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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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aww hell no ban this item if this true no way palifin can now run the bulk up set with a band boost and who knows about other abusers who are out right now. Of course when urshifu and melmetal already ran pads and this is just pads on giga steroids for the moves they already ran
I wouldn't say ban it maybe nerf it
I'm guessing it's probably Chien Pao then, with a minor chance of it being Houndstone. I think Palafin with the Bulk Up set is more obviously broken than both of these mons, but oh well.
That's up to Gamefreak only, not Smogon/Shodown, unfortunately.
no such thing as nerfs in a cartridge-accurate format. if you want something like that you should come check out pet mods :)
It's not going to be Chien-Pao. Finchinator gave the hint "spooky" so it's going to be 2 ghost types.
I think palafin and houndstone are riding on the ho extravaganza to be broken more than themselves. I'd like to play with them a bit before the council tries to ban them tbh. I could see palafin still being an issue, but imo houndstone is more limited and easier to predict than vish.
Also I feared that last gens dmax (completely correct action) would lead into this: I'm not here to defend tera (I'm mixed on it), but some posts have felt less like arguing about its issues and more like "well its a gimmick so just ban it" or "dmax was broken so this will be too". Tera isn't nearly as bad as dmax, and probably deserves a more careful analysis after a month of so of experience, instead of rushing a ban out because it ought to be banned. If its brokenness is conclusive, good, it gets the boot, but I'd rather it be done well than on the first week of a gen lol
Also I feared that last gens dmax (completely correct action) would lead into this: I'm not here to defend tera (I'm mixed on it), but some posts have felt less like arguing about its issues and more like "well its a gimmick so just ban it" or "dmax was broken so this will be too". Tera isn't nearly as bad as dmax, and probably deserves a more careful analysis after a month of so of experience, instead of rushing a ban out because it ought to be banned. If its brokenness is conclusive, good, it gets the boot, but I'd rather it be done well than on the first week of a gen lol
Once Mane is gone, I think we're gonna see an explosion in Bundle usage. The speed tier is crazy, outpacing everything in the meta with a booster energy. Obliterates the tentative bulk core of Dondozo and Clodsire. Good physical bulk eats all the pervasive priority in the tier. I see this thing being banned within a week.
Hey, so given the current hype around BU Palafin, I wanted to share a core that does quite well into the Dolphin.
Iron Bundle @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Freeze-Dry
- Flip Turn
- Encore
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Roost
- Defog
Fairly basic idea here, being that Palafin often wants to get setup against Corv, as corv can do very little into it, so you can U-turn into Bundle on the Bulk Up turn, and then Encore it into Bulk Up, and then KO it, without worrying about Freeze Dry only doing 75% to the dolphin. Beyond that, Encore Bundle just has a ton of utility into offensive builds, as you can trap an opponent into setup that is now useless, or Encore a mon into Sucker and just sorta sit on it. I'd rec pairing this core with a secondary answer to Palafin, but this is enough to really just help a ton into it.
Iron Bundle @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Freeze-Dry
- Flip Turn
- Encore
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Roost
- Defog
Fairly basic idea here, being that Palafin often wants to get setup against Corv, as corv can do very little into it, so you can U-turn into Bundle on the Bulk Up turn, and then Encore it into Bulk Up, and then KO it, without worrying about Freeze Dry only doing 75% to the dolphin. Beyond that, Encore Bundle just has a ton of utility into offensive builds, as you can trap an opponent into setup that is now useless, or Encore a mon into Sucker and just sorta sit on it. I'd rec pairing this core with a secondary answer to Palafin, but this is enough to really just help a ton into it.
And if Palafin Jet Punches Bundle?
.
Second Wave ban surely? I don't see anything handling this set consistently
Palafin@ Leftovers
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Taunt
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
BU Palafin will get 100% banned at this rate, encore Iron Bundle seems quite desperate tbh lolHey, so given the current hype around BU Palafin, I wanted to share a core that does quite well into the Dolphin.
Iron Bundle @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Freeze-Dry
- Flip Turn
- Encore
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Roost
- Defog
Fairly basic idea here, being that Palafin often wants to get setup against Corv, as corv can do very little into it, so you can U-turn into Bundle on the Bulk Up turn, and then Encore it into Bulk Up, and then KO it, without worrying about Freeze Dry only doing 75% to the dolphin. Beyond that, Encore Bundle just has a ton of utility into offensive builds, as you can trap an opponent into setup that is now useless, or Encore a mon into Sucker and just sorta sit on it. I'd rec pairing this core with a secondary answer to Palafin, but this is enough to really just help a ton into it.
Second Wave ban surely? I don't see anything handling this set consistently
Palafin@ Leftovers
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Taunt
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
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Like...so? Man, I do not like seeing these types of comments. Why are you people so hellbent on making Pokemon a watered-down version of Chess? I will never understand. Pokemon is full of RNG. That will never change, and there ain't nothing you or anyone can do about that. Not every OU match needs to contain the same ~15 mons using the same tired movesets, and not every aspect of your opponent's team needs to be discernible right from the beginning of every battle. Even Team Preview didn't exist until Gen 5, and competitive was just fine without each player knowing their opponent's entire team. "Whoa, there is something I can't account for". My dude, you're playing Pokemon. Not being able to guess Tera Types, Arceus Formes, or Hidden Power Type (remember that move that could be 17 different Types that NO ONE ever had a problem with? XD) is no big deal. 90% accurate attacks miss all the time, and countless battles are lost to Critical Hits, Scald burns, and Ice Beam/Ice Punch freeze. Why not complain about your opponent's hold item and movesets being hidden while you're at it?
So you can't guess the Tera Type of a mon. Who cares? You'll know it once they transform, and only 1 mon can Tera per battle. "Oh but they'll transform on a crucial turn, and use a boosting move while morphing into a Ground-Type on my Electric attack."
Ok? That just sounds like a legit strat to me. Like honestly...the only real argument "ban Tera" people have is the 33% power boost (that you ONLY get when morphing into one of your STABs, NOT when morphing into a new Type), and even then, Adaptability has been doing that for years with no problem, and Hidden Power has been Tera Blast for years with no problem. People losing their mind over Terastal simply letting Pokemon change Type is 100% y'all not wanting to change OU's stale formula of predictability it's had since XY. God forbid a common defensive Pokemon changes into a Grass Type to stop your cookie-cutter Barraskewda Rain team from steamrolling them out of existence. Oh the humanity.
Like, jesus. Y'all REALLY wanna play Gen 6, 7, and 8 again? Because they've all been the same shit pretty much (yes, even with Megas). Even Gen 5 was more fun than these. Infinite Weather allowed for creative strats like mono-attacking Rock Arceus in Sandstorm (SpD boost) with Judgment/Refresh/CM/Recover, and Sub-CM Jirachi with Rain-boosted Water Pulse with 40% confusion, perfectly accurate Thunder with 60% para, and effectively only 1 weakness in the Rain (Ground). And Gen 9's Terastal is actually bringing the fun back, but you guys want to ban it instantly and return to Gen 8 basically smh
If anything, your comment has made it clear that every future gimmick will be banned from Smogon OU as they will all contain intentional luck factor to shake games up and make them fun, even if they aren't as heinous as Dynamax. With that being said, maybe you should start embracing the generation gimmicks (unless you like boring, predictable metagames)
P.S. i better not see "b-but Tera gives everyone Adaptability" as if that renders my Adaptability example useless. If 2x STAB is so ungodly overpowered, why weren't Crawdaunt and Porygon-Z banned years ago? *gasp* maybe Wallbreakers are just really strong, and NOT meta-warping.
"B-but Mega Lucario got banned"
Mega Lucario has 145/140 offenses, 112 Speed, 4x resistance to everyone's favorite entry hazard, and a godly movepool including the strongest Priority in the game, Swords Dance AND Nasty Plot, spammable STABs on both sides of the spectrum with ~120 Power and no recoil, High Jump Kick if you REALLY wanted to brute force past Physical walls it should not be able to at +2, and later a spammable STAB that raises its Attack stat 20% of the time. Adaptability was just the scapegoat. This also applies to Flutter Mane. It is crazy because of its stats, offensive Typing and movepool. Terastal is just a bonus for it.
Also, Terastal only gives 2x STAB for ONE Type. Your Tera Type. And ONLY if you Tera'd into one of your STAB Types NOT a new Type. So, like I said in my post on the other thread, if you are staring down a Fire Type that Tera'd into a Fire Type.....maybe consider switching into something that resists or is immune to Fire. Surely that is better than choosing the nuclear option and trying to ban everything you can't be bothered to deal with
Not this mixed Set:My guess is Flutter mane and the fucking zucaritas tiger, never had the chance to run palafin but 5 buckswalls it without ice punch
Palafin-Hero @ Life Orb
Level: 100
Naughty Nature
Ability: Zero to Hero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Boomburst
- Bulk Up
Edit: Now give me my 5 Bucks :P
I would be quite sad to see houndstone be banned right now, specially since he'd be worst after home release. Happens that basculegioun has swift swim and adaptability and with better speed, it's way bigger of a threat with that move than our fluffy boi ever will. Chien Pao and Flutter feel like bigger threats than him in my opinion but until the live we don't know so lets see
I was pleasantly surprised of this meta. Mimikyu Stardust was on showdown and gave me a defensive core that was pretty good and I ran this team with it: https://pokepast.es/9be8bd5334dec779
Got about 400 on the ladder with it but I need to switch to houndstone sand before it gets banned (: My shit GXE was from me trying to run hazard stack with goldengo, but the donphans spin all day on him and I couldn't find a good way to keep them from getting hazards off. A task for someone better than me. No spin blocker fairs will vs them and even contact punishment like defensive chomp didn't work very well and some carry icespinner.
-Tera normal on Clodsire for psyshock fluttermane and iron bundle. Also prevents you form insta-losing to houndstone.
-Tera fairy on dondozo for breloom, meowscarda, and iron hands
-Tera poison on garganacl lets you set up on a lot you shouldn't
- The two unaware mons are really really good right now. They seem borderline required on any slower team. I think a lot of teams are not prepped for them right now, especially dondozo. A lot of teams are even running water absorb clodsire instead of unaware for palafin (shit set honestly just run dondozo if you want to defensively blank palafin) so sweepers will just try to set up and do nothing.
-Dondozo is both really good and really shit at the same time. Those stats and unaware are awesome, but it is quite passive, and has to rely on rest. I keep going back and forth on rocky helmet vs lefties. There are a lot of situations where I needed lefties to wall something, but many times where rocky helmet chip would help this think not burn 10pp+ on attacks to kill one sweeper.
-These two will probably get prepped for more and more as time goes on so they might become bad. What could happen is after many offensive threats are banned, these two feel impossible to break. We will see as time goes on. I think a lot of the concessions in movesets they force are a little ridiculous and over specific.
-Garganacl is a series sleeper threat. Many teams just can't touch it and salt cure is great for helping this thing be less passive. I stole many wins with the mon.
-Terra is also 100% broken. Offensively especially but even defensively these unaware pokemon become even more frustrating with type changes.
Also the two mons getting banned are fluttermane and houndstone/last respects. (:
Got about 400 on the ladder with it but I need to switch to houndstone sand before it gets banned (: My shit GXE was from me trying to run hazard stack with goldengo, but the donphans spin all day on him and I couldn't find a good way to keep them from getting hazards off. A task for someone better than me. No spin blocker fairs will vs them and even contact punishment like defensive chomp didn't work very well and some carry icespinner.
-Tera normal on Clodsire for psyshock fluttermane and iron bundle. Also prevents you form insta-losing to houndstone.
-Tera fairy on dondozo for breloom, meowscarda, and iron hands
-Tera poison on garganacl lets you set up on a lot you shouldn't
- The two unaware mons are really really good right now. They seem borderline required on any slower team. I think a lot of teams are not prepped for them right now, especially dondozo. A lot of teams are even running water absorb clodsire instead of unaware for palafin (shit set honestly just run dondozo if you want to defensively blank palafin) so sweepers will just try to set up and do nothing.
-Dondozo is both really good and really shit at the same time. Those stats and unaware are awesome, but it is quite passive, and has to rely on rest. I keep going back and forth on rocky helmet vs lefties. There are a lot of situations where I needed lefties to wall something, but many times where rocky helmet chip would help this think not burn 10pp+ on attacks to kill one sweeper.
-These two will probably get prepped for more and more as time goes on so they might become bad. What could happen is after many offensive threats are banned, these two feel impossible to break. We will see as time goes on. I think a lot of the concessions in movesets they force are a little ridiculous and over specific.
-Garganacl is a series sleeper threat. Many teams just can't touch it and salt cure is great for helping this thing be less passive. I stole many wins with the mon.
-Terra is also 100% broken. Offensively especially but even defensively these unaware pokemon become even more frustrating with type changes.
Also the two mons getting banned are fluttermane and houndstone/last respects. (:
Being real I found the curse sleep talk to be amazing with him, but it either doesn't do much or wins by matchup, in that I agree
Because Smogon is a competitive Pokemon forum, not a casual one? This isn’t that hard to understand lol. It‘s always been the case that Smogon attempts to limit RNG-based mechanics as much as possible in the pursuit of competitiveness. Sure, moves having a 30% Poison chance or 80% Accuracy is kind of impossible to avoid, but with mechanics like King’s Rock, Evasion, and Sleep Smogon has always been very quick to remove them if they become too much. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, and if it is to you, then maybe this just isn’t the place for you.
edit: also idk why you’re propping gen 5 up like some sort of paragon of good metas. that jirachi set looks cancerous as hell to play against.
My guess would be Flutter Mane and Roaring Moon as the two bans.
Flutter Mane is broken because of the stats and sheer power - I think everyone is in agreement here.
The other ban seems up for discussion between Hounstone, Palafin, Chien-Pao and a few others but I think the unpredictability of what Terra type RM is going to be (Steel for Fairy, Flying for Acrobatics) seems you have to guess right or lose a mon.
Wouldn't be surprised to see all go at some point.
Flutter Mane is broken because of the stats and sheer power - I think everyone is in agreement here.
The other ban seems up for discussion between Hounstone, Palafin, Chien-Pao and a few others but I think the unpredictability of what Terra type RM is going to be (Steel for Fairy, Flying for Acrobatics) seems you have to guess right or lose a mon.
Wouldn't be surprised to see all go at some point.
Yep, I started running SubSeed Breloom to take advantage of all the dodonzos, quags and garganacls running around.
Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Leech Seed
- Focus Punch
- Substitute
- Seed Bomb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Leech Seed
- Focus Punch
- Substitute
- Seed Bomb
Guys the bans are all but confirmed to be Flutter Mane + Houndstone unless Finch has been absolutely jebaiting OU Chat with "its spooky season"
The reason seems kinda simple enough: If both are eventually gonna be a problem, why ban one when the other will relatively slot in. At this point, Flutter Mane has warped the meta so much to have so many answers that people are unironically stating it isn't a problem while running 3 checks and a Tera normal. Houndstone is hitting the same problems but still being a menace despite that. You're not moving the needle on the metagame enough to see real change if you just have one fast ghost bomb threat banned for another to replace in reasonably well.
The reason seems kinda simple enough: If both are eventually gonna be a problem, why ban one when the other will relatively slot in. At this point, Flutter Mane has warped the meta so much to have so many answers that people are unironically stating it isn't a problem while running 3 checks and a Tera normal. Houndstone is hitting the same problems but still being a menace despite that. You're not moving the needle on the metagame enough to see real change if you just have one fast ghost bomb threat banned for another to replace in reasonably well.
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