STAB Updates

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Texas Cloverleaf

Texas Cloverleaf

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RE: this thread

With the preparations to move to Gen 6 now is the perfect time to update our STAB descriptions. Itt I want people to propose, discuss, and support possible alterations to our STAB moves.


To start off, Gerard proposed some new changes in the old thread that serve as a good starting point:
  • Flying STAB; Immunity to Ground attacks except under the effects of Smack Down and Gravity. Will always hit foes with Dig (except other Flying types) and Dive. Cannot be hit by Dive unless the attacking Pokemon has a size class greater than four (4). Immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Able to hit Pokemon in the evasive stage of Bounce, Fly or Sky Drop with single target moves that hit Pokemon on the field regardless of position.
  • Grass STAB; immunity to Leech Seed and Worry Seed. 50% reduction in status effect chance of oncoming "powder" attacks including Spore. Able to use Wrap and Bind without losing focus. Recovers three (3) extra energy when using chill if sunlight is active. Able to use any attack which requires an external source of Grass to use without problem.
  • Normal STAB; Adapt comfortably to any surrounding after 3 actions, gaining two base power on moves whose type corresponds to that of the arena (ex. a Dark type arena gives a boost to Dark moves like bite), if an arena is designed for more than one type then the dominant type will get the boost. Able to use Outrage without losing focus.

 
I'm looking at some of the current STAB descriptions and seeing if we can codify the things that already exist. For example:
Fighting STAB; ignore weight restrictions on Circle Throw, Seismic Toss, Sky Drop, Storm Throw, Submission, and Vital Throw. Superior reaction time in close quarters.
Click to expand...
In that last sentence, "superior reaction time" suggests something to do with the speed stat or priority, and "in close quarters" suggests use of a contact move.
 
Just a note, confirmed by the official site are more updates: http://www.pokemonxy.com/_ui/img/_en/art/Type-Matchup_chart_EN.pdf

Specifically:
Grass is no longer effected by "Powder" Attacks (Spore, Stun Spore, Sleep Powder, Poisonpowder), which is in addition to Leech Seed immunity.
Electric types cannot be paralyzed (Sorry Cherie Berry Limber Stunfisk).
Ghost Pokemon are not effected by full trapping moves (status of partial trapping moves unknown).

All the other STAB descriptions are not noticeably changed.
 
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Objection said:
In that last sentence, "superior reaction time" suggests something to do with the speed stat or priority, and "in close quarters" suggests use of a contact move.
Click to expand...
Perhaps fighting types could get a slight accuracy boost (like 5 or something) when using contact moves?
 
The Wanderer said:
Perhaps fighting types could get a slight accuracy boost (like 5 or something) when using contact moves?
Click to expand...
I'm against a boost like this as what ir helps (HJK) doesn't need a boost (consider with just a 5 Acc increase you reduce the amount of mises by half on any regular mon without a +Spe nature), and that fighting a isn't like rock and most of it's moves are pretty Acc except the ones that aren't supposed to be
 
How about this for Rock STAB to slightly patch up Rock-type moves' accuracy issues:

"100% accurate with moves that require an external rock source." Or maybe make it perfect accuracy?
 
Objection said:
How about this for Rock STAB to slightly patch up Rock-type moves' accuracy issues:

"100% accurate with moves that require an external rock source if said source is available" Or maybe make it perfect accuracy?
Click to expand...

Add that and I think it would be a nice change since the best move in need of rocks is rock slide which isn't the most powerful move when you consider the speed of most rock types but it would be pretty good to use them reliably, and Stone Edge and Head Smash remain untouched so it's all good
 
Oh yeah. I thought it was implicit that the increased accuracy didn't enable the use of the moves in the first place, but it can't hurt to add that in.
 
How about since they have an increased reaction time, fighting types get to choose whether they go first or second against a foe who speed ties with them when using a contact move?
 
So yes, I'm going to intervene here. Even though I removed the God Veto from buff culture, this is starting to get in the weeds. Since we're updating this for Gen VI, there's a few things we have to consider:

1. Fairy is a game-changer for balance in general.
2. Bug, Dragon, and Fighting are weakened offensively and Dark, Dragon, Fighting, and Steel are weakened defensively.
3. Ghost is much stronger offensively and Dark is roughly the same offensively (Subtract Steel, Add Fairy).

I also think we can dispense with the full write-ups and just give summaries instead.

With that in mind, alterations or additions in underline.:


Bug: Bug STAB; Adds an additional guaranteed attack on all multi-hit moves (including two hit moves) with a total hit cap of five (5).
Dark: Dark STAB; ignores Attract and Confusion status entirely when using Dark-type attacks.
Dragon: Dragon STAB; -1 BAP on incoming neutral attacks Dragon itself would resist (e.g. -1 BAP on Aqua Jet against Garchomp.) Unable to have Thrash or Outrage disrupted by oncoming damage.
Electric: Electric STAB; immune to paralysis status.
Fairy: Fairy STAB: Other effect TBD.
Fighting: Fighting STAB; ignore weight restrictions on Circle Throw, Seismic Toss, Sky Drop, Storm Throw, Submission, and Vital Throw.
Fire: Fire STAB; immune to burn status.
Flying: Flying STAB; immunity to Ground attacks except under the effects of Smack Down and Gravity, even for ground-based flying Pokemon. Will always hit foes with Dig (except other Flying types) and Dive. Cannot be hit by Dive unless the attacking Pokemon has a size class greater than four (4). Unaffected by Spikes or Toxic Spikes. when switching in. Able to hit Pokemon in the evasive stage of Bounce, Fly or Sky Drop with single target moves that hit Pokemon on the field regardless of position.
Ghost: Ghost STAB; immune to the effects of full trapping moves.
Grass: Grass STAB; immunity to Leech Seed, Worry Seed, and all "Powder" based attacks (Fairy Dust, Poisonpowder, Rage Powder, Sleep Powder, Spore, Stun Spore). Unable to have Petal Dance disrupted by oncoming damage. Ignores Arena restrictions on Grass attacks requiring an external grass source.
Ground: Ground STAB; Ignores Arena restrictions on Dig and Seismic Attacks for Arenas in which any land mass exists, Evasive Digging reduced from 6 per action Energy Cost to 5 per action.
Ice: Ice STAB; immune to freeze status and Sheer Cold.
Normal: Normal STAB; +1 BAP on attacks that match dominant arena type after 3 actions. Unable to have Thrash or Outrage disrupted by oncoming damage.
Poison: Poison STAB; immunity to Poison/Toxic status. Absorb Toxic Spikes on switch-in unless Flying-typed or using the ability Levitate. Ignore Fog's accuracy reduction.
Psychic: Psychic STAB; can lift and throw opponents with Psychic regardless of Special Attack Rank. Psychic-type attacks are not godlike and cannot be used as a catchall for Disabling, Binding, and redirecting opposing attacks.
Rock: Rock STAB; reduced damage from all special attacks by two (2) Base Attack Power during Sandstorm. Ignores Arena restrictions on Rock attacks requiring an external rock source.
Steel: Steel STAB; immune to Poison/Toxic status, but can be corroded specifically by Acid and Acid Spray, making them susceptible to Poison-type attacks.
Water: Water STAB; Ignores arena restrictions on Water attacks that require an external water source. Evasive Diving reduced from 6 per action Energy Cost to 5 per action.

So other than really needing to see what the whole cohort of Fairy types look / act like, most of these descriptions get rid of superfluous language and complement their type well. Since a huge portion of Dragon has sub-typings that nullify a resistance, the Dragon STAB update makes a lot of sense. Dragons really won't be the uber type in Gen VI.

A lot of the updates are based around ignoring arena restrictions, which is healthy insasmuch as it balances out a lot of the more powerful arena effects. I also removed everything regarding "losing focus" since that was always poorly described. Since oncoming damage is a factor in Thrash, Outrage, and Petal Dance disruption, I have made those more specific.

Other tweaks including adding an additional hit to all multi-hit moves to Bug types, so Twineedle will hit three times (as will Scizor's Double Hit!), and a few more conditions for consistency (like Grass types and Petal Dance)
 
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I can't pretend I'm not speaking from bias here, just a little, but hasn't Dark STAB always felt a little... underwhelming? I've been using Dark-types literally my entire ASB career--very frequently, at that--and never once have I seen benefit. Attract negation just isn't a real buff.

This may be controversial, but would replacing the STAB entirely with something like a seventh action of Taunt duration be a bit more in line with what the type does? It has minor, but very noticeable impact that will be felt almost every game, much like Bug, Electric, or Water!

If Taunt is considered too strong, moves like Embargo and Torment can fill that gap just the same--they're very powerful, but no where near as game-changing as Taunt itself.
 
All of Deck's alterations look quite good to me and I'm appreciative of him stepping in here because I think STAB descriptions have always been an area that is tough to get effects that adhere to the initial vision, and retain balance. That said I don't think it would be awry if Electric, Ghost, Ice and Dark potentially got another added effect, Ice being the weakest STAB out there being an entirely passive effect and one that has little competitive use. The others retain some general usage but Ice in particular seems like it needs some help.
 
LouisCyphre said:
I can't pretend I'm not speaking from bias here, just a little, but hasn't Dark STAB always felt a little... underwhelming? I've been using Dark-types literally my entire ASB career--very frequently, at that--and never once have I seen benefit. Attract negation just isn't a real buff.
Click to expand...

I think this speaks more to Attract's uselessness than anything, but that would be another thread for another day.

Anyway, I'm not sure about the "ignore restrictions on external sources" for Rock and Water, mainly from a "making sense" perspective. How exactly does a Water-type generate the source needed for Surf or Dive, or a Rock-type for Rock Slide? If we're going to do something to do with those moves, I'd rather see moves that require a water source be buffed somehow when a Water-type uses them and moves that require a rock source be buffed somehow when a Rock-type uses them. Failing that, maybe Rock-types and Water-types gain commands to create external sources (and perhaps Grass-types could get this in addition to their not needing an external grass source - y'know, just in case they have allies that want to use Grass Knot).
 
I figured they just made their own source when using the move. To use an example, Milotic might make its own water as part of a command to Surf...
 
One of my thoughts on STAB Bonuses was access to STAB Commands for some of the "weaker" STABs. Electric is fine. Only one weakness, will have full paralysis immunity, and electric already has things like Charge to up their electrical attack power, and Thunder Wave for higher paralysis chances. I don't really see how a command could fill a better niche than those two.

Potential buffs:

Dark:
Hone Command: For the next (3) actions, this Pokemon's contact attacks will have their BAP increased by 3.

Fire:
Brighten Command: For the next (3) actions, all this Pokemon's attacks with have their accuracy increased by one stage.

Ghost:
Phase Command: For the next (3) actions, physical non-contact attacks directed at this Pokemon will have their BAP reduced by 3.

Ice:
Frost Command: For the next (6) actions, this Pokemon's Ice moves will have triple the freeze chance.

Poison:
Store Command: For the next (6) actions, this Pokemon's moves will have their poison / toxic effect chance double.

Thoughts? You might complain Electric could do the same thing as fire, but Electric already has Flash for a move that does the opposite and Fire is a pretty steady light and heat source, where electricity is really "on" or "off."
 
If you want another bonus thing for Electric STAB, how about "always inflicts 25% paralysis with Electric-type moves that inflict paralysis" or "inflicts 5% higher paralysis (up to 25%) with Electric-type moves that inflict paralysis"?
 
Psychic's STAB is... Really underwelming to say the least, If Dragon can get a REAL boost then so should Psychic, Ghost being buffed is a defensive Nerf for Psychic if I may add
 
Just pointing out that Ghost was given trapping immunity by Generation VI; you're not being unfairly targeted or anything.

edit: texas has a point lol
 
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"look at me im the undefeated leader who bitches in every policy discussion about how my type needs more buffs"

TRY WORKING WITH FUCKING GRASS TYPE, I'M RESISTED BY LITERALLY HALF THE GAME AND WEAK TO A THIRD OF IT

most op type might be electric tho
 
Let me ask you this, Gerard. How would you buff the Psychic stab while not making it so that Psychic-Types are more overpowered than they already are?
 
Guys, enough of the butthurt crap over types & shit. The next time this sort of shit happens, watch out. That said, most of the types descripts look fine to me. I am a bit leery at some of the commands, but other than that, yeah. Also, the amount of buffs Beedrill gets from all this... Blimey... >_<
 
I'm slightly confused by the wording on the Ground-type bonus; what exactly does "land mass" constitute? Is its definition restricted to natural surfaces (e.g. dirt) or is concrete / solid titanium also a "land mass"?

Personally, the Dragon STAB bonus seems a bit out of place; most everything else is based on immunities to status or status effects that make complete sense and/or are already part of standard battle mechanics. I'm not being very articulate right now, but it seems that every other STAB effect is a direct trait of the typing, while I don't see how the convoluted damage reduction is a trait of any Dragon. Moreover, even if it were a trait of any Dragon, it seems like it would be way too broad: why wouldn't the same logic hold for any other typing?

Also agreeing that Ice STAB could probably be given something else, but there's basically nothing that has to do with Ice...
 
I feel like a broken record here and it's basically the reason I stopped commenting on policy threads entirely, but am I the only one really opposed to the "LETS BUFF EVERYTHING" culture? I thought we had moved away from it a touch but I feel this is all way too much. Limiting access to water/rocks/seismic activity is an integral part of some arenas (read: gyms) and being able to totally bypass this simply with STAB is kind of silly. I understand that Gen VI is bringing in some new STAB traits and that's fine but do we really need to be arbitrarily adding in our own? Not to mention it is impossible to balance each type's made up boosts.
 
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