Announcement SV National Dex UU Stage 7.3: Break Through It All

[Danbear02]

With plenty of tier activity recently between the currently running Nat Dex Blind Draft and NDUU Winter Seasonal and the recent Nat Dex PL and FL tours, plenty of Pokemon have popped up as potential nuisances, but the Council has decided to suspect test Mega Gallade.​

Suspect Test Reasoning:

As seen by the recently posted survey results, it is hard to place which Pokemon is the most dangerous threat. Opinions are mixed regarding Aegislash, Hydrapple, Ursaluna, and others, with most scores being near the median. While Mega Gallade falls under this umbrella as well, it had the highest score in the survey, and following council discussion regarding the state of the metagame, we decided it best to handle Mega Gallade before tackling other potential problem Pokemon.

Mega Gallade is a fairly straightforward wallbreaker. With a monstrous 165 Attack stat and great speed putting it on par with Iron Moth and Mega Latias, Mega Gallade is able to bust through much of the slower offensive metagame at neutral and much more when boosted. Staples like Ting-Lu, Mega Venusaur, and Tyranitar are terrified of its STABs, and even options like Rotom-W, Celesteela, and Scizor, despite being neutral, are unable to stomach many hits from it. When considering that Mega Gallade often forces out the aforementioned staples and can use them as opportunities to set up Swords Dance, it becomes obvious why Mega Gallade is such a ferocious threat.

While at +2 Mega Gallade is quite threatening, the typical counterplay for such sweepers is often revenge killing. However, this is where Mega Gallade’s strengths become evident. Despite its low HP stat, Mega Gallade is deceptively bulky, able to handle attacks from faster attackers like Iron Boulder, Zeraora, and Choice Scarf Mienshao due to its decent physical bulk and typing. Its fantastic special bulk also allows take hits from Serperior and Choice Scarf Tapu Fini and Hydreigon. This often leaves little available counterplay to revenge kill a healthy Mega Gallade, with Mega Aerodactyl and Choice Scarf Victini the only options to handle a boosted Mega Gallade. Pair this with Mega Gallade’s ability to run sets with bulk investment and Drain Punch, and removing it becomes even more difficult.

Despite Mega Gallade’s prowess against the offensive metagame, it does have defensive checks. Physically bulky Pokemon that resist its attacks like Clefable and Slowbro are often able to stomach its hits and retaliate with attacks or status. Though Mega Gallade will often survive these interactions thanks to its bulk, it is often left crippled for the rest of the game. Additionally, Mega Gallade often has to choose between the power offered by Close Combat and maximum Attack investment, or the utility provided by a bulkier Drain Punch set. This, combined with options like Aegislash and Mega Latias that can often live even a boosted hit and retaliate for chip damage to allow faster allies to clean up, often allow teams to barely survive its onslaught. However, this counterplay is not quite enough to dissuade the council from suspecting Mega Gallade.

	Aegislash	Mega Gallade	Hydrapple	Ursaluna	Garganacl Retest
Rafadude	Suspect (3)	Suspect (1)	Suspect (2)	Suspect (5)	Retest (4)
Runo	Suspect (2)	Suspect (1)	Suspect (3)	Suspect (4)	Retest (5)
Niadev	Suspect (2)	Quickban	Suspect (1)	Suspect (4)	Retest (3)
TBIC106	Suspect (4)	Suspect (1)	Suspect (2)	No action	Retest (3)
Danbear02	Suspect (2)	Suspect (1)	Suspect (3/4?)	No action	Retest (3/4?)

Suspect Test Information
The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account OR use an existing one with no National Dex UU games played (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played National Dex UU before the test, ever.) You do not have to follow any specific naming rule but your suspect account must have never played a game in National Dex UU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements.
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• After you linked your account, if you play one game with the alt, you have to play at least one game in order to verify and then do /rank in order to see the "Suspect Test elligible" message
• Example

  View attachment 686604
  [*]If this field says "No" then you have either not set up the account correctly or need to use a different/new account. You do not need to complete your entire reqs for this field to say "Yes"
• After you believe that you have achieved reqs, double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact Danbear02, Niadev, or any staff member.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted.
• We will be using the regular National Dex UU ladder for this suspect test, and Gallade-Mega will remain legal throughout the entire suspect test.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 3000 with a B-Value of 3.
• estimated games required

  75.5	313
  76	153
  76.5	106
  77	80
  77.5	64
  78	54
  78.5	46
  79	41
  79.5	36
  80	33
  80.5	30
  81	28
  81.5	26
  82	24
  82.5	22
  83	20

  [*]

The suspect test will last until March 10th 11:59 PM GMT -8. Tagging dhelmise and Marty to implement the suspect on ladder whenever possible! Thanks a lot!

​

Edit: For those of you wondering about the Suspect Tours, due to limited interesting and player quantity, we will not be continuing with these Tours.​

 

[Iride]

Announcement Post in thread 'Gen 9 SV National Dex UU Metagame Discussion'

Feb 9, 2025

Genuinely find myself stumped on an introduction here -



Let's talk about Gallade.

More people have been catching onto it, and I think we've reached a point where it's established itself at the very forefront. Despite no shortage of fast wallbreakers, this Pokemon's umbrella of offensive traits and consistency make it an elite pick and deserving of a place above most of its competition.



M-Gallade has always been a potent wallbreaker on its own, but what changes in particular are so drastic as to warrant such a huge rise?

For starters, the tier...

• Iride

• 
• 

Not going to make another post on my stance in particular, seeing as I've already done that elsewhere, but with how conflicted some people can be around a suspect test outcome, here are a few general points I'd like to help conceptualize to anyone unfamiliar.

1. We can't ban M-Gallade because of its role in checking other serious threats (eg: Boulder / Mienshao / M-Venusaur .etc)

To me, the biggest fallacies of this argument hinge on its misguided approach to the tiering philosophy, where its applications to this suspect test suggest the optics of warping the system itself to allow certain threats to remain in the tier, even if it leads to a 'broken checks broken' dynamic. I'm certainly no expert, but if there's one thing I can say for sure, it's that with or without Gallade in the tier - these threats will have adequate time to be examined, and whether or not their presence will remain tolerable should be treated as an entirely separate matter to this test's outcome.


2. M-Gallade's has viable, competitive counterplay / just use certain Pokemon

tl;dr

*as ordered by viability + mons with usage in recent tournament games
Counter: *Unaware

Hard Check: *Magic Guard

Soft Check:

Offensive Counterplay: *Sand Rush | () | ()

This is roughly all the M-Gallade counterplay in the tier, ordered by Counter (will win in any common scenario relative to moveset and play pattern), Hard Check (wins in the majority of / has outs to most scenarios against it), Soft Check (able to stop in a vacuum), and Offensive Counterplay (able to revenge kill under respective circumstances if given entry).

As for addressing the semantics itself, I feel it is most important to consider whether or not A. this pool of counterplay is sufficient enough to keep such a significant threat, and B. if these options are sustainable enough both in checking Gallade itself and other scenarios so as to justify their roles in teambuilding. As for the suspect itself, the OP also does a great job of explaining how recent tier trends (both related to Gallade and the variety of its counterplay) have shifted these dynamics so as to make M-Gallade feel increasingly polarizing, often to the extent that it tends to force significant reprecussions on the majority of teams, which should be taken as a sign. To anyone interested in further details about how Gallade specifically interacts with each of its counterplay options, I highly encourage you all to review other people's posts on M-Gallade as well as the OP itself, as they all go far more in-depth about this.


3. M-Gallade usage / winrate is low, isn't this antithetical to its influence or whether or not it is broken?

Its low usage is also a byproduct of its status as a Mega Evolution, where the unique opportunity cost of using it over the similarly effective Latias, Venusaur, and Aerodactyl are present. While Gallade may not be the perfect fit for every team, I feel this is important because of how it fails to address the context of this suspect test, which is based on how the central community views its influence. If anything, I believe this argument's perceived sense of security only makes Gallade even more constraining in practice because of how many common teamstyles it shuts down, which can be reflected in how recent changes to the metagame are forced to accommodate for it in ways that are shown to be far more undesirable than previous iterations.

 

[Danbear02]

This will probably be more word-soupy bc I'm too tired to properly format this.

I want to talk about my main frustrations with Mega Gallade beyond its absurd power or metagame share or whatever other issues it has.

As much of a stall-head as I can tend to be, I typically load exclusively offensive structures in tour games, i.e. when it matters, because stall tends to be somewhat of a fishy playstyle. When it comes to threats that are hard to wall, obviously the stall brain goes "OO BAN". But I think the issue here is Gallade's influence on Balanced and Bulky playstyles. My main frustration with Gallade is the lack of viable offensive counterplay. Actually my first thought when I started thinking about this was "damn we really banned all the offensive counterplay (Ace, Weav, Meow)" but funnily enough Gallade can actually live most hits from these demons. Regardless the list of Offensive Counterplay stops at around 2 mons: Mega Aerodactyl and Aegislash. I know I included Scarf Victini in main post but Scarf Vic has a 56.3% chance to OHKO Gallade with V-create, and cannot OHKO Bulky Gallade from full, which is utterly deranged.

The main issue with offensive counterplay vs Gallade means that bascially every other speed control options goes out the window. While this is already partly true just because of how good Aerodactyl has started to prove itself to be, this means options like Zeraora and Iron Boulder as well as Choice Scarfers like Mienshao, Keldeo, Rotom-W, Tapu Fini, and Hydreigon are basically unviable. This is problematic because it dramatically decreases options in the teambuilder and hugely centralizes the type of teams one can use. Looking through my teambuilder, ALL of my teams have either Clefable, TWave Slowbro, or Aerodactyl on them. There is exactly 1 team that doesn't have one of those three, and that one has Pidgeot to revenge kill it, as well as Aegislash/Bulu/Rotom to pressure Gallade well.

This type of teambuilding strain means I can't test other ideas because the moment I deviate from the norm, I get punished for anything new by Gallade. While each of these Mons are good options apart from checking Gallade, I bascially have to start building with 1 teamslot accounted for. And of course these Pokemon are fairly splashable, with Aerodactyl fitting on most offensive teams and Clefable and Slowbro fitting on defensive squads, but this means I can't explore with things like Offensive Mega Venusaur or actually off-meta options like Goodra-Hisui without feeling fairly pigeonholed into specific structures. The main problem is using these options also introduce certain holes that other Pokemon MUST fill, meaning that starting with Clefable, Slowbro, or Aerodactyl as the first slot means you probably have to devote 1-2 teamslots to patch up their weaknesses; Clefable's glaring weakness to Moth and Venusaur, Slowbro's complete inability to handle Band TTar and potential struggle vs Sand Rush Excadrill, and Aerodactyl's Stealth Rock weakness (MAero is kinda insane ngl). Oh don't forget, Clefable and Slowbro don't actually beat Gallade if they switch on SD, they just threaten a Paralysis if they avoid the Zen Headbutt flinch, meaning you need something else that can actually remove Gallade once it is crippled.

And of course a lot of the offensive counterplay that relies on Gallade being chipped, like Zeraora using Volt Switch to wear it down or Scizor/non-Z Aegislash picking it off from medium health, is completely sidestepping by Drain Punch. You don't even have to be a bulky variant; Iride has used Close Combat / Knock Off / Drain Punch sets numerous times to success. This thing is just so frustrating to have to deal with while also trying to handle other arguable brokens like Hydrapple, Aegislash, Aerodactyl, etc.

I just realized I forgot that Scarf Enamorus is also an option to revenge kill Gallade, but Bulky Gallade has A 44% CHANCE TO LIVE SCARF MOONBLAST! This mon sucks so much to have to deal with in the builder. Please ban it.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I'm against Banning Mlade. It's manageable, can't kill its Counters Nearly at all, can be revenge Killed, and is vulnerable to aegi's Prio Shadow sneak. Mlade is a solid mon, hard to wall once it gets SD up, but not impossible. moreover, There are Flying types that outspeed OHKO it, may it be Crobat, Smogon Bird or whatever. Offense teams have to use specific mons, but they're not terrible mons either, while bulkier teams can use the checks we have. Mlade is strong but not quite broken or unhealthy imo.

Oh yea and I'm Biased I aint beatin the allegations on that one

 

[Danbear02]

I'm against Banning Mlade. It's manageable, can't kill its Counters Nearly at all, can be revenge Killed, and is vulnerable to aegi's Prio Shadow sneak. Mlade is a solid mon, hard to wall once it gets SD up, but not impossible. moreover, There are Flying types that outspeed OHKO it, may it be Crobat, Smogon Bird or whatever. Offense teams have to use specific mons, but they're not terrible mons either, while bulkier teams can use the checks we have. Mlade is strong but not quite broken or unhealthy imo.

Oh yea and I'm Biased I aint beatin the allegations on that one

Calc vs Unaware Clefable
252 Atk Gallade-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 138-163 (35 - 41.3%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Calc vs Magic Guard Clefable
+2 252 Atk Gallade-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Calc vs Slowbro
+2 252 Atk Gallade-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 340-402 (86.2 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

The Slowbro calc is especially notable because if Slowbro ever absorbs status from Hippowdon or Rotom or Celesteela then you just explode.

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gallade-Mega: 174-206 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade-Mega: 158-188 (57 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade-Mega: 248-294 (89.5 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Gallade-Mega: 248-294 (81.3 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade-Mega: 228-270 (82.3 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not only can Mega Gallade full well beats its Counters (and Checks), but a lot of the counterplay mentioned doesn't actually KO Gallade from full, where it tends to reside due to how easily it forces out defensive options like Celesteela and Ting Lu in fear or teammates like Iron Moth or Hydrapple that can take advantage of their primary checks being weakened.

 

[Elvira]

As a person who often plays this very fun tier below NDOU, I would like to chime in for the first time in a while for any new players or returning/regular ones who see this suspect.




Personally at first glance; no this doesn't look very threatening. A mon that gets checked by the likes of Clefable, Iron Boulder after necessary chip + Z move, perhaps even by Maero?

You'd be right in stating that yes. But that isn't the overlining issue when it comes to Mega Gallade. Even dating back to its debut generation its always been a Swords Dance style sweeper. It has the capability per match to snowball teams that aren't defensively able to stop it from flat out setting up, throwing damage around left and right, or even setting up and doing the later option. To put it simple, its a little on both ends of the stick.

And by that I mean that it can be easily KO'd with its base speed and a variety of mon's that can outspeed and hit it hard (Examples like & arguably are three that instantly come to mind.), well yes. A base 350 mon is very easy, in prep, to be taken into consideration and to plan for. But what about the other end of the stick? What if someone wants to play Bulky Offense, Stall (lol..), or Offense WITHOUT speed control? And what if every mon out of 6 isn't able to efficiently find a way to stop Mega Gallade from setting up?

.
.
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"B-But Elvira! We have defensive checks such as , , (defensive), , " You'd be right. 100% whole heartedly you would be correct. However unless you run MAX MAX on everything on that list to only specifically counter Mega Gallade you fall flat on its teammates. But teammates aside, lets put this into consideration. Once Mega Gallade is able to remotely setup even at most 1 Swords Dance you find and fall into a dilemma. Mega Gallade has access to, though restricted, somewhat complimentary coverage to deal with just about every single last one of these checks. Knock Off is one of its best answers to its Ghost-type checks to not only deal great damage but to also remove the lovely likes of . Triple Axel can be ran past its usual other oppressive stab in Zen Headbutt to deal with flyers. Zen Headbutt is just a great means of breaking through bulky Poisons. Close Combat, though obviously deals with Darks, still is just a means of removing really anything both Super Effectively and Neutral.



Overall, Mega Gallade can leave a shred through teams that just are not prepared for it what so ever. Personally I will be doing reqs and I will be voting ban.

 

[Runo]

Voting for Mega Gallade is open, if you are a qualified voter you can vote here: https://www.smogon.com/tools/suspects/view/86

Deadline will be Thursday 13th at 11:59pm GMT -4

List of qualified voters:
Nakoruru_XD
Elvira
Runo
Iride
Cheezy
Zangoose5000
Danbear02
mrfraud

 

[Runo]

Yeah so this didn't even take a full hour

• Mega Gallade: Ban (5/6 = 83.33%)
• Mega Gallade: Do Not Ban (1/6 = 16.67%)

50% +1 pro-ban majority of ban is required for a ban, and no further Do Not Ban votes can alter the result. Therefore, Mega Gallade is now banned from SV National Dex UU. Tagging Marty and dhelmise to implement, thank you!

Thank you to all who have voted. The vote will remain open for until the deadline at Thursday 13th at 11:59pm GMT -4 to allow the remaining people with voting requirements to vote and have their vote count towards the Tiering Contributor badge if they so please. I will close voting at this time.

Votes will be made public at the formal deadline.