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Seismitoad is terrible without wish support and even then it's hard to heal seism if the vish player knows how to apply pressure on the wisher. I'd say that you need a strong fish check (seismitoad, vaporeon, gastodon) + toxapex in order to not lose against a good player. Toxapex with baneful is one of the few ways vish gets hurt in a game, and you have infinite hps thanks to regenerator, which makes pp stalling fishious an option. It's still hard since this fucker has access to psychic fangs, but still.
Also running dugtrio+vish is really good since it can trap toxapex and get Seism in range of psychic fangs.
^ - I disagree with Dracovish dropping. True, it does nothing most games but, don't forget the fact that it does nothing because people are over-preparing for it. Seismitoad and Vaporeon are being used a lot to keep this mon in check. Toad is even paired up with wish partners from time to time in order to prevent massive chip damage. It should never drop from A- because this mon is too centralizing.
this is some impressively flawed logic, so let me hit you with the rabia special real quick. it doesn't matter how centralizing a Pokemon is; if teams are overprepared for it it becomes less viable as a result. no ifs, ands, or buts. if Dracovish in most games does absolutely fuck all, then it is 100% not worthy of its current ranking; A rank Pokemon should require minimal support to function at a high level. what you've described to me is something that requires immense support to be more than a dead teamslot most of the time.
this is some impressively flawed logic, so let me hit you with the rabia special real quick. it doesn't matter how centralizing a Pokemon is; if teams are overprepared for it it becomes less viable as a result. no ifs, ands, or buts. if Dracovish in most games does absolutely fuck all, then it is 100% not worthy of its current ranking; A rank Pokemon should require minimal support to function at a high level. what you've described to me is something that requires immense support to be more than a dead teamslot most of the time.
I can't say I agree with this. Not defending the post that you were responding to because it wasn't good, but I see a couple of issues here:
1. Vish isn't really a dead teamslot ever, even if theres a healthy seis or something sat there it can 3hko it with crunch/psyfangs, and seis is extremely prone to being worn down, so really you can easily overwhelm it with some offensive pressure.
2. I wouldn't say removing 1 mon is "immense support", every mon in the meta needs a mon chipped/removed in order to sweep a well built team, and considering every good dracovish check dies to pretty much any grass move they aren't hard mons to remove via lures (the ones that don't die to grass moves die to vishs coverage, which people ignore for some reason).
3. The VRs primary function is a threatlist, to show newer users not only what to use, but what to prepare for. If highly centralising mons are chucked to the lower ranks because they have 1 very prominent check then idt the VRs doing its job of showing newer users what to prepare for, as it gives the impression vish (or any other mon this happens to) is a niche pick when it's one of the most thought about mons in the teambuilding process.
Pretty much everyone has an extremely polarised view of vish, thinking its either S rank/suspect worthy or thinks its completely garbage and should be somewhere in the B ranks or even lower. The truth is it's somewhere in the middle, extremely threatening but not particularly splashable due to the prominence of seis. If you look at the stuff in B+ currently, they have larger issues than seis (ttar is literally removed by the 1 mon holding it back, rather than just forced out, hatterene is largely outclassed by clef, etc) so I think its fair to say vish is above these mons and shouldn't drop.
On other matters, sylv really needs to rise, its extremely useful for checking hydra and pult as well as being a great wishpasser in order to keep teammates such as seis healthy, and B+ doesn't represent its usefulness.
I think Flareon is fine where he is. Too limited to move up, but it's niche is too viable to go completely unranked. I wouldn't use it as a Hydreigon answer either cause I don't think you can really afford to run Superpower and even with it, you only reliable check the scarf set. Yawn>will-o too imo, it's here for Clef and Clef doesn't give a shit about burns.
I honestly think nomming Dracovish down on the basis of Water Absorb users being omnipresent is a little... I dunno, short-sighted? Like yeah sure it’s all well and good to say that it has a hard job doing anything as long as Seismi or whatever else is still around, but ultimately having something as nutso as Dracovish that isn’t really switched into by anything else puts a lot of pressure onto the Seismitoad player to switch into Dracovish pretty much every time it comes out, which can then be very easily abused by the Dracovish player to generate momentum with a smart double switch or whatever, and this is before factoring in just how easy it is to wear its stops down (namely Seismi) or entry hazards or mons that share Vish’s checks or whatever.
And even past that the teambuilder pressure it exerts at every single moment is utterly insane—option viability in Pokemon isn’t just a matter of “how much does this do in the vacuum of each individual game?”, but also one of “how much does this constrain team structures?” Any amount of in-game nonsense is going to be counterbalanced by the fact that Dracovish is so ridiculously over-centralising that you are essentially forced to bring one or two of that very small handful of consistent checks if you want your team to be viable on a larger scale, and I think its current rank reflects that balance of “the abundance of its small handful of checks make it difficult to do its job on an individual level” and “but if they don’t bring those their team is probably not viable” perfectly.
I honestly think nomming Dracovish down on the basis of Water Absorb users being omnipresent is a little... I dunno, short-sighted? Like yeah sure it’s all well and good to say that it has a hard job doing anything as long as Seismi or whatever else is still around, but ultimately having something as nutso as Dracovish that isn’t really switched into by anything else puts a lot of pressure onto the Seismitoad player to switch into Dracovish pretty much every time it comes out, which can then be very easily abused by the Dracovish player to generate momentum with a smart double switch or whatever, and this is before factoring in just how easy it is to wear its stops down (namely Seismi) or entry hazards or mons that share Vish’s checks or whatever.
And even past that the teambuilder pressure it exerts at every single moment is utterly insane—option viability in Pokemon isn’t just a matter of “how much does this do in the vacuum of each individual game?”, but also one of “how much does this constrain team structures?” Any amount of in-game nonsense is going to be counterbalanced by the fact that Dracovish is so ridiculously over-centralising that you are essentially forced to bring one or two of that very small handful of consistent checks if you want your team to be viable on a larger scale, and I think its current rank reflects that balance of “the abundance of its small handful of checks make it difficult to do its job on an individual level” and “but if they don’t bring those their team is probably not viable” perfectly.
Completely agree with this. Dracovish puts a lot of pressure on basically any team, even if they do have Seismitoad. It's so easy to repeatedly double on Seismitoad because it's usually literally the only pokemon on a team that can switch into Fisheous Rend, so the risk value of predicting a double as a defender is just too high. When you add entry hazards into the mix or just the sheer fact that Seismitoad has no reliable recovery, it can be a pretty tricky to play around. I don't want to oversimplify this matchup since if you have a Seismitoad and they have Dracovish, you can almost guarantee that they will be double switching a lot, but there's been many matches where even tho I'm 95% sure they will double, I still have to fall prey to it just because you have to respect Fisheous Rend. At the start of a match where you're less likely to make big defensive gambles, the Dracovish player can use this quite a bit to set the momentum of the game.
Ofc, this isn't a dynamic exclusive to Dracovish and I'm still undecided about it, but it's way too crude to just be like "oh, i have water absorb, dracovish is now useless". It's also funny how Water Absorb is a highly recommended ability to have on many teams, yet Rain is in the decline and there's virtually no other offensive water types going around (I guess Crawdaunt is pretty good, but its checks don't even really overlap with Dracovish at all so it's not like you're even covering all your water type threats, Gyarados has power whip too).
this is some impressively flawed logic, so let me hit you with the rabia special real quick. it doesn't matter how centralizing a Pokemon is; if teams are overprepared for it it becomes less viable as a result. no ifs, ands, or buts. if Dracovish in most games does absolutely fuck all, then it is 100% not worthy of its current ranking; A rank Pokemon should require minimal support to function at a high level. what you've described to me is something that requires immense support to be more than a dead teamslot most of the time.
BlueLobster & Martin pretty much hit the nail on the head on what I meant to say for Dracovish. But I'll definitely go into better detail as to why Dracovish being over-prepared does make it viable: yes ifs, ands, or buts.
Dracovish isn't doing much in a lot of games its in because of the omnipresence of water absorb mons + support. This goes to show that players do not want to give Dracovish any breathing room whatsoever. That's how dangerous it is as a threat.
If you don't bring a water absorb mon, Dracovish will basically break holes very quickly with minimal support due to how no mon w/o water absorb can switch-in. But to go even a step further and say that even having Seismitoad or Vaporeon isn't enough, you still need even more support to guarantee that Dracovish can't break holes since it can still wear down both defensive checks with hazard support and coverage moves. So, you need to provide wish support for Seismitoad with cores like Wish Clefable + Seismitoad and Sylveon + Seismitoad. And for Vaporeon you need to provide mons that can switch-in to predicted coverage moves with cores like Ferrothorn + Vaporeon and Corviknight + Vaporeon.
Not only that but, Dracovish is the reason why people don't run slower teams w/o a water absorb mon, otherwise you get steam rolled by scarf Dracovish or banded Dracovish under rain, sticky webs, or Trick Room.
And another big point to add is that, these cores aren't even that great. Just like how many players have discussed, Seismitoad does not even do much in SPL matches. A lot of these defensive cores get eaten by NP LO Hydreigon or get weakened by Dugtrio. A lot of Offensive Ghost cores are just tearing these cores up. And it's all thanks to Dracovish.
So in a way, it actually is doing a lot, just not in games. It's doing a lot by pressuring team building and making other team styles and mons less viable by existing. You are right in knowing the definition of an A rank Pokemon "should require minimal support to function at a high level" but, Dracovish is a very special pokemon; every team requires heavy support in order to not get beat down by Dracovish. Once Seismitoad cores get figured out, Dracovish will probably become too big of a threat to keep out of being in top ranks.
Sorry people for the first post, should of went into more detail with the claims.
This Vish argument reminds me a lot of the "Is Ash-Gren S rank" argument. We're out here talking about another supremely powerful mon with 1 set but it also has checks and counters. My opinion is that Vish deserves its rank because it is both centralizing and completely devastating if inadequately prepared for.
People run seismitoad and Vaporeon (esp Vap) because they stop Vish, not because they're all that good in their own right. If you have no counter to Banded Fishious Rend and are facing a Vish with something slower than it, chances are it's going to maim or kill something. So, the logical conclusion is that you run multiple lines of defense to keep it at bay or else you lose - and even if you do run Vap or a wish core with Toad, there's no guarantee that these mons are going to be healthy and uncontested the whole match until it's time to check Vish.
This horse has probably been beaten to death by now but centralizing mons are almost by definition viable - if they weren't viable then it wouldn't be worth the team slots we devoted to checking them
This Vish argument reminds me a lot of the "Is Ash-Gren S rank" argument. We're out here talking about another supremely powerful mon with 1 set but it also has checks and counters. My opinion is that Vish deserves its rank because it is both centralizing and completely devastating if inadequately prepared for.
People run seismitoad and Vaporeon (esp Vap) because they stop Vish, not because they're all that good in their own right. If you have no counter to Banded Fishious Rend and are facing a Vish with something slower than it, chances are it's going to maim or kill something. So, the logical conclusion is that you run multiple lines of defense to keep it at bay or else you lose - and even if you do run Vap or a wish core with Toad, there's no guarantee that these mons are going to be healthy and uncontested the whole match until it's time to check Vish.
This horse has probably been beaten to death by now but centralizing mons are almost by definition viable - if they weren't viable then it wouldn't be worth the team slots we devoted to checking them
I think the difference here is Ash-Gren had checks that were generally more splashable and effective overall, whereas Vish's checks tend to be mostly dead weight (and no, ferropex cores do not check Vish unless you know it's scarfed). Ash-Gren was checked by FerroPex, by Tapu Fini, by Rotom-W sometimes etc. All these mons could bring more to a team than not getting run over by Ash-Gren. Ash-Gren also had more counterplay based around preventing it transforming. Vish is an instant threat. While you don't have to worry about it being another set (see Protean Gren), you don't have time to play around it and limit its influence on the game. I also think Toad is one innovation away from not being a Vish check. Let's not forget Vish has EdgeQuake if it wishes to use it to break would-be checks, and Toad has no recovery and is easy to hence wear down and possibly trap lategame.
This Vish argument reminds me a lot of the "Is Ash-Gren S rank" argument. We're out here talking about another supremely powerful mon with 1 set but it also has checks and counters.
First off; very nice analogy. Only thing is, as theotherguytm points out (as I was writing this haha), Vish's checks are not on the same level as Ash-Gren's.
Adding onto already existing discussion, my view is that Dracovish is a fine A- pokemon. Dropping it down into the B+ rank as it stands is, in my opinion, just not an accurate reflection of how good Dracovish is.
That being said, I would have to agree with Rabia in that the presence of 1 or 2 dracovish counters and/or checks on the vast majority of teams, alongside the support it necessitates, indicate that it should be a B+ pokemon. Vish is highly prepped for, but with the right support, it can still do work against well built teams that have answers for it when played right. I would say that by this definition Vish fits a B+ Pokemon. However, I would argue that this is counterbalanced by a few factors.
Firstly, the restraints inherent to current Dracovish counters/checks, alongside the restraints that using these checks has on teambuilding. Agent Toad, the premiere Vish counter, really needs wish support. Without it, it gets chipped pretty easily over the course of a match. Especially considering the support which Vish teams may opt to run. Furthermore, a well played Vish, while generally one dimensional, does put out a lot of pressure even on its own. One wrong move and you might be fine. Two wrong moves and you potentially lose the game. Other Water Absorb / Storm Drain users are also not quite as great options to put on teams anyway. Quag, the other option I will mention (which Ponty's various posts have alerted me to, thanks Ponty) while even more solid as a Vish counter, lacks some of the role compression that Toad has, and can't set rocks.
Secondly, the supports that Vish desires are not particularly difficult to fit on a team, so I would argue their negative effect on Vish's rank should be minimal. Other powerful breakers which force Toad in as the best answer; Ferrothorn and Rotom-Mow (the latter of which seeing much more usage that it did previously), stuff that neatly deals with Wish Support (stupid Duggy) etc.
Finally, I feel that a B+ ranking just doesn't do justice to the fact that Vish is bar none, one of the worst Pokemon to face with a team not built to deal with it well, or once *water absorb mon* is gone. We have to date, never seen a Pokemon in OU with quite this level of power. Not even the Icy Gorilla hit as hard.
This is all stuff we already knew. I understand reasoning for both a rise and a drop. But I feel Vish's strong points and weak points counterbalance each other nicely into an A- pokemon. Not as good as the stuff above it, but not on the same level as stuff like the Hat, or Tyranitar.
why are yall arguing about dracovish? if you actually play the game you know damn well that it and the other new dragon are very oppressive; dracovish pretty so much extraordinarily so that 90% of teams carry a water immunity or multiple ones. like you canot possibly believe that it's low tier bc it warps and oppresses the ladder so much. heres the thing, the water immunities are pretty easily taken out, especially since the majority of the main ones are 4x weak to grass and freeze dry. what happens then? does the vish magically become broken? No, it was always broken and the reason that you're carrying that in the first place.
I run max spa and max attack sash freeze dry mamo, and do you know why? it's pretty exclusively for the vish. I dont want to run those north korean level of stat distribution on my mamo; I really dont. so arguing that it's lower tier is just misguided, in fact it should be s+; we know how damn well oppressive it is and arguing otherwise is just disingenuous at this point. I’m really tired of yall running in circles and just either not actually playing the game or just being really bad at it and then coming here with your trash takes. have a great fucking day.
Other powerful breakers which force Toad in as the best answer; Ferrothorn and Rotom-Mow (the latter of which seeing much more usage that it did previously), stuff that neatly deals with Wish Support (stupid Duggy) etc.
Not to mention Dracovish can come in intentionally to draw out the Water Absorber, then double switch to Ferrothorn/Rotom-M either to take the absorber on, get rocks/spikes up, or get a free substitute off respectively if the absorber chooses to run.
Dracovish, while one-dimensional, can be versatile on how it is used, or what you're aiming to perform.
dracovish should not drop period, its one of the single biggest strains on building in the tier and if you do not prepare decently for it you will likely get crushed by it. just because people actually prepare for threats does not reduce the omnipresence of it in the builder. As with legit all good breakers, builders can build around breaking its checks down, this is not a new concept
vish also makes offenses life hard because if you cant ohko it you're fucked lol
Anyway, on another note, a hot take that will probably go down in flames just as hot: A to A-
Gengar has been doing terrible thus far in SPL. From mons bought to 5 or more games it has the joint worst winrate, and has only been used 6 times in total. Its much-hyped Tricking capabilities have been used only twice, losing both times, but its Sub set has been doing well, and utility options like Sludge Bomb and Hex have contributed a win.
Not meant to be a full nom, more of a discussion point, because the games I've seen it in have involved it getting forced out very easily. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-472045
In this week 2 game, Ima's Gengar is neutralised early-game by Hydreigon and midgame by Scarf Rotom-W. Ima's attempts to give it setup opportunities lategame fall flat and he is forced to sac it for crippling Kommo-O. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-471056
Gengar leaves it late to make his entrance in this week 1 game, but a bulky Sludge Bomb/Hex/Sub/NP set soon proves its worth to pull a comeback from 2 mons down for most of the game in connection with some smart Ferrothorn usage and Thunder Wave. It's not all plain sailing however, as no less than 5 paralysis triggers in a row are required to prevent Sylveon cleaning, with Gengar doing minimal damage to the +5/+6 mon even with a Nasty Plot boost.
Thoughts?
I'm just gonna reply to this dracovish discussion by saying that Dracovish should not drop. Using Seismitoad as a way of showing that Dracovish should not drop is not good. Almost every teammate partnered with Dracovish has some sort of check to Seismitoad, whether it be a Ferrothorn or Clefable. Soft switch into dragapult and hydreigon? Easy. That's just forcing Dracovish out to a teammate that checks those Pokemon in order to pave the way for a sweep that nothing can possibly switch into. What makes Dracovish such a good wallbreaker compared to other Pokemon such as Conkeldurr that Pokemon will have trouble switching into is that Fishious Rend will literally crush through anything **but** Water Absorbers. What switches into Conkeldurr? Corsola, Corviknight, a well predicted Clefable that can outspeed it. Though Scarf Dracovish dosent hit as hard and isnt the fastest, it can surprise a few Pokemon such as Gengar. I also agree with p2 on saying that preparing for a threat like Dracovish does not reduce the omnipresence of it, it actually increases it because you are luring in Dracovishs checks so it can be much more threatening.
On the other hand, Dracovish fits fine in A- tier and no way deserves a raise. It fails to do much in battle when its checks are up on the field, and Seismitoad is still pretty common, so you'd have to play carefully when wanting to win with Dracovish.
In other words, heres a terrible drawing I made that explains everyone has said so far in this forum:
Just a reminder that tournament statistics are not the end-all and be-all; they are a decent indicator of a Pokemon's viability, but really shouldn't be taken too seriously. Although the statistics may not entirely back it up, I personally believe that Gengar's really good in this metagame and that A is an accurate representation of its viability. It can take advantage of specially defensive Clefable very well, and will almost always proceed to make progress from there.
I'm very indifferent as to whether Dracovish should drop or not, but please realize that it is not your call to put an end to a discussion that is not yours. To anyone else: keep discussing Dracovish as much as you want, but the same arguments shouldn't constantly be regurgitated. If they are, that could end in having Dracovish blacklisted.
this is some impressively flawed logic, so let me hit you with the rabia special real quick. it doesn't matter how centralizing a Pokemon is; if teams are overprepared for it it becomes less viable as a result. no ifs, ands, or buts. if Dracovish in most games does absolutely fuck all, then it is 100% not worthy of its current ranking; A rank Pokemon should require minimal support to function at a high level. what you've described to me is something that requires immense support to be more than a dead teamslot most of the time.
This is incorrect. There are tons of historical examples I can point to of forcing your opponent's coverage options and teambuilding choices where a Pokemon's impact on the metagame requires your opponent to make what would otherwise be a suboptimal choice in teambuilder. This is an indicator of viability, especially in this case as Dracovish isn't terribly easy to lure with its absurd power level, good bulk and decent defensive typing. Seismitoad is a somewhat decent choice, but is easy to wear down and passive. Vaporeon's only real niche is beating Dracovish. Its passivity and poor movepool leave it easily taken advantage of. Forcing your opponent to make these easily exploited, suboptimal selections does not make Dracovish less viable. It would only make it so if your opponent were able to cover the threat without specifically prepping for it. An example of this is rain, which is less viable now as it's naturally covered by common answers to HO and/or Dracovish.
This is incorrect. There are tons of historical examples I can point to of forcing your opponent's coverage options and teambuilding choices where a Pokemon's impact on the metagame requires your opponent to make what would otherwise be a suboptimal choice in teambuilder. This is an indicator of viability, especially in this case as Dracovish isn't terribly easy to lure with its absurd power level, good bulk and decent defensive typing. Seismitoad is a somewhat decent choice, but is easy to wear down and passive. Vaporeon's only real niche is beating Dracovish. Its passivity and poor movepool leave it easily taken advantage of. Forcing your opponent to make these easily exploited, suboptimal selections does not make Dracovish less viable. It would only make it so if your opponent were able to cover the threat without specifically prepping for it. An example of this is rain, which is less viable now as it's naturally covered by common answers to HO and/or Dracovish.
viability is based on how well a Pokemon performs in a metagame due to the surrounding elements; almost every team has a Water immunity or multiple resists because of Dracovish. it is an objectively worse Pokemon than in previous metas and as a result less viable. I don't know how you are arguing that because people are using niche options that are otherwise bad/underwhelming/etc makes Dracovish... better? more viable? it's the opposite. most of you seem to be equating over centralizing or broken or whatever with viability imo; I don't think the terms are synonymous all the time, especially in this case.
also fwiw I wasn't arguing to drop vish in my original post--just wanted to point out flaws in another user's
edit: because you mentioned listing examples as to how vish is somehow more viable despite an increased presence of checks, allow me to give a counterexample to your nonexistent list: vanilluxe in gen7nu. iirc it was A rank yet thoroughly discussed as overbearing/overcentralizing and was thus banned. several niche pokemon including alolan sandslash, cryogonal, and miltank were used in that meta to counter/check it, and as a result its viability ranking suffered. did that make it less of a problematic presence? of course not, but trying to argue a pokemon is more viable than its rank because of the presence of niche options doesn't really do it for me.
Anyway, on another note, a hot take that will probably go down in flames just as hot: A to A-
Gengar has been doing terrible thus far in SPL. From mons bought to 5 or more games it has the joint worst winrate, and has only been used 6 times in total. Its much-hyped Tricking capabilities have been used only twice, losing both times, but its Sub set has been doing well, and utility options like Sludge Bomb and Hex have contributed a win.
Not meant to be a full nom, more of a discussion point, because the games I've seen it in have involved it getting forced out very easily. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-472045
In this week 2 game, Ima's Gengar is neutralised early-game by Hydreigon and midgame by Scarf Rotom-W. Ima's attempts to give it setup opportunities lategame fall flat and he is forced to sac it for crippling Kommo-O. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-471056
Gengar leaves it late to make his entrance in this week 1 game, but a bulky Sludge Bomb/Hex/Sub/NP set soon proves its worth to pull a comeback from 2 mons down for most of the game in connection with some smart Ferrothorn usage and Thunder Wave. It's not all plain sailing however, as no less than 5 paralysis triggers in a row are required to prevent Sylveon cleaning, with Gengar doing minimal damage to the +5/+6 mon even with a Nasty Plot boost.
Thoughts?
Gengar is another mon who should not drop, imo. This mon is so damn deadly and so versatile and so under-explored that I just can't get behind dropping it (yet). It may turn out that Gengar is actually not that good, but my bet is that, like in most generations, Gengar will be a force to be feared in OU simply because of its power and versatility. There's no saying exactly how much the loss of Pursuit helps this mon, but it's hard to really explain how important that single change has been for its continued viability.
First: Life Orb, Expert Belt, Black Sludge, Specs, and Scarf give this mon a wealth of item options - particularly because Gengar is one of the few trick users who doesn't mind picking up Black Sludge off of Pex while simultaneously scaring other walls. And along with these items come a wealth of movesets to abuse their relative strengths and weaknesses. Substitute sets allow it to abuse its tendency to cause switches, while Specs allows it to abuse its almost unrivaled SpA stat and numerous coverage options, allowing it to break all but the strongest of checks and counters. Other items like Expert Belt can allow it to fake being choiced and draw out needed KO's, while coverage options like Giga Drain or Dazzling Gleam can catch would-be counters like Hydreigon and Seismatoad off guard. Nasty Plot turns Gengar a setup sweepers with an almost unrivaled speed tier compared to other special attackers. On top of all of this, Gengar has access to niche yet powerful sets like Lick + Hex, Mean Look + Perish Song, Sub + Encore, or even Toxic stall that have yet to be fully explored in the meta.
Alright now that I've gotten that Dracovish post of the way, here are the noms I want discussed in slate.
Dugtrio A >>> A+ Agree
Duggy is kind of overwhelming at the moment. I'm of the opinion that sash is probably worth about A rank, but the banded set takes people's souls. Any Pokemon with Duggy's combination of speed, power and Arena Trap in this current metagame deserves A+ rank. Obviously it is seeing a lot of success in SPL, but this is coming from my own personal experience. It is easy to execute, never dead weight on a team and works on lots of different builds / supports a lot of different Pokemon. It honestly feels uncompetitive, but that is another discussion for another day.
Hatterene B+ >>> B Agree
The Hat with the loss of G and Dmax is not as crash hot as it used to be. Trick Room is also no longer as viable as it once was, or at least it isn't utilized nearly as often. It gets hard walled by Clefable and Sylveon, beaten down and/or revenge killed by any of the viable steel types above it (minus Ferro). It feels nice to run, but not as nice as other fairy types.
Sylveon B+ >>> A- My Own Nom
I believe Sylveon's niche over Sp. Def Clef is viable enough to warrant A- status. It just deals so well with techs that beat clef, alongside dealing with special attackers in general nicely with higher special bulk and mystical fire. There is some opportunity cost in running Sylveon over Sp. Def Clef, but it can be invaluable in situations against stuff like sub Hydra and sub Dragapult. I have been running both physically and specially defensive Sylveon and have found specially defensive to be incredibly useful in dealing with common special attackers.
Dracozolt B >>> B- Agree
Dracozolt is currently suffering from all the defensive fairy and ground types running around. Seismitoad especially, but other stuff is generally popping up everywhere. Also is easily revenge killed by the stupid 3 headed moles. Once Duggy is gone I would say that it can probably go back up to B, but for now it is a liability
Toxtricity B >>> B- Agree
Same boat as Dracozolt, the best teams are naturally resistant to Toxitricity at the moment. Ghost types, Ground Types, Steel Types and even occasionally soundproof mons. At the minimum one or two of these are present on most teams currently. Still a good pick into specific matchups, and is still a good answer to Clef / Sylveon. Meta just hasn't fallen its way at the moment.
Cloyster C+ >>> B-/B Hard Agree
I'm sorry to be joining the people riding on Cloyster's nuts, but this Pokemon is way better than anything in C+ or even in B- no? Yes it's Sp Def is atrocious, yes King's Rock is unreliable, yes priority does really well into it. Of these issues I would say priority is the biggest one. Conk in particular is rough. The work it can put in despite these things is a testament to how good it can be when played at a high level in the right matchup.
Here's what I've been running to alleviate the Conk issue. At +2 with Adamant you always knock it out, so you need to set up on something which won't hit you.
Cloyster @ White Herb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Liquidation
- Shell Smash
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 134-162 (55.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'm open to criticism on this one, as I understand there are numerous issues with Cloyster, but I genuinely believe it is severely undervalued at the moment.
Durant C- >>> C/C+ My Own Nom
Durant has been putting in work for me. It took a bit of testing to figure out what would work with it in this meta (I tried stuff like stone edge, blunder policy, it was awful). Band is solid and can act as a strong wallbreaker / revenge killer with first impression. Scarf is a solid sweeper that doesn't need first impression. I wouldn't say that it is amazing, hence why I'm not recommending it higher than C+ at the moment. I do think it is currently undervalued.
Polteageist C- >>> Unranked Hard Agree
Here's the motherfucking tea. This thing is really bad. Like... REALLY bad. It's outclassed in practically every conceivable way. I've tried making it work a few times and it just feels bad to use, and not the good kind of feels bad to use (duggy).
Quagsire C- >>> C/C+ Agree
Again, shoutouts to Mr. Ponty for putting me onto this thing. While I don't think it's quite as good as he does, I definitely see its usage rising in future as more people try it out. What you lose for not running Seismitoad is losing a bit of roll compression, the ability to set up rocks and some power. What you get is the ability to recover, and some slightly better physical defense. This does free up slots to not need wish passing, and places less of a constraint (in my opinion) on teambuilding as a result.
Ok, so my take on this:
Cloyster up:Agree. While I was vocal in opposing it going higher than C+ before, I did so on the proviso that if it saw continued success, it could keep rising until it found its correct rank. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-473406
Here is a hax-free top level example of Cloyster ripping a team apart. Dragapult does little besides weaking Mamoswine, but once it drops Cloyster sets up and destroys. On the other hand: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-473349
Cloyster gets a free switch in when Kommo-o drops on Turn 25, and an opportunity to set up on an unboosted, weakened Mimikyu. It succeeds only in killing Mimi, then Bisharp tanks a hit and destroys it. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-472881
Cloyster does nothing for most of the game, and then gets destroyed by Body Press Kommo-o. A bit much to expect it to go hard into it, but it is a good example of Cloyster's theoretically good PhyDef being undermined by its poor typing, which lessens its setup opportunities.
So I'm leaning towards B- ATM, but I'm open to the idea of B.
Sylveon to A-: Agree. See the third replay above, where Quick Attack Sylveon is able to wall Cinderace, revenge Dragapult and then beat Dugtrio 1v1. Not being trapped reliably by Duggy is a pretty big boon over Clef.
Dugtrio to A+: Massive agree, lol the A and S ranks on the VR are basically ATM "are you not trapped by Duggy", with the exception of Pex and Clef.
Gengar to A-:I'm going to disagree with my own nom here, but it's the Sub sets I want to focus on rather than the Choice sets, which face loads of competition and are incredibly fragile. Once behind a Sub, Gengar can use Sludge Bomb to try and poison switch-ins, and Hex various other statused mons. With Wish support Gengar can repeatedly set Subs and generate the free turns which it desperately needs.
Gengar in action in Week 3: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-473459
Gengar gets the freest of free switch ins to set Subs and fish for Poison with Sludge Bomb. A couple of mispredictions cost two of Gengar's teammates, and it is useless in the lategame until it finally gets sacced to Dragapult. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-472881
Same replay as the third one on Cloyster, Gengar is used for one turn to cripple Togekiss and then gets one-shotted. Worthwhile trade or dead weight? https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-473304
Bro fist brings Scarf/Specs Gengar, but thanks to the Ferrothorn and Dragapult on the opposing team he is reluctant to lock into Sludge Wave, which leaves Gengar walled by the Clef it hoped to exploit. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-473091
Gengar gets the definition of a free switch-in: A Clef with weakened SpA that gets its Moonblast disabled by Cursed Body AND Gengar is passed a Wish at the same time. From there Gengar beats a Scarf Dracovish 1v1 thanks to its Sub and successfully fishes for Poison against its check Mandibuzz.
Hopefully this should provoke some discussion on Gengar's sets, as I think the Sub set looks really good, especially as Gengar is immune or resistant to most sound moves. Nasty Plot+Sub seems interesting too.
Hello everyone, the results of the second slate are up.
The following things were voted on:
Nomination
Dugtrio
A to A+ or S
Excadrill
A to A+
Kommo-O
A- to A
Togekiss
B+ to A-
Sylveon
B+ to A-
Rotom-Wash
B to B+
Bisharp
B to B+
Grimmsnarl
B to B+
Sigilyph
B- to B or B+
Crawdaunt
B- to B
Gyarados
B- to B
Snorlax
B- to B
Cloyster (C+)
C+, B-, B, or B+
Mew
C+ to B-
Centiskorch
C+ to B-
Pelipper
C+ to B-
Haxorus
C to C+
Quagsire
C- to C
Chandelure
UR to C- or C
Diggersby
UR to C- or C
Morpeko
UR to C- or C
Rhyperior
UR to C- or C
Ludicolo
UR to C- or C
Seismitoad
A+ to A
Conkeldurr
A to A-
Hatterene (B+)
A-, B+, B, or B-
Cinderace
B+ to B
Tyranitar (B+)
A-, B+, B, or B-
Toxtricity (B)
B+, B, B-, or C+
Ditto (B)
B+, B, B-, or C+
Hawlucha
B to B-
Dracozolt
B to B-
Barraskewda
C to C-
Drednaw
C to C-
Polteageist
C- to UR
After the OU VR Council both voted on and discussed all of these Pokemon, the following changes will be made to the OU VR:
Rises
from A to A+: Dugtrio has risen in prominence as of late. It is a top Pokemon in the tier; it is able to trap a number of relevant threats and limit gameplay/building significantly. Dugtrio is very deserving of a place in A+.
from A to A+: Excadrill may be walled pretty hard by Corviknight, but it offers plenty of utility and offensive presence nevertheless while sitting on Clefable. Rapid Spin improving coupled with Swords Dance making it a threat to sweep a lot of teams makes Excadrill a great pick currently.
from A- to A+: Kommo-O is better now than it ever has been in OU. Body Press has served it very well, but also it has a typing and ability combination that allow for it to check a ton of things that are common, making it a fantastic Stealth Rock setter and utility pick in general.
from B+ to A-: Togekiss may be lagging behind Clefable in popularity, but Nasty Plot variants are still great; they are awkward to play against for a lot of teams. On top of this, choice items can be used on it in conjunction with Trick, which also can help cripple a number of common switch-ins.
from B+ to A-: Speaking of other Fairy types, Sylveon can function as another Fairy type with the ability to pass wishes. It has a it more firepower behind it naturally as well as access to Fire move Mystical Fire and much more natural bulk on the special side. However, it still lacks Magic Guard, which leaves it well below Clefable in overall viability. It sees a slight rise as people are getting used to pairing it with status absorbers and removal is fairly common.
from B- to B+: Magic Guard is great; it enables Sigilyph to run a Life Orb set with 3 attacks or Calm Mind that can be quite good in the current metagame. Additionally, it can also run some other niche options, making it pretty strong overall.
from B- to B: Crawdaunt is really strong in a tier that sees a ton of balanced teams circulating. Not much more to it.
from B- to B: Snorlax uses Curse and sometimes sweeps teams after using Curse. Sometimes, it takes a trick or is a liability through passivity against teams that are prepared. It seems to beat a decent number of teams giving it rising in rank, but that is about all I can offer on it.
from C+ to B+: Shell Smash Cloyster is about as cheesy as it gets. It is one of the most potent threats in the metagame, dominating the ladder and creeping into more tournament games each week. With this said, it does require some support, have plenty of checks, and can bank on luck for effectiveness at times. It is much more accurately ranked in B+ than C+ though.
Newly Ranked Pokemon
from UR to C+: Specs Chandelure is a nuke, but it is hard to justify it much higher given how good other Ghosts are.
from UR to C+: Rhyperior is a cool SR setter on some teams, but it requires more support than some others and it does not check the same things Seismitoad does, which can make building awkward at times.
from UR to C: Rain sweeper at times. Still pretty uncommon, but worth ranking at least.
from UR to C-: Well, it hits hard and it does not always die in one hit, so I guess there's a niche there.
Drops
from A+ to A: Teams varying a little more and this thing is simply not on all of them because of that, so it sees a little drop.
from B+ to B: Cinderace was hyped up during the early weeks of the metagame, but now it is growing less common with time and it is sort of a drag defensively, so perhaps that is a large reason why in a predominantly balanced tier.
from B to B-: The post-Dynamax ban Ditto drops continue.
from B to B-: This thing sucks in Dugtrio: the tier, especially when it misses as frequently as it does.
from C to C-: Rain teams are popping up again, but not with this guy on them much.
from C to C-: ^
Newly Unranked Pokemon
from C- to UR: Not really sure why it clung on to a ranking to begin with. It is frail and limited to what it can do. And even with what it can do, it still finds itself walled by a number of good Pokemon, making it not worthwhile currently.
---
Thanks again to everyone for posting nominations, their thoughts, and so much more! We were able to address dozens of different posts made throughout our voting and discussion; hopefully this was reflected in the slate and changes in rankings that it prompted. I am going to open this up again now, so feel free to post about new nominations so long as you follow the forum rules. Posts questioning the slate should not be posted here as these will be regarded as off-topic seeing as they are not nominations or discussion of previously made nominations.
Pex A+ ->A or A-
This thing is way too high. Going through the higher ranks:
Sub BU corv sets up on it, best case is that corv is defog and you can burn it, but then it keeps your toxic spikes off the field
LO clef 2HKOs it and defensive uses it as wish fodder
Specs aegislash 2HKOs with shadow ball, it can beat physical aegislash though
Specs dragapult gets a guaranteed 2HKO after rocks with draco, and Tbolt exists
Dugtrio traps it
excadrill 2HKOs with earthquake
It can beat non BD kommo-O
Rotom and Hydreigon set up and kill
Conk switchs in and EQs
Mandibuzz can defog and knock it off
Toad beats it unless toxic
Gengar can trick specs, absorb tspikes, thunderbolt or set up
worst it can do to ferro is burn it
Hippo does way too much with earthquake
It is not a proper check to dracovich, unless you keep it at full and run baneful bunker and keep rain away
Togekiss sets up on it
Sylveon wish passes on it
I feel like It doesn't actually wall very much, it never jumps out at me whilst building and its just stupid passive. It would also love to run haze, recover, baneful bunker, toxic, scald and toxic spikes but has to forgo one of these, and then lose to a bunch of stuff that it would like to beat. Atm its main redeeming factor is that its nice vs cloyster, but even then the best it can do back is haze, fish for scald burns and pray that rock blast doesn't flinch twice
A to A-
