Tournaments SSPL III Format Discussion

Slowpoke Fan

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Greetings everyone! We have slightly less than two months before SSPL starts again and I would like to release a format discussion thread for this tournament early so the community can discuss on any potential changes thoroughly. goldmason, Akeras and Lialiabeast will be our hosts this year - I would like to thank them for volunteering to host this tournament :sphearical:.

Without further ado, let us discuss the format of SSPL. SSPL was an 8-team, 10 slot tournament involving the following tiers:
SS Ubers
SS OU
SS OU
SS OU
SS UU
SS RU
SS NU
SS PU
SS LC
SS DOU

Please post your thoughts here if you want to suggest changes to the format!
 
So I would like to propose expanding the tournament to 12 slots by adding either 2 OU slots or 1 OU and ZU slot respectively. I think SS is in this weird spot of not having enough tournaments taken seriously by tournament players that are accessible to newer players who are just starting to get results - we lack a tournament like RoAPL for newer players to essentially audition for top team tournaments SPL by playing against established names, so SSPL has borne a fair amount of that responsibility in the past couple of years, with players like damien the genius bursting onto the SPL scene after a successful SSPL run in the year prior to their SPL debut. This has made the tournament pretty difficult to enter if you're an aspiring newbie who's just starting to perform in circuit or other miscellaneous tournaments, as SSPL has now become a tournament where circuit regulars/standouts join in hopes of getting to play against greats like Ox the Fox so they could potentially build their CVs.

Extra OU slot(s) would ease the pressure on teams to go for the very best players to play the OU slots and allow them to take flyers on newer players looking to break into the tier's tournament scene. But I do understand concerns about 5 OU slots being too much of a burden for managers to handle, so adding ZU to the tournament feels interesting to me - there's an active community that runs and maintains the tier akin to an official one, and tournaments are regularly held to ensure that its tiers are never too stagnant. Would obviously understand pushback against adding an unofficial tier to SSPL, but I think adding an OU slot or two should be done as we have the playerbase and enthusiasm to support it :sphearical:.
 
I agree with what you propose, a +OU slot would be decent, anyway last year some good SS players were on the bench or went undraft, in my team for example I had Hervalt and his French friend who played ss in spl (mb I forgot the name) on the bench so I don't see it as a bad option, but instead of ZU I would prefer to add SS Monotype which is an official tier and it seems to me that it has a wider player base than ZU.
 
I think slowpokes post is perfect. adding an OU slot never hurts any only gives more people the chance to enjoy the tier and i really enjoy ZU getting more time to shine in other tours. Monotype has MWP that just ended and MPL going on right now and the ZU community deserves more representation. Looking forward to this years SSPL
 
In my opinion having 3 times the same tier for a tournament that represents a whole generation is enough, i would love to see ZU & Monotype both be added to the tournament, i can't speak for Monotype, but SS ZU is one of its more popular generation by far so it makes sense adding it.
Although i'm not completely against having 4 OUs in the tournament if people want one more OU slot, i would just prefer to see more diversity in adding both ZU & Monotype. Adding 2 OU slots looks boring, please don't do that.

Personal opinion: ZU + Monotype >>> ZU + OU > Monotype + OU >>> OU + OU

I know my voice doesn't count as much as others because i have never played this tournament, i'm not known to be a SS player of any sort, but maybe some people will share my opinion on preferring to see more tiers being represented than adding the tier with the most slots already, from both a player and spectator view.
 
SS ZU is arguably ZU's most optimized old gen, having seen tons of activity while being a current gen and still retaining a fair amount of popularity with the shift to SV becoming current gen. SS ZU features well defined cores of both defensive and offensive threats, but at the same time continues to have plenty of room for innovation; diegoyuhhi's SS Cup run last year with the likes of untiered mons like Koffing and Gastly is a testament to that, as is the usage of mons like Orbeetle and Golduck in the most recent iteration of ZUPL. In my opinion there are only a few standout generations of ZU, and SS ZU sits at the pinnacle of the them for me. Popularity shouldn't be an issue by any stretch of the imagination, with SS ZU frequently being one of the tiers seeing greater popularity compared to most other tiers in ZU team tours. I'd love to see it featured, and from what it seems from responses in this thread I'm not alone in that sentiment.
 
Expanding the slots is fine, but I don't think it is necessary.

That said, I'm not opposed to an additional OU slot. It was also my experience that a higher than acceptable amount of SS OU talent just doesn't play due to the high playerbase (we had Spooky on the bench last year). I think 2 slots is probably too many, though. One should be fine.

Now the question after that is which tier to add to bring us back to an even number. Monotype has the playerbase, but I think ZU could also be the selection. I do think it thematically fits the tour better. I don't even like that tier, I think that meta is pretty trash, but it makes more sense. I'm not totally sold on it, though, as I think SS Monotype is one of Monotype's better iterations and it has a very high playerbase.

I'd also be in favor of hearing arguments for Draft and AG, I could definitely be convinced that one of them has a claim to the extra spot.

add OU + some tier > keep as is > add 2 OU
 
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I think slowpokes post is perfect. adding an OU slot never hurts any only gives more people the chance to enjoy the tier and i really enjoy ZU getting more time to shine in other tours. Monotype has MWP that just ended and MPL going on right now and the ZU community deserves more representation. Looking forward to this years SSPL
By the same logic, zu now has ended zu triathlon and now has zuwcop ongoing, i'd rather play an official tier as it is monotype.
Add monotype+ ou so that new upcoming or players that main other gen get a chance to play ss ou( some examples of benched players last year are spookyz hiko and rufflespro) if this well stablished players were benched whole tour, [spookyz even played ss at spl] new upcoming players would never play realistically
 
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Wanted to express support for ZU should the decision to expand be made and it is considered. SS ZU is a wonderful tier with a lot of motivated players and a strong community behind it. It would fit well in SSPL, fitting in well with other usage-based tiers and providing a slot that I have seen personally to be incredibly competitive and have a deep player pool.
 
id argue monotype > another ou. monotype is the only official tier to not see as much representation site-wide compared to other official tiers. its currently in oraspl and was recently added to smpl. in my own opinion ss monotype is the most balanced monotype generation there is and there shouldnt be any concern from uninformed users who think its a matchup tier. ssou is in wcop, spl, and theres already 3 ou slots here. if you guys are gonna expand to 12, add zu and monotype for more site-wide inclusion. as someone who loves ss / had a good run in this tour last year / managed this tour to playoffs previously, i think that would be a great next step for this tournament! both pools for zu and mono would be strong and theres definitely no doubt about that. so theres nothing really stopping the show from rolling on besides people who will continue to gatekeep other communities for no reason. mono mainers are also all self sufficient (or well....they should be) and can just invite a buddy if they really need to help, if people are also worrying about having to learn the tier to help prep it or whatever.
 
I won't speak for all of them but I know that those who were on my team were eager to be started in this tournament last year, the SS OU pool was quite stacked with players that we are not used to seeing in SS OU which caused names like IPF, spooky z, hervalt, ayk, joya, etc remained on the bench for much of the edition, in some cases the entire edition, are some of the examples for which I would not agree with the idea of the 4th OU slot being put aside. I firmly believe that SS OU is a tier that is growing despite being an old gen, with new guys like im tofa, or lolebruh, kustavan, who have emerged in these last two years of sspl and have done quite well in the tier.
adding the 4th OU slot we would not only maintain the quality of the tournament by starting players like the ones I mentioned above, but we would also be encouraging new talents from the tier that I'm sure there are, with the celebration of the last SSLT, new talents of the tier came to light and I don't see why not give a place to each of them here, after dedicating some time to the tier and having done well.

if the tier is already in SPL or WCOP, it shouldnt matter. nobody tries out new talents in officials like you would in a teamtour like the SSPL.

I will maintain my opinion of monotype +OU > ZU + OU > other options. For the sake of maintaining the quality of the tournament and encouraging new SS OU talents.
 
This is gonna be a long one, I apologize for any incoherence as it's late at night and I decided to let my fingers fly on a very important subject to me.

I did TL;DR at the end just in case you're not interested in a ramble

I came across SSPL II a few months ago and binge watched literally all of it. While I know this generation of Pokemon has its detractors(whether it be dexit gen, no generational mechanic available in singles, it being "too slow," etc.), I think it's awesome that the community has managed to put on two successful PLs for it after it was no longer CG. It's the only gen I find interesting from top to bottom tiering wise(bit of a spoiler for what I'm going to type next) and gave me a newfound appreciation for more methodically paced games. And that leads me into my personal tl;dr hope: SS ZU's definitive inclusion into SSPL, and either another OU or monotype pick for the 12th slot, with a SLIGHT preference toward OU getting it.

Some might argue that an unofficial tier making it into a gen's PL is not a good idea. That said, would this not be the best possible stage to celebrate the player base of SS ZU for keeping their tier alive and thriving, and put more of a spotlight on it for other players and spectators to potentially get interested in it and pick it up?

I get that OU is and will always be the "main stage" of competitive Smogon; no matter which gen, their OU ladder will stay alive long after the gen concludes. SS OU tours still exist today and it's not hard to request matches in the format, whether it be on discord, in Ruins of Alph, or queuing up the ladder(though I understand why some people may not enjoy that last one). However, the nuance of what Slowpoke Fan wrote isn't lost on me; if SSPL has really become a feeder system for newer players to show their stuff, then I completely understand the importance of allowing some "breathing room" for managers to give newer SS OU players a chance in an additional slot. It may be easier to get basic matches in SS OU if you have a budding interest in the tier, but the opportunity does not come too drastically often for newer players to play the tier with eyes on them and support from other established vets of the tier. I would hate for managers to feel pressured to grab ONLY proven names instead of someone who could use this tour to break out and flourish as an SS OU player. I feel like I'm talking myself more and more into supporting the OU slot, but proven managers and teammates can do a lot to help accelerate the growth of a player who needs access to teams or game feedback/review, and another slot for OU gives a team more heads to put together and discuss what went right and what went wrong.

Moving on, it's generally harder to get matches for an LT if it isn't already super popular, such as outliers like DPP Ubers. I should know, I mained ADV Ubers for like a year(one of the lesser touched formats) and got really lucky falling into a great friend circle that would help teach me and play it consistently, but that circle was maybe 7-8 people strong and nearly represented the entire playerbase that mained the tier. This is also not discounting the fact that even when these LTs get their RoA spotlight ladder once a year(if that) that these ladders are not guaranteed to be active. I once was able to make myself a full dinner before my queue for getting a GSC UU ladder match was answered.

I also advocated for GSC PU to be included in GSCPL last year for a very similar reason, and the team I helped support saw a lot of intermingling between tiers after just two or three weeks. It would be awesome if someone who only came to this tour to play SS UU or Monotype took an inspired interest in supporting or learning another tier like PU or ZU. Maybe I'm idealistic, but I know the number of people this has happened for in tours is not zero, and that's enough for me to suggest it.

The second argument I can see against these tiers' inclusions is a simple dislike of having bigger teams and more slots added to the tour. I don't have as logical an argument against this as much as I'll say that I think with SS being such an underdog generation, we should be looking for any chance we can take to elevate it and its playerbase a la Slowpoke's post.

If the community agrees that a fourth OU slot would make the most sense and the decision simply MUST come down to ZU vs. monotype, my belief is that ZU is more in line with a traditional 6v6 Smogon singles tour would represent, BUT if the demand for monotype eclipses the flourishing ZU community, then I'd understand monotype getting the nod. However, it's still pretty clear that SS ZU is one of the more popular ZUs and I believe that deserves recognition in its own right, especially because Monotype has its own community in which SS monotype can be played in other tours.

It may sound weird for a relative nobody to write so passionately about a tour he's never played in. However, I really cannot express enough how far SSPL II went in changing my opinion of a generation I was not around for and how much I really enjoyed watching every single game to see what the playerbases had prepped for that week. Even the janky ones. I love how there's such a vast variety of mons that can work well up and down the tiers as long as you know what you're doing and how to position yourself well, and I hope to see this tournament thrive whether as a spectator or a competitor.

I might edit this when I log on again for coherency but if you need the TL;DR:

- expanding the tour is a decision that harms nobody and only stands to benefit the SS community at large
- My personal compromise for variety + competitive development is adding ZU and another OU to the tour, I think this is best but I am biased
- If tour hosts care more about variety, add ZU + monotype
- If tour hosts care more about creating a launchpad for more SS OU development, add two more OU slots(my least preferred option when we could reward ZU for working so hard)

Thanks for reading and my thanks to the SS community for working hard to keep this generation of pokemon alive
 
I firmly believe that SS OU is a tier that is growing despite being an old gen, with new guys like im tofa, or lolebruh, kustavan, who have emerged in these last two years of sspl and have done quite well in the tier.
Fun fact: tofa only played one game last SSPL despite having a semifinals finish in the 2023 circuit playoffs and finishing with the best SS OU record in OUPL a few months later. OLK is absolutely right that three OU slots isn't enough for the SS OU community at this point since RoA has not given us an alternative to RoAPL - telling SPL managers who have likely not touched the tier since 2022 that you have done well in random side PLs does not hold the same weight as performing in team tournaments sanctioned by RoA. While I will do my best to attempt rectifying this imbalance at the end of the year, preparations will have to be made in case RoA is unable to satisfy the community's needs - outside of RoA receiving a fourth CA prize (which is unlikely), any proposals coming from us regarding RoAPL will unsettle established oldgens and are going to receive significant pushback.
 
i think adding either monotype or zu would be pretty good, and i echo the desire for another ou slot. ideally we could get all 3 in but i don't know how much that is feasible. i have no real horse in the race wrt to monotype or zu; i think i would probably favour zu but that decision should be left to people much smarter and much more qualified to decide between the two
 
Hi ZU leader here,

SS ZU has been one of the most popular ZU old gens (arguably the most popular alongside BW) and the generation where the ZU tournament scene truelly started developping. There is without a doubt a huge playerbase for SS ZU in SSPL and it will field a very competitive pool, just like it does in every ZU team tournament.

I would love to see Monotype too, as it's a tier like ZU that struggles to get inclusion in most team tournaments, while still having a solid playerbase. I understand that people can be frustrated when they are a SS OU starter elsewhere but a sub in SSPL, but you have to realize there has been so many SS OU team tournaments, that a lot of people have been able to start there and you'll always have people on the bench that have great results elsewhere. These people also usually can play at a decent level in lower tiers, and expanding with ZU and Monotype will allow for some of the benched players to start in SS OU, as some other starters will be moved elsewhere. I understand that the benched players in SS OU are very qualified players, but so are the ZU and Monotype players who are completely left out the tournament.

Thank you for reading, please add ZU.
 
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