It's been more uncommon with the release of Alolan Sandslash but it's still really nice for Sneasler and other Fighting-types. Also hits weakened Galarian Wheezing which is typically an issue for Baxcalibur.
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Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Indigo Disk]
- Thread starter maroon
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My Ice team's answer to scarf Urshifu and pretty much every other physical breaker is the amazing Avalugg under snow. Consider the following:
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg in Snow: 122-146 (30.9 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Ice Body recovery.
Setting up snow is decently simple as well. A full health Ninetales-A can live a fighting hit once, so a lead Ninetales, plus a Ninetales pivot and a Ninetales sac is 24 total snow turns with Icy Rock. Sure, Avalugg invites in special attackers like Iron Valiant or Keldeo. But Ice has ways to play around them. Frosmoth can come in on all but Specs Keldeo, which can barely be dealt with by Froslass on Secret Sword or Baxcalibur on Hydro Pump.
It's pretty much the same with Sneasler, except you have a chance to get Avalugg slept by Dire Claw and that's usually an autoloss if Avalugg isn't already halfway through an Iron Defense sweep. Poison and paralysis actually help because they prevent Avalugg from getting slept or burned, or toxic'd in the poison matchup. Iron Defense Zamazenta sweeps Ice unless it's pressing into Rocky Helmet Avalugg. And even then there's a chance that Avalugg gets crit while Zam can safely substitute to prevent being crit in return. Fortuately, banded Zamazenta can't 2HKO Avalugg under snow.
So yeah, while fast fighting mons are a nightmare for Ice to deal with, they're not the immediate end of Ice. In the end it comes down to out-offenseing like Giyu said, or building a defensive core to support your Ninetales/Chien-Pao/Baxcalibur offense.
With the end of MWP and the drop of the survey likely leading to upcoming suspect tests that gamers will need to be prepared to hit the ladder for, I had planned on dropping a little resource to answer the most asked question among newer players (second maybe to "how do I build a team?"), which is; what types are best in the meta? I gathered opinions/personal rankings from some pretty solid and knowledgable players and averaged out our rankings, to give you all the Unofficial Type VR (since the actual one drops at the end of the generation).
(Ty to Azick Leafium Z TheWyvernKing Attribute mushamu ArkenCiel Dieu Amphibien for the hand)
Unofficial Type VR:
These are indeed ordered within the ranks as well. I will likely update this as the meta changes/evolves but much more loosely. Hope this helps someone.
(Ty to Azick Leafium Z TheWyvernKing Attribute mushamu ArkenCiel Dieu Amphibien for the hand)
Unofficial Type VR:
These are indeed ordered within the ranks as well. I will likely update this as the meta changes/evolves but much more loosely. Hope this helps someone.
Yooo woooo, type vr up! Looking at it I see nothing out of the ordinary so good work to yall! I think the only thing I would change is Ice to B ranking. Snow + Veil + Bax + Chien-Pao is extremely strong and having Kyruem just pushes the type to B. Ice has many tools to deal with the types in S, A, and B tier which can serve its spot there. as long as Chien-Pao is in the meta every type is having to keep building for a check. While its movesets differs from the player is what makes it threatening. Baxcalibur waiting for Veil to come out so it can wreck havoc for pao is incredibly strong. Also Flying to B, its like Dark and Fighting right now. Same Comps, just 1 or 2 moves changing depending on what you want to counter. Once again keep it up yall, yall are doing great :D (Can't wait to see the survey results).
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Personally I think Flying is still very good and put it at S rank with Steel and Dragon just because Gilscor combined with a sturdy defensive core is near indestructible. The teams that focus on fat by utilizing Gliscor with Corviknight and Cuno/Gyara/Skarmory/Mandibuzz/Torn are really hard to beat and requires additional thinking and prep in the builder especially when combined with an offensive presence like Hwish + Gmolt. Against a lot of stuff fat Flying can kinda just switch and stall them out which proved to be effective in MWP. Ground doesn't have the same support for Gliscor and frankly has a lot of weaknesses especially in Ogerpon/Bax/Pao/Gliscor meta so I don't feel it's as good as Flying and personally put it at B. I also think Poison is very overlooked as a type because of its solid defensive backbone with Salazzle and defensive Pecharunt helps against the powercreep by walling Pokemon like Baxcalibur and Gouging Fire which would otherwise give the type massive speedbumps. The main three things it hates are SD Gliscor, Ursaluna Bloodmoon, and Landorus-I, but other than those if you build it correctly it can get you very far in this metagame.
I also made a cool offensive poison with hazard stacking and Pecharunt if anyone wants to try it out. It's kind of a meme but it works on ladder:
I also made a cool offensive poison with hazard stacking and Pecharunt if anyone wants to try it out. It's kind of a meme but it works on ladder:
Fezandipiti (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Roost
Pecharunt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Nasty Plot
Amoonguss (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Energy Ball
- Foul Play
- Synthesis
Salazzle (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Corrosion
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Toxic
- Flamethrower
- Overheat
Overqwil (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Barb Barrage
- Crunch
Sneasler (F) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Throat Chop
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Roost
Pecharunt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Nasty Plot
Amoonguss (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Energy Ball
- Foul Play
- Synthesis
Salazzle (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Corrosion
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Toxic
- Flamethrower
- Overheat
Overqwil (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Barb Barrage
- Crunch
Sneasler (F) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Throat Chop
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics
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Shamu, you said that steel also belongs to S tier. Can you explain? If we look at the A tier types, I basically autoloses to ground(gravity) and fire, beats fairy, and is slightly disadvantage against flying(gliscor + moltres) and dragon(garchomp + gouging fire). IMO the A tier is good enough for steel.Personally I think Flying is still very good and put it at S rank with Steel and Dragon just because Gilscor combined with a sturdy defensive core is near indestructible. The teams that focus on fat by utilizing Gliscor with Corviknight and Cuno/Gyara/Skarmory/Mandibuzz/Torn are really hard to beat and requires additional thinking and prep in the builder especially when combined with an offensive presence like Hwish + Gmolt. Against a lot of stuff fat Flying can kinda just switch and stall them out which proved to be effective in MWP. Ground doesn't have the same support for Gliscor and frankly has a lot of weaknesses especially in Ogerpon/Bax/Pao/Gliscor meta so I don't feel it's as good as Flying and personally put it at B. I also think Poison is very overlooked as a type because of its solid defensive backbone with Salazzle and defensive Pecharunt helps against the powercreep by walling Pokemon like Baxcalibur and Gouging Fire which would otherwise give the type massive speedbumps. The main three things it hates are SD Gliscor, Ursaluna Bloodmoon, and Landorus-I, but other than those if you build it correctly it can get you very far in this metagame.
I also made a cool offensive poison with hazard stacking and Pecharunt if anyone wants to try it out. It's kind of a meme but it works on ladder:
Fezandipiti (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Roost
Pecharunt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Nasty Plot
Amoonguss (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Energy Ball
- Foul Play
- Synthesis
Salazzle (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Corrosion
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Toxic
- Flamethrower
- Overheat
Overqwil (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Barb Barrage
- Crunch
Sneasler (F) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Throat Chop
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics
Personally for the future of this meta I really think allowing gouging fire, chien pao, and flutter a respectable ban will give us a short breath of fresh air.
Dragon is reigning supreme in this tour and the slots on it usually are the same though it almost always has to be a difficult time with other types that aren’t fairy, water, or flying that truthfully you have to run a check for all three. Did we learn nothing in gen 5 when dragon was abused so much?
Dragon is reigning supreme in this tour and the slots on it usually are the same though it almost always has to be a difficult time with other types that aren’t fairy, water, or flying that truthfully you have to run a check for all three. Did we learn nothing in gen 5 when dragon was abused so much?
I haven't seen any post about Ground type but I see it's ranked very high in post-MWP monotype.
What's the main Ground core right now?
What's the main Ground core right now?
Personally I think Flying is still very good and put it at S rank with Steel and Dragon just because Gilscor combined with a sturdy defensive core is near indestructible. The teams that focus on fat by utilizing Gliscor with Corviknight and Cuno/Gyara/Skarmory/Mandibuzz/Torn are really hard to beat and requires additional thinking and prep in the builder especially when combined with an offensive presence like Hwish + Gmolt. Against a lot of stuff fat Flying can kinda just switch and stall them out which proved to be effective in MWP. Ground doesn't have the same support for Gliscor and frankly has a lot of weaknesses especially in Ogerpon/Bax/Pao/Gliscor meta so I don't feel it's as good as Flying and personally put it at B. I also think Poison is very overlooked as a type because of its solid defensive backbone with Salazzle and defensive Pecharunt helps against the powercreep by walling Pokemon like Baxcalibur and Gouging Fire which would otherwise give the type massive speedbumps. The main three things it hates are SD Gliscor, Ursaluna Bloodmoon, and Landorus-I, but other than those if you build it correctly it can get you very far in this metagame.
I also made a cool offensive poison with hazard stacking and Pecharunt if anyone wants to try it out. It's kind of a meme but it works on ladder:
Fezandipiti (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Roost
Pecharunt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Nasty Plot
Amoonguss (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Energy Ball
- Foul Play
- Synthesis
Salazzle (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Corrosion
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Toxic
- Flamethrower
- Overheat
Overqwil (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Barb Barrage
- Crunch
Sneasler (F) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Throat Chop
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics
Your creativity is unmatched by none, though I’d be terrified to go against this. Then again you dragged me with thick fat walrein some years back.
Sand generally; Banded Excadrill shreds the meta right now due to how offensively oriented it is; so hippo, excadrill, clodsire third for water immunity/grass neutrality/solid spdef attack sponge/tspiker and so on. Ursaluna-Bloodmoon is generally lockedd in as its grounds most stupid broken mon and kind of just sits on a lot of threats from dragon, dark, steel, mirror, and fire. Vacuum wave also helps take out threats like Chien-Pao. Last 2 slots on most standard are Landorus-I + Mamoswine, usually Landorus is 3 attacks + gravity with either scarf or life orb (scarf gravity is a thing yes) and then Mamoswine is usually banded; have seen some rare scarf and even assault vest gamers tho. We have seen some varients with either swords dance Garchomps or Scarf/Bulk Up Great Tusks over Mamoswine, and some Gliscors over Landorus as well.
Also there is Sandless Ground as well but thats just overshadowed byt Sand Ground. Sandless Ground core could look like Any of the Flying/Ground Mons, Mamoswine, clod, Quagsire (Unaware is still nice imo) Steel/Ground, Bloodmoon or Tusk or like Shocks. but like I said it just gets over shadowed right now.
I slapped Steel into S because I feel it has a lot of flexibility in this metagame with a lot of inherently good Pokemon that can cover many roles, especially with the introduction of two defensive staples in Skarm and Archaludon. On paper it definitely seems like it struggles against common types like you said, Gravity Ground, Dragon, and Flying but in my experience using it the main threat you have to be aware of is probably Fire if you're using certain variants that are incredibly Ogerpon-H weak. Skarmory in particular is super good as it garuantees you can fit a Flying mon and Spikes setter into one slot, and it also has Sturdy to check random stuff in an offensive metagame. It's really good against the types that you mentioned would threaten Steel, especially given the fact that with Gholdengo, it's borderline impossible to remove hazards against the type. You can run a lot of minor tweaks on the type to beat traditional weaknesses, for example Air Balloon Kingambit is really nasty against Ground when it comes in against a bunch of stuff and running either defensive or offensive Archaludon means Dragon isn't as problematic. Scarf Gholdengo checks a bunch of threats in the metagame, with the main example being Keldeo just because fast Trick is essentially a "get out of jail free" card for a bunch of things. It’s a pretty big cheat code against Flying especially when they’re forced to sack a mon to Trick while Good as Gold blocking Defog means that a type that’s inherently weak to Stealth Rock is forced to play with them up.
In a teambuilding sense the thing I've noticed about Steel that puts it above the other types ranked in A is that in my experience when building Steel, due to most of its Pokemon all covering multiple roles that synchronize well with each other it hardly ever has 7 Pokemon syndrome. The cookie cutter team of Skarmory / Iron Treads / Kingambit / Heatran / Gholdengo / Archaludon works really well, with the main threat towards the team being specific Water builds that carry a strong special attacker like Keldeo. Other options can also be used over certain Pokemon, for example Hisuian Goodra is a more mixed wall that can be thrown onto teams and can check both physical and special attackers and using it means you don't necessarily have to keep Iron Treads for Raging Bolt anymore while beating Primarina reliably. Jirachi is a wildcard that can run a bunch of stuff to beat traditional weaknesses, and Scizor is a really good setup sweeper that puts immense pressure in the late game especially with hazards up despite being often overlooked in the builder. I personally run Heavy Duty Boots Skarmory because I feel the chip from Rocky Helmet isn't necessary and avoiding hazards is great for keeping Sturdy intact for mons like Azumarill and Gouging Fire. Other types have a harder time covering the vast majority of the metagame, so Steel being able to go above and beyond with even just 5 Pokemon puts it above stuff like Water, Dark, and Fire.
There's also the question of whether or not it's as good as Dragon because the rankings are made through relativity. In my opinion it's definitely not extremely clear cut, but I would argue that there's at least a strong reason to be on the same rank as it. For one, you can get really far in tournaments with just spamming both Dragon and Steel in tandem with each other with a good example being the circuit finals as the two types cover each others weaknesses really well. Both types have a lot of flexibility in the builder and cover a vast majority of the metagame. I would argue if anything Dragon isn't specifically weak to any type in particular but moreso specific builds like Spikes stack since nobody runs hazard removal anymore, while Steel isn't super weak to any archetype in particular due to being well rounded with Iron Treads's Rapid Spin giving insurance against hazard stacking but struggles against really specific threats. Dragon is most definitely still the face of the DLC 2 SV Monotype metagame, but Steel being up there alongside it made sense to me, although I can see how it would make sense for Steel to be in S-/A/A+ or Dragon to be in S+. I also ranked Water and Dark at A because I feel they're both really good in the current metagame
I changed my rankings up a bit and here's mine now. For some insight I've been toying around with Fairy recently and am convinced it's really good and makes sense to put it with Steel, Dragon, and Flying as the "fantastic four" of the competitive metagame. I was debating putting Poison at A since status spam is super strong but B is safe for it since it can be a tiny bit passive. I hate Ground in the current metagame just because on every type it feels like there's some mega strong threat that you need to play with your nuts out to prevent from owning you with the textbook example being the Ogerpon forms and the two Ice Dragons in Baxcalibur and Kyurem. I've tried out Ice in the current metagame and I don't think it's very good; an argument can be made for it to move to B but for now I'm not super convinced it's on Poison's level.
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Mind if I get some clarification on the bottoms types.
I.e, why Electric and Grass are C and Rock and Bug are D?
Electric and Grass are types that aren't good but have a tangible niche which sets them apart from Rock and Bug. Electric has access to the fastest Pokemon in the tier, and with other offensive tools like Magnezone, Thundurus, Raging Bolt, and Pawmot it's fairly doable as an offensive type. Sandy Shocks is incredible at hazard stacking and enables a lot of the breakers on the type to do work. Its main issue is the lack of synergy between the Pokemon, which shows in its lack of good defensive counterplay meaning you really need to get turns right if you want to succeed with it. But looking at what's generally considered the top types, you match up fairly well into stuff like Water, Dark, Steel, Fairy, and Psychic; it takes advantage of teams that don't carry a lot of good immunities for Electric attacks by Volt Switch spam. Unfortunately it has really bad flaws with the main one being a huge weakness to Dragon, but nonetheless it's possible if you'd like to make it work.
I've always been a stickler about Grass in Monotype but it has a niche right now. Its decent offensively, with Ogerpon giving it leverage against the rest of the metagame as a hard hitter with different types of utility. Hearthflame is the go-to, but I've also been enjoying Cornerstone a lot recently since having a built in Focus Sash is fantastic and gives it defensive presence alongside having an 100 BP Rock STAB move to beat Fire Pokemon more easily. It's something I've tested a lot recently and I feel like the problem with the type is that it has access to good Pokemon, but the hazard control is super bad and hazards exploit the type tremendously alongside an inherently shit defensive typing. Toadscruel and Brambleghast are good support Pokemon but they're really bad at removing due to them not being that great defensively. For example, Chien-pao and Baxcalibur are two Pokemon with Ice Shard priority that tear through the type. When Dragon, Dark, or Ice get up hazards the type is pretty much banking on the power of friendship to not get torn apart as Cornerstone Mask Ogerpon and Breloom can no longer answer them reliably. With that set aside it does have its good matchups with Water and Ground being two huge ones, as well as some others like Fairy, Ghost, and Psychic. It's pretty similar to Electric in that they're both decent offensive types but they lack good defensive synergy and cannot function well due to that. A lot of the success for offensive types revolve around defensive flexibility alongside offensive presence, with the best ones in the metagame having access to incredible support Pokemon like Archaludon on Dragon and Steel, Klefki, Clefable, and Hatterene on Fairy, and Gholdengo on Ghost. Grass is a usable type that can beat certain matchups but is unfortunately held back by poor Pokemon and typing.
Rock and Bug are really bad matchup wise and don't really have a tangible niche in the metagame, which is why I ranked them D. I can see Bug being C ranked, but its really bad against a lot of things aside from like Psychic Ground and Dark especially with Gouging Fire's popularity. Rock is probably the clear cut worst type in the entire metagame. It loses to pretty much all the good types except for Fire. I've tried to make it work many times but its pretty much unsalvageable. It doesn't really have any good offensive synergy and it has a really bad defensive typing. Out of the types that are ranked from S to B, a case can be only made for mainly Fire and maybe Poison if you're running like Swords Dance Iron Boulder. Beating 2 types out of the 10 ish top types in the metagame is a pretty good case to have it be in the D rank, and is pretty much the textbook definition of one.
I had to make an account to say my peace. I know the hype behind dragon is well deserved, they have an answer to every typing, its a bully type that leaves little to no room for mistakes. BUT!!
Steel is AMAZING, and you can also work around dragon pretty easily with the sets that steel pokemon have.
I want to hear your thoughts on this, I honestly think steel is better than dragon.
Steel is AMAZING, and you can also work around dragon pretty easily with the sets that steel pokemon have.
I want to hear your thoughts on this, I honestly think steel is better than dragon.
This is a skill issue.
But as a major supporter of Poison, it is still solid. Sure it has it rougher in SV right now with stuff like Gouging fire, Bloodmoon, and Baxcalibur running around but like.
What type outside of Dragon isn't majorly struggling right now?
Besides you're only viewing Poison as "Stall" which is the wrong way to go about it. Of course Stall won't be the best, then run Bulky Balance, get a bit creative. Stuff like Curse Clodsire, Choice Scarf Okidogi, Charcoal Iron Moth. All can solve problems and be used to work around the issues posion have. Curse Clodsire is a wincon that I've used to beat Soma's Dragon recently and can reasonably crush steel if Heatran isn't Wisp, Charcoal Iron Moth has blown holes through plenty of Landorus's with Overheat and blown holes through plenty of teams while still giving me access to switching moves, and Choice Scarf Okidogi has been an excellent cleaner in plenty of games for me.
Is Poison in the best position right now? No. Poison is not in the best place right now, but I can also say the same for Scarlet and Violet Monotype which is also in a rough place right now. And if looking at the survey's hitlist for mons, outside of Ogerpon-Wellspring, their bans would majorly help Poison out and would knock some of our roughest matchups like Dragon and Dark (and even Steel because I could play much loser with Sneasler without Gambit) down several pegs.
Also on offensive Poison, you're doing it wrong, you're meant to load a Poison that could still pass for bulky but disguise it. Run Life Orb Amoonguss and Assault Vest offensively invested Alolan Muk, Screens Glimmora with a setup win condition. Not this 4 offensive mons bullshit.
Facts! I’ve been playing a lot with Dragon and Steel seems to be the one type that gives them the most issues atm. Scarf Arch is pretty strong and hard to stop with team support behind it, as well as having plenty of switch-ins like corn, hoodra, and dengo. Dragon is definitely top dog this gen, no question there, but I’d say steel is a close second.
congrats everyone! you got what you wanted! someone's gotta run a psychological study on some of y'all, everyone was complaining about a boring meta and that gouging fire (along with some other dragons) was the center of it all, then y'all switch up and don't wanna ban it... like what? i cannot fathom to understand what happened these past few weeks.
obviously now, dragon and steel are the top tier types. if you include anything else in s tier, it's almost always because you are gearing those types to beat the 2 that have an overwhelming presence in the meta right now.
the only way to make progress was to ban gouging fire, now it's going to be a very long time before we can really try to get an established balanced meta. sure, i can definitely agree that there are other problems beyond gouging fire, but we had to take what we were given and proceed from there. the gouging fire ban would have been the first in probably a decent wave of following bans/suspects.
i have seen a decent amount of good innovation in this meta, but once again, there is so much centralization around dragon and steel, you are quite constricted in the builder to what doesn't autolose to those types. dragon would have still been a top type even with the gf ban, and it would have been even if we banned baxcalibur too tbh. but it wouldn't have an overwhelming presence to where you're either bringing it or prepping against it. as for steel, it usually naturally has enough to beat dragon, you might have to shuffle some things around but that's pretty much why it's up there with dragon.
overall, i believe a decent amount of the community can concur with a lot of what has been said here. i am obviously all for hearing the opposition (if anyone even truly likes this meta rn) but i really don't see a way forward from here that isn't an immediate suspect of something else, or a quick ban slate which supposedly has no support for, reasonably so. i believe this gen has potential to be one of the best of all time, and that we are just a few bans away from that.
i was gonna go wayyy more in depth if the thread got unlocked earlier but im tired, lazy and bad so i don't really feel like it, but i'm sure this isn't the last of the outrage we'll see. i'm still gonna keep playing obviously... but for now peace out.
obviously now, dragon and steel are the top tier types. if you include anything else in s tier, it's almost always because you are gearing those types to beat the 2 that have an overwhelming presence in the meta right now.
the only way to make progress was to ban gouging fire, now it's going to be a very long time before we can really try to get an established balanced meta. sure, i can definitely agree that there are other problems beyond gouging fire, but we had to take what we were given and proceed from there. the gouging fire ban would have been the first in probably a decent wave of following bans/suspects.
i have seen a decent amount of good innovation in this meta, but once again, there is so much centralization around dragon and steel, you are quite constricted in the builder to what doesn't autolose to those types. dragon would have still been a top type even with the gf ban, and it would have been even if we banned baxcalibur too tbh. but it wouldn't have an overwhelming presence to where you're either bringing it or prepping against it. as for steel, it usually naturally has enough to beat dragon, you might have to shuffle some things around but that's pretty much why it's up there with dragon.
overall, i believe a decent amount of the community can concur with a lot of what has been said here. i am obviously all for hearing the opposition (if anyone even truly likes this meta rn) but i really don't see a way forward from here that isn't an immediate suspect of something else, or a quick ban slate which supposedly has no support for, reasonably so. i believe this gen has potential to be one of the best of all time, and that we are just a few bans away from that.
i was gonna go wayyy more in depth if the thread got unlocked earlier but im tired, lazy and bad so i don't really feel like it, but i'm sure this isn't the last of the outrage we'll see. i'm still gonna keep playing obviously... but for now peace out.
yayyy the thread is unlock woooo. Sad Gouging Fire didnt get banned but that's ok, we are going to be okay -boomp. But anywho instead of whining, moping, coping around and just flat out tryna convince people what is the problem or not. Lets focus on developing the tier as a community to make it fun/competitive to play. Instead of saying blah blah blah your opinion is stupid, blah blah. Seen 
talk alot but again that should of been banned when the suspect happened. All fairness I dont like writing manifestos like yall do but I will just share my thoughts about the metagame.
talk alot but again that should of been banned when the suspect happened. All fairness I dont like writing manifestos like yall do but I will just share my thoughts about the metagame.
- Good mon that does it job by spreading paralysis and hazard for the team. But not over the top busted and shouldn't be looked at. Moment I saw people bringing up mulitple sets of arch, it just flat out beat the whole purpose of the mon itself. Scarf sets, AV sets, Crayola sets doesn't matter when all its about is being a utility mon for the team not a damn Hot Wheelz
- I see ban potential with this girl. Great setup sweeper with the ability to blast through the competition with its coverage makes it a threat to look out for. Grass might not be its strong point but on Fire rather its Sun or Sunless, Firepon made its way to the top, deleting most things at +2. Oh I forgot, it has Healing Wish support. (Would love to see tiering action with firepon).
Papa Bear came strong roaring away the competition. Great bulk, strong Special Attack with access to Calm Mind and Recovery in Moonlight it becomes so hard to take down even at +1. Both types appreciates Big Bear and it can survive alot of S.E. hits. Oh you thought you got the bear low, SKRRRRT lemme just heal it back up. Oh did I mention it hits Ghost types? and Bloodmoon is just an amazing stab move. (Quick ban this mon. NDM did we should tooo wooooo.)- - erm, not much to say honestly since its old suspect. Just get this mon out of here RAHHH.
- ban this mon, do I have to say more? great speed tier + ID Press just makes this a monster for most types to deal with. (This can leave too.)
This was my little thoughts at the end of the day. Council ya'll doing great keep it up looking forward to see what you have in stored for us.
Lastly, we're going to be ok and big fan like always ken - boomp
My rough response to DNB crowd winning.
Okay but seriously, mono community.
Can we please actually get shit banned suspect whatever that is. I would like a tier that is fun, not incredibly restricting to build and play in and doesn't feel like my efforts aren't going in 12 different directions with none of them feeling comfortable.
Okay but seriously, mono community.
Can we please actually get shit banned suspect whatever that is. I would like a tier that is fun, not incredibly restricting to build and play in and doesn't feel like my efforts aren't going in 12 different directions with none of them feeling comfortable.
Hello,
I'm just giving my opinion about the current meta after results of Gouging suspect.
1 - Results of Gouging.
Tbh, I was thinking people will massively ban it. Apparently, I was wrong and if a big majority isn't pro ban in contrast with the survey, what's the issue?
a) Difference between survey and suspect
With survey, u allow everyone to vote. So, the new guy playing monotype has enough "power" than a council member. Just don't forget that, a voice is a voice.
So, with this req system, u delete the part of community who isn't that good, or people lazy to make things move on in "their" tier.
b) Council members:
I'm not writing this to offense them, I respect them a lot because of their work to give us a good atmospher but something calls out to me:
How is it possible not every council member made this req? Only Floss, Scarfire, Chait, Cielau, Tricho voted (so 5/9) ~ only the half of the council...
This thing calls out.
In these results: Only Chait voted DnB, so 20% of council able to vote.
How can we have their full opinion when half of them don't have the req or gave clearly their opinion in the suspect thread?
To medidate...
To resume this first point: Survey is a survey and doesn't reflect confirmed players and not every members council voted...
2 - What's next now?
People want changes, we are aware, but how can we fix this meta?
a) Dragon type
Are people unhappy because of dominance of Dragon type? And if is it the case, how do we fix that?
By Pokemon definition, Dragons are THE type: BST average is the highest in this type because it's Dragon.
This generation, a lot of Dragon have been created: Bax, Walking Wakes, Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt, Archa, Roaring Moon, Hydrapple, Goodra-H, Cyclizard, Tatsugiri... This is more than 2 dragons by gen we saw untill now.
+ Average BST of "good dragons" (exclude Cyclizard, Tatsugiri and Hydrapple) is between 590 and 600s, which is far from others classic mons.
The issue isn't we failed banning Gouging but the Dragon reservoir.
If people wants changes, at least 2-3 dragons need to go in the same time to have an effect on the metagame and dragon type.
b) Others unhealthy/overcentralizing Pokemon:
I won't explain for all of them why they are unhealthy/overcentralizing but just remember, in a certain way; each of these Pokemon try to balance each other which is unhealthy.
I'm thinking to a first thought to Bax, Chien Pao, Flutter Mane, Kingambit, Ursaluna-Bloomoon.
And to a second way: Ogerpon, Archa, Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt.
c) What are we supposed to do?
Another req? No, it will take to many time for maybe nothing.
Bans wave? Maybe it's the way to choose from the council., but I let this decision free to them and make what's right for the metagame.
To resume: Hoping changement with ONE dragon ban is useless, things need to change and not with suspect test but quick actions now.
I'm just giving my opinion about the current meta after results of Gouging suspect.
1 - Results of Gouging.
Tbh, I was thinking people will massively ban it. Apparently, I was wrong and if a big majority isn't pro ban in contrast with the survey, what's the issue?
a) Difference between survey and suspect
With survey, u allow everyone to vote. So, the new guy playing monotype has enough "power" than a council member. Just don't forget that, a voice is a voice.
So, with this req system, u delete the part of community who isn't that good, or people lazy to make things move on in "their" tier.
b) Council members:
I'm not writing this to offense them, I respect them a lot because of their work to give us a good atmospher but something calls out to me:
How is it possible not every council member made this req? Only Floss, Scarfire, Chait, Cielau, Tricho voted (so 5/9) ~ only the half of the council...
This thing calls out.
In these results: Only Chait voted DnB, so 20% of council able to vote.
How can we have their full opinion when half of them don't have the req or gave clearly their opinion in the suspect thread?
To medidate...
To resume this first point: Survey is a survey and doesn't reflect confirmed players and not every members council voted...
2 - What's next now?
People want changes, we are aware, but how can we fix this meta?
a) Dragon type
Are people unhappy because of dominance of Dragon type? And if is it the case, how do we fix that?
By Pokemon definition, Dragons are THE type: BST average is the highest in this type because it's Dragon.
This generation, a lot of Dragon have been created: Bax, Walking Wakes, Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt, Archa, Roaring Moon, Hydrapple, Goodra-H, Cyclizard, Tatsugiri... This is more than 2 dragons by gen we saw untill now.
+ Average BST of "good dragons" (exclude Cyclizard, Tatsugiri and Hydrapple) is between 590 and 600s, which is far from others classic mons.
The issue isn't we failed banning Gouging but the Dragon reservoir.
If people wants changes, at least 2-3 dragons need to go in the same time to have an effect on the metagame and dragon type.
b) Others unhealthy/overcentralizing Pokemon:
I won't explain for all of them why they are unhealthy/overcentralizing but just remember, in a certain way; each of these Pokemon try to balance each other which is unhealthy.
I'm thinking to a first thought to Bax, Chien Pao, Flutter Mane, Kingambit, Ursaluna-Bloomoon.
And to a second way: Ogerpon, Archa, Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt.
c) What are we supposed to do?
Another req? No, it will take to many time for maybe nothing.
Bans wave? Maybe it's the way to choose from the council., but I let this decision free to them and make what's right for the metagame.
To resume: Hoping changement with ONE dragon ban is useless, things need to change and not with suspect test but quick actions now.
As a proud dnb voter I kind of want to share my views on the suspect results.
I see there's a lot of people outraged/annoyed/sad or whatever about the non-ban of gouging, and I do think these emotions are 100% justified. You wanted action and didn't get it by 1 or 2 votes, fine. I'm in the ones that think banning gouging wasn't necessary at all to nerf dragon but well, now we don't have concrete proof that this would've been true or not, so there's no point for me to pursue that matter.
No, what I really want to point out is, from my point of view,
"Gouging suspect resulted in no ban" ≠ "there was no change in the metagame, we are doomed to play this shit tier until gen 10" and I feel like there's a few people that have a hard time separating those 2 ideas. My point being, while there may not have been any direct change in the "game" part, at least the way we see the tier as a whole (the "meta") has been altered for a significant group of capable players, who if presented with another survey might now rank gouging lower that they originally did (myself included). My point being that, I do think that this suspect was extremly useful for the growth of the metagame. Not only was it the most logical choice from the survey's answers, but it sparked critical thinking , which for me would be the most important part of suspects, because one which wouldn't induce any wouldn't be any different from a "slow quickban". Gouging isn't a problem for everyone, now imo we should just move on to the next mon.
Also I've heard a lot of people say that we had to ban it if we wanted council to make more decisions, which I think is just not true lol. They're not some children that would sulk at the community because we're "undecisive", it's a group of many well thought people that I'm sure can adapt to whatever happens and will end up getting it right.
I see there's a lot of people outraged/annoyed/sad or whatever about the non-ban of gouging, and I do think these emotions are 100% justified. You wanted action and didn't get it by 1 or 2 votes, fine. I'm in the ones that think banning gouging wasn't necessary at all to nerf dragon but well, now we don't have concrete proof that this would've been true or not, so there's no point for me to pursue that matter.
No, what I really want to point out is, from my point of view,
"Gouging suspect resulted in no ban" ≠ "there was no change in the metagame, we are doomed to play this shit tier until gen 10" and I feel like there's a few people that have a hard time separating those 2 ideas. My point being, while there may not have been any direct change in the "game" part, at least the way we see the tier as a whole (the "meta") has been altered for a significant group of capable players, who if presented with another survey might now rank gouging lower that they originally did (myself included). My point being that, I do think that this suspect was extremly useful for the growth of the metagame. Not only was it the most logical choice from the survey's answers, but it sparked critical thinking , which for me would be the most important part of suspects, because one which wouldn't induce any wouldn't be any different from a "slow quickban". Gouging isn't a problem for everyone, now imo we should just move on to the next mon.
Also I've heard a lot of people say that we had to ban it if we wanted council to make more decisions, which I think is just not true lol. They're not some children that would sulk at the community because we're "undecisive", it's a group of many well thought people that I'm sure can adapt to whatever happens and will end up getting it right.
