Done Stats Final Submission Format

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Quanyails

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Since we've standardized movepool final submission formats here, stats is now the only submission stage without a standardized submission format. Let's create one! This would help with ensuring people don't need to dig around a post to find the information they're looking for, as well as motivate people to justify their spreads properly.

Template:
Final Submission

[HP]/[Atk]/[Def]/[SpA]/[SpD]/[Spe] (BST: [BST])

PT: [PT]
ST: [ST]
PS: [PS]
SS: [SS]
BSR: [BSR]

Offensive benchmarks - targets
  • [list of damage calculator benchmarks]
[Any additional comments about these benchmarks.]

Offensive benchmarks - checks and counters
  • [list of damage calculator benchmarks]
[Any additional comments about these benchmarks.]

Defensive benchmarks - targets
  • [list of damage calculator benchmarks]
[Any additional comments about these benchmarks.]

Defensive benchmarks - checks and counters
  • [list of damage calculator benchmarks]
[Any additional comments about these benchmarks.]

[any additional comments about the spread]
Feedback on this template is appreciated. I'm in no rush to make a change for CAP 28, but it would be conducive to the thread if we can make it happen!
 

Bughouse

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As a previous stats leader years ago, yes I strongly support a more standardized format being encouraged. It would have made reviewing and selecting a slate much easier.

That said - I don't know that I would want to disqualify anyone not using the format. Technically speaking the only thing being submitted is the actual base stat line, and then the BSR is an obvious thing to require as well, since it is the check that things comply with stats limits.

The rest is more something I'd like to see recommended but not required. I think there would be valid reasons for someone using another structure, such as to highlight particular moves or coverage that are controversial, etc.

Also, personally I would prefer to have all offensive calcs (whether it's a target, check or counter, or something not listed in those categories) in order, and then the defensive calcs.
 

jas61292

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I largely agree with what Bughouse said in that, while I agree that a standard format might make things easier to look through, I don't really support a required format, at least for the reasoning. I would absolutely support a standard format for the stat spread itself, as well as stat ratings, if only to make it easier to glance through them all, but all the reasoning itself is a different story.

There are a few main reasons I would not support a required format for the reasoning a and justification.

First off, the way people order and format their reasoning often varies by what they consider important. While this might simply mean that some people put offenses first while others put defenses, it also means that people talk about certain things in entirely different sections. Some people might address speed in the same section as offenses because it has a great effect on what they can beat. On a different mon, people might be putting it with defenses because it has a bigger impact on their ability to survive hits. And, of course, some people just prefer to talk about it in a separate section.

Secondly, stats are a competitive stage, and unlike flavor steps, that means we have a Topic Leader and Stats Leader to oversee and provide quality control. A format that must be followed, is not of the same kind of value as in flavor steps because we are not trying to innately narrow down the qualifying entries. We want the best entries, not simply the best that follow a specific format. So, while a recommended layout is fine, I would be strongly against disqualifying anyone from straying from it.

Finally, as Bughouse said, technically, the only thing being submitted is the stat spread itself. While all the reasoning and justification are good to have, none of it is what is ultimately being voted on. If, to give a silly random example, you chose a specific Attack stat on a Pokemon because you didn't want its STAB Iron Head to 2HKO an Amoongus, that is great. But just because that was your reason does not mean that, if it is the chosen spread, the community can't give it Meteor Mash or an Ice type coverage move or whatever.

To make a comparison to the concepts stage, concepts submissions have 5 parts: Name, Description, Justification, Questions, and Explanation. But, as is explicitly listed in the submissions rules, "the Explanation is NOT part of the Concept and will be omitted from the polls and any future use of the Concept." In the stats stage, the actual stat spread is the equivalent of the actual concept, and any reasoning for it is the equivalent of the Explanation. And to again quote the concept submission rules: "Since your explanation is non-binding, regarding future polls and threads, it will not be evaluated for purposes of determining if your concept is legal or illegal." And, while we have rules on concept formatting that make it so the explanation always comes last, we have no rules on the formatting of the explanation itself. I think stats submissions should follow a similar rule.


So yeah, in summary, I really would not have an issue having a standard format for presenting the stats and rating themselves, but I am not a fan of disqualifying competitive submissions for minor formatting reasons. I also believe that reasoning for a submission is separate from the submission itself, like a concept's explanation, and thus should be presented however the submitter believes is best to get their ideas across.
 

Quanyails

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We could leave whether a submission should be disqualified from deviating from the template up to the TLT here, as they are still in charge of picking submissions for the slate.

All valid stat submissions naturally include benchmarks, and writing them out helps submitters with writing and the TLT with reviewing, so I don't want to discount the idea completely. Perhaps we could downgrade them to suggestions? Something like this:

Justification

[You should give reasoning for your spread here. Some sections that may be helpful to have in your write-up include:]
  • Offensive benchmarks against targets
  • Offensive benchmarks against checks and counters
  • Defensive benchmarks against targets
  • Defensive benchmarks against checks and counters
  • Example EV spreads + benchmarks
 

MrDollSteak

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As the current Stats leader, I can certainly say that a standardised format would certainly make things easier, and would be great to enforce. I want to echo Bughouses' and Jas' comments about the justification not being a complete necessity, in the sense that at the very least, it is not being voted on. Nevertheless, I do still think it can still be helpful to provide a format to use, for those that want to provide explanations as a means of increasing their likelihood of being slated. I completely approve of the first half of the template in regards to the actual submitted information, but am a bit sceptical about the current formatting for justification template.

In terms of how I think this can be fixed, rather than separating checks, counters and targets, I think it would be better to have two broader categories of 'Offensive Benchmarks' and 'Defensive benchmarks'. I would also personally prefer that a text explanation for the benchmarks be provided before the calculations, so as to contextualise these calculations and why they have been included and considered valuable. I also think grouping by spoilers is incredibly helpful and worth recommending.

With this in mind, I have provided below what I consider a more effective template for the Justification. I can see this being provided as a suggestion in the OP underneath the 'required formatting for Final Submission'.

Justification

[General comments about the spread and what it aims to achieve]

[Explanation about the chosen stat benchmarks and individual stat choices.]
Calculations to support the provided explanation

[Explanation about the chosen stat benchmarks and individual stat choices.]
Calculations to support the provided explanation
 

Bughouse

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Oh sure requiring SOME sort of justification including calcs is 100% fine by me.

I think most everyone does that already, but enshrining that as a rule is fine.

I just don’t want it to be forced into one format if someone thinks they can organize their justification better in another way.
 

jas61292

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Posting this on behalf of Deck Knight:

--------

I have submitted a stat spread in nearly every CAP project since the beginning, and been succcessfully selected by the voters multiple times, long distant in the project's history and more recently. I think any official standard has to end after the statline and BSR limits, and then allow further categories to be arranged as the submitter desires.

Stat Submissions have changed many times over the years. In earlier submissions, it was very common to have a huge wall of calculations from the Honchkalculator, and more recently it has been pared back to only a smaller subset of relevant calculations. There are huge elements of a successful submission that involve persuasion and emphasis, and a more open submission format allows the submitter to focus on the strengths of their spread.

Let me give a few examples of why this flexibility is needed:

1. Speed Tier is fundamental.

Speed Tier is probably the number one factor that impacts every submission. When I submitted my Krilowatt spread, one of my arguments was that Speed also functions effectively as a defense by causing Krilowatt to take fewer hits overall. Offensive Benchmarks and Defensive Benchmarks require this factor for their context.

A faster spread will inherently have lower damage output because of the way Sweepiness works, however the submitter is banking on getting in a second hit after a threat in a checks or counters section switches in. A slower spread might also have fewer offensive benchmarks because it invested in emphasizing Tankiness, and even though it has lower damage output its defensive calculations are considered more important.

2. Spreads are often created with a specific benchmark in mind, not with emphasis on every target/check/counter equally.

Remember that at the stage Stat Submissions take place, our list of threats, checks, and counters is not set in stone. In fact, the thrust of many submissions is to argue for why a certain check or counter should not be a check or counter, based on achieving the goal of a concept. A standardized format beyond the Statline/BSR puts submissions on an unequal footing because it requires them to address all hypotheticals on our constructed initial threatlist equally instead of conveying the information they find most important. People do read Stat Submissions in full before voting. Whenever I make a submission, I create an overview that points to the key elements of the spread, and then put each of them in hide tags. having already prepped the reader for the sections that will be most important.

3. Unnecessary padding should be avoided.

Forcing every submitter to specifically address every identified target, check, and counter is going to wash out interest by making every submission so similar that people who are listed first get a slight advantage. I don't think the original post insinuated this was a requirement, but I write it here as a concern because technically every spread can get a good calculation on common offensive or defensive staples if they include a specific coverage move. Many submissions operate from a baseline of a very specific suite of moves, and simply do not want to muddle their calculations with hypotheticals that could muddle it. Say a hypothetical spread wants to avoid a 2HKO on Ferrothorn with Focus Blast because the submitter wants it to remain a counter. They shouldn't feel obligated to include a Flamethrower calculation that would get a 2HKO if Flamethrower isn't within their vision of coverage.

4. Stats include investment, not just base stats.

I have won some submissions, I think, based on the fact in nearly all of them I include a functioning hypothetical set with calculations specific to that set. While many submissions are relatively cut-and-dried 252/252/4 investment situations, some submissions try to strike a realistic balance in their stats, and a more rote format of "this is where your offensive benchmarks go" can impede the ability to do that. I don't think it is wise to set down rules that would limit creativity and a more realistic view of how base stats and investment work together.

All that being said, I think in order to assist new submitters in making good submissions, a guideline for the kinds of information to include (an overview, speed tier, and then the listed benchmark categories in the original post's proposal) would be helpful. Defensive Spreads, Fast Spreads, and Offensive Spreads each want to highlight their strength first. This is a fundamental element of the persuasion inherent in stat spread submissions. There should be enough flexibility to allow each spread to make it's best case first, then the reader/voter can evaluate the constraints after being primed with the most positive elements.
 

Quanyails

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Closing this PR thread! The consensus seems to be that a standard submission format is more readable, but people should be given the flexibility to justify their spread how they want. Thus we will take the template up and including the BSR line and leave the justification section freeform.

These changes will not apply to CAP 29 but will apply to future CAP stat spread submission threads.
 
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