Resource SV BSS Viability Rankings (Regulation H)

[Photon]

Hello everyone! As Psynergy mentioned, the current ranking list was drafted by yours truly. There are way too many changes for me to go over them all individually, but there are some highlights I definitely want to give some attention to.

Archaludon getting ranked at S-

New "Big 6" material for sure. There are a lot of things that make it good, but the main one to zero in on in my opinion is that its a Sturdy user that isn't OHKO'd by Sash killer Urshifu. Its a powerful psuedo-Sash mon that still gets to use an item. What this means is that we have a highly versatile, Steel- and Dragon-type behemoth with set variety for days. Nearly every top 10 threat has a counter strategy when it comes to Archaludon, and that's what makes it so dangerous. In the hands of a competent player, you often don't know that you've been countered until its too late.

I don't see this thing as a fad. Archaludon is going to be a mainstay for the foreseeable future.

Psychic Terrain Sweepers in A-

Psynergy touched on this one too, but I think a big reason they belong is because they both have variety inside and outside of Psychic Terrain too. Remember: set variety is a big part of viability! I'm not convinced these ones will stay mainstream like Archaludon, but for now they've shown results befitting of an A tier appearance.

*** Flooded Rankings and rethinking B/C ranks ***

The Indigo Disk brought a lot of new viable mons! Not only were the rankings vastly different than what we predicted in some areas, but the number of new mons to rank increased substantially. Another complication with drafting this list up was that usage ratings were inconsistent with some mon's viabilities. A particular mon could be top 50 in usage and yet have absolutely nothing in terms of competitive finishes. And I mean literally nothing. While this is not impossible, its highly unusual to see so many mons with consistent usage and yet have crickets for nearly any kind of meaningful research data.

So with that in mind, I'm going to go through my mentality for the restructure.

B+ Rank

One of the things I really tried to hone in on this time was the question of, "Does it have an established niche?" Mons like Annihilape, Garchomp and Iron Hands were all mainstays at one point and have surged in and out with the metagame tides. Spore Breloom and SubStall Gliscor are the kinds of mons that have accessible counterplay but will mess up your day if you get careless. I tried to stick with mons that had one of those proven "preview dominating" factors.

B Rank

Moving down here, this is where we see some middle-ground mons as well as ones that just don't have that same "preview effect" as above. Take for example the surge of priority moves and Speed Booster Energy this gen: on paper, Speed Boost Blaziken and naturally speedy Dragapult could be really strong, but metagame trends have crushed that advantage. Dondozo is another prime example, where its more passive nature is being more easily capitalized on by an aggressive breaker-heavy meta. The list goes on.

You also have mons like Metagross and Meowscarada here. These are mons with top 50 usage rankings but almost no competitive results to speak of. So while I think its hard to ignore that someone is using them, its clear that there may be some "popularity effect" contributing here. But as far as calling them "usable" is concerned, I can point to Toxic Spikes Meowscarada and Bullet Punch Metagross and call those somewhat viable sets. They have higher ranked contemporaries in Toxic Spikes Sneasler and Bullet Punch Scizor, so that makes a big difference in saying they have at least some theoretical value to match their usage.

Balancing B- Rank and C+ Rank

Truth be told, I think drawing the line between B- and C+ was a lot easier this time around. With so many new toys running around, the viability curve from rank to rank is quite a bit smoother than it was in Reg E. It felt like I could actually make a reasonable jump from B- to C+ without feeling like I was running off a viability cliff.

I again tried to focus on established niches with usage as something of a guiding factor, but that still left a lot on the table. What I looked at next then was who had at least one top 100 finish. I would use this to shift between the ranks while still paying attention to not make dramatic usage bumps off of a single top result. Excadrill, for example, is a newer mon that has underperformed but still managed to see its Sand Rush niche just barely stake a claim in top 100. So, I let it chill in B- rather than bump it down. Palafin is another mon that had a top 100 finish, but it was all the way down in C-, so I went with a conservative placement in C+. Is it possible the two of them should be flipped? Sure, but I think there is value in trying to preserve some integrity in the opinion of the council collective, especially when it comes to lower usage mons like this. We can always reevaluate.

Perhaps the one mon that kinda came out of nowhere was Hydrapple. It went from UR to B- alongside Alomomola (previously C+.) The big reason for this is not only because it had a top 100 finish, but because it skyrocketed into the top 50 usage this past month. That's a huge jump and, while it may not last, I have felt for a little bit now that Alomomola has also been slightly underranked based on its own established (albeit less-used) niche against physical attackers. Since Alomomola and Hydrapple were a defensive core together in the 4th place ranked team, I felt that was significant justification to move it to B- despite still needing more mileage to really prove it staying power.

*** C Rank General and where to go from here ***

So as we get down into the lower end of the viability rankings, let me reiterate the metrics I used to shake things out:

• Established niche (related to previous viability)
• Competitive finishes (top 100, top 1000, etc.)
• General usage

I'd argue that the first two are pretty close in terms of importance, with general usage being a good balancing point for when the first two aren't crystal clear.

For example, what about Politoed? That saw a top 100 finish, but it isn't ranked. Well, Politoed has been around for several months now and hasn't really established itself. For example, it has Perish Song, but its utilization of that isn't comparable enough to Flutter Mane's usage of it. In short, its a ranking decision that I think you let lie. Its overall usage simply isn't high enough, and there's not enough data to really warrant doing anything with it. If it would've been C-, then I would've kept it C-. But since it is UR, I am letting it stay UR.

I think this holds true especially as we head into Reg F and beyond simply because we have so many good mons vying for competitive usage, but I think raising the bar helps make it a little bit clearer what belongs in B, C, and UR.

************

And that's about it! Feel free to ask about anything I didn't go over here. It will be interesting to see how things continue to shift!

 

[DerpySuX]

Personally I think just a singular high ladder finish isn’t sufficient to just rank something. Especially when there’s players out there that use “pet mons” and just bench them for like 99% of games. This is what leads to us ranking stuff that realistically has no real metagame niche and clogging up the lower ranks.

If someone places well with something we can watch it and if it catches on then sure, we can rank that, but I’m not a big fan of the thought process of “oh this person did well with random mon, let’s rank it!”

Imo our goal with resources such as this should be to provide an understandable and digestible starting point for new and less experienced players. Clogging up the ranks with mons that a handful of top level players use for whatever reasons they have not only leads to the ranks being rather messy at times, but it can also give less experienced players the impression that something is good when it’s really not on most builds.

The ranking criteria for C tier itself is rather clear on what we are supposed to be putting in there too

the only real questions we should be asking here is “does this mon perform a role that isn’t exactly replicable otherwise done better by something higher on the ranks?” and “is said role worth investing in for some team comps?”

if the answer to these questions is yes, then sure rank it. But again, just because someone got a high ladder finish with something doesn’t inherently mean that these criteria are met.

 

[Omastar68]

I agree we have to consider how much something is benched. If the user(s) of rare mons don't tell that in their write up, if any, can only go off usage.

 

[DerpySuX]

You will not be able to convince anyone who knows anything about bss that frosmoth is a+ in viability, for one.

Secondly, these long posts are exactly what you’re claiming they prevent: a discussion. If you want to make a case for something you should back it up with evidence that supports your opinion. If I just say “this is good, it has good matchups against this and that and whatever,” that isn’t a compelling argument. Let’s take frosmoth as an example.

Sure, it has a fairly ok matchup vs spa mons like bundle and flutter, that’s good, however

It is ripped up by entry hazards, taking half of its HP from stealth rock ALONE, necessitating the use of your boots slot if you want it to have any real longevity. It lacks recovery outside of Giga Drain, which is heavily exploitable and does not provide good coverage alongside your STAB options, and it’s movepool is rather limited, necessitating the use of your teams Tera in order to be able to threaten certain pokes.

This is NOT indicative of an A+ ranked mon, it’s very specific, demands not only the use of a highly valuable item but also that you save your Tera for it, and even then it’s not highly likely that it’ll do much. This all needs to be considered when you talk about the viability of something. Pokémon isn’t played statically with ideal conditions for everything. Being able to adapt and otherwise be versatile is a big deal, and a mon that needs ideal conditions and/or hogs valuable item slots or tera to maybe work is not versatile or adaptable.

 

[Omastar68]

You will not be able to convince anyone who knows anything about bss that frosmoth is a+ in viability, for one.

Secondly, these long posts are exactly what you’re claiming they prevent: a discussion. If you want to make a case for something you should back it up with evidence that supports your opinion. If I just say “this is good, it has good matchups against this and that and whatever,” that isn’t a compelling argument. Let’s take frosmoth as an example.

Sure, it has a fairly ok matchup vs spa mons like bundle and flutter, that’s good, however

It is ripped up by entry hazards, taking half of its HP from stealth rock ALONE, necessitating the use of your boots slot if you want it to have any real longevity. It lacks recovery outside of Giga Drain, which is heavily exploitable and does not provide good coverage alongside your STAB options, and it’s movepool is rather limited, necessitating the use of your teams Tera in order to be able to threaten certain pokes.

This is NOT indicative of an A+ ranked mon, it’s very specific, demands not only the use of a highly valuable item but also that you save your Tera for it, and even then it’s not highly likely that it’ll do much. This all needs to be considered when you talk about the viability of something. Pokémon isn’t played statically with ideal conditions for everything. Being able to adapt and otherwise be versatile is a big deal, and a mon that needs ideal conditions and/or hogs valuable item slots or tera to maybe work is not versatile or adaptable.

Even I agree with this tbf, except maybe that HDB are highly valuable(they could be here, but in general idk.)

The rocks point is valid, I often lead and Tera, so if yawn cycles start at least I'm then a rock resist. But if you DON'T lead it's big trouble, same if you don't Tera. Some of frosmoth's good mus aren't going to require Tera usually/ever(bundle, Luna bm,) but more need Tera(flutter usually, chi yu, heatran, etc.) finally, moth often will seem like it has to Tera, only to have them NOT have the coverage to make that justifiable, or they randomly switch. So while I don't think C ish rank is absurd, even B is pushing it. And A+ is kinda absurd, even if I like the thought a lot LOL.

Seriously, gl with frosmoth, but support it well. There are holes in coverage without Tera, and lopsided def(yes flutter, except they are fast.) Basically frosmoth just suffers from being too slow imo, you can OFTEN expect an offensive Mon to be weak somewhere defensively, so that alone wouldn't disqualify my fave moth if it was fast.

 

[Photon]

Personally I think just a singular high ladder finish isn’t sufficient to just rank something. Especially when there’s players out there that use “pet mons” and just bench them for like 99% of games. This is what leads to us ranking stuff that realistically has no real metagame niche and clogging up the lower ranks.

If someone places well with something we can watch it and if it catches on then sure, we can rank that, but I’m not a big fan of the thought process of “oh this person did well with random mon, let’s rank it!”

Imo our goal with resources such as this should be to provide an understandable and digestible starting point for new and less experienced players. Clogging up the ranks with mons that a handful of top level players use for whatever reasons they have not only leads to the ranks being rather messy at times, but it can also give less experienced players the impression that something is good when it’s really not on most builds.

The ranking criteria for C tier itself is rather clear on what we are supposed to be putting in there too

View attachment 606150
the only real questions we should be asking here is “does this mon perform a role that isn’t exactly replicable otherwise done better by something higher on the ranks?” and “is said role worth investing in for some team comps?”

if the answer to these questions is yes, then sure rank it. But again, just because someone got a high ladder finish with something doesn’t inherently mean that these criteria are met.

Regarding how to place things in different ranks: the biggest issue I've personally observed with past regs (even back to gen 8) is that the pool of "good" mons is actually much lower than the number of things ranked. I feel like there were lots of times where you get down to B or maybe B- and you're already scraping the bottom of the barrel on what could be considered "viable." It feels like sometimes, in practice, we end up with a "100-mon" pedestal that reflects a gradual (and quickly declining) viability curve that doesn't necessarily fit the tier descriptions.

This is why I brought up, "It was easier to make a distinction between B- and C+" as part of my explanation, for example. The increased pool of viable mons has lifted all sails in some ways. On the other hand, I also remarked on Discord how I felt that more cuts would not be unreasonable.

In that regard, I can agree with trying to cut down C Rank placing, or rather narrowing down to an overall smaller pool that we then can more precisely rank. I'd be behind being more judicious in how many things we rank, at least after the initial month of a new regulation.

 

[Theorymon]

I'd like to add some more to what derpy said too, and as someone who does in fact, use the VR list despite being pretty in-tune with the metagame!

What Do I Think Is The Point Of Viability Rankings?

I like to view Viability Rankings as a sort of "Metagame Snapshot". A list you can look at and get a decent feel for where the metagame is at, and what to prepare for. Look at say, analyses of ours that have been updated for Regulation F (we got a lot of em now!), or Japanese team reports. Notice how MANY of these things say stuff like "this EV spread is for surviving Timid Choice Specs Flutter Mane's Moonblast" or "this survives Adamant Tera Water Urshifu-R's Surging Strikes" or stuff like "this outspeeds Iron Bundle after Dragon Dance", or even "this OHKOes offensive Flutter Mane"? Notice how a lot of the time, the Pokemon mentioned in these EV spreads are often pretty high up in the viability rankings... it's because they're super dangerous and common Pokemon!

Of course these metagame snapshots aren't perfect, they're sorta like how statistics will lag a bit behind reality. For example, Raging Bolt had a MASSIVE usage surge late last month that Home usage barely caught, and something that mostly high rated players noticed. It took until this month for Raging Bolt to really establish itself everywhere on the ladder, so the VR rankings lagged in that respect.

Niche Pokemon In VR Lists

The part I always find the trickiest is figuring out where to put the more niche Pokemon: its not really an exact science, because most of these are not Pokemon you're gonna be crafting EV spreads for or using specific checks to defeat. There's really no objective way to say, why something like Pawmot deserves to be in C rank while Frosmoth doesn't: both are pretty low usage and have very little metagame impact. Of course, one of the ways to help with this is with exactly the kind of post DerpySuX made: by examining Frosmoth's pros and cons in the current metagame, and what justifies using it over other Pokemon! Some of it comes down to personal experience too: for example, I've reached a 2k rating with Pawmot twice (and almost got there a 3rd time last month before getting an awful stomach bug LOL), and felt like its unique attributes (mainly Revival Blessing) are why I reached those ratings.

That isn't the only tool available though, let's come back to that Pawmot versus Frosmoth example with something me and Photon like to do: examining high finishes for the Pokemon!

Here's Pawmot's high finishes, and Frosmoth's high finishes: Notice for Frosmoth, we only got two players actually getting it high ranked, while Pawmot has a bit more variety in people getting high finishes with it, and most notably, Pawmot got TWO different high finishes last season, compared to Frosmoth's 0 high finishes last season. Of course this also isn't perfect: for example, I never finished my team report on my Pawmot teams (I will some day..) so they aren't on that site lol. But still, this can be quite handy for trying to sort out what niche mons maybe deserve to be on the VR list!

What makes something like Politoed different than Hydrapple?

There's one more element I'd like to touch upon here, related to Photon bringing up Politoed. If VR lists are metagame snapshots... sometimes successful teams use some pretty weird Pokemon to get high ranking finishes. Sometimes they end up having a big impact. Like let's take a look at the # 4 team: This was based around Alomola, Hydrapple, and bulky Grimmsnarl working together on a cycle team, and it ended up having a BIG impact this season: Grimmsnarl, Alomomola, Hydrapple have all surged in usage, and it probably contributed to Gliscor too (though Gliscor was on a LOT of team reports last season lol).

However to get back to Politoed, let's look at the team it rated high with!

So right away, I think several of us know what the gimmick with Politoed is here: the player is using it with Eject Button and Palafin to get around Palafin's ability, and get it into a position to kick butt in the rain ASAP! To be clear I don't understand Japanese, so I have to rely on a machine translation here... but this team needs Politoed's unique attributes over Pelipper: the Ice resistance to take on Chien-Pao better, Encore to punish Dragonite for attemping set-up (though he regrets not using Tera Ghost on it lol), and enough bulk to often survive Blood Moon Ursaluna. See for most teams, Pelipper is the better choice because of U-turn, but THIS SPECIFIC team benefited more from Politoed.

To be clear, Politoed hasn't really caught on at all. Looking at its top placements, it's literally only got two of them despite being around since October. Sure, both times Politoed got pretty high placements... but it's not something you go out of your way to prepare for, nor is it a Pokemon with a really established niche like say, Pawmot's Revival Blessing, Espathra having Stored Power + Speed Boost, Araquanid being a bulky Webs setter, Ursaluna smashing through stall teams with Guts Facade, etc.

Politoed instead was a specific adaption on two teams that paid dividends. I think it illustrates a pretty beautiful aspect of Pokemon, how sometimes you need to dig REALLY deep into the toybox to find the exact game piece you need for your team to work! And to be clear, that's what I'm just saying for now. Who knows, maybe a team will REALLY crack the code for Politoed, and make its usage explode, just like what happened to Hydrapple in recent times!

But I don't think that means something like Politoed or Frosmoth or what have you fits a VR list. Again, we're trying to have a metagame snapshot here: the top threats, big threats, and niche but notable threats. I think putting stuff like Politoed or Frosmoth in the current metagame would be misleading here, because stuff like that are team specific adaptions rather than some sort of archetype or threat of sorts.

Conclusion

In the end, I really don't think a Viability Rankings thread is the place for these kinds of things. Putting Politoed on the thread wouldn't really help anyone other than saying "it placed high twice in this game's lifetime".

So for future reference, I think when figuring out VR lists and discussing stuff, we need to be looking more towards "what is this Pokemon's place in the metagame" rather than "hey its done well before!". Maybe we need to be making some sort of new type of way to examine the Politoeds of the game. I think even just Pokedb's lists of how many times a mon has gotten high rankings is really interesting itself, it paints stories like how teams adapt to the developing metagame in strange but successful ways!

But the Viability Rankings can't cover everything, if we cover every Pokemon that has ranked highly, we'd dillute the usefulness of this resource for beginners and veterans alike. So please, lets avoid bringing up stuff like Frosmoth constantly, both here and in other places, unless it actually makes sense for a given conversation, because I think hyping up stuff like Frosmoth is only going to mislead newcomers.

P. S.: this is not the post I planned for this thread lol, still working on that!

 

[Omastar68]

Wow everyone(mostly) is so thought out in their postings. I agree that's enough Fromsoth stuff. Really I didn't WANT that guy to nominate it for such an obscene rank, given that now talking more about it is like gonna be taboo xd. And I can't anyways cause, since early on, haven't done well really.

EDIT: Is it ok to ask why something is not viable/not considered viable? I've started running Snorlax, and given stats and all I'm curious why no one ever uses it.

 

[StarkGod]

Wow everyone(mostly) is so thought out in their postings. I agree that's enough Fromsoth stuff. Really I didn't WANT that guy to nominate it for such an obscene rank, given that now talking more about it is like gonna be taboo xd. And I can't anyways cause, since early on, haven't done well really.

EDIT: Is it ok to ask why something is not viable/not considered viable? I've started running Snorlax, and given stats and all I'm curious why no one ever uses it.

Not having reliable recovery outside of rest is a big one. It's main defensive ability is ignored by the main offensive threat it would otherwise help it check (ogerpon) and its a massive Tera hog in the face of the constant flow of drain punches and close combats going off due to all the urshifu. I'm not even sure if it can take bloodmoon 1v1 given moons access to healing.

It's just not good, sadly.

 

[Omastar68]

Ok thanks. That's really unfortunate given the stats and relative notoriety. Well, it may fit on my team but it's then another case of mega niche that doesn't fit here.

 

[DerpySuX]

Did you not just see multiple moderators tell you that this thread is NOT the place for teambuilding? This is your last warning to keep posts in here on topic.

 

[Photon]

In light of recent discussion here, I decided to give the tiers another pass. DerpySuX and Theorymon emphasizing the viability list as a "meta snapshot" as opposed to a "this could be good" kind of thing helped give me a little more focus to refine my original list farther.

Understandably, we are close to the month end and we will be getting some new report data to sift through here soon. These are tentative changes, and not ones I would expect to go through before the end of this season. Still, I think there is some discussion worth having here so I want to put them out into the open.

Here is the list of changes:

RISES

Mimikyu (Raise from B to B+)

DROPS

Excadrill (Drop from B- to C+)
Tinkaton (Drop from B- to C+)
Palafin (Drop from C+ to C)
Rotom-Wash (Drop from C+ to C)
Kleavor (Drop from C to C-)
Okidogi (Drop from C to C-)
Thundurus-Therian (Drop from C to C-)

NEW ADDITIONS

Skarmory (Rise from UR to C-)

CUTS/UNRANKED

Empoleon (Drop from C- to UR)
Greninja (Drop from C- to UR)
Hydreigon (Drop from C- to UR)
Rotom-Heat (Drop from C- to UR)

The main point of this pass is to further clean up the lower ranks. Outside of eliminating something for cannibalized viability (Rotom-Heat and Hydreigon being the main ones bullied out by their contemporaries,) I asked a question: "If someone asked me why I should look out for this mon, could I give them an answer?" In other words, is this mon all over the place in terms of its usage, or does it have legitimate "gothca!" potential that'll catch the unseasoned player? Has it stabilized around a particular niche that informs your decisions about it? Being able to spot such factors at preview is a key characteristic of a skilled player, so ranking and thus alerting new players to such mons leans into the "meta snapshot" aspect spoken about earlier.

For a full breakdown of why I placed things where I did, you can look here at a full rearranged B/C rank list with notes:

B and C Ranks + Notes

B tier:

These Pokemon have at least a few flaws that hold them back from being huge threats in this metagame, but they still have unique selling points that make them good picks for some teams.

B+ rank
Annihilape
Breloom
Garchomp
Gliscor
Incineroar
Iron Hands
Iron Moth
Latias
Mimikyu (Raised from B)
-- I feel like I never see this thing anymore, and yet report data tells me otherwise. Disguise is still broken, and its set variety remains astounding. Definitely an oversight on my part!
Rillaboom

B rank
Blaziken
Corviknight
Cresselia
Dondozo
Dragapult
Gouging Fire
Grimmsnarl
Indeedee
Metagross
Meowscarada
Suicune
Swampert
Torkoal

B- rank
Alomomola
Amoonguss
Avalugg
Blissey
Clodsire
Entei
Heatran
Hydrapple
Kingambit
Ogerpon-Teal Mask
Pelipper
Skeledirge
Volcarona


C tier:

These Pokemon are fairly niche, though not unviable. If your team uses one of these Pokemon, make sure your team needs their specific selling point, and isn't a job better done by more relevant Pokemon.

C+ rank
Arcanine-Hisui
Azumarill
Baxcalibur
Excadrill (Dropped from B-)
-- Oversold this thing before, even for B-. Sand Rush's Speed advantage outrunning up to Booster Energy Flutter Mane is still notable, but with so much priority running around its fairly easy to counter. Even with Tera, this thing is still frail.
Fezandipiti
Goodra-Hisui
Iron Valiant
Scream Tail
Tinkaton (Dropped from B-)
-- Also oversold this mon. Putting it back to where it was before.
Tyranitar
Ursaluna
Walking Wake
Wo-Chien
Zapdos

C rank
Araquanid
-- Basically the sole surviving Webs user. Aqua Bubble Liquidation hits stupid hard, and Mirror Coat lets it get some "sneaky" kills. Pretty predictable but it does what it does well enough to maintain some relevance.
Espathra
-- Beating Espathra shenanigans has become increasingly easier with the general power creep this generation. It still has the potential to do "Espathra things" though, so its unique combination of Stored Power + Speed Boost is still something certain teams have to be paying attention to.
Great Tusk
-- This thing has less S14 report data than its paradox cousin Iron Treads, and that is way lower in usage! Still, it seems to do what it did before and it does get Ice Spinner for that juicy Ground + Ice assault. Keeping it here in C for now.
Iron Treads
-- This addition to the tier list was Tmon's suggestion. Seems to have a niche as a Booster Energy attacker based on report data, especially since it gets Ice Spinner for the nice Ground + Ice combo. Despite its abysmal usage rating, its got some data! Seeing as it was just added, I'm going to defer on suggesting any raises/drops so we can see how the next month shakes out for it.
Magnezone
-- Poor Magnezone! Archaludon has pretty much completely usurped its Steel-type Sturdy niche... not that this thing had been doing well in the season leading up to this point. Nonetheless, a lot of its versatility still remains accessible even if much less used, and it does generally fare better in the Steel-type mirrors compared to Arch. Right in the middle of C feels about right.
Palafin (Dropped from C+)
-- Another oversell on my part. Hero Form + Jet Punch isn't what it used to be with so many good resists running around. C Rank seems fair, balancing its former niche against the meta trends.
Pawmot
-- Basically the sole viable user of the momentum tool Revival Blessing. That alone makes it worth talking about as long as it maintains some decent usage.
Rotom-Wash (Dropped from C+)
-- Ogerpon has really made its life miserable, and the trend of powerful Dragon-types continuing to emerge doesn't help either. Plus, there are better Levitate users out there now.

C- rank

Kleavor (Dropped from C)
-- Has always had the issue of being a Sash user that needs Tera to survive Urshifu-R. Stuck around in S13 a little but had no reported finishes in S14. Keeping it "barely" ranked just by virtue of it having its signature attack that sets Stealth Rock.
Kommo-o
-- Clangorous Soul sweeper. Little else has "Ancient Power effect on command" and it occasionally sees some report representation. Keeping it on the edge of the rankings.
Lucario
-- Life Orb priority sweeper. While not highly placed it is consistently the niche that shows up in what few reports there are. Keep ranked for sure.
Okidogi (Dropped from C)
-- Not common but it does appear stabilized around bulky Guard Dog sets (Drain Punch, Bulk Up / AV, etc.) Occasionally shows up in top 100 reports; top-level usage is inconsistent, but the fact remains it has stabilized move usage/strategy I can point to in a general sense. Worth keeping in mid/low C because of some unique interactions that are worth considering.
Sinistcha
-- Rocky Helmet + Strength Sap sets are the norm. While otherwise mediocre, its dunks on unboosted Urshifu-R and has a nice signature move. Stands out enough alongside a decent 74th usage rating to keep ranked.
Skarmory (Newly Ranked)
-- Skarmory's Rocks + Whirlwind set returns. While it isn't nearly the mainstay its been in the past, Skarmory can still really mess with physically-offensive lineups that take it forgranted with Roost + Helmet. Predictable but definitely something with enough of a presence to be worth a mention in my book.
Sylveon
-- Pixelate Hyper Voice bot, running both Assault Vest and Leftovers sets. The latter in particular is an established niche with tools such as Yawn and Quick Attack. Some unique traits combined with established sets make it worth mentioning, even if the more generalized niches (Yawn, priority, etc.) are overshadowed by higher ranked mons.
Thundurus-Therian (Dropped from C)
-- Choice attacker. Tera Flying sweeper is already a crowded role, but its a special attacking variant so it has that. For a niche mon its usage data is stabilized enough that its probably worth keeping ranked as barely viable.

Unranked

Empoleon
Recent Usage Rating : 84th
Report Data : Limited top 3-digit finishes in the few seasons
-- It being a Rocks + Yawn mon is what sticks out to me, but this combination is less than 40% usage. Assault Vest is what is actually most popular, but the last time that had a reported placement was once in S12. I'm of the opinion its too unstable, so to unranked it goes.

Greninja
Recent Usage Rating : 93rd
Report Data : Limited top 3-digit finishes in S13 and S10
-- Lacks competitive consistency. The one attribute that could make it worth the "C-Rank" warning is Toxic Spikes, but its sub-20% in usage.

Hydreigon
Recent Usage Rating : 87th
Report Data : No finishes reported since S11
-- Latitwins exist now for Dragon-type Levitate user that abuses Tera. Was given Stealth Rock this gen so there's that, but its less than 20% usage. I say its too inconsistent, so cut it.

Rotom-Heat
Recent Usage Rating : 100th
Report Data : No finishes reported since S11
-- Way too many other good Fire-types. Overheat being its only Fire STAB essentially relegates it to being dollar store Chi-Yu. If you want Levitate, Latitwins exist. If you want status or Helmet wall, you probably use Rotom-Wash instead. Established sets are not enough to save this from being unranked because of the sheer number of things pushing it out of its niches.

I mainly stuck to talking about C/C- justifications, as well as any ranking changes that occurred farther up. Let me know if further explanation is needed for anything!

 

[Photon]

Regulation F has been crazy y'all. I'm back with another HUGE round of suggested updates.

First some context: Regulation F trends have been absolutely wild. Even more so than last month, the viability of a mon can be very mismatched compared to what its general usage rating may suggest. This is still the exception rather than the norm, but we're still seeing a ton of mons that fall under this mismatch category.

I think another important thing to note to is that, despite this usage issue, Regulation F is becoming more centralized. Now, this centralization is interesting because its applying to a much larger pool of mons than it has in the past. Yes, we're seeing centralization, but its applying to 30-40 mons rather than like 15-25. This has also made it easier for "niche B tier mons" to jump up in usage, because the diversity of top tier threats has meant more opportunities for "specialized partners" to emerge as well as the necessity of needing to counter "just one or two more specific things" (since again, the pool of things to cover is larger now.) How that plays out in the viability is something I'll explain shortly.

With all of this in mind, some more huge changes were in order. First, I took a good look at making cuts. This centralizing effect means that we can be more selective: if something was outside top 75 usage and had no significant results in the past couple seasons, I cut it.

From there, here is how things generally shook out:

• I moved new "rising stars" into A. This was pretty selective.
• B Rank is a lot of those "niche mons" I mentioned earlier who shine next to those top threats, though many "general" usage mons are still here as well. B+ represents a lot of the best "sneaky good" mons, and then goes from there.
• C Rank is where things drop off, and we get into those mons that are far outside of top ladder usage. This is also where you'll see some of those mons with "high general usage" but lacking top results (looking at you, Metagross.) While I think general usage is not a great barometer of things right now, I tried to be conscious of the fact that some of these threats could still be seen at low/mid ladder and still have some of those "gotcha" elements that are worth mentioning.

The changes below update some of the suggestions from my last post as well, so refer to this one as the definitive post.

Right then, onto the big meaty stuff. Bear in mind a big motivation here was to reflect the centralization and subsequent cuts, so that is why you see so many drops to accommodate that shift. Here is the list of rises and drops only:

Rise/Drop List Only

Rises

Basculegion-M (Rise from A- to A)
Alomomola (Rise from B- to A-)
Annihilape (Rise from B+ to A-)
Latias (Rise from B+ to A-)

Dondozo (Rise from B to B+)
Gouging Fire (Rise from B to B+)
Mimikyu (Rise from B to B+)
Amoonguss (Rise from B- to B)
Clodsire (Rise from B- to B)
Entei (Rise from B- to B)

Drops

Porygon2 (Drop from A to A-)
Hippowdon (Drop from A- to B+)
Iron Crown (Drop from A- to B+)
Serperior (Drop from A- to B+)

Breloom (Drop from B+ to B)
Garchomp (Drop from B+ to B)
Incineroar (Drop from B+ to B)
Iron Hands (Drop from B+ to B)
Meowscarada (Drop from B to B-)
Metagross (Drop from B to C+)
Suicune (Drop from B to C)
Swampert (Drop from B to C+)
Avalugg (Drop from B- to C+)
Blissey (Drop from B- to C+)
Excadrill (Drop from B- to C+)
Skeledirge (Drop from B- to C+)
Volcarona (Drop from B- to C+)

Azumarill (Drop from C+ to C)
Fezandipiti (Drop from C+ to C)
Goodra-Hisui (Drop from C+ to C)
Iron Valiant (Drop from C+ to C)
Tinkaton (Drop from C+ to C)
Tyranitar (Drop from C+ to C)
Walking Wake (Drop from C+ to C)
Zapdos (Drop from C+ to C)
Arcanine-Hisui (Drop from C+ to C-)
Baxcalibur (Drop from C+ to C-)
Magnezone (Drop from C+ to C-)
Palafin (Drop from C+ to C-)
Great Tusk (Drop from C to C-)
Iron Treads (Drop from C to C-)
Okidogi (Drop from C to C-)
Rotom-Wash (Drop from C+ to C-)

Newly Ranked

Whimsicott (Rise from UR to C+)

To Unranked

Empoleon
Greninja
Hydreigon
Kleavor
Rotom-Heat
Sinistcha
Sylveon
Thundurus-Therian

If you want to see how the list shakes out with everyone included, look here:

March Viability List

S rank
Dragonite
Flutter Mane

S- rank
Archaludon
Chien-Pao
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
Urshifu (Rapid Strike)


A Tier:

These are very metagame relevant threats that fit on a wide variety of teams, or do a specific role very well.

A+ rank
Chi-Yu
Gholdengo
Landorus-Therian
Ogerpon-Hearthflame
Ogerpon-Wellspring
Scizor
Urshifu (Single Strike)

A rank
Basculegion-M (Rise from A- to A)
Iron Bundle
Latios
Primarina
Raging Bolt
Roaring Moon
Ting-Lu

A- rank
Alomomola (Rise from B- to A-)
Annihilape (Rise from B+ to A-)
Garganacl
Glimmora
Latias (Rise from B+ to A-)
Ninetales-Alola
Ogerpon-Cornerstone
Porygon2 (Drop from A to A-)
Sneasler
Toxapex


B tier:

These Pokemon have at least a few flaws that hold them back from being huge threats in this metagame, but they still have unique selling points that make them good picks for some teams.

B+ rank
Dondozo (Rise from B to B+)
Gliscor
Gouging Fire (Rise from B to B+)
Hippowdon (Drop from A- to B+)
Iron Crown (Drop from A- to B+)
Mimikyu (Rise from B to B+)
Rillaboom
Serperior (Drop from A- to B+)

B rank
Amoonguss (Rise from B- to B)
Breloom (Drop from B+ to B)
Clodsire (Rise from B- to B)
Corviknight
Dragapult
Entei (Rise from B- to B)
Garchomp (Drop from B+ to B)
Grimmsnarl
Incineroar (Drop from B+ to B)
Indeedee
Iron Hands (Drop from B+ to B)

B- rank
Blaziken (Drop from B to B-)
Cresselia (Drop from B to B-)
Heatran
Hydrapple
Iron Moth (Drop from B+ to B-)
Kingambit
Meowscarada (Drop from B to B-)
Ogerpon-Teal Mask
Pelipper
Torkoal (Drop from B to B-)

C tier:

These Pokemon are fairly niche, though not unviable. If your team uses one of these Pokemon, make sure your team needs their specific selling point, and isn't a job better done by more relevant Pokemon.

C+ rank
Avalugg (Drop from B- to C+)
Blissey (Drop from B- to C+)
Excadrill (Drop from B- to C+)
Metagross (Drop from B to C+)
Scream Tail
Skeledirge (Drop from B- to C+)
Swampert (Drop from B to C+)
Ursaluna
Volcarona (Drop from B- to C+)
Whimsicott (Rise from UR to C+)
Wo-Chien

C rank
Araquanid
Azumarill (Drop from C+ to C)
Espathra
Fezandipiti (Drop from C+ to C)
Goodra-Hisui (Drop from C+ to C)
Iron Valiant (Drop from C+ to C)
Pawmot
Suicune (Drop from B to C)
Tinkaton (Drop from B+ to C)
Tyranitar (Drop from C+ to C)
Walking Wake (Drop from C+ to C)
Zapdos (Drop from C+ to C)

C- rank

Arcanine-Hisui (Drop from C+ to C-)
Baxcalibur (Drop from C+ to C-)
Great Tusk (Drop from C to C-)
Iron Treads (Drop from C to C-)
Kommo-o
Lucario
Magnezone (Drop from C+ to C-)
Okidogi (Drop from C to C-)
Palafin (Drop from C+ to C-)
Rotom-Wash (Drop from C+ to C-)

And here is the list with my personal notes on rises and drops put in. Not all have notes, but a lot do:

March Viability List Annotated

S rank
Dragonite
Flutter Mane

S- rank
Archaludon
Chien-Pao
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
Urshifu (Rapid Strike)


A Tier:

These are very metagame relevant threats that fit on a wide variety of teams, or do a specific role very well.

A+ rank
Chi-Yu
Gholdengo
Landorus-Therian
Ogerpon-Hearthflame
Ogerpon-Wellspring
Scizor
Urshifu (Single Strike)

A rank
Basculegion-M (Rise from A- to A)
-- With the advent of bulky Basculegion, this thing can be nightmarish to face late game. This is on top of all the other crap it can do. This bump is well-deserved with the results it has been obtaining.
Iron Bundle
Latios
Primarina
Raging Bolt
Roaring Moon
Ting-Lu

A- rank
Alomomola (Rise from B- to B+)
-- Probably the rising star of S15! Jumping up to just below top 20 usage in a matter of days to start this season, Alomomola has become one of the premier pivots of the metagame. Originally I was going to put this in B+, but it easily more mainstream than most of the members seen there, so I'm giving it a huge boost to A-.
Annihilape (Rise from B+ to A-)
-- Lead Ape has been making a comeback. Final Gambit, Fling Light Orb, Stealth Rock... its tools of the trade have been making the rounds again, and I didn't even mention Rage Fist. While its usage rating is somewhat modest for A ranks, its report representation is not. I say bump it up.
Garganacl
Glimmora
Latias (Rise from B+ to A-)
-- Latias has been carving out a niche for itself despite the popularity of its sibling, and it shows in the report data as well as in general usage.
Ninetales-Alola
Ogerpon-Cornerstone
Porygon2 (Drop from A to A-)
-- The digital duck is still a nuisance under the right circumstances, but power creep continues to push it down. Sub top 30 in usage? What year is it?
Sneasler
Toxapex


B tier:

These Pokemon have at least a few flaws that hold them back from being huge threats in this metagame, but they still have unique selling points that make them good picks for some teams.

B+ rank
Dondozo (Rise from B to B+)
-- While I think the fish is still a lot riskier this reg, its results are hard to argue with. Its gots 4 top 100 finishes in S15, garnering both stall finishes as well as general finishes. In my eyes, it sits on the cusp of that "almost high tier" right now, so B+ is meant to reflect that.
Gliscor
Gouging Fire (Rise from B to B+)
-- Despite the overall drop in usage, its high level representation has actually increased since last season. Its also got the benefit of great set versatility on its side. Seems a bit weird ranking it higher than Entei given the comparison in usage, but that's the craziness of Reg F trends for ya'.
Hippowdon (Drop from A- to B+)
-- I think Hippowdon doesn't always get enough credit in the viability for how rock solid it is, as its usage doesn't always reflect its mainstay performances at top ladder. So why the change now? The difference is that Hippowdon isn't the only anomaly performer anymore, and far from it. As Reg F continues to stabilize, Hippowdon remains a steady force but its competing with many other new toys that are also showing incredible surges. So with that in mind, its more that Hippowdon got pushed out by the increasing bar of A- rather than its reliability changing.
Iron Crown (Drop from A- to B+)
-- While it has continued to see good usage in different roles, its significant drop in usage (40th as of March 7th) suggests it hasn't held as much sway as last season. Still a great mon, but a slight bump seems appropriate to reflect the decline in popularity.
Mimikyu (Rise from B to B+)
-- While not nearly as relevant, the ever-versatile Mimikyu is still popping up in several capacities. While it fell off just a little in S15, I still think its one of those "sneaky good" mons that demands a second look at team preview, enough so that I'm putting it here in B+.
Rillaboom
Serperior (Drop from A- to B+)

B rank
Amoonguss (Rise from B- to B)
-- While Amoonguess saw just as many high level finishes in S15 as S14, they were all top 200 in S15! Knowing what this thing has been capable of before, it sticks out a bit in B- so its getting a small bump.
Breloom (Drop from B+ to B)
-- This may seem shocking, but Breloom's Spore niche just isn't keeping it valid. In some ways it has probably been a victim of its own success. Regardless, its disappointing S15 results means that it probably time to drop this guy.
Clodsire (Rise from B- to B)
-- This one is a little under the radar but Clodsire actually saw some pretty good results in S15. Bumping it up a little to reflect this.
Corviknight
Dragapult
Entei (Rise from B- to B)
-- This thing is now in the 20's for usage; yet despite this, its consistency at high ladder isn't even close to matching its high usage. For now, I'm being conservative with its rating. I think its great Flutter Mane matchup combined with its debilitating Sacred Fire move shows it has potential, but I'm not giving this a free pass to the A ranks based on that alone.
Garchomp (Drop from B+ to B)
-- Simply hasn't kept up with its Dragon-type brethren. Still a great mon, just not as viable in the current metagame.
Grimmsnarl
Incineroar (Drop from B+ to B)
Indeedee
Iron Hands (Drop from B+ to B)

B- rank
Blaziken (Drop from B to B-)
-- Fallen off even harder in S15. Speed Boost just doesn't mean much when you're so easy to priority snipe.
Cresselia (Drop from B to B-)
-- In a fast and furious meta, Cresselia has found itself usurped by the less passive Latias, who can pack the same Psychic-Fairy offense combo (since it got Alluring Voice in the DLC.) Cresselia has already been seeing a steady decline, but I think given the data I again think a small drop is the best choice right now.
Heatran
Hydrapple
Iron Moth (Drop from B+ to B-)
-- Its usage is steadily melting in the face of other good Fire-types. Only 2 reported high finishes in S15, both outside of top 100. Sad days for the futuristic moth.
Kingambit
Meowscarada (Drop from B to B-)
-- Personally, I see Meow maybe once a season run... and yet here we are with it still holding onto top 50 usage. Why? Great question. This is one of those occasions where I'm dropping it due to lack of high level results but I'm leaving it somewhat high because obviously its still being used on ladder lower down.
Ogerpon-Teal Mask
Pelipper
Torkoal (Drop from B to B-)
-- The nature of Torkoal is such that it is basically, "you run Sun teams or you don't run Torkoal." Sun teams just haven't rocked the meta that hard. Bearing that in mind, its not a particularly versatile mon and should be ranked a little lower to reflect that.

C tier:

These Pokemon are fairly niche, though not unviable. If your team uses one of these Pokemon, make sure your team needs their specific selling point, and isn't a job better done by more relevant Pokemon.

C+ rank
Avalugg (Drop from B- to C+)
Blissey (Drop from B- to C+)
Excadrill (Drop from B- to C+)
-- Oversold this thing before, even for B-. Sand Rush's Speed advantage outrunning up to Booster Energy Flutter Mane is still notable, but with so much priority running around its fairly easy to counter. Even with Tera, this thing is still frail.
Metagross (Drop from B to C+)
-- Metagross has done effectively nothing at high level and is sitting at a paltry sub-50 usage now. Big drop for it.
Scream Tail
Skeledirge (Drop from B- to C+)
Swampert (Drop from B to C+)
-- Is Swampert still something to watch out for? Yes. Does it see any consistent usage at high ladder? No. With so many good rockers now (and ones that aren't immediately shafted by Ogerpon,) this is a trend that failed to gain ground.
Ursaluna
Volcarona (Drop from B- to C+)
Whimsicott (Rise from UR to C+)
-- This thing has skyrocketed into prominence as an Alomomola partner. This initial rating is seems low compared to its high usage but we should give this thing a little more time in the oven before we rate it too highly.
Wo-Chien

C rank
Araquanid
Azumarill (Drop from C+ to C)
-- Really inconsistent but general usage is too high for me to melt this thing too hard. Its "around" more than a lot of other things but is otherwise not on the high ladder radar much.
Espathra
Fezandipiti (Drop from C+ to C)
Goodra-Hisui (Drop from C+ to C)
Iron Valiant (Drop from C+ to C)
-- Decent 60's range usage but barely producing, usually through Sash sets. Slight drop.
Pawmot
Suicune (Drop from B to C)
-- What's a Suicune, and where can I find one in BSS? Yeah, B is absolutely laughable for this thing, so its getting hit by the viability hammer hard.
Tinkaton (Drop from B+ to C)
-- Tinkaton is actually still punching its ticket to multiple top 1000 teams, but otherwise its overall usage suggests that its not something you're going to be worried about most of the time. As far as lead potential and representation is concerned, its not in the same league as contemporaries like Scream Tail.
Tyranitar (Drop from C+ to C)
-- Maintaining decent usage and it has some lower report representation, but its mostly relegated to being a sand setter for the similarly mediocre Excadrill. This lack of splashability (for a C Rank mon) is why I'm dropping it.
Walking Wake (Drop from C+ to C)
-- Simply put, there are better sun users out there, particularly ones that don't have a "bad" signature move outside of sun.
Zapdos (Drop from C+ to C)
-- Defensive Zapdos and the occasional Scarf variant still see use every once in awhile. Not doing great usage wise but its sticking to its guns, so putting it in the middle of C.

C- rank

Arcanine-Hisui (Drop from C+ to C-)
-- An interesting concept but one that hasn't been reaping significant results. A drop that is probably overdue but easier to make with the cuts this round.
Baxcalibur (Drop from C+ to C-)
-- Baxcalibur has fallen off a cliff more or less. When you have no reported results for the entirety of Reg E, then only a single S14 result... that's Focus Sash? Its glory days, at least for now, are well behind it. Still ranked in the 60's range though, so I assume you still see it bopping around medium/low ladder with some consistency.
Great Tusk (Drop from C to C-)
Iron Treads (Drop from C to C-)
Kommo-o
Lucario
Magnezone (Drop from C+ to C-)
Okidogi (Drop from C to C-)
-- Not common but it does appear stabilized around bulky Guard Dog sets (Drain Punch, Bulk Up / AV, etc.) Occasionally shows up in top 100 reports; top-level usage is inconsistent, but the fact remains it has stabilized move usage/strategy I can point to in a general sense. Worth keeping in mid/low C because of some unique interactions that are worth considering.
Palafin (Drop from C+ to C-)
-- Another oversell on my part. Hero Form + Jet Punch isn't what it used to be with so many good resists running around. S15 results also support a drop.
Rotom-Wash (Drop from C+ to C-)

To Unranked

Empoleon
Greninja
Hydreigon
Kleavor
Rotom-Heat
Sinistcha
-- While I can argue this thing is an Urshifu-R killer, this hasn't translated into nearly anything significant at higher levels. To boot, its general usage is just too low to keep ranked in my opinion.
Sylveon
Thundurus-Therian

If you have any questions about anything I didn't explain, please ask!

 

[Omastar68]

I 100% agree on upping dondozo(again,) I'm UNAWARE as to why it dropped, ever. Now, it is in more competition with Alomomola these days, a fact I like, though I inexplicably use dozo not mola now, but I digress. It's the fissure. I'm probably biased as I tend to have good luck with that move, but oh well. And ofc there are options, I find fissure the biggest draw, but it's not just sitting there spamming that with much optimism, it has a strong wave crash, ok coverage, curse. Good rester. Unaware is a huge safety net. I guess on bad stuff it doesn't deal w/ defensive DNite, like helmet probably or, yikes, encore. Special can deal reasonable damage, and pao seems very likely to be electric, so I have to tera there. Oh and ofc Ogerpons, but at least the type stuff applies to other bulky waters.

 

[michael calicchio]

Forgot who it was that use to post best teams from the seasons but if anyone has that info please let me know it would help.

 

[Omastar68]

Keeping in mind what I said about Dondozo, it's worth noting that Alomomola is higher usage(last I checked, even if this has changed it still deserves a boost.) I think B- is too low, for starters because it's below Dondozo at present. B+ I think is the minimum for what this mon brings now, maybe even A- IF Dondozo goes up a tad like it should, and Mola is considered better still.

Edit: hippo is much too high for #64 A- shouldn't be ok usually. I mean it's not bad, but, for now, maybe B?

 

[DerpySuX]

Ogerpon-H to S-
Initially I was one of the people who voted for its drop but after using it more with a variety of EV spreads and movesets it became abundantly clear that I was not giving it enough credit. The sheer amount of things it handles cannot be overlooked, and adding that to the fact that it still hits like a truck with minimal attack invest, it’s a great fit on almost any team and imo deserves to be re promoted to S-

 

[Omastar68]

Putting it just a teeny bit over wellspring also meshes well w/ its generally higher usage. Fully agree.

 

[Psynergy]

Hi this thread is not dead. Unfortunately we never really did many major updates during Regulation F due to busy schedules and also the general lack of need to make major shifts. This update will be the first shift into Regulation G, happening later than I would have liked but better late than never.

Due to the addition of restricted Pokemon and their unique elements to the game, there are some major changes here. We've decided to list restricted Pokemon and non-restricted Pokemon separately due to the unique element they add to teambuilding and how they interact with usage. We didn't strictly need to do it this way but we figure this eliminates confusion on our end as to whether Terapagos in A- is equivalent to Rillaboom in A- for example, as the opportunity cost of restricted Pokemon is an inherently unique element to their viability that isn't present in other Pokemon.

The ranks are also far more trimmed down due to the major shift of the metagame, we've seen certain lower usage Pokemon surge massively this regulation due to unique restricted matchups (Hippowdon) whereas previously top tier threats like Raging Bolt and Latios have fallen off due to a dramatically changing landscape that does not favor them. We could definitely justify ranking more Pokemon and are open to discussion on Pokemon that may be missing from the new list, but overall I think trimming down the ranks is a net positive until we see what comes on top team reports this month.

 

[DerpySuX]

Koraidon has an analysis on site already so I just added that in to the op, as the one who provided most of the baseline ranks for this I say it looks good though I may be biased

 

[DerpySuX]

S MINUS seems to indicate that something is still just a teeny bit wrong w/ the mon, and at this time in this meta I disagree w/ that pretty much.

pao loses to Koraidon usually bc tera fire, Calyrex can beat it with tera fairy, etc

Being a certain rank in usage doesn’t mean it has to be S tier. Flutter mane and Dragonite were ranked S because they were far in a way better than the rest of the metagame in almost every scenario. Chien-Pao is incredibly strong, but it is far from as dominant as Flutter Mane and putting it in the same tier would be disingenuous.

• Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but avoid basing your entire argument around them.

 

[DerpySuX]

Well ok they WERE supporting it though. The restricted is what made me think it's s. I suppose with Tera but...it's like always with Tera. Otherwise boom, 2x or 4x se STAB. I was teambuilding, trying to get pao with a restricted, and saw that's hard to do, is all. Like I had tern, but even if you can be boosted or Tera for crash, it gets sheer cold. Ok well nvm.

you don’t even have to tera to beat pao generally, and restricteds aren’t the only mons in the meta, even if, hypothetically, pao was as automatic as you’re suggesting against most of the restricteds, there are still things that can beat it fairly reliably, Urshifu R is the most notable example.

To prove my point I’m mostly running a Koraidon team who’s main switch to pao would be my own pao, and it’s not that hard to beat with that minuscule counterplay.

Here is a game I played vs a Calyrex team and Pao did almost nothing despite having a generally decent matchup against their restricted choice.

Again a Calyrex team where pao barely does anything due to my opponent having sufficient counterplay

More replays of Pao getting outplayed and/or otherwise being shut down while having minimal impact on the game.

Hide

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9bssregg-2124877381
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9bssregg-2124673315
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9bssregg-2121660968?p2

Yes, this can be the case with any mon, but I picked out these replays specifically to show that
A - Pao is by no means guaranteed to win any of the matchups originally outlined, and actually can quite easily lose them if the opponent plays correctly
B - Pao has few options to truly mess with or hinder progress of its checks. Fishing for Sheer Cold is unreliable and cuts into paos moveslots, which are more important than ever with the current power level and amount of things it wants to be able to threaten. Meanwhile flutter mane can run nasty support sets to very easily take advantage of its usual checks.

In the past, Flutter was #2 after DNite, and was solidly S proper. So with usage and the atch us it seems to fit.

Aside from naming a few favorable matchups it has and essentially saying it hits hard (which we already know), your entire post hinged on this at its core, which is clearly in violation of the rule I quoted in my previous post.

 

[DerpySuX]

Small update, I went through and updated the VR so any ranked mon that has a sample set or full analysis on the dex has the link embedded. I also updated the links that took you to outdated pages (series 1 or 2), so now if you are curious as to what something does you can more easily access their analysis pages to read up on it.

 

[Omastar68]

I feel like a traitor, but Alomomola is not on Dondozo's level anymore. Just ignore the usage discrepancy that favors this, because that seems dangerous to use. Alomomola is passive WITHOUT Yawn, a huge BP STAB, Fissure, or even decent set up. Fissure's 30% to ohko is also better than the 30 to burn, at least given the petite SpA of mola. She gets cool stuff in Mirror coat, wish, and flip turn, but idk that this is enough really. Mirror coat is dependent on them, and weak to the set up dozo wholly ignores, and wish is only good with flip turn(I would expect,) which is great but still a weaker u turn. The tab for when the pokemon wins shows dozo wins a lot(but also loses a lot, not sure how that happens,) vs Koraidon, more than mola. It also ruins zacian better. Reading the description for A ranks, dozo really seems to fit, while mola seems held back, but with some unique selling points, for b. Anyways I hope I'm right for once, or at least learning why I'm not will be illuminating. I mostly feel ok with this opinion cause I LIKE Mola. If I was biased against than I'd stay away from demoting it.

 

[DerpySuX]

Alomomola and dondozo do very different things. Dondozo is a wall that quite literally just sits there and does not die, while Alomomola is a pivot. Its role is to come in, take a hit and pivot back out. It does indeed use mirror coat to catch spa mons that try to break through it with sheer power, but that is mostly secondary to its normal mode of operation. You can see this trend pretty easily by looking at its most common moves. Flip turn is far out in front being on literally almost very single one. Is alomomola as good or as widely used as Dondozo? No not at all, but comparing the two doesn’t really make a lot of sense. The only similarity between them is that they’re both bulky water-types. The way they take advantage of this trait and fit on a team is very different though.

There is maybe an argument to drop Alomomola to A- or B+, but dondozo isn’t really relevant to that discussion imo.