Metagame SV LC Speculation Thread

[Coconut]

What does not go in this thread:

VR Rankings/Posts/Nominations
Sample Teams


What does go in this thread:
Sample Sets of new or existing Pokemon
Brand new metagame speculation
Thoughts on the very early metagame
Complaining about how broken something is

Go nuts everyone! Enjoy the new metagame.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

One thing I wonder is if Swords Dance would be a notable addition to Diglett's arsenal or not. The increase in power is indeed notable but can it reliably fit the move? It did lose Beat Up but there's other options Diglett commonly runs that it could use to replace that.

 

[ZeStinky]

first impressions:
girafarig needs banning pronto lmao

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Quaxly @ Berry Juice
Ability: Moxie
Level: 5
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- Rapid Spin
- Aqua Jet
- Acrobatics

Probably not the ideal spread or set but I've been having fun with this. This can snowball pretty well, has utility in Rapid Spin, and a lot of our Water resists (mainly Grass-types like Foon or stuff like the occasional Croagunk that might pop up since our Fighting-type line-up this gen is barren) tend to not take Acrobatics well unless you're Slowpoke or Mareanie. Something like Pawn, Magnemite, or Foongus to handle those is ideal.

 

[ZeStinky]

Glimmet @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Toxic Debris
Level: 5
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 52 HP / 20 Def / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Power Gem
- Sludge Wave
- Tera Blast

glimmet is a fantastic lead, being able to 1. set hazards and 2. be fast and incredibly high powered. can bait in ground types and slam them hard with water tera blast.


Skwovet @ Salac Berry
Ability: Cheek Pouch
Level: 5
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Body Slam
- Stuff Cheeks
- Seed Bomb

new move stuff cheeks allows you to troll the opponents with your +1 speed +2 defense +33% health berry and then maybe sweet with belly drum
seems bad but god i love it for that

 

[Fiend]

I've played about 25 games and made 3 teams. I'm going to bed with my prior held beliefs affirmed.

The ghosts seem pretty okay to keep around, but Murkrow and Meditite are even more absurd than I recall. It was nice to play with some new/old toys but they're losing their luster fast. Tera isn't particularly interesting to play with, but does lead to a few "oh neat. i lose now" moments. Webs, Diglett, Drifloon seem really hard to keep with Tera around as well, but the meta needs time to develop around these less powerful threats which can only occur when we remove Murkrow and Meditite.

As for new mons and new ideas, there's only so much to say. Anything that can set up has promise with Tera. Anything that's strong or lacking coverage gets a little better. There's limited opportunity cost with Tera so the aspects of it which are interesting barely exist for me. So far I've really only seen reason to use it to boost STABs on Scarfers or a priority move on something else. As for Tera being broken, it seems so but it also seems likely that as people develop better information the absurdity may curtail.

Take aways: Giraffe seems mild but really useful. Missy seems like it enables dumb sweepers. Dunsparce wishes there were less ghosts. There's no reason to run Croagunk yet. Gothita is fringe broken already. Shroodle is fun. Meditite has to go. Murkrow has to go. I liked these three sets:

Glimmet

Glimmet @ Focus Sash
Ability: Toxic Debris
Level: 5
EVs: 132 HP / 180 Def / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Power Gem
- Explosion
- Spikes

I am not pretending this is creative. This is a cool Pokemon that really like the offensive mons that are fun to run right now. You need a way to kill yourself vs SD Dig, and there's a lot of utility in having boom on a hazard Pokemon to begin with. People are running Toedscool slow to hit 14 defense, so this can deny the Spin as well. The T-Spikes are not blocked by Magic Bounce.

Gastly

Gastly @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
Terastal Type: Electric
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Def / 196 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Destiny Bond
- Thunderbolt

Tera electric is probably the best midground and you can switch out of Diglett so locking into T Bolt isn't a crime, only a sin. Run Evio Missy if you are having issues with Tite.

Maschiff

Maschiff @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Stakeout
Level: 5
Terastal Type: Dark
EVs: 36 HP / 212 Atk / 36 Def / 28 SpD / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Play Rough
- Trailblaze
- Psychic Fangs

Some legend is running TR with this thing Life Orbed. Someone else almost got me with this guy Scarfed. Stakeout Crunch is dangerous, and there's a lot of Pokemon who are scared STAB Crunch to begin with. Resists tend to also be valuable for other Pokemon which indicates to me that this idea has some legs. Seems really potent at least for right now when it can come in on Ghosts and frail mons.

 

[TheShoddyStrawman]

Buizel @ Berry Juice
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 5
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Bulk Up
- Wave Crash
- Ice Punch

Buizel is now a premier rain abuser like it was in DPP. It has a 18 (19 with a plus nature) speed stat so it’s valuable outside of rain, gets the brand new Wave Crash to have it hit even harder, and can become even more dangerous with bulk ups. Similar to Ponyta in SwSh, you can use the recoil of your strong stab attack to proc Berry Juice and get you back up to full health. It might have a shot outside of rain just because of 19 speed stab wave crash, but this set works pretty well for me already.

I’m running Tera Ice with Ice Punch for 2 reasons. First, you can deal with grass types that would otherwise wall you. Second, you don’t need Tera to function with it. You also get Ice Spinner, which is an idea, but unless there’s some weird calcs like Abra’s Submission versus Drain Punch rolls in SwSh, I’ll keep it on Ice Punch for now. Getting a Freeze is better when there’s basically no terrain being set.

Now that we have a rain abuser, what are we going to do for a rain setter?

Voltorb @ Damp Rock
Ability: Static
Level: 5
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Thunder Wave
- Volt Switch
- Taunt

Tera type doesn’t really matter, it’s not going to do that anyway.
I tried it with Explosion, but it can’t do that because it’s too late in its learnset. Very sad. Instead you can use Rain Dance, T wave, Volt Switch, Taunt. Taunt is pretty good for being able to deny hazards in a metagame where it’s hard to truly remove them due to the lack of rapid spin and defog. Thunder Wave is to prevent an opposing 19 speeder (such as Missy, Murkrow or Gura) from being able to run wild and instantly set up, as well as some pretty alright speed control. Volt Switch is for momentum and Rain Dance is to set Rain. I’ll need to test out rain to see if it’s even good, but so far it’s pretty fun. Good luck to everyone else in discovering the meta.

 

[Altariel von Sweep]

Meditite and Murkrow /neg

 

[Charis_Akins]

Shroodle @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
- Gunk Shot
- Endure

I think this is going to be a premier member of screens HO as long as Tera is around (which is probably not long). Dark just compliments it so well, making it immune to Psychics and Prankster status, resisting Sucker Punch, not dying to Diglett, and also giving STAB to Knock Off. Endure to reliably proc Berry Juice and Unburden. Once it gets a SD and Unburden it becomes hard to stop. Only Pawniard and Tinkatink (and Sandile, I guess) resist the combination of Dark and Poison, and both happen to be weak to Diglett, making Memento Diglett an excellent partner. I think Jolly is a good option for outspeeding threats like Drifloon but I ran Adamant on the ladder for the extra spice. This Shroodle set relies pretty heavily on Screens, but when you give it the opportunity to set up it's really fun.

 

[Lialiabeast]

Hot

Shroodle @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Gunk Shot
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

Very hot

Quaxly @ Eviolite
Ability: Moxie
Level: 5
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 236 Atk / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Rapid Spin
- Brave Bird
- Liquidation

These 2 new mons go very hard
Trust

 

[CamJay12]

Just a few thoughts on very early Metagame and where I think the community/tier has to go in the future.

It seems that the early metagame as well as the overall sentiment for Scarlet and Violet is that offense is more rewarding. This is due to the fact that Tera STAB boosts/type change and overall stall nerf (nearly all forms of recovery to 8pp) combines for a rewarding offensive meta. This seems to result in many games becoming a KO fest, where setting up sweepers and/or stopping/countering opponent's threats becomes paramount to victory.

Not to say that this "offensive" positioning is "bad", as Pokémon is clearly a "positioning game" as it were. However, when the meta is so "simple" that many games come down to a "their sweeper was just better" (positioning wise within the game state) or "I lost the Tera prediction coinflip" it seems unrewarding to the "competitive spirit" that the community often looks for. This "simplicity" is best seen in the Tera mechanic, as I get a sense that players either use Tera to do one of 3 things; set up a sweeper, stop/counter an opponent's sweeper, or win the aforementioned "coinflip".

While Tera is the "gimmick" of the generation, it seems that it has settled between Z moves and Dynamax. Z moves while powerful, also "take up" an item slot, and thus the pro's and con's of choosing to use or not use them is present. This is why Z moves stayed legal as its "in-line" with a central mechanic to Pokémon; no team is "perfect" there are pro's and con's to every choice you make (both teambuilding and game state decisions). Conversely, Dynamax became a "you have no reason not to" and "whoever Dynamaxed better" tends to win (both of which contributed to it getting banned as it was antithetical to Pokémon's inherent "opportunity cost" and "competitive merit" respectively). Tera sits in a "middle ground" that leans toward Dynamax. You don't have the "opportunity cost" like Z moves as Tera doesn't consume an item slot, and even though there is a "opportunity cost" to what Tera type you choose and when to use it, it feels more Dynamaxy in terms of its "practical usage".

I believe the movement that would best contribute to the metagame and tier would be for the community to "make its decision" on Tera (aka suspect test for Tera ban). My worry is that Tera sits in this limbo where the community can't decide on whether it stays or not, and negatively effects the meta. Tera seems to only "muddy the water" on the overall "feel" of the tier and individual Pokémon viability. To illustrate this "muddiness" look at Gen 8 OU, the entire tier essentially had to ban Dynamax before the entire "feel" of the tier felt "competitively competent" (aka anti-gimmick over-centralization) and certain Pokémon ended up being re-introduced and/or re-suspect tested, and the tier continued to evolve.

At the end of the day, the healthiest Metagame's always "evolve" instead of "devolve". Let's make a decision on Tera before we start passing judgements on individual Pokémon when it could be Tera the entire time.

Thanks.

 

[Muksu]

Just a few thoughts on very early Metagame and where I think the community/tier has to go in the future.

It seems that the early metagame as well as the overall sentiment for Scarlet and Violet is that offense is more rewarding. This is due to the fact that Tera STAB boosts/type change and overall stall nerf (nearly all forms of recovery to 8pp) combines for a rewarding offensive meta. This seems to result in many games becoming a KO fest, where setting up sweepers and/or stopping/countering opponent's threats becomes paramount to victory.

Not to say that this "offensive" positioning is "bad", as Pokémon is clearly a "positioning game" as it were. However, when the meta is so "simple" that many games come down to a "their sweeper was just better" (positioning wise within the game state) or "I lost the Tera prediction coinflip" it seems unrewarding to the "competitive spirit" that the community often looks for. This "simplicity" is best seen in the Tera mechanic, as I get a sense that players either use Tera to do one of 3 things; set up a sweeper, stop/counter an opponent's sweeper, or win the aforementioned "coinflip".

While Tera is the "gimmick" of the generation, it seems that it has settled between Z moves and Dynamax. Z moves while powerful, also "take up" an item slot, and thus the pro's and con's of choosing to use or not use them is present. This is why Z moves stayed legal as its "in-line" with a central mechanic to Pokémon; no team is "perfect" there are pro's and con's to every choice you make (both teambuilding and game state decisions). Conversely, Dynamax became a "you have no reason not to" and "whoever Dynamaxed better" tends to win (both of which contributed to it getting banned as it was antithetical to Pokémon's inherent "opportunity cost" and "competitive merit" respectively). Tera sits in a "middle ground" that leans toward Dynamax. You don't have the "opportunity cost" like Z moves as Tera doesn't consume an item slot, and even though there is a "opportunity cost" to what Tera type you choose and when to use it, it feels more Dynamaxy in terms of its "practical usage".

I believe the movement that would best contribute to the metagame and tier would be for the community to "make its decision" on Tera (aka suspect test for Tera ban). My worry is that Tera sits in this limbo where the community can't decide on whether it stays or not, and negatively effects the meta. Tera seems to only "muddy the water" on the overall "feel" of the tier and individual Pokémon viability. To illustrate this "muddiness" look at Gen 8 OU, the entire tier essentially had to ban Dynamax before the entire "feel" of the tier felt "competitively competent" (aka anti-gimmick over-centralization) and certain Pokémon ended up being re-introduced and/or re-suspect tested, and the tier continued to evolve.

At the end of the day, the healthiest Metagame's always "evolve" instead of "devolve". Let's make a decision on Tera before we start passing judgements on individual Pokémon when it could be Tera the entire time.

Thanks.

I think tera is pretty fun and flexible. You can do a lot with it, and the mechanic opens up interesting teambuilding options and decisions during battles.

...or I would think like that if it wasn't for the sweepers. Sweepers can use Tera Blast to fix their offensive coverage to become very hard to deal with. And the tera type change coinflips can feel a bit too decisive. Maybe it'll be a tiny bit less oppressive after the imminent Misdreavus and Girafarig bans happen since they are popular tera sweepers. Still, things like Flittle will abuse it to the max.

I really have mixed feelings about the mechanic. It's interesting and its power level isn't off the charts. But it can cause play patterns that could be considered unhealthy for the development of the metagame.