Talking about Glaceon is as valid as talking about any other Mon as long as freedom of speech is respected. Also, if you Ban Glaceon from OU, people will be talking even more about it until it comes down again, so it's counterproductive. Glaceon enjoyers, feel free to continue talking about it, I am taking notes about how to best use it.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Yep, they're all potential Pokemon to use against Dnite, but I don't really make use of them. Ting-Lu, since I generally am not a fan of using legendaries unless I'm specifically built around one (and I'm not using Wo-Crap and busted panther.) Bozo... I just haven't really used. Haven't had a team that it fit on very well. Dirge I have yet to actually get up and online. but been meaning to try an Unaware Sub 3 Attacks set.
Haven't use Valiant yet since I don't ladder much, and I need a few spare IG for different builds. Sadly haven't liked using Pult just because it never did me any justice... Just a weird mon with weird move pool.
As for Volc, Dirge is probably my best option as I don't use Unaware Clodsire. I vastly prefer Water Absorb for the extra immunity (and even then I normally prefer Gastro over it.) Haven't made a Ceru yet, nor an Arma. Should probably get on that at some point... I also need to find how I'll fit Dirge onto a team/onto my current team.
In fairness, Morkoal's demonstrated to know what they're talking about with other low-tier mons scrounging for purpose in OU, and I always just wondered why there seemed to be more push for the blacklisting than a harsher action against the one user who repeatedly brought it up in particular (compared to past Blacklists which felt like they came about from multiple users cluttering things at once). Since they stopped chiming in, Glaceon seems reasonable enough if someone has a legitimate point to throw in instead of memes that were never funny and contributed to that old derail.
To not make this just about that response, I have a thought: What are some "offensively oriented" Pokemon that you think warrant experimenting with defensive or utility play? Besides the Chi-Yu Roaring Moon check, this is something I've been thinking about after a FSG binge and things like Bulky Starmie sets in past Generations or Gen 2 Heracross's more "tank" like role with Curse-RestTalk compared to its later full offensive playstyles. It's an avenue for potential versatility that I think could warrant investigation since movepool and typing can more easily compensate a non-optimized stat spread defensively than offensively.
Some examples I've already seen explored a decent bit are Slither Wing and the Tauros-P forms (albeit the latter are particularly anchored by Chien-Pao's dominance), leveraging their typing and things like WoW or a good ability despite obviously being intended as attackers. Something I kind of want to try is utility-based sets for Iron Treads or Jugulis (one post a while back used Hands), like manual Electric Terrain finding chances off their decent speed and typing to enable other dangerous teammates like Valiant (Terrain is harder to come by but I feel like Futures with QD could see even-bigger gains than Pasts with PS to balance it out), or barring that it could at least function as essentially a Boosting move that persists to certain teammates or if returning to the field.
Thank you both so much for this! Glaceon is one of the lower-tier Pokemon I've been testing, and I wouldn't have replied to Lobby Eeveee if I hadn't used Glaceon myself. I haven't used it enough to make one of my large analysis posts (I'll be doing Oricorio next either today or tomorrow), which is why I threw in the disclaimer about the EVs being unoptimized (basically removing some speed EVs and pumping them into its Defense stat is what I'm currently leaning towards, but I need to do more speed tier comparisons + research similar to what I did with Luxray) so that people know it's usable but needs some additional work in the EV tech department.
As far as gimmicks go, Glaceon has been one of the more fun ones I've been using. Not gonna pretend its good since the hazard weakness + support it requires is a bit much, but it does have some good qualities unique to it, namely Freeze-Dry since that move is pretty busted. Hits most of the tier super-effectively and has the same gamebreaking freeze chance that we complained about w/ Kyurem. Common mons like Garchomp, Pelipper, Toxapex, etc. all get crushed by Freeze-Dry. What's awesome about Glace is that it also has Shadow Ball to dunk on Gholdengo and Skeledirge, which are the most common switch-ins to Freeze Dry.
In hail, its quite bulky and gets a ton of recovery from Ice Body + Leftovers. I've been running this set and its kinda neat since it gets a lot of passive healing via hail + Ice Body and Protect. Brings back shades of BW RU, where Glaceon arguably got Hail banned due to this combo lol. I agree that Tera Ghost is also the way to go w/ this mon since STAB Shadow Balls are actually kinda scary neutral coverage vs a lot of threats, though losing the defense boost from hail sucks.
Glaceon (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Ice Body
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 236 HP / 252 SpA / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Protect
Biggest problem with this mon are that it gets revenge killed too easily, is EXTREMELY weak to hazards, and can't do squat vs Kingambit and Chien-Pao.
In hail, its quite bulky and gets a ton of recovery from Ice Body + Leftovers. I've been running this set and its kinda neat since it gets a lot of passive healing via hail + Ice Body and Protect. Brings back shades of BW RU, where Glaceon arguably got Hail banned due to this combo lol. I agree that Tera Ghost is also the way to go w/ this mon since STAB Shadow Balls are actually kinda scary neutral coverage vs a lot of threats, though losing the defense boost from hail sucks.
Glaceon (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Ice Body
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 236 HP / 252 SpA / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Protect
Biggest problem with this mon are that it gets revenge killed too easily, is EXTREMELY weak to hazards, and can't do squat vs Kingambit and Chien-Pao.
fair enough, i trust morkal's judgement since cryogonal's been working really well for me on ladder and i'm eagerly waiting for tier shift to come out so i can use klawf. i just don't want either of those two spammers from earlier to come back and be all like "aha, you see, i was right the whole time" when one of them seriously proposed a ban on mud-slap dunsparce
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No you don’t understand, mudslap dunsparce hard counters Gholdengo, it’s the future of this meta!!!!1!!1
Which set do think Greninja will be running? Scarf +U-turn and ice beam seems it is going to be the base for the most used sets, but Gren has interesting options like grass knot to 2hko Garg before and after tera water, ohko Great Tusk.
Realistically, I think Specs is going to be the most common set by far, 4 of Hpump/U-Turn/Ice Beam/Dark Pulse/Water Shuriken hits a good portion of the metagame, and it really seems like an offensive pivot set with spikes is entirely outclassed by Meowscarada. I could see Scarf being quite niche, mainly due to not being that strong offensively, but definitely an option nonetheless.
Specifically Protean, from the looks of it, it would seem that we're getting standard Greninja.
Battle Bond Protean (at least up until gen 8) has been an event pokemon that is unable to breed, it would be pretty peculiar for them to bring out an event pokemon that is unable to breed, but technically not impossible.
actually, that mud slap accuracy drop could make a huge difference when the game comes down to the icicle crash miss from chien-pao. or a draco meteor miss from dragapult. so OBVIOUSLY this means that it is a very unhealthy presence on the meta and should be suspected or even quickbanned immediately. i have had enough of dunsparce terrorizing the metagame and everyone overlooking it...for too long have people slept on this monster...maybe one day i'll get to witness its demise...
imagine if ash-greninja was still in the game. choice specs/LO ash-gren could've obliterated like half of the metagame with hydro pump/dark pulse and anything that doesn't either gets bodied by ice beam or greninja can just predict them coming in and u-turn out to gain free momentum. water shuriken can also pick off faster threats like chien-pao. and don't get me started on the tera options. this guy would've been unstoppable in the meta (and definitely banned) and a part of me wishes the battle bond nerfs weren't given out so i could see it in action
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With Chien-Pao I'm really at a place where I think "this thing is so cracked" but also feel we need it the same way we needed lando last gen. Its sucker and speed alone keeps so much garbage at bay and HDB sets are somewhat honest.
I feel so evil tera dark +2suckering my way thru teams. Please stay with us Murder Ferret 2.0
I feel so evil tera dark +2suckering my way thru teams. Please stay with us Murder Ferret 2.0
i still think a suspect ladder for lando would have had some merit, just so we could empirically prove whether or not the meta would be worse off without it and shut up some of the "lan bandorus" crowd. gen 2 ou at least experimented with a snorlax-free meta
also, hard disagree about chien-pao, we need it the same way we needed dracovish last gen. which is to say, it stayed for way longer than it needed to
I agree that Chien-Pao is a problem, but I don't think it's synonymous with Dracovish. Fishious Rend was quite literally a one-hit kill button on anything that didn't have Water Absorb or a 4x resistance (even with a 4x resistance, it sometimes wouldn't work). In addition, Fishious Rend could be boosted with Rain even further, so you had STAB + Strong Jaw + Rain + Item Benefits (like Choice Band). Dracovish was also bulky compared to Chien-Pao; Dracovish's Water/Dragon typing leaves it with only Dragon/Fairy weaknesses and 90/100/80 Bulk.
Chien-Pao is naturally speedy; its power primarily comes from its ability Sword of Ruin combined with 120 base Attack, has 80/80/65 bulk with a vastly inferior defensive typing, and its STABS aren't boosted by weather (it needs to terastallize in order to get a STAB power boost, which also has an opportunity cost compared to just switching in Pelipper to set Rain). Again, not saying Chien-Pao isn't a problem because it definitely deserves a suspect, but to compare it to Dracovish both oversells and undersells Chien-Pao simultaneously if that makes sense?
yeah, the comparison was mostly about how long dracovish overstayed its welcome and how many qb votes it dodged
Chien-Pao is most threatening with a band set and with that set its breaking ability similar to something like CB Tar. I don't see the problem there until tera comes into the equasion. You can't overly rely on CB pao for revenge killing, as it puts you at the mercy of your opponents predictions. HDB 4-attack sets are relatively easy to check but manages to revernge kill huge amount of threats with little to no chip. I feel it's worth having around until the SD or Band sets proove to be unwallable or overcentralizing. I'm not seeing it so far, it's just really good imo.
Pardon the brashness, but I want to see what you think of using Loaded Dice Heracross. Everyone I've come across has dumped on it without even giving it a fair shot, and I've had a number of successes with it in OU.
@ Loaded DiceJolly Nature | Moxie
Tera Rock
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 6 Def
Pin Missile
Rock Blast
Earthquake
Trailblaze
The idea is sort of a cross mesh of Moxie and Skill Link. Sort of a modern MegaCross. I didn't want to run a "standard" Heracross with Megamiss, CC, and Rock Slide, so I chose to try tinkering around with Loaded Dice instead. You can slot CC over EQ, but don't bother with Arm Thrust; AT is legitimately butts and does next to nothing. (Why the hell is it the weakest multi-hit move? 15 BP is nothing... Brick Break outperforms it lmfao.)
I've had so much fun using it and turning the tides on checks/supposed counters like Volcarona and Iron Moth, watching them die to Rock Blasts.
Bullet Seed is also a move option, but I use Trailblaze over it for the speed patching.
That Defense EV should be 4, not 6. In all honesty, I wouldn't run Loaded Dice with Heracross because Bug / Rock and the lower accuracy can really hurt Heracross's chances of pulling off successful Volc baiting. I'd recommend Assault Vest with Trailblaze and alternate coverage instead -Pardon the brashness, but I want to see what you think of using Loaded Dice Heracross. Everyone I've come across has dumped on it without even giving it a fair shot, and I've had a number of successes with it in OU.
Jolly Nature | Moxie
Tera Rock
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 6 Def
Pin Missile
Rock Blast
Earthquake
Trailblaze
The idea is sort of a cross mesh of Moxie and Skill Link. Sort of a modern MegaCross. I didn't want to run a "standard" Heracross with Megamiss, CC, and Rock Slide, so I chose to try tinkering around with Loaded Dice instead. You can slot CC over EQ, but don't bother with Arm Thrust; AT is legitimately butts and does next to nothing. (Why the hell is it the weakest multi-hit move? 15 BP is nothing... Brick Break outperforms it lmfao.)
I've had so much fun using it and turning the tides on checks/supposed counters like Volcarona and Iron Moth, watching them die to Rock Blasts.
Bullet Seed is also a move option, but I use Trailblaze over it for the speed patching.
Heracross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Throat Chop
- Rock Slide
- Trailblaze
Earthquake, Throat Chop, Rock Slide with Trailblaze and Assault Vest + Moxie boost allows you to take a stray hit more effectively on the Special side, and because the set didn't rely on support coverage, to begin with, AV is a more safe bet if you're trying to differentiate Heracross. Rock Slide still works better than Rock Blast after Trailblaze because it doesn't require an item slot for consistent power, allowing you to allocate an item that suits Hera way better (Hera's Special Defense is naturally better than its Defense, so enhancing that provides Heracross additional switch-in opportunities. The reason I would use Loaded Dice on a niche pick like Klawf is because of additional factors that allowed me room to use that item (Klawf has Regenerator, for example).
I tried a variation of this set and lemme just say, if you need a complete side-man or death fodder to grant something else a free switch-in, few get the job done better than Loaded Dice Heracross.Pardon the brashness, but I want to see what you think of using Loaded Dice Heracross. Everyone I've come across has dumped on it without even giving it a fair shot, and I've had a number of successes with it in OU.
Jolly Nature | Moxie
Tera Rock
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 6 Def
Pin Missile
Rock Blast
Earthquake
Trailblaze
The idea is sort of a cross mesh of Moxie and Skill Link. Sort of a modern MegaCross. I didn't want to run a "standard" Heracross with Megamiss, CC, and Rock Slide, so I chose to try tinkering around with Loaded Dice instead. You can slot CC over EQ, but don't bother with Arm Thrust; AT is legitimately butts and does next to nothing. (Why the hell is it the weakest multi-hit move? 15 BP is nothing... Brick Break outperforms it lmfao.)
I've had so much fun using it and turning the tides on checks/supposed counters like Volcarona and Iron Moth, watching them die to Rock Blasts.
I too was tempted by using Mega-Heracross at home which kept some of Heracross's perks like Guts and its better speed tier. However, this set has far too many flaws. Without a Guts boost, Heracross's initial power is way too shaky to reliably land KOes. It's speed isn't too good either and it has severe 4MSS since it wants all of Bullet Seed, SD, Rock Blast, CC, EQ, etc. It also wants multiple Tera Types since Grass lets it beat Dozo while Rock helps it w/ Dirge. While these types help Heracross out in the moment, the are easy to exploit since both have many common weaknesses. Without investment, it's Bulk isn't good enough to really switch into anything. It can't even switch into Pokemon like Iron Treads or Great Tusk since they just use Knock Off and make half its moves useless. Loaded Dice sucks for another reason, which is that a lot of the time, it will hit only 4 times, causing you to miss out on crucial KOes.
I think your set might be better than my set since you lean more in its sweeping capabilities, but ultimately, I think using Heracross with Loaded Dice is just too big of a gamble.
I'll address these in points to keep things simpler.That Defense EV should be 4, not 6. In all honesty, I wouldn't run Loaded Dice with Heracross because Bug / Rock and the lower accuracy can really hurt Heracross's chances of pulling off successful Volc baiting. I'd recommend Assault Vest with Trailblaze and alternate coverage instead -
Heracross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Throat Chop
- Rock Slide
- Trailblaze
Earthquake, Throat Chop, Rock Slide with Trailblaze and Assault Vest + Moxie boost allows you to take a stray hit more effectively on the Special side, and because the set didn't rely on support coverage, to begin with, AV is a more safe bet if you're trying to differentiate Heracross. Rock Slide still works better than Rock Blast after Trailblaze because it doesn't require an item slot for consistent power, allowing you to allocate an item that suits Hera way better (Hera's Special Defense is naturally better than its Defense, so enhancing that provides Heracross additional switch-in opportunities. The reason I would use Loaded Dice on a niche pick like Klawf is because of additional factors that allowed me room to use that item (Klawf has Regenerator, for example)
1. I'm used to filling in all 510 points, so I put 6 instead of 4. Just a personal quirk.
2. In most cases, the "lower accuracy" is actually a better option than the alternative.
-Pin Missile vs Megahorn: 95% vs 85%
-Rock Blast vs Rock Slide vs Stone Miss: 90% vs 90% vs 80%
In terms of damage output, options are actually either on par or better.
-Rock Blast vs Rock Slide vs Stone Miss: 100 (4 hits) vs 75 vs 100
-Pin Missile vs Megahorn: 100 (4 hits) vs 120 (not factoring in STAB. At 5 hits, it's 125 vs 100.)
Pin Missile vs Megahorn and Throat Chop also doesn't make contact, so if Volc isn't Tera'd, Rock Blast kills it immediately with 0 chances of Flame Body activating. If they're somehow wise to the shenanigans, then Pin Missile kills it with 0 chances of Flame Body.
Another bonus for it is that mons with Focus Sash that are outsped after +1 Speed also die without them having a chance to fight back because of multi-hit moves. The major downside is that when Annihilape was around, it was a hard counter. Primeape is also a counter, as Rage Fist gets free stacks.
As for Loaded Dice vs another item, may I offer you Iron Thorns, Tyranitar, and Baxcalibur? All of them pretty much do the same thing Hera likes to, except they have better offensive setup through Swords Dance or Dragon Dance. They could use other items like Air Balloon, Scarf, Band, or Life Orb... But people who use sets like mine don't; they use dice instead. Especially Bax. While having an AV would be nicer for Hera, I just don't see it giving me as much opportunity to really push damage out.
I actually find myself having very few, if any, of these issues I see you having. Guts vs Moxie is always an endless debate for Hera, as Moxie allows you to snowball, but Guts gives you immediate power at the cost of your HP each turn. I wanted more snowballing to apply pressure.
Hera DOES have 4MSS to a bad degree, I cannot deny that. I'd LIKE to have Bullet Seed on the set, but then I'd have Trailblaze AND Bullet Seed which is a bad overlap. Or I sacrifice the +1 speed setup to have Bullet Seed and EQ.
I'm full-in on Tera Rock, honestly. Bozo can be dealt with by other Pokemon, and Rock allows you to turn the tables on most Flying, Fire, and Bug types that want to come in to try and either nuke you, or wall you. Rock also takes away your 4x weakness to Flying without keeping you weak to it.
i prefer guts flame orb with trailblaze myself, but then again i'm running that in lower tiers where volcarona doesn't exist. the only mons i've run in ou that aren't on the vr (outside of the first few days of "oh hey maybe this thing is good now wait never mind") are cryogonal, flapple, mabosstiff and altaria. i'm also thinking of trying out palossandThat Defense EV should be 4, not 6. In all honesty, I wouldn't run Loaded Dice with Heracross because Bug / Rock and the lower accuracy can really hurt Heracross's chances of pulling off successful Volc baiting. I'd recommend Assault Vest with Trailblaze and alternate coverage instead -
Heracross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Throat Chop
- Rock Slide
- Trailblaze
Earthquake, Throat Chop, Rock Slide with Trailblaze and Assault Vest + Moxie boost allows you to take a stray hit more effectively on the Special side, and because the set didn't rely on support coverage, to begin with, AV is a more safe bet if you're trying to differentiate Heracross. Rock Slide still works better than Rock Blast after Trailblaze because it doesn't require an item slot for consistent power, allowing you to allocate an item that suits Hera way better (Hera's Special Defense is naturally better than its Defense, so enhancing that provides Heracross additional switch-in opportunities. The reason I would use Loaded Dice on a niche pick like Klawf is because of additional factors that allowed me room to use that item (Klawf has Regenerator, for example).
Forgive the intrusion here but I cannot recommend dragalge enough for UR adventure Pokémon, specs is a flawed but incredibly powerful nuke with Tera Dragon Draco Meteor 2hkoing most steels and Sludge Bomb cleanly ohkos most fairies. (If you run into Tinkaton you cry.)
I've actually been meaning to make a few Dragalge to play around with. It's sorta funny how with Dragalge, Tinky makes you stinky.
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