Metagame Sun and Moon LC Discussion Thread

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Banned deucer.
Going to be overhyped like crazy by some of the less experienced players. It has a decent supportive movepool in things like Fake Out and Knock Off, but no attack stat, utility in Will-O-Wisp and setup potential in Nasty Plot, but no defensive stats to assist in these. It's ability is cool, but do you really need to Toxic a steel type when you are a Fire type. It doesn't even work with Toxic Spikes. I didn't even want to mention the forever looming threat of dying instantly to any of the trappers.
Expected Rank: C-/D
hey there and welcome to lc. how do you think salandit is gonna be D rank, while it can get nasty plot/koff/sbomb/flametrowher (moves you didnt even mention), and 18 speed? cmon its literally the Special Fire typer LC needed lol. idt it will be top tier but do you not think c-/d is a bit too much? b+/a- would make more sense imho.
The problem with Brave Bird is that it KOes itself but still I like Rufflet in this new gen to be much more of an immediate threat rather than a SubBulkUp (which is still an option but Brave Bird gives it more power immediately).
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I guess i'll pitch in with my input
I'm obviously incredibly happy with this change. Rufflet now has a lot of potential to be insane, since only weird sets and scarf chinchou will be able to avoid being 2hkoed by it (rufflet can carry shadow claw for honedge). I think that this makes all three of rufflet's sets, including the very mediocre LO set, a TON better. A lack of a good flying STAB was holding rufflet back, and it now has one. I do suppose the recoil from bb will hurt, but that only hurts lo/scarf sets since bulk up can roost off the damage.
I may be overhyping it a lot (we'll find out) but you know i'm going to be testing all kinds of rufflet sets in this new gen.

Why is nobody talking about this monster? Dewpider basically has Huge Power on its Water STAB. Here's a few cute calculations:

196+ Atk Life Orb Water Bubble
Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite
: 17-21 (80.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Water Bubble
Liquidation vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite
: 13-17 (50 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Water Bubble
Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite
: 17-21 (70.8 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Water Bubble
Liquidation vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite
: 13-17 (52 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Water Bubble
Liquidation vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def
: 12-14 (48 - 56%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Water Bubble
Liquidation vs. 36 HP / 196 Def
: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Water Bubble
Leech Life vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def
: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

Nothing enjoys switching in. Leech Life hits Water-types + recovers Dewpider's lost health from Stealth Rock and such. To beat Cottonee, it has Poison Jab; Croagunk, Hidden Power [Psychic]; Ferroseed, Hidden Power [Fire]. Dewpider's also got some nice bulk special-wise, and just enough Speed to run a Choice Scarf set. Plus, it can't be burned, and technically has a Fire-type resistance thanks to Water Bubble. Will it be the best thing ever? No, probably not. But it hasn't been discussed much and it's super cool!


What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
So what I learned from this thread is that 90% of the new mons are gonna be shit because of broken diglett and goth ? that's lame.
They aren't going to be shit, but they won't be super good. Its similar to how Skrelp is right now, weak to both trappers, but can still get away with it due to its raw power and ability to check fighting types.
Issue with running LO on Dewpider IMO is it's just too slow and doesn't have enough bulk. It also reaches just 13 Spe with a + nature so Scarf sets aren't fast enough. Probably best to just use it with Eviolite, since it can get some serious bulk that way. In a way I see it as kind of like Cranidos, although arguably it has a better defensive typing. It's just a complete shame that it doesn't get anything for support moves. This could have made for a great Sticky Web user.

I think Salandit will be similar to Houndour. Both are frail, have weaknesses to common moves in the tier. Houndour has slightly better SpA and Atk, as well as STAB Sucker Punch but Salandit does get Fake Out and Knock Off. But Houndour doesn't get completely boned by Gothita. Interested to see how Salandit fares.


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there is so much bad in this thread, lemme do some cleaning up

- Coconut, agreeing with goao, i have no idea how salandit will be c-, or d ranking. 18 speed, access to np, and having some great offensive STABs, hell i'm gonna abuse the shit out of this thing.

- coconut as well as everyone else should stop dismissing mons or glorifying them simply depending on if they get trapped or not. there are plenty of lc mons that get trapped who are dominant, and you have to remember diglett / goth aren't very keen on switching into things.

- all this rufflet hype when pikipek as well as buffed doduo look as if they will do the whole "hard-hitting bird" thing much better...

- any hype on mudbray aside from maybe a resttalk set is not really warranted imo. in a metagame defined somewhere between the extreme importance of speed and how sustainable a mon is, mudbray is just left in the middle. drilbur is faster, and has access to spin, sr, and swords dance, making it much more beneficial for a team. hippopotas can set sand, sr, and has reliable recovery. idk like i said i don't see the point in running this unless resttalk, which admittedly might be a bitch for physical attackers to break due to stamina.

- rssp1 any mention of diglett keeping an lc mon from being broken is, first of all, not true, and second of all dumb. end of story.

- wishes thank you for bringing some insight into this thread. dewpider actually looks legit, that ability is crazy good (double water damage, no burns, halved fire damage) and the typing is cool. i rly only see the need to run liquidation + leech life, everything beyond that will be filler. resttalk maybe.
Yo guys. Doduo getting SD is pretty much as relevant as Bunnelby getting SD. Yea it sounds awesome to literally do 200% damage to every Pokemon but in reality 1) you don't need it to 2HKO practically everything (ie. same as doing SD + move) by spamming Brave Bird. 2) you'll have essentially no time to set up anyway.

Also guys, Doduo getting Jump Kick is not a big deal. HP Fight takes care of Pawniard. It may be useful for shit like Omanyte and Magnemite, true, but it's not like they can switch in easily in the first place either.

It never really needed more firepower. It just needed more longevity which it didn't get.

I also think Pikipek is going to have a hard time with Speed. 17 Speed is juts so fucking annoying to deal with in this metagame you really only have 50% to force many of the common Pokemon out and for pawniard it's going to get it's ass kicked by Sucker Punch.

I'm gonna use Fletchling still and see how bad it really is. How hard can it be to Defog and just check Pawniard? There's so many viable checks.

Corporal Levi

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I know the game's coming out, but the first few weeks are probably going to involve a lot of theorymon before a metagame is developed anyways.

- agreeing with coco, I don't understand the hype around NP Salandit when it has nothing that makes for a good setup sweeper in an offensive meta similar to ours. In a meta where almost every team has a scarfer and a strong priority user, often water-type, every single successful sweeper has one of three things to get around would-be revenge-killers and actually threaten the opponent: strong priority or + Speed to outspeed offensive threats (most sweepers), huge bulk to tank through offensive threats (Timburr, Spritzee), or not needing to set up to begin with (Carvanha, LO Torchic, Snivy). Salandit has none of these advantages. What Salandit does have is huge competition from Gastly as an offensive Poison-type, which, while unable to set up Nasty Plot, is immediately stronger and has three useful immunities.

- I agree that trappers alone won't be enough to shut something down, but in conjunction with its other drawbacks, Salandit is certainly hampered.

- I agree that Doduo will somewhat overshadow Rufflet, except for Scarf and bulky setup sets. I do not agree that Pikipek will overshadow Rufflet. I do not think that Pikipek will overshadow anything; in fact, I think that Rufflet will overshadow Pikipek. Rufflet is one point slower, so it is unable to attempt to speed tie against fast Mienfoo. In exchange, Rufflet is much stronger and bulkier, so I imagine it would be just as effective as a wallbreaker and significantly better at every other role.

- I think a comparison between Mudbray and Drilbur is similar to a comparison between Skrelp and Tentacool - one has utility and good speed, the other has bulk and power. Of course it's not the exact same scenario because the difference in power between Mudbray and Drilbur is almost negligible, but I think that Mudbray's stats will be enough to differentiate it. Other Pokemon that are quite good though not great because of their stats, despite lacking reliable recovery, would be Snubbull and Munchlax. I do agree that RestTalk would be its best set unless you need to beat Ferroseed, though, since it can't do much else.

- Dewpider could make for a fun bulky attacker with Liquidation or Scald since it has pretty good defensive typing, probably Scald because Dewpider's Atk and SpA are the same (unlike Araquanid). Unfortunately, its Leech Life isn't very strong even after the buff because its offensive stats are quite low.

e: apparently Dark-types are immune to Prankster stuff now. Scraggy now has a much easier time handling two of its biggest checks in Fletchling and Cottonee. Cutiefly and Morellul don't fare well against Poison Jab, and Mienfoo/Timburr have always been somewhat flimsy checks. I know a few of us had theorymonned a decrease in Spritzee/Snubbull due to competition with Cutiefly and a bunch of new Poison-types, but it looks like that may not be the case
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fuzzy-chan \(ㆁヮㆁ✿)
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Alolan Diglett loses Arena Trap in Gen 7, replaced with the Tangling Hair ability fyi. Therefore, I believe Salandit would definitely warrant a ranking around B to A- (unless something happens). So the only relevant trapper would be Gothita in S/M.

Not sure if regular Diglett will be available for Sun and Moon though...

The Avalanches

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Alolan Diglett loses Arena Trap in Gen 7, replaced with the Tangling Hair ability fyi. Therefore, I believe Salandit would definitely warrant a ranking around B to A- (unless something happens). So the only relevant trapper would be Gothita in S/M.

Not sure if regular Diglett will be available for Sun and Moon though...
Once transfer is available from Gen VI, yeah it will.
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