Lower Tiers SS SU Discussion + Resources

[missangelic]

Approved by Slowpoke Fan and the SS mod team

Artwork by loveycloud
SS SU Discussion Thread​

This thread is dedicated to SS Sub-Zero Used (SU), which is the lowest unofficial tier on Smogon and below ZU. SS SU had a small following when SS was the current gen, and its tierlist was based on the usage stats from the SS ZU ladder. SS SU has seen forum tournaments, such as SS SU Sendoff and SS SU Open, and it's also supported through smaller tournaments and scheduled roomtours through the SU Discord. With the creation of this thread, there's now a place to discuss SS SU on the Smogon forum!

Pokemon tiered as ZU

Accelgor, Alcremie, Altaria, Articuno, Coalossal, Cofagrigus, Cryogonal, Dugtrio-Alola, Froslass, Gurdurr, Klinklang, Lickilicky, Lilligant, Manectric, Miltank, Morpeko, Ninjask, Palossand, Piloswine, Qwilfish, Rapidash, Rhydon, Rotom, Runerigus, Sableye, Sawk, Silvally-Poison, Skuntank, Stunfisk, Tangela, Thwackey, Uxie

SUBL

Pokemon/elements banned from SU: Liepard, Silvally-Dark, Electric Seed, Heat Rock

SU also observes all transitive bans from higher tiers, including bans, such as the NU Drought and ZU Grassy Seed bans

Resources

Viability Rankings

SS SU Viability Rankings
Last update: May 2025

S Ranks

S​

Alolan Persian

S-​

Kangaskhan

Galarian Rapidash


A Ranks

A+​

Cramorant

Electivire

Gourgeist-Super

Ninetales

Mr. Rime

Throh

A​

Clefairy

Golbat

Jynx

Kabutops

Pawniard

Poliwrath

Raichu

Roselia

Silvally-Fighting

Galarian Stunfisk

A-​

Bouffalant

Cradily

Gourgeist-Small

Lycanroc-Midnight

Metang

Rotom-Fan

Silvally-Water


B Ranks

B+​

Abomasnow

Appletun

Galarian Corsola

Crustle

Falinks

Hitmonchan

Lurantis

Marowak

Mawile

Shiftry

Shiinotic

Silvally

B​

Boltund

Butterfree

Carracosta

Drifblim

Exeggutor

Klang

Lunatone

Musharna

Pyukumuku

Silvally-Electric

Silvally-Fire

Spiritomb

Type: Null

Thievul

B-​

Avalugg

Combusken

Duosion

Flapple

Kadabra

Mareanie

Silvally-Grass

Silvally-Psychic

Silvally-Rock

Slowpoke

Trevenant


C Ranks

C+​

Bellossom

Carbink

Fraxure

Gabite

Leafeon

Ludicolo

Mr. Mime

Galarian Mr. Mime

Orbeetle

Pincurchin

Pinsir

Raboot

Seaking

Shuckle
Whiscash

C​

Beheeyem

Carkol

Cursola

Ditto

Dubwool

Dugtrio

Golduck

Hippopotas

Ivysaur

Noctowl

Silvally-Flying

Solrock

Swoobat

Vibrava
Wigglytuff

Visual

Personal VR Tool: Link

Challenge Code

/challenge gen8zu @@@ -Accelgor, -Alcremie, -Altaria, -Articuno, -Coalossal, -Cofagrigus, -Cryogonal, -Dugtrio-Alola, -Froslass, -Gurdurr, -Klinklang, -Lickilicky, -Lilligant, -Manectric, -Miltank, -Morpeko, -Ninjask, -Palossand, -Piloswine, -Poison Memory, -Qwilfish, -Rapidash, +Rapidash-Galar, -Rhydon, -Rotom, +Rotom-Fan, -Runerigus, -Sableye, -Sawk, -Skuntank, -Stunfisk, +Stunfisk-Galar, -Tangela, -Thwackey, -Uxie, -Dark Memory, -Electric Seed, -Heat Rock, -Liepard

SU Discord
Speed Tiers
Set Compendium
Role Compendium

Sample Teams

https://pokepast.es/a513df928b3923f1
https://pokepast.es/bd2b5bfb2ac6d308
https://pokepast.es/360ddbf7d55bdd93
https://pokepast.es/5a5123a41d118285
https://pokepast.es/d24f3dac4a946785
https://pokepast.es/1801723f450968e6
https://pokepast.es/459afb5a332dbe5c
More TBA following SS SU Open!

Council: missangelic (SU leader), 5Dots, Slowpoke Fan, sleid, DoomBre1oom

 

[missangelic]

Reserved

 

[DoomBre1oom]

Hello, I am starting off this thread with my personal VR! I will explain my choices for A Tier and above, and provide some reasonings for a few of the mons below that threshold. Mons are NOT rated within the tiers the are in.

S TIER:

Persian-Alolan - Extremely effective bulky pivot due to its absolutely phenomenal speed tier and ability, Fur Coat. Is also a quality check to the most potent SD sweeper in the tier, Rapidash-Galarian. Access to knock off is great to cripple the numerous NFEs in the tier.
Throh - Throh has always been seen as a solid special wall in the tier, even getting solid usage in ZU, but the most recent Forum Tour has truly shown just how phenomenal this mon is. Very little mons can hit it hard enough to not get trapped in a Rest-Talk cycle and it's physical output is nothing to look over.
Rapidash-Galarian - I do believe that Rapidash-Galarian is the best mon in the tier. Its ability to set-up as both a physical and special attacker, along with its spectacular speed, make it very hard to play and prep against.
Kangaskhan - This most recent Forum Tour has not been kind to Kangashkan, but I still believe it to be one of the top 4 choices here in SU due to its sheer breaking capabilities and nasty priority options.

A+ TIER:

Clefairy - Amazing special wall that has the added ability of setting Rocks and disrupting opponents with Knock Off and Thunder Wave.
Ninetales - Great Nasty Plot mon that can dish out attacks to many of the top mons in the tier with its wide movepool and great speed stat
Cramorant - I hereby apologize for calling it overrated after my tour win at the beginning of 2024. It is now my faithful companion that I hate having off of any team I make. Cramorant is the best defogger in the tier. Making it very difficult to handle, due to Surf -> Gulp Missile.
Mr. Rime - The most premier spinner in the tier. STAB Freeze Dry and Psyshock make it a dangerous to switch into, especially considering that most of the ghost Rapid Spin blockers do not appreciate taking a Freeze Dry, such as Gourgeist-Super and Drifblim.
Gourgeist-Super - The most premier physical wall in the tier that had its stock increased due to a rising in it's Synth + 3 Attack set.

A TIER:

Golbat - Quality Nasty Plot user that has access to recovery and a surprising bit of bulk while using Eviolite. Has also seen usage with a Defog and Pivot set.
Poliwrath - A wall that is just a step down from Throh, due to its weaknesses to the wide variety of Electric-types in the tier and its lack of Knock Off. Can also be used as a serviceable Sub & Bulk-Up sweeper or a Belly Drum sweeper if you dare.
Pawniard & Roselia - RosePawn has always been a wonderful choice for a team-build and they are even greater due to having a premier phazer here in Throh.
Raichu & Electivire - For the longest time, Electivire was seen as the pinnacle of Electric Pivots, but I think Raichu is neck and neck with it. Electivire is great due to its wide movepool and ability to work as a Physical and Special Attacker. However, I think Raichu rises due to the same reason Electivire falls, which is the high-usage Cramorant and Stunfisk-Galarian Core. Raichu doesn't have to get stuck on a move and play the guessing game when facing off against the duo because it has a high enough speed stat to not have to rely on Choice Scarf.
Jynx - Stellar breaker with Choice Specs and can also be extremely deadly if you wish to take your chances with 75% accurate Lovely Kiss. I think this mon is not seeing the success it used to due to high usage of Mr Rime.
Cradily - Boy oh boy, where do I even begin? The 2024 Winter Seasonal Discord Tour MVP absolutely skyrocketed through the ranks on the last big VR update and it is not going back down. The menace of a wall rose due to its incredible bulk, Stealth Rock setting ability, and access to Leech Seed and Toxic. Very little of the prominent breakers in the tier handle this mon, such as Ninetales and Kangaskhan. Although it is not as volatile as it was a year ago, it would be a travesty to overlook it and drop it.
Galarian Stunfisk - I believe that if you take last tours stats and compare them to this tours, Stunfisk-Galarian would have the biggest rise in usage. I feel like I see this on every team I play and it is an absolute nightmare to get rid of.
Falinks - I have seen this mon sweep teams one too many times to not give it the respect it has earned. If played correctly, this thing is one of the best set-up mons in the tier. It also is great due to it scaring off Persian-Alolan, which is on a majority of teams.
Silvally-Fighting - The best Silvally Form here. Fighting Multi-Attack paired with BoltBeam and a solid speed stat make this a great pivot. It rises up due to it taking less Stealth Rock damage and it not being scared of Persian-Alolan.

 

[DoomBre1oom]

SS SU Open I Usage Stats!



('Gourgeist-*' refers to all Gourgeist forms combined. 'Silvally' is the combination of all Silvally forms.)

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Rapidash-Galar     |  107 |  38.21% |  49.53% |
| 2    | Electivire         |   86 |  30.71% |  46.51% |
| 3    | Clefairy           |   81 |  28.93% |  43.21% |
| 4    | Silvally           |   80 |  28.57% |  51.25% |
| 4    | Persian-Alola      |   80 |  28.57% |  45.00% |
| 6    | Stunfisk-Galar     |   73 |  26.07% |  52.05% |
| 7    | Kabutops           |   72 |  25.71% |  54.17% |
| 7    | Ninetales          |   72 |  25.71% |  51.39% |
| -    | Gourgeist-*        |   72 |  25.71% |  43.06% |
| 9    | Golbat             |   67 |  23.93% |  52.24% |
| 10   | Gourgeist-Super    |   65 |  23.21% |  43.08% |
| 11   | Kangaskhan         |   63 |  22.50% |  47.62% |
| 12   | Cramorant          |   62 |  22.14% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Mr. Rime           |   54 |  19.29% |  46.30% |
| 14   | Throh              |   52 |  18.57% |  67.31% |
| 15   | Pawniard           |   50 |  17.86% |  62.00% |
| 16   | Roselia            |   48 |  17.14% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Jynx               |   35 |  12.50% |  42.86% |
| 18   | Crustle            |   24 |   8.57% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Cradily            |   24 |   8.57% |  33.33% |
| 20   | Abomasnow          |   23 |   8.21% |  65.22% |
| 20   | Mawile             |   23 |   8.21% |  60.87% |
| 20   | Raichu             |   23 |   8.21% |  52.17% |
| 20   | Corsola-Galar      |   23 |   8.21% |  47.83% |
| 24   | Rotom-Fan          |   22 |   7.86% |  54.55% |
| 25   | Carracosta         |   21 |   7.50% |  71.43% |
| 26   | Metang             |   20 |   7.14% |  45.00% |
| 27   | Poliwrath          |   19 |   6.79% |  57.89% |
| 28   | Lurantis           |   17 |   6.07% |  58.82% |
| 28   | Marowak            |   17 |   6.07% |  52.94% |
| 30   | Bouffalant         |   16 |   5.71% |  37.50% |
| 30   | Falinks            |   16 |   5.71% |  18.75% |
| 32   | Hitmonchan         |   15 |   5.36% |  53.33% |
| 33   | Mareanie           |   14 |   5.00% |  35.71% |
| 34   | Lycanroc-Midnight  |   13 |   4.64% |  76.92% |
| 34   | Musharna           |   13 |   4.64% |  38.46% |
| 36   | Kadabra            |   12 |   4.29% |  75.00% |
| 36   | Vibrava            |   12 |   4.29% |  41.67% |
| 38   | Shiinotic          |   10 |   3.57% |  40.00% |
| 39   | Appletun           |    9 |   3.21% |  55.56% |
| 40   | Gabite             |    8 |   2.86% |  75.00% |
| 40   | Cursola            |    8 |   2.86% |  37.50% |
| 40   | Carbink            |    8 |   2.86% |  37.50% |
| 43   | Pyukumuku          |    7 |   2.50% |  57.14% |
| 43   | Duosion            |    7 |   2.50% |  42.86% |
| 45   | Avalugg            |    6 |   2.14% |  50.00% |
| 45   | Exeggutor          |    6 |   2.14% |  33.33% |
| 45   | Gourgeist-Small    |    6 |   2.14% |  33.33% |
| 48   | Lunatone           |    5 |   1.79% |  60.00% |
| 48   | Spiritomb          |    5 |   1.79% |  20.00% |
| 50   | Klang              |    4 |   1.43% |  75.00% |
| 50   | Boltund            |    4 |   1.43% |  50.00% |
| 50   | Thievul            |    4 |   1.43% |  50.00% |
| 50   | Butterfree         |    4 |   1.43% |  50.00% |
| 50   | Shedinja           |    4 |   1.43% |  50.00% |
| 50   | Type: Null         |    4 |   1.43% |  25.00% |
| 56   | Sandygast          |    3 |   1.07% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Ivysaur            |    3 |   1.07% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Slowpoke           |    3 |   1.07% |  66.67% |
| 56   | Fraxure            |    3 |   1.07% |  33.33% |
| 56   | Magmar             |    3 |   1.07% |  33.33% |
| 61   | Drifblim           |    2 |   0.71% | 100.00% |
| 61   | Shiftry            |    2 |   0.71% | 100.00% |
| 61   | Ditto              |    2 |   0.71% |  50.00% |
| 61   | Koffing            |    2 |   0.71% |  50.00% |
| 61   | Drakloak           |    2 |   0.71% |  50.00% |
| 61   | Pinsir             |    2 |   0.71% |  50.00% |
| 61   | Whiscash           |    2 |   0.71% |  50.00% |
| 61   | Heatmor            |    2 |   0.71% |  50.00% |
| 61   | Orbeetle           |    2 |   0.71% |  50.00% |
| 61   | Raboot             |    2 |   0.71% |   0.00% |
| 61   | Corsola            |    2 |   0.71% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Natu               |    1 |   0.36% | 100.00% |
| 72   | Flapple            |    1 |   0.36% | 100.00% |
| 72   | Machoke            |    1 |   0.36% | 100.00% |
| 72   | Solrock            |    1 |   0.36% | 100.00% |
| 72   | Dugtrio            |    1 |   0.36% | 100.00% |
| 72   | Beheeyem           |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Bronzor            |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Wigglytuff         |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Electabuzz         |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Honedge            |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Dedenne            |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Wartortle          |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Bellossom          |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Hattrem            |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Dunsparce          |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Luxray             |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Flareon            |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Ludicolo           |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Mr. Mime           |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |

 

[missangelic]

Heya! The SS SU council, joined by evakiyama!, has updated the VR after SS SU Open. It's been nearly a year since our last update, so there's quite a few changes to cover!

Rises

Spoiler

S- to S
-
A to A+
-XL A to A+
A to A+
A to A+
A- to A
A- to A
A- to A
A- to A
A- to A
-
B+ to A-
B+ to A
B to B+
B to B+
B- to B
B- to B
B- to B
B- to B
-
C+ to B-
C+ to B-
C+ to B-
C to C+
C to C+
C to C+
C to C+
UR to C+
UR to C

Drops

Spoiler

S to S-
S- to A
-
A+ to A
A to A-
-Small A to A-
A to A-
A to A-
A- to B+
A- to B+
A- to B+
-
B+ to B
B+ to B-
B+ to B
B+ to B-
B+ to B
B+ to B
B to C+
B to C+
B- to C+
B- to C+
B- to C+
-
C+ to C
C to UR
C to UR
C to UR
C to UR
C to UR
C to UR
C to UR
C to UR

Major Changes

Spoiler

B+ to A

SS SU is short on Ground- and Steel-types, and Galarian Stunfisk happens to fit both bills. Blanket checking major threats like Galarian Rapidash and Electric-types while offering Stealth Rock and other utility makes Gunfisk one of the best defensive glues in the tier.

S- to A

Clefairy is amazing at fending off Alolan Persian, the best Pokemon in the tier, but a lot of the hype it had has died down. The metagame feels pretty offensive at the moment, and Clefairy ends up getting overrun a bit too easily, putting it more on the level of something like Galarian Stunfisk. This isn't to say Clefairy is bad at all, just that it's had a harder time lately.

B+ to B-

Flapple is used pretty sparingly despite how powerful its Hustle-boosted attacks are on paper. In practice, the Hustle miss chance and Flapple's middling Speed make it hard to bring, so it's been increasingly overshadowed by up-and-coming wallbreakers like Exeggutor and Marowak.

B+ to B-

There's been several years of play for SS SU, and Mareanie has hit its lowest usage during that time. I'm a fan of it personally, but Mareanie tends to be really passive. Fighting-types trending might come around to bring it back up, but Spikes and offense teams being really good at the moment leads to Mareanie being hard to bring. SU has alternative support Poison-types like Roselia and Golbat. Clefairy tends to do Mareanie's job just a bit better, and it's struggling right now, which is a pretty good indicator for why we're dropping Mareanie.

B to C+

Orbeetle is a constant potentialmon with its deep movepool of options like Calm Mind and Sticky Web, but it hardly sees any relevant usage. It's a really fun option in friendlies if you enjoy cheese, but it just doesn't show up enough to be considered seriously part of the B ranks.

B to C+

Pincurchin's story is sadly similar to Orbeetle's: it's got a ton of potential between its role as a Spikes setter that threatens Cramorant and its Electric immunity, but it's hard to fit and doesn't show up often. Electric Seed being banned really cramps what Pincurchin can offer in the tier compared to Roselia.

Thanks for reading! If you have questions, feel free to reach out to me here or on Discord.

 

[Lillith Plays]

Small correction: Thievul comes before Type: Null alphabetically