunderbolt, forcing a rest on Guzzlord and Scrafty from full HP. Modest however does come with a notable drawback, that being a speed tie with Silvally-Ground, but that can be mitigated and I found isn't likely to come into play all that often (you also no longer outspeed Scyther and Zoroark but who cares about them lmao).
The last move is often personal preference and dictated by what your team needs but what I found feels the most consistent is Focus Blast, closely followed by Grass Knot (opens up an OHKO on Golurk), but there is a less used option I want to highlight and that is Toxic, especially on teams that want to play slower and might struggle breaking Sylveon.
B- -> B
This mon has a lot more potential, but I haven't played around with it enough to justify ranking it any higher. The only fighting moves we have in the tier right now are from Passimian and random coverage from steel types and potentially Mudsdale, with Passimian usage dropping every tournament. The only two fairy types in the tier are Sylveon and Diancie, the latter of which seems to have fallen off the map completely while the former struggles as Salazzle usage rises (not that it matters since it loses to Drampa if it switches in on a CM lol).
If your team has enough tools to pressure and break down Stakataka and you are able to bring this in semi consistently, it will often take over games very quickly, especially in matchups like Vileplume, Vaporeon and other weaker special attackers.
Its main drawbacks are the Exeggutor-Alola matchup, and while that can be remedied with a Haban berry, I find that often leftovers is too valuable to drop which is quite the conundrum. The minor surge in Silvally-Fairy usage is also a trend to watch.
B+ -> A-
Moving from one strong dragon to another, albeit a noticeably faster and more linear one, I wanted to talk about Tyrantrum. This pokemon has nightmarish calcs, like potentially 2HKO mudsdale with 2% chip type calcs. I think it's very telling when people's main counterplay against a pokemon is hope you predict right and/or it misses. Tyrantrum is a pokemon that will almost always be able to trade 2 or 3 for 1 if you play it correctly and don't give up momentum early in the battle.
A -> B
The last dragon I wanted to talk about. Remember when I said Diancie seems to have fallen off the map, Guzzlord actually has. It's only been used twice throughout all of NUPL and only won one of the two. The meta is getting faster, eevee balance is dropping off and with it goes Guzzlord. Doesn't help that 2 other notable dark types are seeing more and more use, those being Scrafty and Grimmsnarl, both of which compete with Guzzlord's two sets and arguably do it better - a bulky dark type status tank and a choiced breaker.
A -> A+
Why is this thing not in A+ lol, get with the program.
I think the meta is headed in a very good direction and it's nice seeing it progress at this pace despite being an oldgen and also nice seeing new players picking it up. I was worried for a while that it wouldn't have a bright or active future but I'm happy to be proven wrong. Here's a reward for those who sat through this yap session, a simple but fun HO we won with in NUPL, deviating away from my common HO formula and using some less common options.
I will start off with the mons I think are most underrated right now, those being the 2 special normal types - Heliolisk and Drampa.
B+ -> B+While I do think people are underestimating it and not exploring it enough, I don't think it deserves a rise as of now. People often default to choice sets and then realize they are really subpar and then drop building with it in favor of more comfy cores with Rotom-Mow as their electric of choice, and that's perfectly fine since those choiced sets are really bad all things considered. What I'm advocating for are unchoiced sets with Silk Scarf or Boots as their item of choice. Normal as an attacking type is really strong when paired with Electric as your secondary STAB, especially considering the surge in Aerodactyl usage, a Normal resist that outspeeds and can sustain but that also happens to be Electric weak and so will fear coming in on a Volt Switch. Heliolisk's main weakness is its vulnerability and predictableness when using choice items, and people need to start experimenting with non choiced sets more.
There is also a lot of wasted potential with people defaulting to timid as the nature of choice. Modest when paired with Silk Scarf opens up some very nasty rolls on pokemon like Mudsdale, Gastrodon and Harvest Exeggutor-A, and provides a good power boost to all your moves which opens up other options like a 3HKO on Silvally-Steel with Thunderbolt, forcing a rest on Guzzlord and Scrafty from full HP. Modest however does come with a notable drawback, that being a speed tie with Silvally-Ground, but that can be mitigated and I found isn't likely to come into play all that often (you also no longer outspeed Scyther and Zoroark but who cares about them lmao).
The last move is often personal preference and dictated by what your team needs but what I found feels the most consistent is Focus Blast, closely followed by Grass Knot (opens up an OHKO on Golurk), but there is a less used option I want to highlight and that is Toxic, especially on teams that want to play slower and might struggle breaking Sylveon.
B- -> BThis mon has a lot more potential, but I haven't played around with it enough to justify ranking it any higher. The only fighting moves we have in the tier right now are from Passimian and random coverage from steel types and potentially Mudsdale, with Passimian usage dropping every tournament. The only two fairy types in the tier are Sylveon and Diancie, the latter of which seems to have fallen off the map completely while the former struggles as Salazzle usage rises (not that it matters since it loses to Drampa if it switches in on a CM lol).
If your team has enough tools to pressure and break down Stakataka and you are able to bring this in semi consistently, it will often take over games very quickly, especially in matchups like Vileplume, Vaporeon and other weaker special attackers.
Its main drawbacks are the Exeggutor-Alola matchup, and while that can be remedied with a Haban berry, I find that often leftovers is too valuable to drop which is quite the conundrum. The minor surge in Silvally-Fairy usage is also a trend to watch.
B+ -> A-Moving from one strong dragon to another, albeit a noticeably faster and more linear one, I wanted to talk about Tyrantrum. This pokemon has nightmarish calcs, like potentially 2HKO mudsdale with 2% chip type calcs. I think it's very telling when people's main counterplay against a pokemon is hope you predict right and/or it misses. Tyrantrum is a pokemon that will almost always be able to trade 2 or 3 for 1 if you play it correctly and don't give up momentum early in the battle.
A -> BThe last dragon I wanted to talk about. Remember when I said Diancie seems to have fallen off the map, Guzzlord actually has. It's only been used twice throughout all of NUPL and only won one of the two. The meta is getting faster, eevee balance is dropping off and with it goes Guzzlord. Doesn't help that 2 other notable dark types are seeing more and more use, those being Scrafty and Grimmsnarl, both of which compete with Guzzlord's two sets and arguably do it better - a bulky dark type status tank and a choiced breaker.
A -> A+Why is this thing not in A+ lol, get with the program.
I think the meta is headed in a very good direction and it's nice seeing it progress at this pace despite being an oldgen and also nice seeing new players picking it up. I was worried for a while that it wouldn't have a bright or active future but I'm happy to be proven wrong. Here's a reward for those who sat through this yap session, a simple but fun HO we won with in NUPL, deviating away from my common HO formula and using some less common options.
hey wanted to write some thoughts about ssnu with nufl ending, specifically regarding offensive structures.
I think the best place to start with this was my approach into the tier. Its no secret that this tier for a long time has been largely balance oriented--even i knew that going in despite never having touched the tier prior. That said, upon taking a second look at these balance cores, lots of them were quite repetitive. They really centralize around some combination of Mudsdale/Gastrodon, Vaporeon/Sylveon, and Copperajah/Stakataka and like, sure thats a good way to generalize any tier but I don't think its crazy to say that this tier leans harder into these pillars more than others with their respective balance staples. Just comparing to ssru, which i frequently relied upon to navigate through the tier, the core diversity of that tier is more varied than here. I didnt follow this tier during the current generation much so I lack the understanding of how exactly this balance craze formed. Regardless, when balance cores become stagnant, it can be a good indicator of offense being very good as they can tailor themselves to break past these cores. To add, all of those pokemon i mentioned prior have major problems that arent difficult to take advantage of. Then of course there is the issue of vileplume, another pokemon whose potential I was aware of from playing ssru, which not only disrupts these cores itself but also serves as a fantastic defensive wall. Vileplume's lack of long term switchins pushed me towards using structures that could overwhelm it and/or block its recovery. Rotom-mow is another pokemon that encourages faster paced play as with the grounds being so weak into leaf storm, the only real way to prevent volturn chains would be to simply be in a proactive position to deny such. From these thoughts, I concluded that offense would be the most consistent way to succeed within the tier.
I immediately ran into a problem though, that being, there weren't many offense teams to refer to when teambuilding as in NUPL at the time, of the 20 games that were played, 19 of them were the balance/bo-type. So with limited choice and given the nature of the tournament, I decided to build some offenses from scratch, leading to the following two teams I used in weeks 2 and 3 of NUFL.
The scrafty build was built first so i'll start here. The focal point of the team was this dragon dance scrafty set thats existed in all fairy gens pretty much. It was interesting to me that dragon dance isnt a common set as being a speed boosting setup seemed like it would be very good. Scrafty in general is a pokemon that is known to be this broken kind of cheese cleaner so I assumed the same here. Iron head to me seemed like an interesting tech as it prevents scrafty from blanking into a pokemon like Sylveon to perserve that fast HO pacing, though other moves like taunt, rest, or zen headbutt all seem like solid options that could swing its counterplay dramatically. In the tier where the balance cores have a high degree of consistency, this ability to essentially pick and choose its matchups was very appealing to me in my initial building processes. I initially set out with iron head as the fourth move of choice and built around there, with xatu being the obvious support to block vileplume recovery.
The other pokemon that is present in both is this starmie, a pokemon that I find to be criminally underutilized despite being one of the more broken breakers of the tier. It, like scrafty, shares a similar ability to pick and choose its matchups with its vast coverage and utility. On these HOs, I opted for these 4 atks LO sets with analytic to prevent blanking into stuff and maintain the good offensive pacing. Yet, despite being the same 'set title' of sorts, these two starmies only share tbolt as a common move, again really going to show how the pokemon can be tailored for specific matchups and teamneeds. In the scrafty HO, I opted (as per OBB suggestion) for dazzling gleam to help secure opposing guzzlord and scrafty match ups (which mattered in the game!) and psychic for extra insurance into opposing vileplume and a strong reliable stab that would let me run hydro pump. Yet in the second team, I decided that grass knot was more necessary as gastrodon would block the omastar from sweeping. Of course breaker starmie sets with recovery are fantastic in more medium-paced teams that can afford to switch and still can punish switches and apply a similar pressure to these 4 atk sets. Its great speed tier with such set variability is what I think made me gravitate towards it so much, as being able to threaten gvally + non-scarf-rotom with super effective attacks makes piloting these HOs easier.
And of course lets get the elephant out of the room, yes there are two separate teams with a scarf togedemaru. The very basic idea was that it would be able to gain the initiative against opposing scarf rotoms safely, something that I thought could have been the big reason as to why HO wasnt being used as much as it probably deserves to. Granted, the classic pair a ground with a grass rotom counterplay can still work on HO, but undeniably is more fitting on balances, so scarf togedemaru was my solution. It also had a number of other advantages, albeit minor ones. It provided a steel-type on HO, which again isnt necessary to HO but, again, was a solution to working it in. It also provided a form of speed control should the priority from decidueye/toxicroak not be enough and the aero is sacked early. It also itself just isnt a terrible scarf user as it has two stabs and a pivot move. The togedemaru is more essential to the omastar team as having a solid rotom answer is obviously beneficial to the omastar/starmie waterspam. The scarf togedemaru is in general, the means to a greater end rather than it being the game impacting tech itself as it sures up a bunch of structural questions for HO in one slot.
Spikes are another extremely good option in this tier that totally destroy the common balance current of teams as they hit pretty much all the major pokemons outside of talon, rotom, and aero (This is dissimilar to ssru where the top 5 pokemon are all immune to spikes). After discussions with pokeslice, froslass was the best spiker with garbordor being the next best option for slower paced teams. I paired the spikes with the water attackers since they could benefit more from something like copperajah taking additional chip.
SD decidueye is a fantastic HO cleaner that I loved using so much, I tried to run it on sand. Off the top of my head, the only two pokemon that resist both stabs are guzzlord and drapion, so it can fairly reliably clean. Fantastic matchups into mudsdale and vaporeon are a huge plus as well. It is difficult for me to conceptualize VRs but if I were to make my own, it would be in the A to A+ range for sure. Doublade is a great alternative to decidueye as well if a different defensive profile is needed.
More on the xatu, I think xatu is better used in teams that can easily make progress rather than passive teams with slower, situational-type breakers (glastrier, clawitzer, golurk, etc...). It is a pokemon that very much depends on a particular pacing rather than something that sets that pacing itself. It is not a long term switch-in into vileplume, rather better used as something that can quickly pivot in to block its recovery and get out. It isnt great into many of the common rockers of the tier but if it could deny rocks and then maybe chip them down a little, if the progress makers behind it are effective, it has effectively done its job.
The omastar HO actually was the prototype in a sense to the HO pokeslice used against metalica, and he actually suggesting incorporating np sash lazzle with endeavor into my HOs, which i think is in theory a terrific set. I see it as something that could be very valuable in revenge killing and forcing trades. I unfortunately didn't get to use it during the tour since starmie ended up taking that role on my builds but it deserves a mention.
Wanted to give a shoutout to both of these pokemon as they are fairly similar in what they try to do, and that is apply a really unique pressure with their respective pivotting moves. Scyther is a pokemon that isnt really used much since the contact abilities of talonflame and plume can scare it and its defensive utility is lacking in comparison to an Aero, talon, mantine, etc.. but any turn it is on the field it puts so much pressure as it can a) stab pivot move, b) knock, or c) set up and break with a 120bp flying stab. The fear of contact abilities is very real of course but put with the proper pacing, those opportunities can be limited to an extent. Or scyther can be used with a cleric and be this great offensive pressure pivot relief for these balances, which is actually how it is most commonly used in ssru. Vikavolt was a suprise omission from the VR for me as it does see a good amount of use in ssru. It is obviously strange to platform since its profile is so unique but it has a lot of great upside in that it can serve as a sort of switch-in to rotom, is immune to eq/multiattack, and has reliable recovery. Its monster 145 special attack is also a huge plus for chipping down the fatter steels with volt switch. In my game i tried to fit it on sand as I thought having this powerful slow pivot would help platform my other sweepers while also exerting pressure of its own (in the match it was sacked by turn 3), however, even in tests I knew that there was a certain flimsyness to it.
I want to discuss sand teambuilding as from conversations with pokeslice and my own personal tinkering, it is obvious there is this awkwardness to building sand that should be discussed. I think the biggest reason for such awkwardness results from gigalith itself as it itself ends up being forced to take the steel-type role despite not being a steel type. Pairing it with Copperajah or even escav is just too slow I find as this unwanted defensive overlap is created within this same slow 35- speed tier. As a result, the sand either takes a more balanced route with something like copperajah, or the sand goes without a steel which makes these builds flimsier. One example to show this might be the match up into rotom-mow as if gigalith was a real steel type, a secondary grass resist would not be necessary as it would take that role itself, but since it isnt, the last flexible slots of sand had to keep rotom in mind, which is why decid+vikavolt is present. Another example would just be fairytypes in general, which is my main issue with the common eggy sand, as eggy itself compounds the issue rather than does something to patch it (of course, this could be part of the design of sand in this tier as it is primarily seen as a fish). The Decidueye sand also does not have a fairy resist but I still consider it better since decidueye could at least pressure it directly while the second team includes a fast weezing to provide slightly better counterplay. Weezing fills a crucial role in that build as it sures up the Gvally matchup while also having a fast taunt to prevent recovery, preserving progress from the other breakers. I dont find lycanroc or even xatu to be manditory picks on sand either, but when trying to replace them for alternatives, these pokemon simply end up being the best options usually. Another point of awkwardness emerges when trying to replace xatu as none of the alternative flying types seem all that appealing. Talon wants to play a slower game while aero competes with lycanroc within the team (and also doesnt provide a fighting or grass resist). It is these tensions that prevent sand from being able to branch out too far and restrict the weather that usually has the most flexibility.
I think that is all i have to share about offensive structures in this tier from playing in nufl. looking forward to playing this tier in the future. any questions reach out
I think the best place to start with this was my approach into the tier. Its no secret that this tier for a long time has been largely balance oriented--even i knew that going in despite never having touched the tier prior. That said, upon taking a second look at these balance cores, lots of them were quite repetitive. They really centralize around some combination of Mudsdale/Gastrodon, Vaporeon/Sylveon, and Copperajah/Stakataka and like, sure thats a good way to generalize any tier but I don't think its crazy to say that this tier leans harder into these pillars more than others with their respective balance staples. Just comparing to ssru, which i frequently relied upon to navigate through the tier, the core diversity of that tier is more varied than here. I didnt follow this tier during the current generation much so I lack the understanding of how exactly this balance craze formed. Regardless, when balance cores become stagnant, it can be a good indicator of offense being very good as they can tailor themselves to break past these cores. To add, all of those pokemon i mentioned prior have major problems that arent difficult to take advantage of. Then of course there is the issue of vileplume, another pokemon whose potential I was aware of from playing ssru, which not only disrupts these cores itself but also serves as a fantastic defensive wall. Vileplume's lack of long term switchins pushed me towards using structures that could overwhelm it and/or block its recovery. Rotom-mow is another pokemon that encourages faster paced play as with the grounds being so weak into leaf storm, the only real way to prevent volturn chains would be to simply be in a proactive position to deny such. From these thoughts, I concluded that offense would be the most consistent way to succeed within the tier.
I immediately ran into a problem though, that being, there weren't many offense teams to refer to when teambuilding as in NUPL at the time, of the 20 games that were played, 19 of them were the balance/bo-type. So with limited choice and given the nature of the tournament, I decided to build some offenses from scratch, leading to the following two teams I used in weeks 2 and 3 of NUFL.
The scrafty build was built first so i'll start here. The focal point of the team was this dragon dance scrafty set thats existed in all fairy gens pretty much. It was interesting to me that dragon dance isnt a common set as being a speed boosting setup seemed like it would be very good. Scrafty in general is a pokemon that is known to be this broken kind of cheese cleaner so I assumed the same here. Iron head to me seemed like an interesting tech as it prevents scrafty from blanking into a pokemon like Sylveon to perserve that fast HO pacing, though other moves like taunt, rest, or zen headbutt all seem like solid options that could swing its counterplay dramatically. In the tier where the balance cores have a high degree of consistency, this ability to essentially pick and choose its matchups was very appealing to me in my initial building processes. I initially set out with iron head as the fourth move of choice and built around there, with xatu being the obvious support to block vileplume recovery.
The other pokemon that is present in both is this starmie, a pokemon that I find to be criminally underutilized despite being one of the more broken breakers of the tier. It, like scrafty, shares a similar ability to pick and choose its matchups with its vast coverage and utility. On these HOs, I opted for these 4 atks LO sets with analytic to prevent blanking into stuff and maintain the good offensive pacing. Yet, despite being the same 'set title' of sorts, these two starmies only share tbolt as a common move, again really going to show how the pokemon can be tailored for specific matchups and teamneeds. In the scrafty HO, I opted (as per OBB suggestion) for dazzling gleam to help secure opposing guzzlord and scrafty match ups (which mattered in the game!) and psychic for extra insurance into opposing vileplume and a strong reliable stab that would let me run hydro pump. Yet in the second team, I decided that grass knot was more necessary as gastrodon would block the omastar from sweeping. Of course breaker starmie sets with recovery are fantastic in more medium-paced teams that can afford to switch and still can punish switches and apply a similar pressure to these 4 atk sets. Its great speed tier with such set variability is what I think made me gravitate towards it so much, as being able to threaten gvally + non-scarf-rotom with super effective attacks makes piloting these HOs easier.
And of course lets get the elephant out of the room, yes there are two separate teams with a scarf togedemaru. The very basic idea was that it would be able to gain the initiative against opposing scarf rotoms safely, something that I thought could have been the big reason as to why HO wasnt being used as much as it probably deserves to. Granted, the classic pair a ground with a grass rotom counterplay can still work on HO, but undeniably is more fitting on balances, so scarf togedemaru was my solution. It also had a number of other advantages, albeit minor ones. It provided a steel-type on HO, which again isnt necessary to HO but, again, was a solution to working it in. It also provided a form of speed control should the priority from decidueye/toxicroak not be enough and the aero is sacked early. It also itself just isnt a terrible scarf user as it has two stabs and a pivot move. The togedemaru is more essential to the omastar team as having a solid rotom answer is obviously beneficial to the omastar/starmie waterspam. The scarf togedemaru is in general, the means to a greater end rather than it being the game impacting tech itself as it sures up a bunch of structural questions for HO in one slot.
Spikes are another extremely good option in this tier that totally destroy the common balance current of teams as they hit pretty much all the major pokemons outside of talon, rotom, and aero (This is dissimilar to ssru where the top 5 pokemon are all immune to spikes). After discussions with pokeslice, froslass was the best spiker with garbordor being the next best option for slower paced teams. I paired the spikes with the water attackers since they could benefit more from something like copperajah taking additional chip.
SD decidueye is a fantastic HO cleaner that I loved using so much, I tried to run it on sand. Off the top of my head, the only two pokemon that resist both stabs are guzzlord and drapion, so it can fairly reliably clean. Fantastic matchups into mudsdale and vaporeon are a huge plus as well. It is difficult for me to conceptualize VRs but if I were to make my own, it would be in the A to A+ range for sure. Doublade is a great alternative to decidueye as well if a different defensive profile is needed.
More on the xatu, I think xatu is better used in teams that can easily make progress rather than passive teams with slower, situational-type breakers (glastrier, clawitzer, golurk, etc...). It is a pokemon that very much depends on a particular pacing rather than something that sets that pacing itself. It is not a long term switch-in into vileplume, rather better used as something that can quickly pivot in to block its recovery and get out. It isnt great into many of the common rockers of the tier but if it could deny rocks and then maybe chip them down a little, if the progress makers behind it are effective, it has effectively done its job.
The omastar HO actually was the prototype in a sense to the HO pokeslice used against metalica, and he actually suggesting incorporating np sash lazzle with endeavor into my HOs, which i think is in theory a terrific set. I see it as something that could be very valuable in revenge killing and forcing trades. I unfortunately didn't get to use it during the tour since starmie ended up taking that role on my builds but it deserves a mention.
Wanted to give a shoutout to both of these pokemon as they are fairly similar in what they try to do, and that is apply a really unique pressure with their respective pivotting moves. Scyther is a pokemon that isnt really used much since the contact abilities of talonflame and plume can scare it and its defensive utility is lacking in comparison to an Aero, talon, mantine, etc.. but any turn it is on the field it puts so much pressure as it can a) stab pivot move, b) knock, or c) set up and break with a 120bp flying stab. The fear of contact abilities is very real of course but put with the proper pacing, those opportunities can be limited to an extent. Or scyther can be used with a cleric and be this great offensive pressure pivot relief for these balances, which is actually how it is most commonly used in ssru. Vikavolt was a suprise omission from the VR for me as it does see a good amount of use in ssru. It is obviously strange to platform since its profile is so unique but it has a lot of great upside in that it can serve as a sort of switch-in to rotom, is immune to eq/multiattack, and has reliable recovery. Its monster 145 special attack is also a huge plus for chipping down the fatter steels with volt switch. In my game i tried to fit it on sand as I thought having this powerful slow pivot would help platform my other sweepers while also exerting pressure of its own (in the match it was sacked by turn 3), however, even in tests I knew that there was a certain flimsyness to it.
I want to discuss sand teambuilding as from conversations with pokeslice and my own personal tinkering, it is obvious there is this awkwardness to building sand that should be discussed. I think the biggest reason for such awkwardness results from gigalith itself as it itself ends up being forced to take the steel-type role despite not being a steel type. Pairing it with Copperajah or even escav is just too slow I find as this unwanted defensive overlap is created within this same slow 35- speed tier. As a result, the sand either takes a more balanced route with something like copperajah, or the sand goes without a steel which makes these builds flimsier. One example to show this might be the match up into rotom-mow as if gigalith was a real steel type, a secondary grass resist would not be necessary as it would take that role itself, but since it isnt, the last flexible slots of sand had to keep rotom in mind, which is why decid+vikavolt is present. Another example would just be fairytypes in general, which is my main issue with the common eggy sand, as eggy itself compounds the issue rather than does something to patch it (of course, this could be part of the design of sand in this tier as it is primarily seen as a fish). The Decidueye sand also does not have a fairy resist but I still consider it better since decidueye could at least pressure it directly while the second team includes a fast weezing to provide slightly better counterplay. Weezing fills a crucial role in that build as it sures up the Gvally matchup while also having a fast taunt to prevent recovery, preserving progress from the other breakers. I dont find lycanroc or even xatu to be manditory picks on sand either, but when trying to replace them for alternatives, these pokemon simply end up being the best options usually. Another point of awkwardness emerges when trying to replace xatu as none of the alternative flying types seem all that appealing. Talon wants to play a slower game while aero competes with lycanroc within the team (and also doesnt provide a fighting or grass resist). It is these tensions that prevent sand from being able to branch out too far and restrict the weather that usually has the most flexibility.
I think that is all i have to share about offensive structures in this tier from playing in nufl. looking forward to playing this tier in the future. any questions reach out
Look, I don't have much to say rn, but...
Silvally @ Life Orb
Ability: RKS Memory
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpDef / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly
- Swords Dance
- Multi-Attack
- Flame Charge
-Shadow Claw
I think this is a set.
I was running a team which is most likely not usable yesterday which was the following:
I don't know when I got this team but after reading C0nfident Oysters post about more offensive archetypes I decided I wanted to play some NU. So I loaded this up and played, and to be honest it felt pretty good. I don't think it would hold up because seeing a Normal Silvally is just a surprise factor in itself, however LO Stacking with Silvally was surprisingly strong even for me. With one SD and Flame Charge it can go HAM.
Now I've edited the team a little bit to have some more options as of today, now Dhelmise is running Knock Off, Vapo runs Heal Bell now, however I just wanted to post this since I do think Normal Silvally could be a play. It's already decently fast, has the same amount of options as any ol' Silvally would. It's attack is very good, and it's got a good amount of coverage. Initially I was running this team since I saw a teammate of mine running Heliolisk in NUFL (s/o Thiago) and was in a mood for it. To be quite frank (but my name isn't Frank) I don't even know if I made this team. I don't know how it got in my builder, maybe I got it from someone else maybe I edited it and don't remember. If someone else did please let me know but it's here now. Going to edit this for the future (I am unsure it would hold up) but for now it is here.
Wanted to bring this up since I think normal Silvally is very cool and fun and interesting, and wanted to see what everyone else thought of it.
Silvally @ Life Orb
Ability: RKS Memory
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpDef / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly
- Swords Dance
- Multi-Attack
- Flame Charge
-Shadow Claw
I think this is a set.
I was running a team which is most likely not usable yesterday which was the following:
I don't know when I got this team but after reading C0nfident Oysters post about more offensive archetypes I decided I wanted to play some NU. So I loaded this up and played, and to be honest it felt pretty good. I don't think it would hold up because seeing a Normal Silvally is just a surprise factor in itself, however LO Stacking with Silvally was surprisingly strong even for me. With one SD and Flame Charge it can go HAM.
Now I've edited the team a little bit to have some more options as of today, now Dhelmise is running Knock Off, Vapo runs Heal Bell now, however I just wanted to post this since I do think Normal Silvally could be a play. It's already decently fast, has the same amount of options as any ol' Silvally would. It's attack is very good, and it's got a good amount of coverage. Initially I was running this team since I saw a teammate of mine running Heliolisk in NUFL (s/o Thiago) and was in a mood for it. To be quite frank (but my name isn't Frank) I don't even know if I made this team. I don't know how it got in my builder, maybe I got it from someone else maybe I edited it and don't remember. If someone else did please let me know but it's here now. Going to edit this for the future (I am unsure it would hold up) but for now it is here.
Wanted to bring this up since I think normal Silvally is very cool and fun and interesting, and wanted to see what everyone else thought of it.
After many months of Pokeslice pretending Aerodactyl is bad so his opponents don't prep for it, I think we can all finally agree it's one of the best Pokemon in the tier.
I'm not sure who invented the Sky Attack set (either Slice or OBB), but it's a really neat tech that nukes a lot of would-be softchecks like Vileplume, Eldegoss, and Silvally Ground.
Dragon Dance sets in general have always been super potent regardless, especially because they can use Adamant > Jolly and still outpace Choice Scarf users (except Starmie). I made a post about its coverage options a long time ago and it wasn't really practical because it aimed to cover the most at once rather than hitting specific targets. Ice Fang technically hits far more targets, but Earthquake and Aqua Tail actually nail KO's that Aerodactyl needs. Dual Wingbeat is also very potent, and is part of the reason why Aerodactyl actually makes Wide Lens a valid choice. It's pretty hard to deal with a boosted Aerodactyl, especially because Unnerve negates the somewhat common Shuca Berry that Pokemon like Toxicroak and Stakataka often use. Mudsdale is pretty easy to wear down into range of Aqua Tail, and sometimes struggles to hit Aerodactyl anyway.
Aerodactyl's defensive profile is also quite amazing, checking Salazzle (something I'd nominate to S rank in this metagame) when very few other Pokemon are up for the task. Aerodactyl is a proactive Stealth Rock setter, threatening the most common hazard control options in Xatu and Talonflame, while also being the perfect solution to the problem of finding a Stealth Rock setter that doesn't bring the average base speed of your team down to sub-40.
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Stealing this linebreak thing from Slice ^ and while I'm ragging on him, I'd like to showcase some of the MANY ways to check and pressure Vileplume in the metagame. while also explaining why Vileplume is not broken in the builder or in battles.
Firstly let's look at the data from NUPL. 6 uses and 3 wins are not the numbers of a Pokemon that is destroying the tier. Of course usage and win statistics aren't everything, and uncommon Pokemon can have profound effects on the builder if their answers are limited. However, this is not the case for Vileplume either.
Before continuing I'd like to establish the fact that Vileplume is going to be a team's Knock Off absorber 99% of the time. It is so good at this role that it occasionally even forgoes an item altogether when serving as a Poltergeist switchin. Knowing this, along with the fact that Vileplume has deceptively poor bulk (75 HP and 85 Defense), it is incredibly easy to wear Vileplume down and overwhelm it.
Our resident Poison-types can all comfortably sit in front of Vileplume for days. Of course Vileplume has annoying utility moves like Sleep Powder and Corrosive Gas, but Vileplume can only use at the absolute most two of these.
I'm not going to pull up with some Regirock vs Snorlax example (Aawin will get this one) to justify Drampa as some savior of the tier, but blocking Strength Sap is a genuine way to completely invalidate Vileplume. Of course neither Drampa nor Xatu appreciate taking a Sludge Bomb, but denying Strength Sap when considering how easy it is to wear down Vileplume, I'd say it's a worthwhile trade to let your Xatu get poisoned in exchange for removing an S rank Pokemon. Strength Sap can be taken advantage of in other ways too, namely by Articuno-Galar's Competitive ability but also Malamar's Contrary ability. Articuno-Galar's combination of solid all-around bulk and Future Sight makes it an amazing check to Vileplume teams, creating deadly combos with Future Sight + physical attacks that Vileplume simply can't take. Malamar is for all intents and purposes a budget Scrafty, but its ability to beat Vileplume is worth nothing.
Finally, there are too many wallbreakers that can OHKO Vileplume to list, but a few of my favorites are Exploud, Vanilluxe, Starmie, Salazzle, and Aurorus, with many others who are just shy of those damage benchmarks but still apply immense pressure anyway. A smart double switch or two renders a Vileplume completely useless mid-game, especially with hazards up. Physical attackers that can shrug off Vileplume's utility moves like Escavalier or Glastrier are great picks in the current metagame, too.
I'm not sure who invented the Sky Attack set (either Slice or OBB), but it's a really neat tech that nukes a lot of would-be softchecks like Vileplume, Eldegoss, and Silvally Ground.
Dragon Dance sets in general have always been super potent regardless, especially because they can use Adamant > Jolly and still outpace Choice Scarf users (except Starmie). I made a post about its coverage options a long time ago and it wasn't really practical because it aimed to cover the most at once rather than hitting specific targets. Ice Fang technically hits far more targets, but Earthquake and Aqua Tail actually nail KO's that Aerodactyl needs. Dual Wingbeat is also very potent, and is part of the reason why Aerodactyl actually makes Wide Lens a valid choice. It's pretty hard to deal with a boosted Aerodactyl, especially because Unnerve negates the somewhat common Shuca Berry that Pokemon like Toxicroak and Stakataka often use. Mudsdale is pretty easy to wear down into range of Aqua Tail, and sometimes struggles to hit Aerodactyl anyway.
Aerodactyl's defensive profile is also quite amazing, checking Salazzle (something I'd nominate to S rank in this metagame) when very few other Pokemon are up for the task. Aerodactyl is a proactive Stealth Rock setter, threatening the most common hazard control options in Xatu and Talonflame, while also being the perfect solution to the problem of finding a Stealth Rock setter that doesn't bring the average base speed of your team down to sub-40.
===================================================================================================
Stealing this linebreak thing from Slice ^ and while I'm ragging on him, I'd like to showcase some of the MANY ways to check and pressure Vileplume in the metagame. while also explaining why Vileplume is not broken in the builder or in battles.
Firstly let's look at the data from NUPL. 6 uses and 3 wins are not the numbers of a Pokemon that is destroying the tier. Of course usage and win statistics aren't everything, and uncommon Pokemon can have profound effects on the builder if their answers are limited. However, this is not the case for Vileplume either.
Before continuing I'd like to establish the fact that Vileplume is going to be a team's Knock Off absorber 99% of the time. It is so good at this role that it occasionally even forgoes an item altogether when serving as a Poltergeist switchin. Knowing this, along with the fact that Vileplume has deceptively poor bulk (75 HP and 85 Defense), it is incredibly easy to wear Vileplume down and overwhelm it.
Our resident Poison-types can all comfortably sit in front of Vileplume for days. Of course Vileplume has annoying utility moves like Sleep Powder and Corrosive Gas, but Vileplume can only use at the absolute most two of these.
I'm not going to pull up with some Regirock vs Snorlax example (Aawin will get this one) to justify Drampa as some savior of the tier, but blocking Strength Sap is a genuine way to completely invalidate Vileplume. Of course neither Drampa nor Xatu appreciate taking a Sludge Bomb, but denying Strength Sap when considering how easy it is to wear down Vileplume, I'd say it's a worthwhile trade to let your Xatu get poisoned in exchange for removing an S rank Pokemon. Strength Sap can be taken advantage of in other ways too, namely by Articuno-Galar's Competitive ability but also Malamar's Contrary ability. Articuno-Galar's combination of solid all-around bulk and Future Sight makes it an amazing check to Vileplume teams, creating deadly combos with Future Sight + physical attacks that Vileplume simply can't take. Malamar is for all intents and purposes a budget Scrafty, but its ability to beat Vileplume is worth nothing.
Finally, there are too many wallbreakers that can OHKO Vileplume to list, but a few of my favorites are Exploud, Vanilluxe, Starmie, Salazzle, and Aurorus, with many others who are just shy of those damage benchmarks but still apply immense pressure anyway. A smart double switch or two renders a Vileplume completely useless mid-game, especially with hazards up. Physical attackers that can shrug off Vileplume's utility moves like Escavalier or Glastrier are great picks in the current metagame, too.
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if you've seen my scouter you know what i think about aero. phenomenal mon. its defensive profile + pressure is incredibly useful. only switchin to lazzle that's faster than it, which makes encore significantly less threatening. even without a boost life orb is a scary core breaker. plus everything else stories said, appreciate her post so i don't have to write a book on how good it is.
also agree with her on plume. the last time i remember reading plume is broken discourse, every replay came from plume soloing muds/vap/copper/defog talon builds that completely neglected plume in the builder.
i think in hindsight not banning silvally-g was the one no ban vote i regret. in the nuwc with the no silv-g/rotom/plume meta not having groundvally around made the builder so much better. with that said im not sure theres been a replay post 2023 that would support the gvally broken argument
some miscellaneous thoughts--
spikes are awesome for wearing down steel + wish pass but removal is reliable and the setters of them are
"trade offer: one layer for +2 groundvally", "damn it they brought xatu", and "HO it is". maybe one day staka will be taking entry hazard damage in games but we are far from the day
drapion is quite good still. pair it with a xatu and you will find yourself making way more progress than it has any reason to against mudsdale squads just by staying in for 3-5 turns at a time clicking stab moves as your opponent tries doubling muds out of the xatu switch. avoid loading it into gastrodon, however
vr could certainly use some cleaning up. i cannot recall a game since gen 9 dropped with a magneton, golbat, or gourgeist small
some good sets ive not seen others use:
subpunch croak (with poison touch, if your team can swing it). run adamant and enough sp def so plume cannot break sub. if you switch in on plume infestation or leech seed, subbing actually removes those effects. breaks grounds quite well, especially with ptouch, and will solo most stall builds
sd dhelmise with lum. gets a ton of mileage out of early game clicking sd in front of vap or muds going for protect or tox. anchor shot/heavy slam/synth is the fourth. if you go synth definitely run a bulkier spread, i usually go nascar otherwise. anchor shot is preferable if you think your opp will bring guzzlord, otherwise hslam makes breaking plume and weezing much cleaner
also agree with her on plume. the last time i remember reading plume is broken discourse, every replay came from plume soloing muds/vap/copper/defog talon builds that completely neglected plume in the builder.
i think in hindsight not banning silvally-g was the one no ban vote i regret. in the nuwc with the no silv-g/rotom/plume meta not having groundvally around made the builder so much better. with that said im not sure theres been a replay post 2023 that would support the gvally broken argument
some miscellaneous thoughts--
spikes are awesome for wearing down steel + wish pass but removal is reliable and the setters of them are
"trade offer: one layer for +2 groundvally", "damn it they brought xatu", and "HO it is". maybe one day staka will be taking entry hazard damage in games but we are far from the day
drapion is quite good still. pair it with a xatu and you will find yourself making way more progress than it has any reason to against mudsdale squads just by staying in for 3-5 turns at a time clicking stab moves as your opponent tries doubling muds out of the xatu switch. avoid loading it into gastrodon, however
vr could certainly use some cleaning up. i cannot recall a game since gen 9 dropped with a magneton, golbat, or gourgeist small
some good sets ive not seen others use:
subpunch croak (with poison touch, if your team can swing it). run adamant and enough sp def so plume cannot break sub. if you switch in on plume infestation or leech seed, subbing actually removes those effects. breaks grounds quite well, especially with ptouch, and will solo most stall builds
sd dhelmise with lum. gets a ton of mileage out of early game clicking sd in front of vap or muds going for protect or tox. anchor shot/heavy slam/synth is the fourth. if you go synth definitely run a bulkier spread, i usually go nascar otherwise. anchor shot is preferable if you think your opp will bring guzzlord, otherwise hslam makes breaking plume and weezing much cleaner