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Sun & Moon NU Analysis Discussion
- Thread starter Hootie
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Can someone here update my Turtonator analysis to remove Drapion and Aurora Veil mentions?
Hi, I think the Whimsicott overview is misleading because it talks about how great Prankster and status moves are on Whimsicott even though specs is the best set (and first set) on the analysis. IMO it should talk about how Whims is a great wall breaker instead of utility and pivot. Just thought I should point it out here 
As the writer of ^ I'd like to say that analysis as a whole is already kinda outdated and had most of the actual writing done when pivot was still above specs (set order was swapped between GP checks 1 and 2 iirc). Things that I think should change:
name: Offensive
move 1: Moonblast
move 2: Energy Ball / Grass Knot
move 3: Psychic
move 4: Switcheroo / Hidden Power [Ground]
ability: Infiltrator
item: Choice Specs / Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
ivs: 0 Atk
w/ Prankster+TWind/Memento/Encore in moves/set details
- Rewrite overview; beef up detail about offensive/defensive utility a bit (w/o removing too much emphasis from the point wrt it being somewhat weak, 'cause at the end of the day 77 is still very lacking and it is very reliant on hitting stuff neutrally/SE as it switches into when breaking stuff rather than outright 1v1ing most neutral targets w/ at least a decent amount of bulk) and lessen emphasis on utility options without removing them totally. Maybe mention how it has difficulty due to being setup bait for Delphox (most dangerous mon in tier IMO) in there too.
- Bump pivot down to OO 'cause that set is legit trash
- Change Specs set to this:
name: Offensive
move 1: Moonblast
move 2: Energy Ball / Grass Knot
move 3: Psychic
move 4: Switcheroo / Hidden Power [Ground]
ability: Infiltrator
item: Choice Specs / Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
ivs: 0 Atk
w/ Prankster+TWind/Memento/Encore in moves/set details
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hey guys, instead of actually qc'ing stuff, I decided to roll through the currently uploaded nu analyses to see if there was anything that was worth changing. I removed barb mentions along the way as I saw them
Raticate-Alola:
Raticate-Alola:
- Slash Quick Attack after Sucker
- Replace all mentions of Aromatisse with the far more relevant Mega Audino
- evs: 244 HP / 136 Atk / 128 SpD lul
- it should be 244 hp / 252 atk / 12 spd. the spd doesn't do anything. a more specially defensive spread should be mentioned in oo to handle whims, but noted that it's passive and exploitable
- Special w/ Life Orb should be mentioned in oo to bait xatu too
- let's just revamp this. despite getting uploaded just under a month ago, it comes across as extremely dated.
- I get that there's merit in having as many options explored as possible, but z-sunny day and grassium are almost strictly unviable because they're outclassed and shouldn't be mentioned.
- this mon is shit and I don't think we should be obligated to keep analyses for Pokemon that are unviabe but here we are.
- idk if I skipped any mons to get here lol
- we talked about it in the nu qc channel, but the focus on the overview should be on whimsicott's threatening offensive presence because fairies are broken.
- Psychic should be a mandatory slash.
- grass knot mention in oo
- omfg there's no life orb mention
- pixie plate is ass cheeks and I stand by that.
- sub seed is actually ridiculously good. I would vouch for it to get its own set if we're including ass sets like pixie plate.
- "A physically defensive EV spread alongside a utility-oriented moveset can provide a slow U-turn and increases Whimsicott's flexibility as a pure support Pokemon, but missing out on the Speed benchmarks that running maximum Speed investment allows for is not ideal" wtf is this shit in oo
- imo let's add sets for life orb/sub seed, move pixie plate to oo, and make some touch ups.
- ofc eternally has to make a mention of manectric
- this still has drap mentions lol. idk about anything specific that could be done here other than emphasize more how this mon's ass. probably just needs more careful attention than me skimming through it.
- this could use some touching up. I think the meta has been rather unkind to rhydon.
- It needs stone edge to deal with xatu which means that roar needs a slash so that it doesn't get stalled by brav
- It doesn't check the most relevant fires, delphox and emboar.
- it doesn't beat all of the normals like steelix does.
- pilo is a direct comparison in terms of "pokemon that can beat xatu" but pilo actually beats all of the pokemon it's supposed to beat.
- offensive should be first set
- Roar > Dragon taill too btw since I saw it mentioned in oo
- "lures" in checks and counters seem intuitive, but it also just lists common sets for each example so it should probably just get axed.
- idk there might be more but I got bored of reading
- some tiny touch ups I can see that I can probably change on my own
- max max bold is probably best so you check emboar as best as you can
- maybe revamp this? idk
I agree with everything in Disjunctions’s post (apart from Pyuku revamp ‘cause honesrly I think changes are small enough to not warrant a full rewrite). One thing I’d say abt Pyuk is that the Mental Herb mention in OO should be replaced with Poisonium Z because realistically speaking it is more flexible when faced with Taunt users and provides more utility than just circumventing Taunt (maybe even slash it w/ lefties ‘cause that shit’s good). Not sure if that comes under minor touch-ups or w/e but thought I might as well say it.
Also re “idt we should be obligated” afaik there isn’t any obligation to do so; OU doesn’t write analyses for shit like Staraptor so idk why Clay/Hitmontop should be any different, although I may be wrong given Staraptor is BL and Clay/Top are technically NU by usage.
Guess I’ll comment on smth else too
Delphox:
I think that the sentence should be more along the lines of something like this: “Grassium Z is also an option that allows Delphox to lure and remove a number of bulky Water-types like Assault Vest Slowking and Pyukumuku while also allowing Delphox remove healthy Vaporeon, Slowbro, and Piloswine without taking a large amount of damage in the process.” It could do with fine-tuning because I only spent about 5 seconds thinking about how to write it, but I feel this is a much less misleading explanation of what Grassium-Z achieves while also highlighting the key perks of Bloom Doom a lot better than the current analysis does.
There might be other stuff in there but it’s approaching 1:30 AM and I really wanna sleep.
Also re “idt we should be obligated” afaik there isn’t any obligation to do so; OU doesn’t write analyses for shit like Staraptor so idk why Clay/Hitmontop should be any different, although I may be wrong given Staraptor is BL and Clay/Top are technically NU by usage.
Guess I’ll comment on smth else too
Delphox:
- Delphox should have shock slashed with Psychic on CM imo just because it’s the one I tend to default to for CM due to it allowing phox to win cm wars with Audino
- DGleam should get a moves mention on that set too for its ability to pwn Guzzlord.
- I really dislike Firium and think that Grassium is pretty much always better as it means that Phox can actually remove things like Pyuk/Slowking with some semblance of consistency while also allowing Phox to remove healthy Slowbro/Vaporeon without needing to take 50% from Scald in the process (and without needing to be in Blaze range to one-shot Bro).
- Even if you don’t slash Grassium (I have no major opinion wrt this but lean on the side of not doing so ‘cause Colbur is the choice of item 90% of the time anyway), I think you should deslash Firium considering that the perks of Colbur are already pretty hard to justify giving up anyway.
“Only slightly more effective against light water-types” is a huge understatement of the sheer power surge relative to regular Grass Knot/Psychic/Psyshock that both of these targets recieve, with damage more than doubling versus both relative to Psychic. The ability to OHKO Vapo at +1 (thus preserving Delphox’s health) is extremely useful when supporting Pokemon like Omastar etc. which seriously struggle when faced with this thing, and being able to KO Pyuku after Fire Blast damage (protecting it from Toxic and allowing it to leave stall teams under serious pressure if it isn’t weakened into range of shit like Sneasel’s KOff), and it also fails to factor in the improvements in matchups versus mons such as AV Slowking (absolute biggest target of Bloom Doom), which goes from being a major threat to Delphox to being OHKOed by +1 Phox after SR+1 Spike due to the fact that GK is actively doubling in power. Idk what the intended meaning of that sentence is, but the wording makes it read as tho it is implying that it is only a very minor power increase over what Delphox would otherwise deal despite the fact that the power is actively doubling (or more) versus basically all of the move’s intended targets and plays down how dramatic an effect it has on how you are able to play around Phox defensively when you don’t have shit like Guzzlord/Incineroar/Pursuit Doom in the back.
I think that the sentence should be more along the lines of something like this: “Grassium Z is also an option that allows Delphox to lure and remove a number of bulky Water-types like Assault Vest Slowking and Pyukumuku while also allowing Delphox remove healthy Vaporeon, Slowbro, and Piloswine without taking a large amount of damage in the process.” It could do with fine-tuning because I only spent about 5 seconds thinking about how to write it, but I feel this is a much less misleading explanation of what Grassium-Z achieves while also highlighting the key perks of Bloom Doom a lot better than the current analysis does.
There might be other stuff in there but it’s approaching 1:30 AM and I really wanna sleep.
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Hi, got a few suggestions for things. I technically could CMS some of them but I don’t wanna CMS ‘cuz they r technically subjective edits (that and I’m on tablet and as such can’t CMS ‘em due to issues w/ scrolling in the editor) but they shouldn’t be rlly controversial so it’s w/e
CMS stuff
Xatu: Protect should be added to the moves section as an alternative to U-turn to help the matchup vs Sneasel on bulkier builds. I meant to add this when I was writing up the analysis and I just ended up forgetting to do it lol.
Pyuku: remove Mental Herb from, OO and set should be changed to this imo:
name: Unaware Wall
move 1: Recover
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Soak
move 4: Block
item: Shed Shell
ability: Unaware
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Bold
ivs: 0 Atk
Moves mentions: Counter, Protect
Set details mentions: Leftovers, Poisonium Z
Rozes explains why Shed Shell is basically mandatory on block pyuku in meta discussion (+ i can confirm it’s rlly important ‘cuz I like stall), and block is just way better than its other options in this meta due to how it improves MUs vs teams w/ multiple type-based tox immunities. A few things would need rewording and “multiple toxic immunities” should be removed from checks/counters and anywhere else it’s mentioned (can’t remember off of top of my head) when you do this, but ultimately it’d just be a touch-up job.
Cryogonal: Slash Defog w/ Spin
Slowbro: Add Eject Button to OO ‘cuz it’s a pretty reliable option when paired with complementary ‘mons like Scyther etc. while also allowing for easy abuse of locks from Emboar by resists that don’t appreciate eating wild/blitz/spower.
Non-CMS stuff
Omastar: Shell Smash 100% deserves a set on this thing. It’s p. consistent w/ complementary lures, granted it still ain’t Barb-level insane.
Ambipom: this should get an analysis w/ Sir Kay’s Pursuit set (LO Fake Out+Return+Pursuit+U-turn)
CMS stuff
Xatu: Protect should be added to the moves section as an alternative to U-turn to help the matchup vs Sneasel on bulkier builds. I meant to add this when I was writing up the analysis and I just ended up forgetting to do it lol.
Pyuku: remove Mental Herb from, OO and set should be changed to this imo:
name: Unaware Wall
move 1: Recover
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Soak
move 4: Block
item: Shed Shell
ability: Unaware
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Bold
ivs: 0 Atk
Moves mentions: Counter, Protect
Set details mentions: Leftovers, Poisonium Z
Rozes explains why Shed Shell is basically mandatory on block pyuku in meta discussion (+ i can confirm it’s rlly important ‘cuz I like stall), and block is just way better than its other options in this meta due to how it improves MUs vs teams w/ multiple type-based tox immunities. A few things would need rewording and “multiple toxic immunities” should be removed from checks/counters and anywhere else it’s mentioned (can’t remember off of top of my head) when you do this, but ultimately it’d just be a touch-up job.
Cryogonal: Slash Defog w/ Spin
Slowbro: Add Eject Button to OO ‘cuz it’s a pretty reliable option when paired with complementary ‘mons like Scyther etc. while also allowing for easy abuse of locks from Emboar by resists that don’t appreciate eating wild/blitz/spower.
Non-CMS stuff
Omastar: Shell Smash 100% deserves a set on this thing. It’s p. consistent w/ complementary lures, granted it still ain’t Barb-level insane.
Ambipom: this should get an analysis w/ Sir Kay’s Pursuit set (LO Fake Out+Return+Pursuit+U-turn)
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Hi, I'm up pretty late but I'm also teambuilding so ya know, grind n all. Anyhow, I just wanted to make a few comments (non specific so don't @ me) but here I go (Also I understand a person can only do so much so I'll delegate priority to whomever would be working on this stuff but I'll asterisk ones I feel are important)
1) *What Modulo said, give Incineroar a revamp, please!*
2) *I understand most people don't use accelgor but it OHKO's 2 S rank pokemon and outspeeds them so like, I feel like something, anything, should be written about its analysis*
3) I stand by this even if Quziel disagrees: AV Clawitzer needs a reference in OO, its so solid like you don't understand.
4) *Analysis for Heliolisk, especially checks/counters would be nice*
5) Why does Jellicent have UU and RU mentions but no NU mentions?
6) Can someone add the defensive bulk up set for Scrafty?
7) Special Lix
8) *Toxicroak/Special Toxicroak (there's no designated NU set)*
I'm gonna consider this a part one cuz I'm really tired but I'll come back with a part 2 tomorrow cause I really enjoy the analysis on the Smogon Pokedex and its a little frustrating teambuilding with outdated sets or ones that aren't even up. TY and have a nice day :)
1) *What Modulo said, give Incineroar a revamp, please!*
2) *I understand most people don't use accelgor but it OHKO's 2 S rank pokemon and outspeeds them so like, I feel like something, anything, should be written about its analysis*
3) I stand by this even if Quziel disagrees: AV Clawitzer needs a reference in OO, its so solid like you don't understand.
4) *Analysis for Heliolisk, especially checks/counters would be nice*
5) Why does Jellicent have UU and RU mentions but no NU mentions?
6) Can someone add the defensive bulk up set for Scrafty?
7) Special Lix
8) *Toxicroak/Special Toxicroak (there's no designated NU set)*
I'm gonna consider this a part one cuz I'm really tired but I'll come back with a part 2 tomorrow cause I really enjoy the analysis on the Smogon Pokedex and its a little frustrating teambuilding with outdated sets or ones that aren't even up. TY and have a nice day :)
Not QC, but can address some concerns.
Accelgor is currently being worked on, and as are Toxicroak and Heliolisk. They will take time to be published.
About Jellicent, it's not super good atm. (At least, from what I've heard.)
QC team is more than likely considering Incineroar revamp atm.
Yo, just wanted to say thanks, I'm still exploring the forums (though I've been a long-time showdown fan) so I might say some stuff in the incorrect threads n junk but its super awesome that people respond nicely instead of getting frustrated that I'm a noob :)
Incineroar was just given its hidden ability Intimidate. I know it’s sudden and we’d need time to see how it works out with the mon, but just thought I’d let you all know.
"Lures: Rhydon's 4x weaknesses to Grass- and Water-type attacks make it a very easy target to lure with coverage moves. Pokemon such as Grass Knot Delphox, Energy Ball Sigilyph, and Bloom Doom Rotom-C are all examples of effective and somewhat common lures for Rhydon." hi can i ask in what world a grass type lures rhydon
It lured bc people saw Rotom-C use Thunderbolt and tended to think 'Oh, it's Choice-locked.' Also, iirc, Protect was common on Rhydon before, which could be used to bait Choiced variants.
ah okay, that should be changed though right? analysis recommends fat berry or z now. also, on a side note, why can't i find rotom mow / rotom cut in nus usage stats? rotom frost and fan are there but when i try ctrl f rotom-c, rotom-m, or even just the words cut and mow i cant see it anywhere.
ah that would explain it, so the analysis should definitely change then lol
I would like to summarize here the mons who have not yet NU analysis (most are being written): Quagsire, Miltank, Sceptile, Torterra, Jellicent, Decidueye, Comfee and Silvally-Steel
We also have viables PUBL: Kingler and Gallade
Then we have some viable mons PUs (presents in the VRs) and who have not yet NU analysis: Sandslash-Alola, Clefairy, Haunter, Kabutops, Articuno, Regice, Lycanroc and Togedemaru
We have NU/PUBL that are not viable (an analysis is not necessary): Charizard (who already has his analysis), Sandslash, Tauros, Typhlosion (same thing), Hitmontop, Ambipom, Stoutland, Sawk (same thing), Archeops and Minior (same thing)
But in the contrary, some PU mons already have an analysis but are no longer viable in NU (absence in the VRs): Raticate-Alola, Granbull, Claydol, Liepard, Gurdurr, Lilligant, Crustle, Aurorus, Gourgeist-Super, Oricorio and Lurantis
I can quibble to finish with the following unviable mons, which have just one moveset labeled "NU": Primeape, Kadabra, Electrode, Marowak, Jynx, Electivire, Gumshoos, Shiinotic and most of Silvallys
We also have viables PUBL: Kingler and Gallade
Then we have some viable mons PUs (presents in the VRs) and who have not yet NU analysis: Sandslash-Alola, Clefairy, Haunter, Kabutops, Articuno, Regice, Lycanroc and Togedemaru
We have NU/PUBL that are not viable (an analysis is not necessary): Charizard (who already has his analysis), Sandslash, Tauros, Typhlosion (same thing), Hitmontop, Ambipom, Stoutland, Sawk (same thing), Archeops and Minior (same thing)
But in the contrary, some PU mons already have an analysis but are no longer viable in NU (absence in the VRs): Raticate-Alola, Granbull, Claydol, Liepard, Gurdurr, Lilligant, Crustle, Aurorus, Gourgeist-Super, Oricorio and Lurantis
I can quibble to finish with the following unviable mons, which have just one moveset labeled "NU": Primeape, Kadabra, Electrode, Marowak, Jynx, Electivire, Gumshoos, Shiinotic and most of Silvallys
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Are there any plans of giving Archeops, Typhlosion, Sawk, and Tauros pseudo-analysis like OU and UU are doing for their unviable BLs or no?
To quote eternally: "if it's not ranked on the VR, it's not getting an analysis."
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/minior/nu/
This should probably get a revamp as a mini-analysis since Minior recently got the boot from PU. And it mentions Barb and Emboar.
This should probably get a revamp as a mini-analysis since Minior recently got the boot from PU. And it mentions Barb and Emboar.
I'm sure these are being worked on, but I wanted to bring them up anyway:
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/garbodor/This analysis still has mentions of Vanilluxe on these lines:
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/exeggutor-alola/This analysis also has mentions of Vanilluxe:
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/garbodor/This analysis still has mentions of Vanilluxe on these lines:
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/exeggutor-alola/This analysis also has mentions of Vanilluxe:
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