Suicide Six: Hyper Offense (Peak 1800)

[ambervoid]

Introduction:

Hi Smogon, I want to introduce you to the team I've been laddering with for the past weeks. A trip to the Competitive Discussions section of Smogon will endow you with generous discussions on Stall and the Bulky Offense archetypes, and though Hyper Offense is very much on the community's mind in the XY metagame, I find that there is limited discussion and experimentation dedicated to the topic.

I've constructed a team below that has garnered a 67% win rate over 61 games on Pokemon Showdown, and while I've been pleased with this team's performance, I fear that there is much room to improve and adapt to a changing metagame. "Suicide Six" grew from the foundations of the BW metagame--with its dual screeners, set up sweepers, and kamikaze choice wallbreakers--and integrated a few new elements of the current generation. I began the team's construction with the intent of abusing Mega Lucario's sweeping potential, and surrounded the blue canine with a cast of pokemon that would eliminate its most dangerous threats. I hope as well that this RMT will provide others with a launchpad in developing their own teams.

At a glance:

In-depth Look:

Conkeldurr @ Leftovers
Ability: Guts
EVs: 238 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch

Depending on the opponent's pokemon, I'll lead with either Conkeldurr or Espeon. Conkeldurr serves three purposes on my team. First, it eats burn, and hits back even harder due to the guts boost. Second, against scouters carrying U-turn, Conkeldurr is sufficiently bulky to take the damage, and return the switch-in with a massive Drain Punch. Third, Conkeldurr draws out specially oriented Psychic and Ghost pokemon that allow Tyranitar to trap and Pursuit to death. Pokemon such as Alakazam and Gengar are prime targets for this maneuver as they can interrupt a Mega Lucario sweep by outspeeding the blue canine.

Espeon @ Light Clay
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk /252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Reflect
- Light Screen

Espeon is the other Pokemon I will lead with in the case that the I feel the opposing team will lead with a pokemon that Conkeldurr cannot handle. I use Espeon here for three reseasons as well. First, I run no entry hazards on this team, as I fear this, like many other HO teams, relies heavily on momentum and continuous threat. Espeon, thus, is able to use Magic Bounce to return opposing Stealth Rocks and compensate for this missing element to my team. Second, like Conkeldurr, Espeon works well against status, which can absolutely ruin the four pokemon below this. Finally, Dual Screens prior to a Lucario sweep allows the blue canine to survive possible switch-in threats when Lucario Nasty Plots. I am open, however, to new ideas in place of Espeon.

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 64 Atk / 192 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump

Salamence is something of a personal favorite. As a mixed sweeper with enormous wall breaking potential, I use Salamence to switch in and Intimidate looming physical threats. I generally Draco Meteor immediately after switch-in in, often times to lure out opposing steel pokemon or special walls/tanks. I deal with the former using Fire Blast and the latter using Outrage. Hydro Pump is effective against Heatran. There is some redundancy here with Kyurem-B, and so I'm open to alternative wallbreakers in this slot that could better combat the weaknesses I've listed below.

Tyranitar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

Tyranitar is, from what I have found, to be the most effective Assault Vest user. Tyranitar serves two primary roles on my team. First, I will switch in Tyranitar immediately to deal with strong Psychic and Ghost threats. Assault Vest plus the 252 SDef EV's allow Tyranitar to be 2HKO'd by Focus Blasts from Alakazam and Gengar as opposed to OHKO. I return with a guaranteed OHKO Crunch, as I found most people do not expect to Ttar to survive Focus Blast. Against other special threats, I will simply Pursuit. Second, Tyranitar comes in on the common Flying threats in OU. It resits both of Talonflames STAB attacks, and deals significant damage to Togekiss. Ttar is Adamant as a +SpDef nature still keeps Mega Alakazam and Gengar Focus Blasts at 2HKO. The extra Attack is greatly appreciated against neutral damage targets.

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Iron Head
- Dragon Claw

Another Dragon wallbreaker? Yes. Scarf Kyurem is simply an Outrage machine that I unleash once the Fairy and Steel threats are out of the way. Kyurem will 2HKO Genesect despite the bug's Dragon resistance, and softens up other Pokemon designed to take Physical beatings. As the title of this team suggests, Kyurem is almost always killed at some point during the battle, as it's purpose is simply to cause as much damage with Outrage as possible before allowing Lucario to step into the limelight. Finally, Kyurem effectively revenge kills Mega Kangaskhan with Outrage. As you'll quickly find when you play HO, dealing with threats is often less about finding a counter, and more about knowing who to sacrifice and when to do it.

Lucario-Mega @ Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Aura Sphere

I'll keep my comments here short. Mega Lucario comes in once the opposing team is softened and threats are eliminated. Oftentimes, I relish the chance to set up on walls such as Mandibuzz or Sableye who cannot effectively deal with Lucario. A simple Nasty Plot and Aura Sphere seals the deal.


Conclusion and Advice Sought:

While this team has been successful in many regards, it suffers from weaknesses to a number of threats. I am looking for advice on how I can better deal with these Pokemon without compromising the core of the Hyper Offense, Lucario-centered play. Three threats particularly stand out for me.

1. Certain Fairy-types are very difficult for me to deal with given my use of two Dragon wallbreakers. In particular Azumarill gives me quite the headache. 2. Toxic Stall Gliscor and Tentacruel are two sponges/walls that do well against this team. Even after Nasty Plot, Lucario cannot OHKO a 252 HP EV Gliscor. Likewise, Tentacruel's high Special Defense and Fighting Resist pose problems. 3. Certain Scarf sweepers such as Scarf Garchomp that outspeed Kyurem can wreak havoc on my team.

Importable:

​

Importable

Lucario-Mega @ Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Aura Sphere

Tyranitar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

Conkeldurr @ Leftovers
Ability: Guts
EVs: 238 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch

Espeon @ Light Clay
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Reflect
- Light Screen

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 64 Atk / 192 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Iron Head
- Dragon Claw

 

[_Tonks_]

I can totally see Azumarill ripping through you if it's set up right, but I assume that doesn't happen often? I really really like the team and would like to use it once Showdown is working for me, If you wouldn't mind of course. I like how it's very Meta without having to abuse the typical Meta pokemon, Aside from Lucario and Ttar, but usually people do mega TTar. Every Team will have things that counter them, it's just natural. I have a team that's designed to make people falsely predict so I can counter them, but even THAT has counters. Major Stall pokes, Sub, blah blah ect ect. I can kind of see you having the same problems that team would have? Toxic Stall, Heavy Sub Abuse, Maybe even a really good Malamar, who knows. As I said though, I really like the team, It does what it's supposed to do and I imagine it sometimes does more. I however don't like the idea of being stuck with designated leads, It was never my thing though. Mainly because well known leads can be countered. I can easily counter an Espeon Lead and Conk Lead with Exca EQ. And knowing if you're going to switch I could Rock Slide into Salamence. It's just things you need to watch out for. Good luck progressing with this team...I like it, lol.

 

[ouchalargerock]

How the hell did you only peak at around 1800? This team has very few holes as a Hyper Offensive team.

To fix your weakness to Azuzu, try running Flash Cannon on Lucario, and possibly switching Conkeldurr for a SubChamp/Bulk Up set. Access to Bullet Punch, all the Elemental Punches and no Guard may do you well.

Other than that, not too much to suggest, hope I could help!

 

[jgj]

I would suggest you switch Kyurem B's role with Salamence: Kyrurem B as a Sub 3 attack set and standard scarf Mence. Kyurem B not being choice locked into a move allows you to deal with Gliscors, Tentacruel, Fairies(Fusion Bolt for Togekiss and Azumarill) and the Sub for Toxics from the Pokes mentioned above. The scarf shouldn't be necessary for knocking out M-Kangaskhan since you already have Mach Punch on Conkeldur and Vaccum Wave on Lucario. Giving Salamence a Scarf helps you a little bit more with faster Scarfers and is really good once Fairies and Steels are removed.
I agree with ouchalargerock that you should run Flash Cannon on Luke since it allows him to 2HKO Gliscor on the switch and also helps with Fairies more. You might also want to try running Knock Off over Thunder Punch on Conk because of the buff it got and knocking off items is very useful.

Kyurem-B spread: 56 HP / 216 Atk / 236 Spe The spread is from Smogon BW analysis. Allows for 101 Subs and out speeding positive base 80's.

Hope this rate was helpful.

 

[ninjawhitetiger]

I noticed that you seem to be trying to maximise bulk with your conkledurr, and are running all attacking moves, i see no reason not to slap an assault vest on that thing other than that this team seems to play really well

 

[blizzarddd]

if you're gonna run life orb on conk, definitely run sheer force. Running guts means i assume you are gonna be using it as a status absorber, and Life orb + burn/toxic adds up very quickly


EDIT: i have been using this team with leftovers and guts on conk, so fun. staying in on rotom-w and absorbing a burn and then doing 65%ish with a drain punch is too awesome

one more thing to think about, you could possibly give Kyu-B ice beam/blizzard to deal with random stuff like gliscor better. i believe an icebeam is an OHKO on standard gliscor even when using adamant nature. outrage does 47-54%, so after recovery, not too much

 

[ambervoid]

Thank you so much for the feedback guys. Please don't hesitate to copy my team, give it few games on Pokemon Showdown, maybe try a few new options here and there. If you do try the team out, I hope you will let me know how your games went, and what you feel the team did and did not do well. I'd love to continue integrating your feedback toward making a better Hyper Offense team.

A few responses.

Pjbball04, I will definitely try switching out life orb for leftovers for additional sustainability. Ninjawhitetiger, I think Assault Vest may work as well. I agree with the thought process here. If you're running guts, you ought to hold a defensive item.

jgj, I think switching Kyurem and Salamence's roles is another means to viably tackle some of this team's counters. I'll look into that as well.

ouchalargerock, Flash Cannon on Lucario is another thing I will definitely try out.

Tonks, I try not to lead with the same pokemon each time, but I find myself getting lazy sometimes, and throwing Conk out on most occasions for pure simplicity. As I mentioned, please feel free to copy the team and do as you wish with it! Let me know if you enjoy it, and have any additional suggestions towards the Azumarill quandary.

 

[BackStreetTabby]

Hey there.

Your team seems to be extremely weak to (ironically) Mega Lucario. To fix this, I would replace Kyurem-B with (again ironically) Azumarill. It resists Fighting and can take some Steel attacks, and can fight back with Aqua Jet or Aqua tail. Rotom-W is also a solid choice, but it may slow down your momentum a bit. However, since your momentum is gone anyway on a sturdy physical wall such as Ferrothorn, might I suggest a TrickScarf variant? It provides your team a good revenge-killer, while maintaining the bulk gained by good typing and the ability to cripple walls so Lucario can set up all over it. Walls tend to try to Toxic Rotom-W... Well, that's a free turn of Luke alright.

Hope I helped!

 

[ambervoid]

Tabby, you're extremely right in that I have difficulties fighting opposing Mega Lucario.

I gave some of the advice in this thread a go, and I've found that flash cannon on Lucario, leftovers and knock off over thunderpunch on Conkeldurr have been an absolute improvement. With those suggestions, I managed to hit 1800 on a separate account in 53 games, going 38 wins and 15 losses.

Still, I've yet to find the perfect match for this team in terms of solutions to dealing with opposing fairies (Azumarill, Clefable, Togekiss), Mega Lucarios, and Scarf Garchomps. I'd love to hear any additional suggestions you guys have.

 

[ExEmegadeth]

I do think that Espeon could get replaced to give your team more solid special attacking potential, as it seems pretty physical ATM. Genesect could be a good option, as with its scarf set it allows you to check outspeed (and live a priority hit from megaluke's physical sets) and KO. A choice banded set may also work, as it allows you to deal with faries more easily. If you don't want to change your cube's scarf banded is definetly an option. This allows you to wall break faries.

I don't really like how that Mence is looking right now, but I can't really come up with what to replace it with, however. If you do carry the banded genesect a special wall breaker could go here...

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

1. Certain Fairy-types are very difficult for me to deal with given my use of two Dragon wallbreakers. In particular Azumarill gives me quite the headache. 2. Toxic Stall Gliscor and Tentacruel are two sponges/walls that do well against this team. Even after Nasty Plot, Lucario cannot OHKO a 252 HP EV Gliscor. Likewise, Tentacruel's high Special Defense and Fighting Resist pose problems. 3. Certain Scarf sweepers such as Scarf Garchomp that outspeed Kyurem can wreak havoc on my team.

Well, if you are still listening, the Landorus listed here could replace Kyurem or Salamence:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/freed-ubers.3493447/page-7

Landorus @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Earth Power
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Focus Blast

Explanations are posted in that thread...

It may not deal with Azumarill (Rotom-W does a fine job for me though), but does get past most Fairies (and Goodra and TTar quite easily). It also deals with Tentacruel. Gliscor was problematic for me, but I just said fuck it and got a Greninja and an Expert Belt Genesect to terminate if it thinks it can use it set-up bait. Expert Belt Genesect can sponge a Dragon attack or Earthquake from Garchomp and KO it with Ice Beam and if it switches out, you can might switch attacks and KO the switch in with an appropriate move. Your Conkeldurr can handle Garchomp by sponging its hits and KOing back, but you probably would used it to remove Rotom-W or Ferrothorn, so it would not be healthy for an encounter against Garchomp.

Scarfchomp is hard, although my Rotom and Lando-T does fairly well against Garchomp (since Garchomp outspeed them, I do not know how many of them are Scarfed). Suggesting Rotom-W and Lando-T might go against your playing style or desires of the team. Lando-T would give you a Stealth Rock user with some offensive presence to deter Excadrill from spinning, but you cannot use Lando-I if you use Lando-T.


---

I am not a hyper offensive player, but I want to know how do you deal with Talonflame without a Stealth Rock user or anything besides Ttar that resists its STABs (and U-turn) variants can hit Ttar super-effectively.

Why Shadow Ball over Dark Pulse on Lucario? Dark Pulse has a 20% chance of a free turn and you have Flash Cannon to deal with Fairies.

 

[ambervoid]

Definitely still listening!

Assault Vest on Conk is something I'm starting to love. I've used the special Landorus with Sheer Force+Life Orb on another team, and I've found it to be great. It definitely fits with the type of team I'm used to playing, but I worry that the threat of Azumarill coming in still looms with Landorus. As you mentioned, CM Latias, Rotom W seems to do the trick here with the particular weaknesses I have. You're correct in asserting that it's different from the style of team I'm used to playing, but I will happily consider it as an option in order to construct a stronger team! Thank you for the suggestions!

And Dark Pulse, you make an excellent point. I seemed to have overlooked that option altogether. It may indeed be a strictly better option than Shadow Ball.

In regards to Talonflame, while Ttar may be the only answer I have, it absolutely demolishes the fiery bird. A super effective U-turn does a mere ~25% damage to Ttar, and I've been successful in switching in Salamence should Ttar be unavailable.