Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Magcargo]

I don't think Walking Wake has any real counterplay in a meta where we have no Dragon Resist and it has 120 BP Water Coverage to hit all the ones that do resist, esp w/ Proto boosting its damage output. I was thinking Utility Umbrella Tera-Fairy Slowking could be a counter, but that is a shitty meme that I am 100% sure it won't work. If Walking Wake runs Hydro, it still retains full power vs Tera Fairy Slowking, so it will 2HKO anyways lol.

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 271-321 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 114-135 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Slowking: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Boots Slowking is still an okay check I think and can force it into a position where it will either need to Tera or reset sun, but still not ideal. Another solution is running Snowscape on random Pokemon to lower its damage / speed or using Blissey on every team, but that seems kinda like a not good dynamic.

 

[Venuesaur]

I don't think Walking Wake has any real counterplay in a meta where we have no Dragon Resist and it has 120 BP Water Coverage to hit all the ones that do resist, esp w/ Proto boosting its damage output. I was thinking Utility Umbrella Tera-Fairy Slowking could be a counter, but that is a shitty meme that I am 100% sure it won't work. If Walking Wake runs Hydro, it still retains full power vs Tera Fairy Slowking, so it will 2HKO anyways lol.

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 271-321 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 114-135 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Slowking: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Boots Slowking is still an okay check I think and can force it into a position where it will either need to Tera or reset sun, but still not ideal. Another solution is running Snowscape on random Pokemon to lower its damage / speed or using Blissey on every team, but that seems kinda like a not good dynamic.

I agree, at first I thought this was whatever bc proto is kinda mid but bc it's so perfectly tailored to abuse sun with its signature and flamethrower cvg I think this is too much. If you run it in sun with specs it's draco meteor i think is too strong for the tier. This is only a prediction and we'll see but i think sun makes this too much for the tier.

 

[MrE]

I legitimately am struggling to build Sun right now. How the hell do you guys do it, especially with the addition of Wake?

I scrapped my original one and am struggling to find a good squad that balances out defensively. So far I have Tork, Wake, Offensive Tusk, X, Screaming Banshee, and Corviknight. I legit cannot figure out what to slot in for the last one... Everything I know is screaming to put in a Grass, but the only good physical grasses are Meow, Breloom, Tsareena, and Unga Bunga. Meow, Loom, an Bunga all give me a third Fairy weakness, and Tsareena is always a Spin support, rather than an offensive pressure mon.
My only other choice would be like... SD 3 Attacks Leafeon, and that's subpar at best. I have no idea what I'm doing here, lmao.

I'm not good at team building, but I'm going to use scarf leaves with solar blade, leaf blade (incase no sun), and then when I've figured out what I'm most struggling against from a coverage stand point 2 of CC, psyblade and night slash as my one of my slots alongside tork, defensive tusk WW and a regenerator mon (can't decide which one I like most for my team yet, leaning to cloak moongus to shut down garg) then either corv or dnite as ground immunity. There's a good chance that once I start playing with it I'll drop something for the match up moth however.

 

[1LDK]

I scrapped my original one and am struggling to find a good squad that balances out defensively. So far I have Tork, Wake, Offensive Tusk, X, Screaming Banshee, and Corviknight.

Sun is more like offensive/BO Offense, don't use corviknight, tusk, torkoal and hatterene are kinda all the hazard removal, it kinda goes like this

Guide to make sun, wrote by somebody who doesn't know how to play in the first place

Step 1: +
Both are mandatory, different from rain where only rain is mandatory, but here tusk gets boosted by sun, can spin, can wall, can shit on your parade, torkoal can do the same (the showdown set is trash, don't use body press)
Step 2: Defensive support, because you need more than just attackers
Supports via Court Change, U-turn, Sucker Punch, good damage with Pyro Ball, fast
Magic Bounce, anti stall mon, has Mystical Fire, has 1000 ways to generate momentum for your team, nuzzle, healing wish, eject button, etc
While technically being designed as a sun abuser, it has a better support movepool and while insanely passive and generally outclassed by Hatterene, my god just fucking die already
Step 3:
Sun abusers, I'm not gonna make a differentiation this time because im lazy, just pick what you think you're going to need
haha tera bug choice band u-turn, also can sweep
Gen 5 vibes here, still as broken as always, but this time with extra cheese to clog your arteries via tera
Insanely frail, but 1 Growth in sun and the game is over
Fat meme, but has SD, only use it if your feeling brave
cute bug, first impression, Will-o-Wisp, not fire directly so that helps with resistance table
Specs and Scarf are good, it has spikes and volt switch, low movepool but who cares
you would think a QUARK DRIVE mon is useless in sun, but man, Fiery Dance is sun does, SO. MUCH. DAMAGE, it also has a good movepool, some key resistances and good speed
Mimikyu Stardust made a big post about it, but in a short version, it's but in Sun
Is too dependent on Tera but can work if given lots of support, has healing on attack, immune to fire, and is a spin blocker
if you're running Fire Punch/Fire Spin Shenanigans, makes the team more bulky overall, and can always sweep at the blink of an eye
the new mon in town who is not yet in the simulator, and doesnt even have a sprite yet, is a water type who has a move that gets boosted in sun, is also a special attacker with no special boosting move, short movepool but more investigation is needed to dictated the future of this mon

Sun has way more abusers than rain, and doesn't need as much support, combine attackers as you want to make a fun combination, and don't let yourself get knocked out via the heat

Hello? Iron Valiant? Mixed is one of its best sets and one of the better cleaners in this tier.

I'm not sold on Booster Energy mons because its a 1 time chance, and in this game everything can go wrong, and if not in the correct position, is very easy to just dance around stuff like Acro Moon, Clean Valiant, Offensive Tusk, I mean, if you're a reality warper/god at the game where everything goes your way then sure, go for it, but in my personal experience, last time I have been swept by a Booster energy mon was a Roaring Moon where I missed the Will-O-Wisp with the rotom AND the following Play Rough with the Scarf Meowscarada, but that's just luck. Back to the topic, that's my beef with it

 

[Ehmcee]

I legitimately am struggling to build Sun right now. How the hell do you guys do it, especially with the addition of Wake?

I scrapped my original one and am struggling to find a good squad that balances out defensively. So far I have Tork, Wake, Offensive Tusk, X, Screaming Banshee, and Corviknight. I legit cannot figure out what to slot in for the last one... Everything I know is screaming to put in a Grass, but the only good physical grasses are Meow, Breloom, Tsareena, and Unga Bunga. Meow, Loom, an Bunga all give me a third Fairy weakness, and Tsareena is always a Spin support, rather than an offensive pressure mon.
My only other choice would be like... SD 3 Attacks Leafeon, and that's subpar at best. I have no idea what I'm doing here, lmao.

Continuing on ausma's post, here are a few mons that perform quite well on sun.


Brute Bonnet @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Tera Blast
- Sucker Punch
- Spore

This is a surprisingly strong breaker after the attack boost, has access to priority sucker punches and has tera blast for annoying steels that think they can sit on you. Spore is also an incredibly good move that generates free turns for sun, which usually really appreciates it.


Ceruledge @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bitter Blade
- Solar Blade
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance

If you're able to get rocks off the field and bring this in on a physical mon, you can get some serious damage going with bitter blade + solar blade. At + 2 speed it'll outspeed basically everything, with shadow sneak as added priority. It can aditionally burn a grass tera for a better matchup against dodonzo and gargnacl.


Roaring Moon @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dragon / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Outrage

CB + a speed boost means this gets in with essentially a free Dragon Dance. Will bust through everything that isn't Corviknight, or Great Tusk and even then can Tera to further boost it's breaking power.


If you want more inspiritation, these are two quite popular sun teams:

Vert Sun, used during SPL
https://pokepast.es/23f172db5413da28

ausma 's aforementionned double moth sun team
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-bazaar.3710954/page-11#post-9517847

 

[SciWiz373]

Continuing on ausma's post, here are a few mons that perform quite well on sun.


Brute Bonnet @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Tera Blast
- Sucker Punch
- Spore

This is a surprisingly strong breaker after the attack boost, has access to priority sucker punches and has tera blast for annoying steels that think they can sit on you. Spore is also an incredibly good move that generates free turns for sun, which usually really appreciates it.


Ceruledge @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bitter Blade
- Solar Blade
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance

If you're able to get rocks off the field and bring this in on a physical mon, you can get some serious damage going with bitter blade + solar blade. At + 2 speed it'll outspeed basically everything, with shadow sneak as added priority. It can aditionally burn a grass tera for a better matchup against dodonzo and gargnacl.


Roaring Moon @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dragon / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Outrage

CB + a speed boost means this gets in with essentially a free Dragon Dance. Will bust through everything that isn't Corviknight, or Great Tusk and even then can Tera to further boost it's breaking power.


If you want more inspiritation, these are two quite popular sun teams:

Vert Sun, used during SPL
https://pokepast.es/23f172db5413da28

ausma 's aforementionned double moth sun team
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-bazaar.3710954/page-11#post-9517847

FWIW your Roaring Moon is gonna pop Atk Proto, needs to be 220 Atk to get Speed Proto iirc.

 

[SpritePony]

This actually is very informative, thank you. I chose Scream at first because of so many people parroting that due to Proto and its natural bulk, it was "the best sun abuser" as a tank. I wouldn't stack Scream and Hat anyway.
There's a good few options, the only reason I began slotting Corvi was because of the holes of weaknesses in the team. Tork/Tusk/Wake/Hat has Ground/Flying/Ghost/1 additional Fairy as open weaknesses, and Corvi blocks both Flying, Ground, and Fairy -- even though most Flying is only really coming from opposing Corvis.
I can pick up Gholdengo, both as a Garg check and as a patch for Flying and Fairy (and Ground as a Tera Flying user.) This leaves 2/0 Ground and 2/1 Water. Looks like I would need to bite the bullet on Fairy weaknesses and take Bonnet. But I won't have Rocks. Ouch.

Edit: I'll have to try with defensive Tusk for this. Pair it up with Hat and see how it works out.

 

[ausma]

This actually is very informative, thank you. I chose Scream at first because of so many people parroting that due to Proto and its natural bulk, it was "the best sun abuser" as a tank. I wouldn't stack Scream and Hat anyway.
There's a good few options, the only reason I began slotting Corvi was because of the holes of weaknesses in the team. Tork/Tusk/Wake/Hat has Ground/Flying/Ghost/1 additional Fairy as open weaknesses, and Corvi blocks both Flying, Ground, and Fairy -- even though most Flying is only really coming from opposing Corvis.
I can pick up Gholdengo, both as a Garg check and as a patch for Flying and Fairy (and Ground as a Tera Flying user.) This leaves 2/0 Ground and 2/1 Water. Looks like I would need to bite the bullet on Fairy weaknesses and take Bonnet. But I won't have Rocks. Ouch.

1: koal should always pack rocks so that shouldn't be a problem
2: sun is inherently offensive; play to that. you dont want to be positioning often w/ reactive play because that both wastes sun turns and limits your proactive options. you would rather have a tera or two/an item maybe for emergencies and certain weaker mus over dedicating an entire team slot that would be used more efficiently by smth else.

 

[lionace]

I know this might be too soon but I have already decided that Walking Wake will be the centerpiece and ace of my team. Any teammates that will be great support for him?

 

[SpritePony]

1: koal should always pack rocks so that shouldn't be a problem
2: sun is inherently offensive; play to that. you dont want to be positioning often w/ reactive play because that both wastes sun turns and limits your proactive options. you would rather have a tera or two/an item maybe for to emergencies and certain weaker mus over dedicating an entire team slot that would be used more efficiently by smth else.

Alright, I'll keep that in mind. Sun plays a lot differently than what I'm used to playing, so it'll be a HUGE learning curve.

Also for those curious, this is the team I settled on: https://pokepast.es/c1c1f79725133c00
I'll be testing it in-game soon and I'll report back my findings.

 

[1LDK]

I know this might be too soon but I have already decided that Walking Wake will be the centerpiece and ace of my team. Any teammates that will be great support for him?

This entire page is filled with people talking about partners for it, Sun mons

 

[DiscoDucky]

I don't think Walking Wake has any real counterplay in a meta where we have no Dragon Resist and it has 120 BP Water Coverage to hit all the ones that do resist, esp w/ Proto boosting its damage output.

I joke since I'm pretty sure Sun-boosted Hydro Steam cooks Azu

 

[MrE]

Alright, I'll keep that in mind. Sun plays a lot differently than what I'm used to playing, so it'll be a HUGE learning curve.

Also for those curious, this is the team I settled on: https://pokepast.es/c1c1f79725133c00
I'll be testing it in-game soon and I'll report back my findings.

What does 104 on bonnet outspeed?

 

[1LDK]

What does 104 on bonnet outspeed?

Corviknight, in case you wanna blast it with Fire tera blast because it walls you otherwise

 

[Ehmcee]

You know what, this mon'll be fine

 

[Finchinator]

Walking Wake, Iron Leaves, and Zoroark-H are now live on Pokemon Showdown!

 

[ausma]

Walking Wake, Iron Leaves, and Zoroark-H are now live on Pokemon Showdown!

With this, I'll also ask you guys take any teams to the ladder and post them to the RMT forum for feedback instead of here. Thanks and have fun with the new toys!

 

[Soiramio3000]

walking wake looks a like a slightly better sandy shocks stat-wise.

 

[awyp]

*Takes his aim off of Garganacl for suspect testing and puts it towards Walking Wake*

 

[Chou Toshio]

By the way, the new Suicune can learn agility and dragon dance, but not calm mind nor nasty plot

Yeah, it’s weird… but I think you have to think of Weather as its Calm Mind.

Even manual Sunny Day, you’re boosting 2 of your 3 main attacking types— almost as good as a +1, and of course you get Proto.

Even Rain though… Boosting Water STAB and under Rain No-Miss Hurricane is only a tad weaker than a +1 80 BP/100 acc flying coverage move. So again it’s like boosting 2 attacking types.

Not a CM, not stackable, but 2 variations both with potential for setup by other mons— and it’s a Sun Sweeper that is dangerous under Rain, or a Rain Sweeper that’s still potentially a menace in Sun. Very interesting.

I think this layer of interest diminishes a bit if it gets CM since there’d be no incentive to dry run Sunny Day/Rain Dance.

 

[taziathegreat]

walking wake looks a like a slightly better sandy shocks stat-wise.

it’s basically a latios that trades a little power for a better typing an offensive ability and a better signature move.

 

[SpritePony]

Well, FWIW, I just finished my exercising testing with the Sun team I built. Got 7 games in within an hour and a halfish. 6 of those games were Little Timmy Ubers players.

I went undefeated. 7-0-0, saw most of the Ubers tier being played with the only ones I didn't run into being Bundle, Stone, Cyc, Espa, and funni fish. I even had a Sun mirror match that was... Interesting to play. I won because my Hat got to +2 and lived damage roll on 1.

Some notes from my time:
1. Wake is an absolute MONSTER. Like, this thing is NOT okay lmfao. You absolutely blow things up with Sun boosted Specs Hydro Steams, and forget about the Draco damage. I only Terastalized it once, and that was to ensure it didn't die to Dragapult randomly. (Seriously, you outpace non-Scarf Pult by a mile with Proto Speed Timid.)
2. Torkoal is kind of a sitting duck most of the time. Even with max SpAtk it just didn't quite do a whole lot outside of burning a duck and setting the Sun. I might try throwing Rocks onto it too so I have 2 rockers.
3. Unga Bunga Boongus over here hits like a TRUCK. Sucker Punch was a very useful utility against a couple of Pokemon, and Bullet Seed just sort of nuked a few things. I also learned that it outpaces defensive Sylveon, which was nice.
4. I only "had" to Tera like... 3 times, and 2 of those were on Dengo itself. I guess the coverage on Wake isn't necessary at all with the absolute Fat Man Mini Nuke of a Pokemon we have here. Seriously, it one-shot a Fluttermane.
5. Grass Wake didn't really show up often as a necessity. Maybe Steel would've been the better pick, to snipe the most common Fairies.
6. Tusk is a beast of a tank under Proto, and I don't know if I want to keep my Hat as a Phys Def CM set or a full SpDef set.
7. I could probably see Wake getting axed. This thing is just too strong.

 

[Skyuchi]

Yeah, it’s weird… but I think you have to think of Weather as its Calm Mind.

Even manual Sunny Day, you’re boosting 2 of your 3 main attacking types— almost as good as a +1, and of course you get Proto.

Even Rain though… Boosting Water STAB and under Rain No-Miss Hurricane is only a tad weaker than a +1 80 BP/100 acc flying coverage move. So again it’s like boosting 2 attacking types.

Not a CM, not stackable, but 2 variations both with potential for setup by other mons— and it’s a Sun Sweeper that is dangerous under Rain, or a Rain Sweeper that’s still potentially a menace in Sun. Very interesting.

I think this layer of interest diminishes a bit if it gets CM since there’d be no incentive to dry run Sunny Day/Rain Dance.

I would say there still is. On a full Sun team, it doesn't hurt to have a second setter given how Torkoal isn't exactly the most safe thing to switch in all the time, and technically speaking Sunny Day becomes either just shy of a Nasty Plot for its Water/Fire moves, or what is essentially a special version of Dragon Dance.
The 30% Proto boost on Sp Attack stacks multiplicitively with the 50% move power increase to be a 95% damage increase on two of its three obligatory moves. You can take that or 50% more on those two while getting 50% more speed.
Functionally, this Pokemon has access to nasty plot.
I think Specs with Torkoal support is probably the better way to go, but depending on how things unfold if you need something else to back it up on sun, you could do worse.

 

[Rootb]

*Takes his aim off of Garganacl for suspect testing and puts it towards Walking Wake*

The darkest timeline, where a 25% salt cure helps reliably get the dumb raptordog off my screen.

 

[SpritePony]

The darkest timeline, where a 25% salt cure helps reliably get the dumb raptordog off my screen.

Too bad that you'd have to hit it with it on a switch or get absolutely nuked on it hitting you.