name: Substitute
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 4: Ice Beam / Rain Dance / Toxic
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 104 SpA / 152 Spe
Substitute Suicune is a variant of offensive Suicune that generally has more utility in the late-game. This analysis primarily explores maximum HP Substitute Suicune, which can beat Blissey one-on-one outside of sand thanks to its 101 HP Substitute withstanding Seismic Toss. Substitute also provides protection against status from Milotic, Leech Seed from Celebi, and Explosion from slower Pokemon like Metagross and Snorlax, turning what would ordinarily be checks into setup fodder. The downside to Substitute Suicune is that unlike standard offensive Suicune, it cannot phaze or take out opposing Suicune, and maximum HP versions need to drop coverage or rely on partners for sand removal.
Ideally, Substitute Suicune obtains enough Calm Mind boosts to overwhelm the opponent, so the extra power Hydro Pump offers over Surf is unnecessary. This is by far the dominant preference. However, Surf Suicune usually needs to be at full HP to beat Blissey. Where that condition is a challenge, using Hydro Pump instead gives Suicune the possibility of taking out Blissey with one less boost. Also, Hydro Pump with high Special Attack investment gives Suicune the possibility of OHKOing Dragon Dance Tyranitar should Suicune need to be used defensively.
Ice Beam hits Celebi and Salamence, and provides Suicune a reliable way of hitting Zapdos hard. It is mostly used when the team has a Rain Dance or Sunny Day user to remove sand. Without a weather changer, Rain Dance becomes a key move of the set. Rain Dance Suicune is a potent weather changer, as it can clear sand in time to beat Blissey even in the face of Tyranitar by forcing Tyranitar out. Note that rain multiplies damage on top of Calm Mind boosts, making it easier to take out Blissey too.
While Substitute Suicune is known for its late-game prowess, Toxic makes it a good lead that can immediately provide pressure as the opponent switches to Blissey or Celebi. It also helps take out these special walls in the late-game. As Toxic takes several turns to accumulate damage, this set is sometimes better used mid-game, especially when Pokemon like Salamence or Zapdos remain.
There are a couple of fringe sets that require heavy support to function. Roar in the last slot prevents Suicune from being walled by opposing Suicune, but dropping Ice Beam makes dealing with Celebi tricky. The ability to set up on opposing Suicune and Milotic unimpeded is a huge asset on rain-based teams, which naturally have a weather changer already; there, the most straightforward way to deal with Celebi is to lure it with Explosion Gengar and follow up with Dugtrio. Short of entirely removing Celebi, Spikes with Speed investment on Suicune to block Leech Seed is an interesting way of mitigating those issues; after six boosts, Suicune can phaze Celebi. The opponent is then forced to give up the Pokemon brought in or switch back to Celebi, which takes Spikes damage and then gets 2HKOed. The same can be done to Milotic, which does not get 2HKOed without significant Special Attack investment. Protect is another viable option on rain-based teams. Protect increases Suicune's longevity significantly in the absence of sand and allows Suicune to set up on Blissey and Swampert more comfortably; in the right circumstances, it even allows Suicune to set up on Snorlax, Starmie and mixed Salamence.
As far as EVs go, Substitute Suicune by and large uses maximum HP to ensure that Blissey's Seismic Toss does not break Substitute. This unfortunately starves Suicune of offensive investment, and subjective tradeoffs have to be made. 172 and 96 Special Attack EVs are needed to 2HKO Blissey with 252 and 44 HP EVs, respectively. Unfortunately, the former only leaves enough Speed to outrun Body Slam Jirachi and neutral Dragon Dance Tyranitar; strictly speaking, only 64 Speed EVs are needed, leaving a spread of 192 SpA / 64 Spe. The latter, which outspeeds all Tyranitar, Adamant Metagross, Modest Magneton, and slower Celebi and Jirachi, frequently lacks in power against Blissey and other checks Suicune can potentially break through like Celebi, Zapdos, Snorlax, and Heracross; again, only 152 Speed EVs are needed, leaving a spread of 104 SpA / 152 Spe. Given these massive tradeoffs, a minority of Substitute Suicune simply forgo HP in favor of Speed and Special Attack. This is a good option on teams that are comfortable facing Blissey but not Celebi, such as those with Snorlax or mixed Metagross.
Note that Suicune usually needs to be a turn ahead to reach +6 and beat Blissey convincingly. This requires Blissey to switch into Suicune as it starts setting up, or, less preferably, trick Blissey into using a status move as Suicune uses Substitute. Careful planning is paramount to getting Substitute Suicune to work.
Team Options
========
This Suicune works best on offensive teams, though in a somewhat distinct manner from standard offensive Suicune. Its ability to set up on Blissey comes with a set of hurdles that usually have to be supported by teammates.
Removing sand is necessary for non-Rain Dance Suicune to beat Blissey. Ideal weather changing teammates should have relatively disposable moveslots, be difficult to trap, and be fast or bulky enough to clear the weather before they get KOed. Such partners include Rain Dance Zapdos, Sunny Day Dugtrio, Sunny Day Moltres, and possibly Kingdra on rain teams. Rain Dance Magneton is easily trapped, but has two disposable moveslots and can run an Endure + Salac Berry set if one is really desperate. Note that Dugtrio is helpful for permanently removing Tyranitar but is not necessary.
As Suicune usually needs to be near full HP to beat Blissey, mitigating Spikes is important. Magneton traps Skarmory and Forretress in an attempt to limit them to one layer of Spikes and makes sure Skarmory does not continuously accumulate damage on Suicune by phazing. Alternatively, one can use a spinner like offensive Claydol, whose Explosion has a myriad of uses like removing Zapdos and Celebi and weakening Tyranitar for a Dugtrio trap, which enables permanent sand removal later. Choice Band Metagross and Curse + Self-Destruct Snorlax can also lure and remove Skarmory and Forretress.
As Suicune needs to preserve its HP if it wants to beat Blissey, it prefers not to act as the bulky Water-type early-game and so appreciates partners that can check or at least trade with physical threats like Tyranitar, Metagross, and Salamence. These include offensive or Endeavor Swampert, Dugtrio, and mixed Metagross. This division of labor is highly efficient, because it's more likely that the teams that can overwhelm these teammates and require your Suicune to be used defensively are physically offensive and lack passive Pokemon that require Suicune's Substitute. Kingdra performs a slightly similar function on rain teams, though a more accurate description of its role is to conquer offensive teams, while Substitute Suicune dominates defensive teams.
Another way to keep Suicune's HP up is Wish, which eliminates damage that Suicune takes from being used defensively, using Substitute, and switching into Spikes. The best Wish users for supporting Substitute Suicune are reasonably fast because they can use Wish right before sacrificing themselves so that Suicune gets the Wish without getting hit. These include Salamence, Jirachi, and Jolteon.
Removing and pressuring Suicune's checks is always appreciated. Mixed Explosion Metagross lures in Zapdos and Celebi; it can also use Pursuit to chip Gengar into KO range of Suicune's Surf. Snorlax can switch into opposing Suicune and threaten to use Self-Destruct. If Suicune does not have Ice Beam, then having other sources of Ice-type coverage and switch-ins to Salamence like Porygon2 and, again, offensive or Endeavor Swampert is immensely useful. Suicune without Ice Beam will also need to remove Celebi, in which case Dugtrio, with its added utility of changing weather and revenge killing physical threats, becomes a prime partner. Pokemon that appreciate sand removal like Salac Berry Heracross and Snorlax make for natural partners to Rain Dance Suicune.
name: Modest RestTalk
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Surf
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Modest
evs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Modest RestTalk Suicune is an offensive Suicune variant designed to combine longevity with consistent damage and offensive pressure. Its premise is simple: RestTalk affords it both recovery and the ability to continuously boost and attack, rendering it practically immune to status and a threat to phazers. Its simplicity belies its effectiveness, however, as it can easily accumulate boosts against unsuspecting checks and snowball its way through a team. This Suicune is, in particular, a stallbreaker that attempts to exploit the single turn of Sleep Talk by threatening to hit phazers with Sleep Talk Surf for massive damage as they switch in, all without the opponent making any progress. The result is a sweeper that can find early-game setup opportunities and exert constant pressure until a window emerges for it to sweep.
An important factor in understanding Suicune's use involves the mechanics behind Sleep Talk; if Suicune switches out immediately after using Sleep Talk, then the turns spent sleeping are reset to zero, thereby giving it two further sleep turns. However, if Sleep Talk is not used on Suicune's next turn of sleep before switching, Suicune wakes up as normal. Suicune can thus use Sleep Talk while the phazer comes in and simply continue sleeping on the turn it is phazed. When all is said and done, Suicune awakens quickly and the phazer has had no opportunity to do damage or, in the case of Skarmory, lay Spikes. Furthermore, when combined with teammates that provide consistent and constant pressure on Skarmory, the phaze rarely brings in Pokemon that Skarmory can set Spikes on without being punished.
This Suicune is particularly threatening to teams with Skarmory + Swampert + Blissey cores, as it can switch in easily throughout the game and accumulate boosts, use Rest at opportune moments, and then let loose with Surf against the lineup of Pokemon that don't resist Water. The EV spread tends towards power and bulk, with a little Speed to ensure that Suicune outruns slower wallbreakers like Marowak. Other Speed benchmarks like 68 or 152 EVs to outrun Adamant or Jolly Dragon Dance Tyranitar can also be used. Taking out EVs from either HP or Special Attack can be reasonable; surviving an extra Seismic Toss isn't that important when Suicune can boost while sleeping anyway.
Team Options
========
As potent as RestTalk Suicune is, its reliance on Surf leaves it slowed down by Pokemon that resist Water such as other Suicune, Celebi, Salamence, and Vaporeon. Thus, this Suicune set partners well with offensive threats that appreciate its ability to switch into Swampert and Blissey consistently and constantly pressure TSS teams. In particular, offensive Explosion users like Metagross and Snorlax can switch into some of Suicune's answers while luring opposing Suicune and Celebi, easing Suicune's path to a sweep. Mixed Metagross in particular is another Pokemon that targets TSS cores while luring Zapdos and Celebi, while Curse + Self-Destruct Snorlax tends to lure Explosion, which could stop Suicune, from opposing Metagross. Endeavor Swampert is an interesting partner, threatening to remove RestTalk Suicune counters in opposing Suicune and Celebi via Endeavor and providing Ice Beam coverage for Salamence. Most of these offensive threats not only prepare Suicune's sweep but also maintain the pressure on Skarmory should it phaze Suicune, preventing it from setting Spikes freely. Should one want a Spikes setter, Taunt Skarmory or Forretress can fulfill that role and prevent opposing Skarmory from setting Spikes as well. Porygon2 can switch into mixed and Dragon Dance Salamence indefinitely and trap Dugtrio before it gets a chance to remove Suicune while sleeping. Claydol provides a Thunderbolt switch-in, a Rock resistance, and the ability to remove Spikes to facilitate Suicune's entrance. While not as common, Flygon is a good partner, as it is a Spikes-immune Pokemon that can check Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, and non-Hidden Power Ice Zapdos while appreciating Suicune's ability to carve up Swampert + Skarmory + Blissey cores.
Wish users like Salamence, Blissey, and Jirachi can assist Suicune by easing its entry while sleeping. While not an obvious partner, Magneton removes the most potent phazer and Spiker in the tier, Skarmory, thereby making it easier for Suicune to take control of a game. Celebi can support Suicune against Electric-type attacks while checking opposing Suicune, and it can support Suicune's longevity and offensive pressure with Leech Seed and Baton Pass.
[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Reflect is an option that bolsters Suicune's already absurd physical bulk while providing team support; for example, it prevents Celebi from getting trapped by Dugtrio as easily. It is a viable option on Rest Suicune for weakening Explosion, especially while sleeping, and helps Suicune take down Snorlax. It also can be used on Substitute Suicune, where it helps to prevent Snorlax from breaking Substitute. Of course, dropping Roar or Ice Beam coverage requires the rest of the team to deal with opposing Suicune, Celebi, and Salamence.
Mirror Coat can be used as a lure to Electric-types, as Suicune's natural bulk allows it to take Zapdos's Thunderbolt and return the damage. The most convincing way to execute this tactic is using Calm Mind as Zapdos switches in. However, this can backfire if Zapdos uses a status-inducing move expecting a switch or to compensate for it running lower Speed than Suicune.
Substitute + Rest has several uses. First, as Blissey must use Seismic Toss twice to break Suicune's Substitute, Suicune is at full HP on the first turn of sleep, providing increased longevity. Second, Substitute is a safe play that guards against phazers that attempt to come in on the predicted Rest turn to restrict Suicune to burning only one turn of sleep. Third, Substitute guards Suicune against critical hits and getting trapped by Dugtrio, and Explosion while sleeping. Fourth, Substitute helps Rest Suicune PP stall Blissey. However, Substitute ultimately comes at the expense of Roar, which many Suicune teams need to avoid being set up on.
Rain Dance can be used even on non-Substitute sets, increasing Suicune's longevity and power while supporting teammates. Protect can be used for Leftovers recovery outside of sand and to play around Explosion from threats like Metagross, Snorlax, and Gengar.
Checks and Counters
===================
Suicune's versatility makes it difficult to pinpoint blanket checks and counters. How one plays against Suicune is highly dependent on its set and the game scenario.
Defensive Suicune is usually only dangerous when it gets several boosts and survives using Rest with a turn to spare. Offensive teams can frequently defeat Suicune by attacking, especially with sand and Spikes, such that Suicune does not have time to boost nor escape from using Rest constantly. Even sacrificing a Pokemon like Dragon Dance Tyranitar to bring Suicune down to low HP can frequently be enough to render Suicune useless. Defensive teams can wall Suicune, force it to use Rest, and phaze it out while attempting to set Spikes to wear Suicune down. In the late-game, a Taunt Gengar or Explosion user with a strong follow-up Pokemon like Dugtrio or a sweeper can deliver the final blow.
Offensive Suicune is a lot more straightforward to wall because it mostly lacks recovery and acts like any other special sweeper. As Suicune is relatively slow, general offensive pressure can take it down even if one lacks solid checks. Substitute Suicune can be trickier for defensive teams because it masquerades as offensive Suicune, but Substitute turns its checks into setup fodder. One should look out for signs like weather changers or Ice-type coverage on a teammate, and preserve Tyranitar or other generic Suicune counters like Zapdos where possible.
RestTalk Suicune may be mistaken for generic offensive Suicune or defensive Suicune. While general offensive pressure is just as effective in dealing with RestTalk Suicune, defensive teams with Blissey have to be careful not to simply get steamrolled. Again, one should look out for telltale signs, such as a powerful Surf, the presence of Tyranitar suggesting a Suicune set that doesn't mind sand much, lacking maximum HP, or aggressively setting up early-game. The priorities should then shift towards immediate phazing, setting Spikes, and putting oneself in offensive positions that avoid Suicune getting a free setup turn.
The following is a summary of strategic methods of dealing with Suicune.
**Indirect Damage**: Suicune is adversely affected by sand and Spikes; to prevent Suicune from recovering from the passive damage endlessly via Rest, offensive pressure, Explosion, or Taunt forces Suicune to give up using Rest or never wake up healthy again. Teams without sand and Spikes are more pressed to use dedicated Suicune counters like Snorlax and Celebi.
**Explosion**: Explosion users such as Gengar, Metagross, Cloyster, Forretress, and Claydol can take a chunk out of Suicune to limit its setup and break its Rest loops. This is even more potent if the Explosion user is faster, as Explosion ends the turn before Suicune can act. Explosion also mitigates offensive Suicune's onslaught.
**Phazers**: Phazers can delay defensive Suicune while it's sleeping, but will not make progress alone. Using phazers with Spikes provides the chip damage needed to force Rest uses and withers away the rest of the team such that when Suicune is the last Pokemon standing, it can be dealt with using offensive pressure, Taunt, or Explosion. The best phazers are those that cannot be trapped, as defensive Suicune often comes with Dugtrio or Magneton; hence, while Tyranitar and Skarmory can do the job, they aren't as reliable as Zapdos, Swampert, and Moltres.
**Taunt**: Taunt stops defensive Suicune from setting up and using Rest. The most prominent Taunt user is Gengar, which also has the luxury of threatening Suicune with Will-O-Wisp, Thunderbolt, and sometimes Explosion. It cannot easily switch into Suicune, however, and is better used to beat it in the late-game. Another Taunt user is Gyarados, which is able to set up on Suicune. Gyarados is highly favored to beat defensive Suicune and can heavily chip offensive Suicune, though it has some trouble getting past the latter due to Ice Beam.
The following are Pokemon that can deal with Suicune directly.
**Celebi**: Leech Seed Celebi is the best answer to defensive Suicune. It has naturally high bulk, a resistance to Suicune's STAB attacks, Leech Seed to wear away at Suicune's health, and STAB Grass-type attacks to prevent Suicune from attempting to stall it out via Rest. Some Celebi may even carry Perish Song or Calm Mind to boost up with non-Roar Suicune. Faster Celebi can even use Leech Seed on offensive Suicune and attempt to stall it out with Recover, though Celebi is likely to get frozen or receive a critical hit eventually. Celebi is very unreliable against faster Suicune though, as they can threaten to 2HKO Celebi with boosted Ice Beam or simply wall its Leech Seed via Substitute and set up on it for free.
**Zapdos**: Zapdos is the best offensive answer to defensive Suicune, as threatens it with STAB Thunderbolt, can phase it with Roar, and has naturally high Special Defense. Note that Zapdos needs to be healthy to check Suicune. Offensive sets can be chipped and worn down while switching in, while defensive sets can be forced to use Rest. Zapdos is a lot less resilient against offensive Suicune. There is a good chance that bulkless Zapdos gets OHKOed by +1 offensive Suicune's Ice Beam, and defensive Zapdos is frequently in a losing position if Suicune outspeeds it.
**Blissey**: The tier's premier answer to special attackers, Blissey does extremely well against offensive Suicune, threatening to inflict status on it with Toxic or Thunder Wave and gradually wear it down while walling its attacks. However, it cannot beat Rest Suicune, becoming a short-term wall that forces Suicune to use Rest while relying on teammates to make progress. Blissey can be exploited by a healthy Substitute Suicune or RestTalk Suicune.
**Snorlax**: Snorlax's high natural Special Defense allows it to switch into Suicune and set up or simply lay into it with powerful attacks. However, Suicune's high physical bulk presents a challenge. Defensive Snorlax struggles to push through defensive Rest Suicune, and can be worn down by offensive variants. Offensive Snorlax is usually forced to use Self-Destruct to try and take Suicune down.
**Milotic**: Milotic can stop offensive Suicune, especially non-Hidden Power Grass variants, in its tracks with Toxic and Recover. It can also wall defensive Suicune and force it to use Rest. Just like Blissey, it is setup fodder for Substitute Suicune and RestTalk Suicune.
**Salamence**: Choice Band Salamence makes for an interesting answer, as it resists Surf and can switch into Suicune without Ice Beam, threatening a roll to 3HKO defensive variants with Hidden Power Flying in sand or a critical hit while Suicune continuously uses Rest. Additionally, Salamence's Speed allows it to revenge kill worn-down offensive Suicune in certain scenarios. Its vulnerability to Ice Beam renders it imperfect as a check.
**Regice**: Regice combines high Special Defense with solid Special Attack to pressure Suicune with any of Thunderbolt, the rare Psych Up, and Explosion followed by Dugtrio. However, it has no longevity whatsoever, can be set up on, and can be outlasted by defensive Suicune in most scenarios.
**Jirachi**: Jirachi can use Calm Mind alongside Suicune variants lacking Roar, and pound them with Electric-type coverage. Jirachi's particular vulnerability to one of the most common moves in particular—Roar — renders it imperfect as a check.
**Venusaur**: Venusaur resists Surf, uses Leech Seed, and can disrupt offensive Suicune variants with Sleep Powder. However, it lacks Celebi's bulk and recovery and is more prone to being worn down.
**Vaporeon**: Vaporeon is technically a perfect counter to Suicune, as its Water Absorb renders it immune to Surf and it can threaten to remove Suicune's boosts via Roar or Haze, but it is vulnerable to Toxic, Hidden Power Grass, and PP stalling, as it cannot harm Suicune outside of Toxic.
[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Lord Ninjax, 200040]]
- Quality checked by: [[vapicuno, 5454], [M Dragon, 21345]]
- Grammar checked by: [[CryoGyro, 331519], [Muk, 33374]]
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 4: Ice Beam / Rain Dance / Toxic
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 104 SpA / 152 Spe
Substitute Suicune is a variant of offensive Suicune that generally has more utility in the late-game. This analysis primarily explores maximum HP Substitute Suicune, which can beat Blissey one-on-one outside of sand thanks to its 101 HP Substitute withstanding Seismic Toss. Substitute also provides protection against status from Milotic, Leech Seed from Celebi, and Explosion from slower Pokemon like Metagross and Snorlax, turning what would ordinarily be checks into setup fodder. The downside to Substitute Suicune is that unlike standard offensive Suicune, it cannot phaze or take out opposing Suicune, and maximum HP versions need to drop coverage or rely on partners for sand removal.
Ideally, Substitute Suicune obtains enough Calm Mind boosts to overwhelm the opponent, so the extra power Hydro Pump offers over Surf is unnecessary. This is by far the dominant preference. However, Surf Suicune usually needs to be at full HP to beat Blissey. Where that condition is a challenge, using Hydro Pump instead gives Suicune the possibility of taking out Blissey with one less boost. Also, Hydro Pump with high Special Attack investment gives Suicune the possibility of OHKOing Dragon Dance Tyranitar should Suicune need to be used defensively.
Ice Beam hits Celebi and Salamence, and provides Suicune a reliable way of hitting Zapdos hard. It is mostly used when the team has a Rain Dance or Sunny Day user to remove sand. Without a weather changer, Rain Dance becomes a key move of the set. Rain Dance Suicune is a potent weather changer, as it can clear sand in time to beat Blissey even in the face of Tyranitar by forcing Tyranitar out. Note that rain multiplies damage on top of Calm Mind boosts, making it easier to take out Blissey too.
While Substitute Suicune is known for its late-game prowess, Toxic makes it a good lead that can immediately provide pressure as the opponent switches to Blissey or Celebi. It also helps take out these special walls in the late-game. As Toxic takes several turns to accumulate damage, this set is sometimes better used mid-game, especially when Pokemon like Salamence or Zapdos remain.
There are a couple of fringe sets that require heavy support to function. Roar in the last slot prevents Suicune from being walled by opposing Suicune, but dropping Ice Beam makes dealing with Celebi tricky. The ability to set up on opposing Suicune and Milotic unimpeded is a huge asset on rain-based teams, which naturally have a weather changer already; there, the most straightforward way to deal with Celebi is to lure it with Explosion Gengar and follow up with Dugtrio. Short of entirely removing Celebi, Spikes with Speed investment on Suicune to block Leech Seed is an interesting way of mitigating those issues; after six boosts, Suicune can phaze Celebi. The opponent is then forced to give up the Pokemon brought in or switch back to Celebi, which takes Spikes damage and then gets 2HKOed. The same can be done to Milotic, which does not get 2HKOed without significant Special Attack investment. Protect is another viable option on rain-based teams. Protect increases Suicune's longevity significantly in the absence of sand and allows Suicune to set up on Blissey and Swampert more comfortably; in the right circumstances, it even allows Suicune to set up on Snorlax, Starmie and mixed Salamence.
As far as EVs go, Substitute Suicune by and large uses maximum HP to ensure that Blissey's Seismic Toss does not break Substitute. This unfortunately starves Suicune of offensive investment, and subjective tradeoffs have to be made. 172 and 96 Special Attack EVs are needed to 2HKO Blissey with 252 and 44 HP EVs, respectively. Unfortunately, the former only leaves enough Speed to outrun Body Slam Jirachi and neutral Dragon Dance Tyranitar; strictly speaking, only 64 Speed EVs are needed, leaving a spread of 192 SpA / 64 Spe. The latter, which outspeeds all Tyranitar, Adamant Metagross, Modest Magneton, and slower Celebi and Jirachi, frequently lacks in power against Blissey and other checks Suicune can potentially break through like Celebi, Zapdos, Snorlax, and Heracross; again, only 152 Speed EVs are needed, leaving a spread of 104 SpA / 152 Spe. Given these massive tradeoffs, a minority of Substitute Suicune simply forgo HP in favor of Speed and Special Attack. This is a good option on teams that are comfortable facing Blissey but not Celebi, such as those with Snorlax or mixed Metagross.
Note that Suicune usually needs to be a turn ahead to reach +6 and beat Blissey convincingly. This requires Blissey to switch into Suicune as it starts setting up, or, less preferably, trick Blissey into using a status move as Suicune uses Substitute. Careful planning is paramount to getting Substitute Suicune to work.
Team Options
========
This Suicune works best on offensive teams, though in a somewhat distinct manner from standard offensive Suicune. Its ability to set up on Blissey comes with a set of hurdles that usually have to be supported by teammates.
Removing sand is necessary for non-Rain Dance Suicune to beat Blissey. Ideal weather changing teammates should have relatively disposable moveslots, be difficult to trap, and be fast or bulky enough to clear the weather before they get KOed. Such partners include Rain Dance Zapdos, Sunny Day Dugtrio, Sunny Day Moltres, and possibly Kingdra on rain teams. Rain Dance Magneton is easily trapped, but has two disposable moveslots and can run an Endure + Salac Berry set if one is really desperate. Note that Dugtrio is helpful for permanently removing Tyranitar but is not necessary.
As Suicune usually needs to be near full HP to beat Blissey, mitigating Spikes is important. Magneton traps Skarmory and Forretress in an attempt to limit them to one layer of Spikes and makes sure Skarmory does not continuously accumulate damage on Suicune by phazing. Alternatively, one can use a spinner like offensive Claydol, whose Explosion has a myriad of uses like removing Zapdos and Celebi and weakening Tyranitar for a Dugtrio trap, which enables permanent sand removal later. Choice Band Metagross and Curse + Self-Destruct Snorlax can also lure and remove Skarmory and Forretress.
As Suicune needs to preserve its HP if it wants to beat Blissey, it prefers not to act as the bulky Water-type early-game and so appreciates partners that can check or at least trade with physical threats like Tyranitar, Metagross, and Salamence. These include offensive or Endeavor Swampert, Dugtrio, and mixed Metagross. This division of labor is highly efficient, because it's more likely that the teams that can overwhelm these teammates and require your Suicune to be used defensively are physically offensive and lack passive Pokemon that require Suicune's Substitute. Kingdra performs a slightly similar function on rain teams, though a more accurate description of its role is to conquer offensive teams, while Substitute Suicune dominates defensive teams.
Another way to keep Suicune's HP up is Wish, which eliminates damage that Suicune takes from being used defensively, using Substitute, and switching into Spikes. The best Wish users for supporting Substitute Suicune are reasonably fast because they can use Wish right before sacrificing themselves so that Suicune gets the Wish without getting hit. These include Salamence, Jirachi, and Jolteon.
Removing and pressuring Suicune's checks is always appreciated. Mixed Explosion Metagross lures in Zapdos and Celebi; it can also use Pursuit to chip Gengar into KO range of Suicune's Surf. Snorlax can switch into opposing Suicune and threaten to use Self-Destruct. If Suicune does not have Ice Beam, then having other sources of Ice-type coverage and switch-ins to Salamence like Porygon2 and, again, offensive or Endeavor Swampert is immensely useful. Suicune without Ice Beam will also need to remove Celebi, in which case Dugtrio, with its added utility of changing weather and revenge killing physical threats, becomes a prime partner. Pokemon that appreciate sand removal like Salac Berry Heracross and Snorlax make for natural partners to Rain Dance Suicune.
name: Modest RestTalk
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Surf
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Modest
evs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Modest RestTalk Suicune is an offensive Suicune variant designed to combine longevity with consistent damage and offensive pressure. Its premise is simple: RestTalk affords it both recovery and the ability to continuously boost and attack, rendering it practically immune to status and a threat to phazers. Its simplicity belies its effectiveness, however, as it can easily accumulate boosts against unsuspecting checks and snowball its way through a team. This Suicune is, in particular, a stallbreaker that attempts to exploit the single turn of Sleep Talk by threatening to hit phazers with Sleep Talk Surf for massive damage as they switch in, all without the opponent making any progress. The result is a sweeper that can find early-game setup opportunities and exert constant pressure until a window emerges for it to sweep.
An important factor in understanding Suicune's use involves the mechanics behind Sleep Talk; if Suicune switches out immediately after using Sleep Talk, then the turns spent sleeping are reset to zero, thereby giving it two further sleep turns. However, if Sleep Talk is not used on Suicune's next turn of sleep before switching, Suicune wakes up as normal. Suicune can thus use Sleep Talk while the phazer comes in and simply continue sleeping on the turn it is phazed. When all is said and done, Suicune awakens quickly and the phazer has had no opportunity to do damage or, in the case of Skarmory, lay Spikes. Furthermore, when combined with teammates that provide consistent and constant pressure on Skarmory, the phaze rarely brings in Pokemon that Skarmory can set Spikes on without being punished.
This Suicune is particularly threatening to teams with Skarmory + Swampert + Blissey cores, as it can switch in easily throughout the game and accumulate boosts, use Rest at opportune moments, and then let loose with Surf against the lineup of Pokemon that don't resist Water. The EV spread tends towards power and bulk, with a little Speed to ensure that Suicune outruns slower wallbreakers like Marowak. Other Speed benchmarks like 68 or 152 EVs to outrun Adamant or Jolly Dragon Dance Tyranitar can also be used. Taking out EVs from either HP or Special Attack can be reasonable; surviving an extra Seismic Toss isn't that important when Suicune can boost while sleeping anyway.
Team Options
========
As potent as RestTalk Suicune is, its reliance on Surf leaves it slowed down by Pokemon that resist Water such as other Suicune, Celebi, Salamence, and Vaporeon. Thus, this Suicune set partners well with offensive threats that appreciate its ability to switch into Swampert and Blissey consistently and constantly pressure TSS teams. In particular, offensive Explosion users like Metagross and Snorlax can switch into some of Suicune's answers while luring opposing Suicune and Celebi, easing Suicune's path to a sweep. Mixed Metagross in particular is another Pokemon that targets TSS cores while luring Zapdos and Celebi, while Curse + Self-Destruct Snorlax tends to lure Explosion, which could stop Suicune, from opposing Metagross. Endeavor Swampert is an interesting partner, threatening to remove RestTalk Suicune counters in opposing Suicune and Celebi via Endeavor and providing Ice Beam coverage for Salamence. Most of these offensive threats not only prepare Suicune's sweep but also maintain the pressure on Skarmory should it phaze Suicune, preventing it from setting Spikes freely. Should one want a Spikes setter, Taunt Skarmory or Forretress can fulfill that role and prevent opposing Skarmory from setting Spikes as well. Porygon2 can switch into mixed and Dragon Dance Salamence indefinitely and trap Dugtrio before it gets a chance to remove Suicune while sleeping. Claydol provides a Thunderbolt switch-in, a Rock resistance, and the ability to remove Spikes to facilitate Suicune's entrance. While not as common, Flygon is a good partner, as it is a Spikes-immune Pokemon that can check Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, and non-Hidden Power Ice Zapdos while appreciating Suicune's ability to carve up Swampert + Skarmory + Blissey cores.
Wish users like Salamence, Blissey, and Jirachi can assist Suicune by easing its entry while sleeping. While not an obvious partner, Magneton removes the most potent phazer and Spiker in the tier, Skarmory, thereby making it easier for Suicune to take control of a game. Celebi can support Suicune against Electric-type attacks while checking opposing Suicune, and it can support Suicune's longevity and offensive pressure with Leech Seed and Baton Pass.
[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Reflect is an option that bolsters Suicune's already absurd physical bulk while providing team support; for example, it prevents Celebi from getting trapped by Dugtrio as easily. It is a viable option on Rest Suicune for weakening Explosion, especially while sleeping, and helps Suicune take down Snorlax. It also can be used on Substitute Suicune, where it helps to prevent Snorlax from breaking Substitute. Of course, dropping Roar or Ice Beam coverage requires the rest of the team to deal with opposing Suicune, Celebi, and Salamence.
Mirror Coat can be used as a lure to Electric-types, as Suicune's natural bulk allows it to take Zapdos's Thunderbolt and return the damage. The most convincing way to execute this tactic is using Calm Mind as Zapdos switches in. However, this can backfire if Zapdos uses a status-inducing move expecting a switch or to compensate for it running lower Speed than Suicune.
Substitute + Rest has several uses. First, as Blissey must use Seismic Toss twice to break Suicune's Substitute, Suicune is at full HP on the first turn of sleep, providing increased longevity. Second, Substitute is a safe play that guards against phazers that attempt to come in on the predicted Rest turn to restrict Suicune to burning only one turn of sleep. Third, Substitute guards Suicune against critical hits and getting trapped by Dugtrio, and Explosion while sleeping. Fourth, Substitute helps Rest Suicune PP stall Blissey. However, Substitute ultimately comes at the expense of Roar, which many Suicune teams need to avoid being set up on.
Rain Dance can be used even on non-Substitute sets, increasing Suicune's longevity and power while supporting teammates. Protect can be used for Leftovers recovery outside of sand and to play around Explosion from threats like Metagross, Snorlax, and Gengar.
Checks and Counters
===================
Suicune's versatility makes it difficult to pinpoint blanket checks and counters. How one plays against Suicune is highly dependent on its set and the game scenario.
Defensive Suicune is usually only dangerous when it gets several boosts and survives using Rest with a turn to spare. Offensive teams can frequently defeat Suicune by attacking, especially with sand and Spikes, such that Suicune does not have time to boost nor escape from using Rest constantly. Even sacrificing a Pokemon like Dragon Dance Tyranitar to bring Suicune down to low HP can frequently be enough to render Suicune useless. Defensive teams can wall Suicune, force it to use Rest, and phaze it out while attempting to set Spikes to wear Suicune down. In the late-game, a Taunt Gengar or Explosion user with a strong follow-up Pokemon like Dugtrio or a sweeper can deliver the final blow.
Offensive Suicune is a lot more straightforward to wall because it mostly lacks recovery and acts like any other special sweeper. As Suicune is relatively slow, general offensive pressure can take it down even if one lacks solid checks. Substitute Suicune can be trickier for defensive teams because it masquerades as offensive Suicune, but Substitute turns its checks into setup fodder. One should look out for signs like weather changers or Ice-type coverage on a teammate, and preserve Tyranitar or other generic Suicune counters like Zapdos where possible.
RestTalk Suicune may be mistaken for generic offensive Suicune or defensive Suicune. While general offensive pressure is just as effective in dealing with RestTalk Suicune, defensive teams with Blissey have to be careful not to simply get steamrolled. Again, one should look out for telltale signs, such as a powerful Surf, the presence of Tyranitar suggesting a Suicune set that doesn't mind sand much, lacking maximum HP, or aggressively setting up early-game. The priorities should then shift towards immediate phazing, setting Spikes, and putting oneself in offensive positions that avoid Suicune getting a free setup turn.
The following is a summary of strategic methods of dealing with Suicune.
**Indirect Damage**: Suicune is adversely affected by sand and Spikes; to prevent Suicune from recovering from the passive damage endlessly via Rest, offensive pressure, Explosion, or Taunt forces Suicune to give up using Rest or never wake up healthy again. Teams without sand and Spikes are more pressed to use dedicated Suicune counters like Snorlax and Celebi.
**Explosion**: Explosion users such as Gengar, Metagross, Cloyster, Forretress, and Claydol can take a chunk out of Suicune to limit its setup and break its Rest loops. This is even more potent if the Explosion user is faster, as Explosion ends the turn before Suicune can act. Explosion also mitigates offensive Suicune's onslaught.
**Phazers**: Phazers can delay defensive Suicune while it's sleeping, but will not make progress alone. Using phazers with Spikes provides the chip damage needed to force Rest uses and withers away the rest of the team such that when Suicune is the last Pokemon standing, it can be dealt with using offensive pressure, Taunt, or Explosion. The best phazers are those that cannot be trapped, as defensive Suicune often comes with Dugtrio or Magneton; hence, while Tyranitar and Skarmory can do the job, they aren't as reliable as Zapdos, Swampert, and Moltres.
**Taunt**: Taunt stops defensive Suicune from setting up and using Rest. The most prominent Taunt user is Gengar, which also has the luxury of threatening Suicune with Will-O-Wisp, Thunderbolt, and sometimes Explosion. It cannot easily switch into Suicune, however, and is better used to beat it in the late-game. Another Taunt user is Gyarados, which is able to set up on Suicune. Gyarados is highly favored to beat defensive Suicune and can heavily chip offensive Suicune, though it has some trouble getting past the latter due to Ice Beam.
The following are Pokemon that can deal with Suicune directly.
**Celebi**: Leech Seed Celebi is the best answer to defensive Suicune. It has naturally high bulk, a resistance to Suicune's STAB attacks, Leech Seed to wear away at Suicune's health, and STAB Grass-type attacks to prevent Suicune from attempting to stall it out via Rest. Some Celebi may even carry Perish Song or Calm Mind to boost up with non-Roar Suicune. Faster Celebi can even use Leech Seed on offensive Suicune and attempt to stall it out with Recover, though Celebi is likely to get frozen or receive a critical hit eventually. Celebi is very unreliable against faster Suicune though, as they can threaten to 2HKO Celebi with boosted Ice Beam or simply wall its Leech Seed via Substitute and set up on it for free.
**Zapdos**: Zapdos is the best offensive answer to defensive Suicune, as threatens it with STAB Thunderbolt, can phase it with Roar, and has naturally high Special Defense. Note that Zapdos needs to be healthy to check Suicune. Offensive sets can be chipped and worn down while switching in, while defensive sets can be forced to use Rest. Zapdos is a lot less resilient against offensive Suicune. There is a good chance that bulkless Zapdos gets OHKOed by +1 offensive Suicune's Ice Beam, and defensive Zapdos is frequently in a losing position if Suicune outspeeds it.
**Blissey**: The tier's premier answer to special attackers, Blissey does extremely well against offensive Suicune, threatening to inflict status on it with Toxic or Thunder Wave and gradually wear it down while walling its attacks. However, it cannot beat Rest Suicune, becoming a short-term wall that forces Suicune to use Rest while relying on teammates to make progress. Blissey can be exploited by a healthy Substitute Suicune or RestTalk Suicune.
**Snorlax**: Snorlax's high natural Special Defense allows it to switch into Suicune and set up or simply lay into it with powerful attacks. However, Suicune's high physical bulk presents a challenge. Defensive Snorlax struggles to push through defensive Rest Suicune, and can be worn down by offensive variants. Offensive Snorlax is usually forced to use Self-Destruct to try and take Suicune down.
**Milotic**: Milotic can stop offensive Suicune, especially non-Hidden Power Grass variants, in its tracks with Toxic and Recover. It can also wall defensive Suicune and force it to use Rest. Just like Blissey, it is setup fodder for Substitute Suicune and RestTalk Suicune.
**Salamence**: Choice Band Salamence makes for an interesting answer, as it resists Surf and can switch into Suicune without Ice Beam, threatening a roll to 3HKO defensive variants with Hidden Power Flying in sand or a critical hit while Suicune continuously uses Rest. Additionally, Salamence's Speed allows it to revenge kill worn-down offensive Suicune in certain scenarios. Its vulnerability to Ice Beam renders it imperfect as a check.
**Regice**: Regice combines high Special Defense with solid Special Attack to pressure Suicune with any of Thunderbolt, the rare Psych Up, and Explosion followed by Dugtrio. However, it has no longevity whatsoever, can be set up on, and can be outlasted by defensive Suicune in most scenarios.
**Jirachi**: Jirachi can use Calm Mind alongside Suicune variants lacking Roar, and pound them with Electric-type coverage. Jirachi's particular vulnerability to one of the most common moves in particular—Roar — renders it imperfect as a check.
**Venusaur**: Venusaur resists Surf, uses Leech Seed, and can disrupt offensive Suicune variants with Sleep Powder. However, it lacks Celebi's bulk and recovery and is more prone to being worn down.
**Vaporeon**: Vaporeon is technically a perfect counter to Suicune, as its Water Absorb renders it immune to Surf and it can threaten to remove Suicune's boosts via Roar or Haze, but it is vulnerable to Toxic, Hidden Power Grass, and PP stalling, as it cannot harm Suicune outside of Toxic.
[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Lord Ninjax, 200040]]
- Quality checked by: [[vapicuno, 5454], [M Dragon, 21345]]
- Grammar checked by: [[CryoGyro, 331519], [Muk, 33374]]
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