Announcement SV National Dex Suspect 18 - Nocturne

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:sv/dragapult:

Hello ND community. For the final suspect in the string of suspects decided by the previous survey and council slate results, the council has decided to suspect test Dragapult!

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Dragapult ever since its inception has been at the very least a questionable presence in National Dex, attributing it to its speed and Z-Moves giving Dragapult a physical Ghost-type STAB nuke that it otherwise would not have access to, as the only other option is the easily exploitable Phantom Force. In the last Dragapult suspect, when Terastalization was legal, it had been banned because of an easily splashable check in Kingambit being banned prior. But, even with Pursuit Kingambit returning after the Terastalization ban and some other staples being at the forefront of the metagame, public outcry for a Dragapult suspect test has been growing ever since it was freed.

The main problem about Dragapult is its set variety and how easily it can cripple and beat checks long term. Dragon Dance in tandem with Ghostium Z is the primary concern, as most would-be checks such as Ferrothorn and Clefable get annihilated by its Z-Move. Substitute on such sets mean Dragapult cannot be statused by Pokemon like Alomomola, Moltres, and Gliscor and as such uses them for setup. Dark-types such as Kingambit, Ting-Lu, and Mega Tyranitar aren’t completely fullproof against such sets, as Will-O-Wisp is another common option on Dragon Dance that makes these threats much easier to handle long term. Dragapult also uses WispHex pivot sets to excellent effect, as it burns the aforementioned checks while also being an extremely fast pivot, meaning it is not easily revenge killed and can easily pivot out on checks like Clefable and Heatran. Such sets can use Heavy-Duty Boots to avoid entry hazard damage altogether or Z-Crystals such as Dragonium Z to avoid being checked by Moltres and Gliscor consistently. Although rarer because of Pursuit Kingambit and the greater amount of checks compared to other sets, Choice Specs combines Dragapult’s blitzing speed with a STAB combo in Draco Meteor and Shadow Ball that is near unresisted except by Kingambit, which can get worn down over time by its coverage and repeated U-turns.

It is usually not easy to deduce what set a Dragapult will be on team preview. Each set has its own list of checks, and they all cause immense strain in the builder and in practice if you don’t guess it’s set correctly. For example, Ting-Lu is usually a consistent check to Dragon Dance sets, but gets worn down way too quickly by WispHex. Another example is Moltres, who may take on WispHex well but mourns at the sight of Dragon Dance.

However, Dragapult has some flaws that make it not an automatic ban candidate. Dragon Dance sets, while powerful, mainly attribute such power to its Z-Move, and after it is used up it is stuck using Dragon Darts as its only reliable attack, making teams with cores consisting of Pokemon like defensive Great Tusk, Melmetal, Gyro Ball Ferrothorn, and Clefable good options against that set. WispHex has issues with immediate power if it runs Heavy-Duty Boots, lacking the oomph to break through Pokemon like Moltres, Toxapex, and Heatran. Dragonium Z on these sets mean Dragapult is weak to Spikes, which is undesirable as it wants to use U-turn in a lot of instances. There are also checks that do decently against almost all Dragapult sets, including Melmetal, Kingambit, Clefable, and Tapu Fini, a Pokemon that has soared in popularity primarily thanks to its ability to check Dragapult. Kingambit in particular is a nuisance to Dragapult, as although it can be burned, Dragapult still gets consistently Pursuit-trapped by it.

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The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:
  • Create a new account OR use an existing one with no SV National Dex OU games played (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played National Dex OU before the test, full stop.) You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in National Dex OU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements.
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • If you want to double check your account eligibility after following these instructions; play at least 1 game on the account, then run the /rank command on that account. You should see a field on the far right that reads "Suspect Test Eligible?"
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  • If this field says "No" then you have either not set up the account correctly or need to use a different/new account. You do not need to complete your entire reqs for this field to say "Yes"
  • The above does not mean that you have completed reqs! It is only to see if your account is valid for your run.
  • After you believe that you have achieved reqs, double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact sealoo, or a member of forum staff.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me, sealoo , or post here!
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted.
  • We will be using the regular National Dex ladder for this suspect test.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2950. The suspect test will go on for roughly two weeks, lasting until March 9th at 11:00pm GMT -5, and then voting will become available on Smogon, where you will be tagged with a link to cast your vote.
This thread will open after 24 hours to allow all users to share and discuss their thoughts on this suspect test. We expect all posters to follow the following rules:
  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the National Dex Council and the National Dex Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the hypotheticals and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
    • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokémon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokémon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result of this suspect, then so be it. "I told you so" arguments on their own also contribute little to the discussion without supporting evidence and are rather unwelcomed.
    • This is not the place to complain about the suspect process. Please PM sealoo if you have any questions regarding this, and any broader questions about this test.
Keep in mind that the outcome of our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote and voice their opinion.
 
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I ( and others I’ve heard from) am really not sure what to vote for this suspect.

On one hand no specific set(besides possibly dd) is broken. All Pult sets have solid and common checks, and feel good to use and play against. It also makes team building easier thanks to the valuable role compression Pult provides.

On the other hand the set variety does cause problems. Different sets have(for the most part) different checks. This means guessing the wrong set puts you in the back foot. However lots of the time you can guess the set on team preview.

In many ways Specs, DD, and Utility Pult feel like different mons entirely due to not having too many similar checks, and fulfilling incredibly different roles. Granted all sets do have common checks like Mega T-Tar and Gambit, but those mons still don’t like being wisped or u-turned on, even if they eventually wear down the Pult.

DD Pult in particular is a problem due to gaining a good physical ghost move. This leaves very few walls able to check it. However the moment that Z is used, it has no ghost stab. This means if the Z is baited out. DD Pult becomes far less threatening.

All in all I’m not sure what I will vote. I’m definitely leaning ban but not too sure. As you can probably see from what I wrote, most arguments I could think of from one side have a pretty decent counter point which I can agree with. Definitely gonna be watching this suspect more closely than usual to see what point the two sides come up with. Also I’m gonna make a longer and more in depth post once I decide what I’ll be voting.
 
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Im a newer player but i figured id comment anyway since i went through the trouble of getting reqs. I mostly have experience with wisphex sets but have used all three major sets.

i believe Pult is ultimately healthy for the metagame due to being able to check or soft check many threats that i worry may be over centralizing otherwise. It can switch in once on a weather ball from yard and finish it off, or revenge kill it. Its ability as a revenge killer extends to much of the format, like slower dragons in garchomp and kyurem, as well as frailer mons like specs or z lele and specs valiant and waterpon ,which it can also switch in on, and gholdengo. Wisp hex especially helps with this. Its typing also helps it deal with many threats, again like waterpon but also being a soft check to urshifu. It also is in my opinion the best counter to zamazenta which with other mons like lele or moltres, zama can outspeed and ohko with coverage.


Looking at its individual sets weaknesses,wisphex is somewhat lacking in immediate power,meaning it often can't deal with mons that can hit it with super effective damage like mega diancie, iron valiant or tapu lele unless those mons are chipped. It also has a tendency in my opinion to be chipped over the course of the game while spreading burn meaning it may only be able to handle one offensive threat


With choice specs, while every pult set struggles with gambit and ttar, it especially struggles as a shadow ball does next to nothing to these mons meaning you are forced to predict flamethrower or fire blast making it quite exploitable in my opinion.


And as Commet already mentioned dragapults z sets having only phantom force as ghost stab after the z is used up can be extremely exploitable. But additionally dragapult being relatively frail can mean that it gets chipped into msciz(edit:or just priority in general, i just use msciz a lot) range

Ultimately i feel each dragapult set has clear weaknesses and checks that are ultimately not unreasonable to have to build around especially when a kingambit or ttar alone if healthy can trade for it. Its ability to check offensive threats, as well as providing speed control make it incredibly helpful in the builder.tbc im not saying that "without pult yard/zama will be broken", just that pults ability to check offensive threats generally is healthy especially when building. I intend to vote do not ban
 
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I'm not a super avid player of this tier but I got reqs because I feel rather strongly about Dragapult.

I will be voting do not ban (when the voting opens up) for several reasons, the primary one being that Dragapult is not just unproblematic, but extremely healthy for the meta. The primary set that corroborates this the pivot set with Hex. The set isn't exactly the most threatening as it has no immediate power but spreading status is something that brings value to almost every team ever while also enabling it to still be a threat. That being said, Dragapult's lackluster bulk means that it really doesn't check very much on its own without trading. It keeps specifically Zamazenta in check which is very good for the tier as Zamazenta is one of those mons teetering on the edge of broken but that's not justification for a Dragapult unban, that's just part of the ecosystem. Dragapult's main weaknesses are how vulnerable to priority it is and its aforementioned lack of bulk as it can't often come in on mons to check them like Lando T. I think Mega Scizor shows this off best though their interaction. Dragapultult can't switch into it because you can only take so many Bullet Punches/ Knock Offs but Mega Scizor can't switch in on or stay in on Dragapult because it doesn't want to get burned.

The Choice Specs set is very strong but without tera giving it a bit of extra power it's nothing extraordinary. Many top mons hadle it very well but a lot of teams would prefer Tapu LeLe or Iron Valiant as they threaten a wider range of targets.

The set that should in theory be scary is the Dragon Dance set with Ghostium Z but honestly... That set kinds sucks. Getting up a Dragon Dance safely in a position where that boost means anything is harder than you think even with the z move. You have the button a single time and if that doesn't pick off exactly what you need it too then pult ain't doing shit. Almost all (good) teams are equipped to deal with it without having to tech for it specifically as it's still dragapult and it's still very frail.
 
I'll vote ban when voting opens up.
Every single pult set can be defensed easily:Kinga/Dozo for Ghost Z DD,Pex/Tinglu for Specs,Dengo/Moltres for WillHex.
However,we do not have a mon that can defense all these sets easily.Which means we must add more than 1 mon for just 1 pult.That's not proper.
U may say things like Lele and Hoopa-U also can not be defensed with 1 mon.But they are slow and we can use revenge killers for them.Pult is fast and we even need scarf.
So this thing really restrict teambuilding.
 
As a former casual ladder player who left mons at the end of gen 7 and has come back to mons at the beginning of teraless NDOU, seeing the offensive capabilities of this tier is overwhelming on another level imaginable, when I thought gen 7 powercreep was enough, and is what is holding this metagame back imo. Pult being the main antagonist of this is why I believe it’s unhealthy and will be voting ban.

Playing NDOU you will find pult is everywhere, being the 2nd highest mon based on usage. While pult has 3 main sets, they are all vastly different and require totally different answers for each set to cover its special, physical and status/utility side. This doesn’t stop there however, as in it’s DD ghost z set sub and will-o-wisp are common 4th slot options to answer pursuit trappers and status users. Draco Z is also a common option for hexpult to answer moltres and garg.

Each set is somewhat manageable to varying levels individually but in combination it presents itself as a nightmare to switch in to on leaving you to predict the set or have your team’s defensive structure crippled as midground options to all its unique sets are very few. The argument that pult’s set is telegraphed from preview is fake as this angle can be exploited in the builder to conceal or even bait its set.

With its high usage, unrivalled speed tier and its varying sets which have individual techs to further answer its common sets answers, it restricts building, especially for bulkier teams, making it a nuisance for the tier to deal with.
 
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As a former casual ladder player who left mons at the end of gen 7 and has come back to mons at the beginning of teraless NDOU, seeing the offensive capabilities of this tier is overwhelming on another level imaginable, when I thought gen 7 powercreep was enough, and is what is holding this metagame back imo. Pult being the main antagonist of this is why I believe it’s unhealthy and will be voting ban.

Playing NDOU you will find pult is everywhere, being the 2nd highest mon based on usage. While pult has 3 main sets, they are all vastly different and require totally different answers for each set to cover its special, physical and status/utility side. This doesn’t stop there however, as in it’s DD ghost z set sub and will-o-wisp are common 4th slot options to answer pursuit trappers and status users. Draco Z is also a common option for hexpult to answer moltres and garg.

Each set is somewhat manageable to varying levels individually but in combination it presents itself as a nightmare to switch in to on leaving you to predict the set or have your team’s defensive structure crippled as midground options to all its unique sets are very few. The argument that pult’s set is telegraphed from preview is fake as this angle can be exploited in the builder to conceal or even bait its set.

With its high usage, unrivalled speed tier and its varying sets which have individual techs to further answer its common sets answers, it restricts building, especially for bulkier teams, making it a nuisance for the tier to deal with.
Fully agree on the arguement about its set being telegraphed, it’s nowhere near as predictable as some claim. That being said, I disagree that the unpredictability is as problematic as you claim. Hexpult running a Z move and dd dragapult with Z ghost is actually very telegraphed. As soon as you see it take hazard damage, you know it’s either going to be specs or a move which allows for much better counterplay. There are the occasional sash sets but if sash Pult takes hazard chip then it’s a dead item slot so that’s whatever. Team preview doesn’t tell you anything about the set but how your opponent plays does. The point in time that hexpult, specs, and dd are sent in during a game are very often (not always it’s always good at finishing off low health mons) telling of the set. The main thing that I see potentially being problematic is if dd Pult is enough to brute force through teams. From what I have seen, played against, and used, it is not at the point where counter play can’t be built into most teams without being too constricting on teambuilding. It’s a nuisance yes, but that doesn’t equate to banworthy.
 
Fully agree on the arguement about its set being telegraphed, it’s nowhere near as predictable as some claim. That being said, I disagree that the unpredictability is as problematic as you claim. Hexpult running a Z move and dd dragapult with Z ghost is actually very telegraphed. As soon as you see it take hazard damage, you know it’s either going to be specs or a move which allows for much better counterplay. There are the occasional sash sets but if sash Pult takes hazard chip then it’s a dead item slot so that’s whatever. Team preview doesn’t tell you anything about the set but how your opponent plays does. The point in time that hexpult, specs, and dd are sent in during a game are very often (not always it’s always good at finishing off low health mons) telling of the set. The main thing that I see potentially being problematic is if dd Pult is enough to brute force through teams. From what I have seen, played against, and used, it is not at the point where counter play can’t be built into most teams without being too constricting on teambuilding. It’s a nuisance yes, but that doesn’t equate to banworthy.
I agree with the comment about Pult's Z move being telegraphed but with ghost being one of the best offensive typings, when it does come in DD is easily achievable with the threat of pult's other sets as a revenge killer always being a possibility and Z ghost is at least claiming a kill majority of the time, if not brute forcing its way as an end game solution. Excluding KGB, which gets crippled by Will-O-Wisp, the main common answer for Pult is Ting Lu but that mon is most of the time seen on balances and you would have to play perfectly around pult's team to avoid chip to not get 2HKO by +1 darts, resulting in the absence of one mon forming your defensive core against the rest of pult's team, as you can see it gets pretty restrictive to then build the rest of your team with that in mind.

Seeing pult taking hazard damage doesn't help much with the unpredictability of pult's sets. You are still wondering wether you are taking a specs draco, shadow ball, flamethrower, or even a Z ghost/draco. Pivoting to scout sets is also dangerous in itself as again +1 pult is killing most of the tier with 2 moves. I guess seeing pult not taking hazard damage does indicate boots hexpult but again you either get offensive momentum with u-turn to go to your designated hexpult wall or wisping/revenge killing what's in front of you. I agree though based on the opponent's skill and how they bring it in you can form an idea yourself of pult's set but the best piloters of pult will manage to keep you in the dark and ultimately boils down to a predict the pult set correctly otherwise its crippling your team.
 
Ok so People have been asking me to post so here I am. I’m a yapper so this will be a long one.



:sv/Dragapult: sets



Dragapult @ Choice Specs

Ability: Infiltrator

EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Timid Nature

- Draco Meteor

- Shadow Ball

- U-turn

- Flamethrower



Dragapult @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Dragonium Z

Ability: Clear Body / Infiltrator

EVs: 56 Atk / 200 SpA / 252 Spe or 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Naive Nature

- Hex

- U-turn

- Dragon Darts / Draco Meteor

- Will-O-Wisp / Thunder Wave



Dragapult @ Ghostium Z

Ability: Clear Body

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Jolly / Adamant Nature

- Dragon Dance

- Phantom Force

- Dragon Darts

- Will-O-Wisp / Substitute



Anti-ban argument :SV/Dragapult:

There are quite a few that believe Dragapult provide much needed speed control to the Natdex Metagame. While this is indeed true we have a plethora of speed control options such as Zamazenta, Mega Lopunny, and also Scarf mons such as Tapu Lele and Urshifu-R. These same people who feel that things like Zamazenta will get out of control if give Dragapult the ban-hammer but newsflash for you we have plenty of checks the most of which being Gholdengo, Zapdos, Toxapex to name a few.



Pro-Ban argument :SV/Dragapult:



So that leads to the pro-ban argument many people feel Dragapult is very restrictive in the builder. This is a sentiment I agree with strongly as whenever I find myself not building with Kingambit I realize how unhealthy this Pokemon really is. Dragapult finds ways to cheese through its checks the most common way it does that is through Will-O-Wisp. This punishes common switch-ins such as Kingambit, Mega Tyrantitar, and Ting-Lu.



What are the checks to Dragapult?



well we have a few



:SV/Kingambit:



The most consistent check of them all while still fearing burn it still traps and removes pult at the cost of being dead weight the remainder of the game. The emergence of AV sets have made it consistent into all sets of Dragapult. Kingambit only has to be wary of switching into specs Flamethrower from Pult.



:SM/Tyranitar-mega:



The Second most common check. As it can potentially trap Dragapult as well. This Mon does fairly well into Specs and Pivot variants does fear burn from the latter however but still has the opportunity to trap and remove. However, Tar tends to do poorly into Physical variants not only fearing burn but can take a ton from Darts after a boost so you have to be really careful.



+1 252 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 164-194 (45 - 53.2%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock



When you factor in stuff like wisp you can see how this can get out of hand as it can potentially switch out and get an opening later or just chip tar a little then clean up later. (Chipping tar is not hard to do at all).



:SV/Ting-Lu:



Next we have chonky boy. Unfortunately all it takes is a burn to put Ting-Lu out of commission it can already be fairly passive vs certain teams. So burning it amplifies that it doesn’t have the trapping utility of the other darks so Pult can just wisp and switch out uh-oh!



:SV/Heatran: and :SV/Toxapex:



Not gonna lie I don’t even consider these checks in the slightest. Both barely check Choice specs variants and get blown away by dd sets. Additionally, you need toxic to really even do anything back. Wait there is more! It could also pull substitute tricks on you.



What pokemon will eat from Pults absence?



:SV/pecharunt:



Has started to see some use but it will definitely see more usage if pult goes as people will look for more things to check things like Zamazenta.



:SV/Kingambit:



It will be free to run SD sets again as it doesn’t have to play such as defensive role anymore. Pursuit after all was mainly for Pult as ghold has adapted to not be as vulnerable to pursuit anymore.





:SV/Zamazenta:



Does get better but not in the way you think! It does not get busted but it does become one of the premier forms of speed control if Pult is gone it doesn’t have to worry about Pult coming in a threatening it with Wisp.





My personal thoughts



I do agree with the ban sentiments and will be voting ban as I feel this Pokémon is very unhealthy and restrictive to team building.



Well that is all I gotta say I hope y’all enjoyed the post.
 
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I will add some remarks which imo should not be forgotten during the vote.

1) wisp sets crippling checks. I am mainly looking at pursuit mttar and gambit, with the pro ban argument being that, even if pult is pursuited, it will cripple the trapper with willo and make it useless. This is not true, getting a trade with a pult (usually a glue mon or a very threatening breaker) favors the side with the trapper. Also, ttar and gambit are anything but useless even when burned. They can throw knocks and remove items, ttar can still set rocks, and a 5 supreme overlord boosted sucker is still a decent priority which may just win the game, even if the gambit is burned.

Also, being immune to willowisp really messes up the utility pult set, with stuff like volcarona freely setting up on it.

2) Both of its stabs (and both of its status options) have immunities. This can be showcased with a combo like mdiancie + terapagos fully walling dd pult with no prediction except for dodging ghostZ. If immunities keep raging bolt from being too overwhelming, the same can be applied for pult, which has significantly less power and a worse movepool.

3) having to run 2 mons to fully check all pult options is not bad. Its not like any of those 2 mons are niche or bad options outside of their pult checking role. If you add both melmetal and spdef gliscor to stop wisp and wispless sets, you are still getting two great mons even outside the pult matchup. And the options and combos are not in any way limiting. The core you are building around will probably check some pults without even thinking about them, so adding a mon to cover the other sets is really not much of an effort.

4) pult very often claims a ko until the set is determined. Afterwards, with the new information and a used zmove, it will likely be pretty bad into the rest of a well built team. Claiming an “unfair” ko before it can be answered properly is really not something unique to pult. A prediction from rbolt getting +2 or blowing up a lando with z on the switch, mbanette almost always guaranteeing a ko and a priority wisp, zmove koko blowing up a would be check, zardy catching the ttar with focus blast, surprise nasty plot into Z from tornT, and many other situations.

These interactions are very similar in nature to pult interactions, with some of these mons keeping some utility past their surprise ko.

You will probably not answer hdb pivot, av, and nasty plot torn with the same mon and there is very little prior information into the set its running. Overall, comparing torn and pult seems pretty fair as they function very similarly both in terms of set variety and role.

5) its unique role and benefits to the meta.
A very fast utility mon with actual threat is very nice to have. Also, with setup sweepers taking a big hit since the tera ban (they were by far the best tera abusers), having setup sweepers which create healthy interactions is overall nice. The interaction itself I consider healthy since it really comes down to: resist dragon/ghost, use super effective moves, or be very physically bulky and you are fine, with good play. Compare this to volcarona, which eats super effective scald for breakfast, destroys water and rock checks with giga drain, can go through heatran (which looks like an obvious check) with hp ground, can sub to dodge toxic, can willo, roost, run like 4 different z moves, ignore its biggest counter (stealth rock). Overall I find pult interactions to be much healthier.

Also, its abilities are great for dealing with usually annoying, somewhat cheesy, threats like sticky webs or substitute (looking at zama especially), while being useless outside those situations, which is great balancing compared to stuff like proto, quark drive, or even good as ghold, which find value pretty much regardless of what they are up against.

6) it has a bad matchup into gambit, one of the most common mons in the meta. With all of the burns and tricks considered, the matchup is still NOT favorable, but playable at best. Options like sub wisp and flamethrower give pult a fighting chance without flipping the matchup on its head, like it is the case with gambit vs fightZ lele.

Overall, I find pult to be one of the rare examples of BRILLIANT design by gamefreak, and its presence in the tier to be strong, unique, but not overwhelming.
 
With its high usage, unrivalled speed tier and its varying sets which have individual techs to further answer its common sets answers, it restricts building, especially for bulkier teams, making it a nuisance for the tier to deal with.
I find that bulkier teams are better equipped for dealing with it, since they can run multiple of moltres, tinglu, ttar, heatran, etc, to deal with all the sets while still pursuing their playstyle. I find fast but not fast enough (pivoty) offense to be what pult beats best (think mlop, koko, meowscarada).
 
I will never think Draga is Broken. it is not. No set is a problem if you run Fini+Dark type, unless your dark type is some frail mf like Sash Hamurott.
Pult will rarely win games on its own if not running its DD set.
However, I support a Draga ban.

why? well here's the catch: Dragapult has got all the tools to be as unhealthy as possible as a presence in the tier.

Stats:
You can't wall Draga with a physical or a special wall. it has to be a Mixed wall. Even then, the Check has not to be passive against Pult. For example, Knock off Mandibuzz should win ahainst it, but we live in a world where Draga will simply Will-o it, take 26% or something from Koff when holding a Z crystal, and Simply U-turn out. You can't outspeed Dragapult, either. it has a demonic 142 Speed stat, meaning the most meaningful Pokémon to outspeed it is Zeraora, who cannot switch-in safely, recover potential U-turn Damage, and has to run a physical set to have the slightest chance to OHKO it, meaning it cannot switch in on wisp either. an alternative is Mega sceptile. Aside from being god awful in Satan, Val and Yard Meta (TREE homie does not have GROWTH), it has no poissibility to ever switch in, being weak to ddarts and U-turn and not having recovery at all. Moreover, Pult is far from a frail mon. having 142 Speed, 120 atk and 100 spatk means Draga still has plenty of points to invest in Bulk. it is guaranteed to live Choice band weavile's ice shard from full, and cannot be OHKO'd by most of the meta, making sniping it on switch-in even more unreliable.

Typing:
Dragapult's Dragon/ghost type means multiple things: first, it's weak to Pursuit. Second, it's immune to Rapid spin and Close combat, and resisting to Flamethrower, Tbolts, Surfs, Grassy glides from the various mons in the tier. it can't be revenge'd by Thunderclap Extreme speed Vacuum wave aqua jet and grassy glide, gets STAB Dmeteor to click and delete stuff, and that's not all, Rapid spin immunity means it can carelessly switch in on Gtusk Spin, while not being OHKO'd by ice spinner or koff, and still threatening a potential specs Dmeteor or a nasty Will-o.

Movepool:
Draga's Movepool don't look bright but is bloody colorful for sure. sure draga is weak to pursuit but there aint no pursuit user in this tier that don't crumble to at least one of Draga's options; You scouted and know draga is specs, so you send Mtar right? well BOOM it had hydro pump, clean 2HKO, ggwp. You got your Lum Berry Gambit ready to take Draga on? well it Fire Blasted you by predicting your Pursuit. that might not happen exactly like this but these are options this fraud's got. oh and if I feel like it I could justify running Thunder in rain, smacking pex and Molt, which are supposed to have "good MUs" into it.


Abilities:
Dragapult only really uses 2 of its abilities: Infiltrator and Clear body. Imo Infiltrator is what really makes it so banworthily unhealthy. Indeed, multiple pokémon over the course of generations have used Substitute to prevent themselves from getting status'd or revenge killed too easily. Well Pult does not give a fuck and gives you a letter thanking you for taking off 25% of your health for no benefit at all. That, and screens. Screens alread aint in ay good spot rn so having the most dominant mon owning the playstyle FIring full-power attacks aint helping nothing. the second is Clear body, used generally on non-boots sets for the intimidate immunity, but also the webs immunity, and Preventing Speed loss particularly on DD sets.



I think that Pult is an offensive mon that is too good of a support, to broken heights, where it'll be able to beat or trade with its hardest check for no reason but fanciness. Besides, get Draga to switch in into CB Zama Crunch to see how effective Pult is as a "needed zama check"
 
Hi folks, this thread is way more empty than i expected it to be, but nevertheless, i will give my 2 cents about this Dragapult dude.

:sm/Dragapult:

This mon has a smirk on its face because it knows no matter what, it is gonna screw up at the very least one mon from your team. As the intro post of the sus test has said, Pult is proving itself to be a little rascal and be very annoying to a plethora of teams. It can do way too much with little risk. No matter what set it is running, you never know what set it truly is until it has started firing off some specific moves. Let's look at an example:


:dragapult: Comes in, takes Stealth Rocks damage. What does that mean? It could either be the DD Ghostium set, could be the specs set, or it could be the hex will o set but with Draco Z instead of boots. How do you know what set it is before it starts doing some damage to your team?

:Dragapult: Comes in, but does not take damage from rocks. Means its heavy duty boots, so you know the :kingambit: or :tyranitar-mega: in the back of your team can take care of it. You pin it down with Pursuit, but before you can do that.... Oh no! It used will-o-wisp on your pursuit trappers, making them pretty useless for the rest of the game. At most, Gambit is now gonna do a bit of damage with his attacks if it gets a big overlord boost and ttar can only get rocks up now and get some items knocked. That's the problem with pult. No matter where it is in a game, it can do at least a trade and still get value.

Its abilities are also a god send, Infiltrator allows you to status mons behind subs like :zamazenta: or just brute force your way with attacks and clear body makes you immune to stat drops, so the dd z set cannot get worn down by intimidate or even sticky webs for that matter.


Out all the common sets, i think specs is by far the most tame. During most games, it feels like it isnt doing enough damage and is able to be circumvented by a very careful manuvering of switching around your team members. Only thing you should be fearing from a specs pult imo is the shadow ball spdef drops. If it dropped your spdef with a shadow ball... have fun.

I don't think this guy can ever be a healthy in a tier like National Dex OU, where it can so much set variety.

In conclusion, i think there is no reason to keep Dragapult in here, its pressence is not helping with anything and it can be very frustrating to take down, even for the better built teams.
 
Movepool:
Draga's Movepool don't look bright but is bloody colorful for sure. sure draga is weak to pursuit but there aint no pursuit user in this tier that don't crumble to at least one of Draga's options; You scouted and know draga is specs, so you send Mtar right? well BOOM it had hydro pump, clean 2HKO, ggwp. You got your Lum Berry Gambit ready to take Draga on? well it Fire Blasted you by predicting your Pursuit. that might not happen exactly like this but these are options this fraud's got. oh and if I feel like it I could justify running Thunder in rain, smacking pex and Molt, which are supposed to have "good MUs" into it.

First of all
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Hydro Pump vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 170-202 (46.7 - 55.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

Not a “clean” 2hko, about the same chance as a focus blast. Also, specs pult probably never fits hydro pump and I swear I have never got hydro pumped by a pult. And losing your ttar to specs pult hydro is 100% skill issue 0% pult issue. And some obscure move on an objectively bad set kind of twisting a matchup (not really) is not a ban argument in any way. These moves are not “options” for pult, considering the choice lock and the still kinda mid numbers on the super effective hit. I bet that a draco/fire blast/ hydro/ whatever pult will get trapped every single time against half decent ttar/gambit users, the best outcome is pult getting a kill BEFORE the trapping. Specs pult is bad specifically because it is so easy to pursuit trap.

:Dragapult: Comes in, but does not take damage from rocks. Means its heavy duty boots, so you know the :kingambit: or :tyranitar-mega: in the back of your team can take care of it. You pin it down with Pursuit, but before you can do that.... Oh no! It used will-o-wisp on your pursuit trappers, making them pretty useless for the rest of the game. At most, Gambit is now gonna do a bit of damage with his attacks if it gets a big overlord boost and ttar can only get rocks up now and get some items knocked. That's the problem with pult. No matter where it is in a game, it can do at least a trade and still get value.

That’s still not a good trade. Losing a full mon for crippling a mon which has already performed its primary duty effectively (and can still perform its secondary duty) is kinda bad. Alakazam (non-mega) can straight up blow your ttar to pieces with focus blast or live the pursuit with magic guard sash. Getting the ttar burned for a kill is, while annoying, a whole lot better.

The reality of the pult vs pursuit matchup is that you still do NOT want your pult to die, it is not even close to an equal trade.
 
Everyone has pretty much said my thoughts on pult so I’m going to keep it short, I am also a person who reached the suspects for dragapult and will be voting ban for it, here's my pros and cons on it however.

Pros:

Speed:
In the teambuilder, pult has amazing role compression just due to its speed stat, this allows it to be the main speed control and coupled with U-turn helps enable its teammates better, also a semi spin blocker which is great for hazard stack builds.

Defensively:

Dragapults natural bulk and typing is amazing, with will-o-wisp it helps soften the strong physical attackers running around the tier like Zamazenta. Additionally, its base type is very useful for checking mons like a boosted volcarona in a pinch if needed or preventing mons like tusk from getting its spin off.

Offensively:
Just due to its speed and great stab options, pult is amazing at checking other popular offensive mons like roaring moon. Its presence maintains the power level at a steady pace in battle because it is able to revenge kill a lot of the offensive threats, which helps keep them from being overwhelming.
For example, mons like dragonite need jolly to outpace pult, otherwise it risks getting dragon darted. On Top of this, being able to maintain offensive momentum against the fat, as I mentioned earlier, is an amazing tool that enables your own team's offense.


Cons:

Utility:

I have seen alot of mention of popular dark types like ttar and tinglu that people brought up that checks pult, I find these guys to be decent at best. The problem with having these guys check pult, is because of two factors: Will-o-wisp and U turn.
Will-o-wisp is frankly broken on this guy, and it helps it live stuff it has no business doing such as a pursuit from tyranitar and kingambit. Will-o-wisp allows it to pretty much disable the few checks it has running around and does a great job at actively wearing down these checks down over the game, when hazards are up, allows pult to strive considering these are teams usual few ways to keep the pult back.

U-turn is another impressive tool, being able to pivot on these dark types has alot of mind games in play then people think. The problem with u-turn is that it is mostly a risk free click that does a good job at baiting the dark types for something else to deal with them. Although gambit and ttar are good trappers, they hate getting baited in and U-turn on, because not only does this move do considerable damage to them, but it also baits in the mons who pressure them causing them to switch and the mind games to restart again. Now you're probably telling yourself “Well, just dont hard swap in the gambit/ttar” It’s a lot harder to try and position these darks into positions where they just happen to be in front of the pults face when pult enjoys clicking u turn or spreading wisps around when they are alive in order to avoid them. Of course there are ways around this problem, but it's just something to keep in mind, because the situation isn’t simply “just swap and trap them bro” it’s a bit more complex than that. Also notice how I didn't mention ting much? Well thats because it's a pretty poor pult check, it gets wisped then u turned on ruination is nice but its alot worse at checking pult compared to tar and gambit.

Substitute:

Sub is a move I have seen some people slot in for dragon dance sets and I can see why, it can often just ruin fat mons who try to defensively keep it in check or want to pivot away. Sub is also a great way to make the mind games easier to dance around when people are trying to bait in your z so they can revenge kill you.

Z moves:

This is the main reason I wanted pult gone personally, Z pult is absurd and is honestly a free kill in general. Z moves in general are always going to be nukes, but what makes Pult a particular broken z move user is just due to the fact: Ghost-Z is an amazing offensive Z move in general, so having a nuke stab option is great and the fact its just impossible to revenge kill when it gets a boost. Earlier on I mentioned how great its regular bulk is and that still applies here, this mon never has problems getting up the dance and nuking something, and what makes Z even more unbearable to deal with is the fact it has a free moveslot. This moveslot is often used for will-o-wisp but I still do see sub variants as well, which are scary on their own right, but to put it simply I feel that when you aren't running a gambit/ttar something will straight up explode and there's not much you can do about it. Yes, it's great that pult does not have the ghost stab to click as reliably anymore, but being able to force 5v6 is greatly in pults favor and not to mention it still has that +1 darts which hits a lot of the tier alot and even raw phantom forces can be helpful.

Overall Checks:

I also feel like just in general, when you don't run the bulky dark type then the entire tier is just prey to pults stabs in general. I keep mentioning gambit/ttar because these feel like the only real answers to pult here, other options like toxapex can still lose to z variants of pult when not scouted correctly. Some less used variants are also like specs which I find to be amazing just because to deal with gambit/ttar u really only need to set up a spike and click u turn until they die, then you just click ur stabs.

Overall consensus:

Just due to how versatile pult is and how nuclear Z is, I will be voting to ban it. Although I can appreciate the good it brings for the tier, I do not feel like we need more handicaps in the builder to deal with how annoying it can be to check.
 
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Ok got my reqs so ima comment now, ladders still stupid easy never met one competent pult user and I just stalled the whole way so they couldnt touch me even if they were. Pult is very warping on the meta and with the sheer set versatility between abilities, sets and utility makes it a very coinflippy mon to predict at high level. I will be voting ban as I think its simply too fast for a mon with such set versatility, having various and unpredictable sets with different counters and checks is fine but not on the fastest relevant mon in the tier. Something I feel isnt discussed enough is how it enabled brain dead pivots that can normally be exploited through substitute by just bypassing the sub with infiltrator after the pivot which i feel is very unhealthy and just leads to people molamaxxing all the time.

pultreqs2.PNG


Shoutout the one guy in 1500s who beat me with loaded dice rock blast ttar ruined my flawless run ggs.
 
first time getting reqs yippie yahoo :D

this mon is absolutely disgusting bastardbroken. i find it unfathomable that so many people think the fucking weedspeed dragon isnt unhealthy when it gets to either wisp/twave hex spam you to death and/or be a lategame menace with clearbody dd ghostium. i think so many people focus on pult as a defensive presence and they seem to find its offensive capabilities lacking, which i guess is fair if we are running 2 fat pult answers. pult devours anything slower than it and it can even escape mtar pursuit if it wisps on the switch which like fucking what? are we serious? if the fucking pursuit trapper loses more from pursuit trapping the victim i think thats a sign that something is extremely fucking amiss.

to get my actual points into a more coherent format that doesn't resemble the scratches on an asylum wall:
1. as oculars said, pult enables the most absolute braindead teambuilding on the users side and has the most drool-pilled zero-downside gameplan in every single game it is in.

2. it gates so many mons out of the format because they simply cannot touch dragapult without scarf

3. there are three (real) pokemon that can actually punish a pult entry, being :tyranitar-mega:, :kingambit:, and :tapu-fini:. the former two get wisped and thus insanely crippled for the rest of the game, with pult even being able to escape from mtar if it wisps it on the switch

4. the guesswork and in-game budgeting required to pin down pult without a trapper or fini is completely asinine

To start, pult gives you a CONSTANT out as the user. it's a guaranteed burn or twave on 90% of the metagame, and with access to a strong draco or just constant pivoting and repeatedly exploiting its extremely strong typing. Since so few mons can both absorb status AND resist ghost/dragon, finding an actual pult answer is EXTREMELY slim pickings. as someone who historically enjoys bulkier offenses, this is fine, i love mtar, fini and gambit, but building without one of these leads you to feel extremely bound by that decision each and every game. we're seeing more ting, which is nice, but it cant take burn damage + repeated u-turns the entire game. this level of unpunishability leads to absolute teeth-grinding matches where one must step on eggshells to try and parse out which set pult is running while getting forced out for fear of wisp and u-turned on incessantly. imagine this scenario:

your zamazenta is in. you have a tapu lele, a volcarona, a scarf hrott, and a melmetal in the back. dragapult daniel sends in pult. he has a ferrothorn in the back. what can you do?
-staying in with zama could lead to it getting burned and losing its dauntless shield, and thus becoming absolutely worthless. far too risky of an option, especially since you'll want to have it to break ferro
-scarf hrott can absorb a shadow ball or ghostium hex and kill back, but it hates getting wisped too, and then he can just u-turn out, tank the ceaseless, and go to ferro
-an av melm can tank the ghostium, a draco, AND ddarts, but it despises getting wisped and cant really touch ferrothorn all too well.
-lele takes a wisp just fine and obviously doesnt care about dragon stab, but getting 2hkod by 65bp hex is fucking brutalllllll and if it ddances + phantom forces you're absolutely cooked
-volc absorbs burn, punishes u-turn (potentially), and can comfortably take a hex, but hex + ddarts is an instakill.

obviously, scouting the set is important to do early, but there is no other mon that can just force a catch-22 inshallah moment like this.

quite a few mons get much better after a theoretical pult exit, notably :zamazenta:, :tapu-lele:, :iron-crown:, ~:gliscor:, :ogerpon-wellspring:, :roaring-moon:, and :medicham-mega:. i think if you ban pult the meta probably ironically gets a bit faster on average, as frail and fast attackers are no longer under the constant 421 speed check to get instantly crippled or obliterated
i'm 1000% voting ban on this disgusting freak.




AND the little bastard still loses to the fucking fish. prick
 
Well after quite a bit of thinking and laddering I’ve finally decided to vote ban. I’m gonna explain my reasoning below as well as some arguments for and against ban.

Set #1: Utility Pult

Utility is an incredible set that contributes in multiple ways. It offers great speed control, a fast pivot, and can spread status in wisp or t-wave. It can use hex to still out good damage on statused targets, while also using infiltrator to hit past screens or substitute.

Utility Pult is by far the most balanced set as it doesn’t feel overwhelming to fight, but can be annoying. Particularly do to it being able to wisp T-tar and Gambit trying to pursuit trap it. Overall tho it’s relatively fine.


Set #2: Specs Pult

This set is also fine. It pretty much just spams shadow ball and draco meteor. It acts as a good late game cleaner + speed control and fast pivot. It can use infiltrator to hit past screens and substitutes just like utility Pult.

Specs Pult is far easier to deal with as it can’t usually wisp T-tar and Gambit trying to pursuit trap it. But it can flamethrower a Gambit but it only 2 shots non av sets if I remember correctly, meaning you can’t just hard switch risk free. Definitely a fine set and probably more healthy than utility.


Set #3: DD Pult

This is the problem set. We all know what DD Pult does, click dragon dance once or twice and start pressing buttons. Before addressing the Z shaped elephant in the room I wanna highlight some of the other, less talked about, broken things about DD Pult. It always has a 4th move slot that can rotate between a myriad of moves. Want physical attackers to cry(mostly gambit)? Run wisp. Want to set up stop pesky status and make gambit cry? Run substitute. Want to be even faster? Run t-wave. Want priority for some reason? Run sucker punch. Wanna switch out on something? Run U-turn. The amount of random moves that can get throw into this final slog and work is insane and is part of the reason checking it is so hard. Gambit would wall Pult. But wisp and sub can make it far more difficult. Two last small points before we turn to Z move part. Pult has such stupid speed that it runs adamant and still outspends most the meta game. This is just insanely stupid. Also it gets clear body, so it isn’t effected by intimidate or sticky web which just makes it even harder to counter.

Finally we arrive at the thing that breaks DD Pult. Ghostium Z. In both SV and SS Ou Pult can not learn any good physical ghost type moves, making DD Pult non existent there. However in Nat Dex Pult has access to a one time ghost typed nuclear bomb. Usually in the course of a game Pult really only needs to use a ghost move once to blow past a fairy or steel, meaning the one time use isn’t too big of a problem. It does cause you to be able to predict the Z, but predicting wrong can be detrimental. All in all DD Pult is very problematic as it’s very difficult to counter and even it’s best counters like gambit aren’t foolproof and can be significantly worn down/statused to take it out.


Set #4: Banded Pult

I don’t think this set exists, but it may so I’ll mention it here anyways. It’s just worse specs. You get a higher attacking stab, but worse coverage and loose a very spamable stap in ghost. Definitely not a good set.


Set #5: Screens Pult

Like band this set isn’t too common, however unlike band this set is good. It can set screens well and spread status well. Good but niche



As a surprise to absolutely nobody Pult has a metric ton of sets. I fact to help I’m going to link a couple of boxes with every single (reasonable)Pult set I can think of and once I have seen other players use.
https://pokepast.es/2f3e30bcb6e6e4b0
That’s 14 sets. While sure you can rule ouy screen sets if it’s not HO and utility of it is HO. That’s still on average 10 sets with very different counter play. The only mons I can think of that counters every single set is Gambit, T-Tar and Ting Lu(my goat). And even then T-Tar and Gambit don’t wanna be burned, and Gambit can be two shot by a specs flamethrower even with an assault vest. While Ting Lu doesn’t like being burned or taking u-turn chip, meaning it can be worn down.


Pult adds a lot to the meta through its speed tier

While yes having a fast pivot is nice, Koko and M-Lop do exist and would greatly benefit from Pult leaving the tier. It’s not as though there are other splashable options like Pult.

It has common checks

each dragapult set has clear weaknesses and checks that are ultimately not unreasonable to have to build around especially when a kingambit or ttar alone if healthy can trade for it.
While this is true the key words are “each dragapult set”. Switching to Mola expecting a DD and getting hit by a Draco can be detrimental. And even then if you think a check is coming in you can always just U-Turn for absolutely free.


All in all I started off not sure what to vote and ended up firmly in the ban camp. This thing is disgustingly in its set variety and how restrictive it can be. It limits the fast pivot role as a whole. Also it abuses its children by launching them at, to quote the Pokédex, “mach speeds”.

Also as always feel free to disagree with me and correct me on any mistakes I may have made. I’m gonna go eat some pizza.
 
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Pult adds a lot to the meta through its speed tier
So I'm actually gonna be a contrarian to this common anti-ban argument and say that, at least for me personally, I find that Pult's speed tier is actually quite warping in a way that I don't find positive in the grand scheme of things. This of course is largely BECAUSE of how dangerous Pult naturally is, and it's a pokemon that so naturally gets many opportunities thanks to that peerless speed and great typing which makes it difficult to offensively catch without Priority, Pursuit or specific scarfers, and thus wearing it down can be a challenge especially if it's rocking Boots.

This brings me to where I stand, which is that I intend to vote BAN on Dragapult. I wasn't really sure where I stood initially after finishing laddering for reqs which ended up happening early in the suspect and that left time to sit on and think about the mon. DD+Z to me doesn't have a particularly large list of responses, with really only Unaware Phys Clef, Ting-Lu, Mega Tyranitar and Kingambit being consistent into it. There is Terapagos which is a check in the event that Tera Shell is active and Pult is low enough that Ice Beam can pick it off, or if you can bait the Z out. Regarding the four "consistent" checks I listed, Unaware Clef is quite a specific choice and while not a bad pokemon, it having to drop Magic Guard means it's less splashable and thus harder to fit by comparison (and you're losing out on MG Clef which is overall a better Pokemon). MTtar and Kingambit guarantee its removal, but frequently have to effectively trade themselves due to many DD Pults carrying Will o Wisp which cripples them. I've seen some DNB players insist that it's a favorable trade in the Pursuit user's side, but consider how these burned pokemon now also give potential set up to one of Pult's teammates after it goes down, or at least entry for another huge threat to start causing havoc. So even in that scenario it still contributes quite heavily.

Which brings me to the major point. If you DON'T bring one of these few answers for DD Pult, you have to walk a very thin line so you don't let it come in and boost and at worst, break down a big hole in your team. I don't really enjoy the idea of "well Pursuit does remove it, so it MUST be fine" because I don't want to be expected to run Pursuit just to not auto fold (and btw I've seen some Boots Pult+Mola squads even run around Pursuit since it just burns Gambit/MTtar and pivots out, and get the Pursuit healed off later by Wish Mola). I also think Wisp in general is very busted on Pult in particular because there's very few Pokemon that can absorb it, or are unbothered by it, which for me also makes pivot sets quite obnoxious.

Having said all this, in addition to DD being very restrictive to account for and play against, I also think removing it will ease up teambuilding not just for not having to deal with DD Pult, but also because it will open up and encourage other speed control options that won't just be inferior. So as I said I'll be voting BAN and hope we can get this one out.
 
Not all votes are in, but no further votes can alter the result.

Eligible Voters: 72
Votes: 65

Dragapult
Ban: 44
Do Not Ban: 21
Ban % = 67.7%

60% pro-Ban majority is required for a ban, and no further Do Not Ban votes can alter the result. Therefore, Dragapult is now banned in SV National Dex OU. Tagging Marty and dhelmise to implement, thank you!

Thank you to all who have voted, DM me with links to your votes if you qualify for Tiering (or top) Contributor off of this!

Votes will be public at the deadline at the voting link above.
 
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