You guys pretty goofy talking about so-called impossible threats for balance. Like you think it’s some divine right to run slowing+mola and gliscor Protect Gameplay into everything? Sounds same as stall peeps asking to ban ursaluna. Just play a more aggressive team and adapt.
v silly if oger kyrem or darkrai banned before gambit, doggie, or giraffe.
Btw what do you all think of? I think it’s high key top 5 Pokémon in OU. Fat Tera fairy. Dd with hurricane. Encore. This is better sweeper than roaring moon now if you ask me
You guys pretty goofy talking about so-called impossible threats for balance. Like you think it’s some divine right to run slowing+mola and gliscor Protect Gameplay into everything? Sounds same as stall peeps asking to ban ursaluna. Just play a more aggressive team and adapt.
The rest (minus Wogre) I agree with, including Gliscor who invalidates balance and is still an asshole towards offensive structures by being ridiculously fat and hard to rkill with Tera.
(not-so) Quick disclaimer because I think it adds to the nuance of this discussion:
I'm Gliscor hater #1. I play balance mostly because it's more comfortable for me and I'm the first to say that I don't think I have ever seen a single Pokémon cause so much havoc by itself. How many matches where the best play is to just counter enemy Gliscor with your own Gliscor and just stare at eachother. Like you said, Kyurem is oppressive and uncheckable and it seems to be pushing it down far enough for now.
(...)
And like Vert above said, G-King is everywhere to check it. Now, the only consistent and powerful check being the meta isn't actually all that healthy because now even MORE people will be running it (or get crippled in the matchup). It is compounding the meta centralization issue by turning it into kind of a straight up necessity in fatter balance structures, which just cuts into meta diversity.
5. (...) glowking is all over the place, it's true, but the fact that it needs to be all over the place isn't healthy or good, and kyurem is definitely one of the factors in that. (...)
Defaulting to offense or HO and accepting that balance is less good indicates an unhealthy metagame.Just play a more aggressive team and adapt.
All three off the guys you want gone have reliable counterplay and bring important defensive merit to the tier as well. The two you're fine with have significantly less counterplay and are significantly more variable in their ability to pick and choose checks.v silly if oger kyrem or darkrai banned before gambit, doggie, or giraffe.
anyway i have a cool gravity sticky web team i think ill rmt in a lil bit. But pls ban Tera normal dragonite. So “oppressive” to my HO lol. Oh wait I’m supposed to call that “cheese” bc it’s not balance, despite being way more consistent into the meta…
Btw what do you all think of? I think it’s high key top 5 Pokémon in OU.
I mean we knew Kyu was gonna get better with volc gone, I voted ban personally and don't regret it because I felt as though we were getting rid of the worse of 2 evils but what CTC is saying is truekyurem isn't "symptomatic of the void left by volc". volc was a thing during the previous kyurem suspect (even though the most dominant playstyle at the time clowned on it) and kyurem was still dumb enough to only barely avoid a ban for stupid reasons. the mon's just broken
And would you like to list said counterplay while you are throwing out passive aggresive remarks or are we "too braindead" to understand that? And the reason why people are saying skilless is because you mentioned a mon which isn't even mentioned by anybody as 'broken'. Nobody was even thinking of d-nite as broken, the last time it was even conceived to be 'broken' was in DLC1, which even then it was more fringe.Idk you guys use words like braindead/brainless or skill-less w/e and then are advocating for a style that just clicks chilly reception or wish turn. Like huh? This is a non-argument to me. There is plenty of counter play to all these pokemon available in ou, it’s just more proactive.
I mean, sure this gen is a lot more offensive, but that doesn't mean it has to be only offense. Every playstyle should have equal footing, and while balance and stall are definetely good, offense is by far the best playstyle. We can see this because mons like waterpon, kyurem and darkrai (though I am less convinced on darkrai being broken) destroy one or multiple playstyles that are not offense. Nobody is trying to 'lobotomize' the tier, they are simply trying to make it better. And from what we have seen in this thread so far, many people have issue with this meta, so we should be banning what people deem banworthy.The gen has Tera and avg attacking stats of like 125. It just happens to be the case that it’s harder to play defensively this generation. It’s easier to setup and hit hard. Doesn’t mean we have to lobotomize the tier. See gen 8 if you want a fat regenerator fight.
I'm sorry, WHAT. Healthy is definetely a worthwhile word, and saying it isn't is honestly, just stupid. Yes, fun and competitiveness are important, but the health of the metagame is just as important. If the metagame isn't healthy, then it is not fun or competitive to play. You are digging your own hole at this point, please just stop.Words like healthy are totally meaningless. The only things that matter are 1. Fun and 2. Competitive, measured by consistency in results of good players compared to not good players
Idk you guys use words like braindead/brainless or skill-less w/e and then are advocating for a style that just clicks chilly reception or wish turn. Like huh? This is a non-argument to me. There is plenty of counter play to all these pokemon available in ou, it’s just more proactive.
The gen has Tera and avg attacking stats of like 125. It just happens to be the case that it’s harder to play defensively this generation. It’s easier to setup and hit hard. Doesn’t mean we have to lobotomize the tier.
See gen 8 if you want a fat regenerator fight
Words like healthy are totally meaningless. The only things that matter are 1. Fun and 2. Competitive, measured by consistency in results of good players compared to not good players
hey mods can i be rude to this guy? i've got so much material to work with hereIdk you guys use words like braindead/brainless or skill-less w/e and then are advocating for a style that just clicks chilly reception or wish turn. Like huh? This is a non-argument to me. There is plenty of counter play to all these pokemon available in ou, it’s just more proactive.
The gen has Tera and avg attacking stats of like 125. It just happens to be the case that it’s harder to play defensively this generation. It’s easier to setup and hit hard. Doesn’t mean we have to lobotomize the tier. See gen 8 if you want a fat regenerator fight. Words like healthy are totally meaningless. The only things that matter are 1. Fun and 2. Competitive, measured by consistency in results of good players compared to not good players
See the issue for me personally sits with the fact that Sini is a great check to Ogerpon--But nearly every other pokemon that is run Around Ogerpon completely obliterates it and other checks (Kyurem, Darkrai) that unless you have a perfect tera sequence you're often fucked once it goes down. I'm someone who religiously uses Sini as my spinblocker of choice over Pult or Ghold, and so I've pretty experienced with the usual matchups it faces.So if you want to run these bulky cores and don't want to try and adapt with specific Wellspring checks like sinisha then you have you have sacrifice a bit
This dude is a troll, I am beyond convinced at this pointThanks dood. You are the Spock to my Kirk
Idk why you’re all so defensive or taking this so personally lol. Talk about stirring up a hornets nest.
Playstyles or archetypes are emergent, not something to be selected for. Don’t mistake the map for the terrain.
and no moyashi I don’t mean to be passive aggressive by qualifying player skill. I mean that absolutely — in a competitive game, skilled players will win more consistently, while less skilled players will win less consistently. In uncompetitive games, there is more variance in outcomes due to chance, bad game design, biases whatever.
I find this no different than how offense varrients HAVE to make sure they have answers for raging neck and gambit, or how the HAVE to account for reliability getting out offense by mons like banded rillaboom, like every set of dragonite, roaringmoons extremely fast booster speed tier etc. So because Wellspring has such clear strengths and weaknesses I'm less inclined to see why it deserse to be banned over say a mon like Darkrai that cam kinda just stat cliff is way into being threatening for a large varriety playstyle not just balence cores. But in all honesty I think there's something beautiful about this gen and how there's so many strong pokemon and strong strategies everywhere that everyplaystyle has a few ops that they have to account for in the builder to succeed. There's no comp that's positive to neutral is every match up and I feel that helps the meta feel less solved and thus more adaptable and fun imo.
I think this was a more elaborate less memee version of what that other fella was trying to get at
just bc you had to google it doesn’t mean I did. Stop projecting pls.
there’s no holy architect at gamefreak that said “and on the first day I created Balance”. The archetypes smogon posters cherish are abstract concepts to describe aggressive or passive play. Theyre not discrete parts of the game. Bc of the types of stuff game freak put in this generation (Tera, less move distribution, higher bst) there’s more offense. Thus, It emerges. There’s no deservedness or “should” behind archetypes existing, they just do. Thank you for linking the tweet, but I don’t agree with finchinator on those grounds.
take issue with the characterization of things as correct, “healthy” or even “respectable” as some guy said, as if there’s a moral quality to what Pokémon people use lol.
Woah now let me clarify, cuz I think there's a misunderstanding! My point is a lot more nuanced.“respectable” as some guy said, as if there’s a moral quality to what Pokémon people use lol.
just bc you had to google it doesn’t mean I did. Stop projecting pls.
there’s no holy architect at gamefreak that said “and on the first day I created Balance”. The archetypes smogon posters cherish are abstract concepts to describe aggressive or passive play. Theyre not discrete parts of the game. Bc of the types of stuff game freak put in this generation (Tera, less move distribution, higher bst) there’s more offense. Thus, It emerges. There’s no deservedness or “should” behind archetypes existing, they just do. Thank you for linking the tweet, but I don’t agree with finchinator on those grounds.
and all desires to want these things or not are valid. I take issue with the characterization of things as correct, “healthy” or even “respectable” as some guy said, as if there’s a moral quality to what Pokémon people use lol.
I do feel there's a point to be made in all this that there is an underlying sentiment of "we prefer if bulky balence cores rose to being one of the dominant archetypes this gen"
Now whether it's because offense varrients are precieved as more chaotic, volatile, harder to plan around, less skillful, or just subjectively less fun and sure other reasons. I'm not assuming anything about anyone cause I'm sure everyone that prefers balence has their own special combination of reasons but that is the popular sentiment in this form under the subtext.
And I want to preface that that's completely fine and dandy. We're all entitled to our opinions and it's not like preferring a gen to center around balence is an unpopular or unreasonable thing to want. I just wish more where upfront with how their bias impact their opinions on certain mons and their overall vision of a funner meta game.
I feel the the discussion around Wellspring and the sides people take on it encapsulate ehst I'm trying to say perfectly. That why I went into the most detail about it on my previous post. If you prefer bulkier balence cores the Ogerpon is a headache for you. That makes sense to me cause Ogerpon is a wall breaker primarily so it would only make sense that her usefulness scales the more walls you give her to break. So if you want to run these bulky cores and don't want to try and adapt with specific Wellspring checks like sinisha then you have you have sacrifice a bit and adapt more speed and no I'm not talking just match em with HO. The thing is as a playstyle as a whole the Ogerpon sisters are your biggest Ops, both of them,(I'm still in the process of being convinced on base form, mono grass stab is such a nerf comparatively)
I find this no different than how offense varrients HAVE to make sure they have answers for raging neck and gambit, or how the HAVE to account for reliability getting out offense by mons like banded rillaboom, like every set of dragonite, roaringmoons extremely fast booster speed tier etc. So because Wellspring has such clear strengths and weaknesses I'm less inclined to see why it deserse to be banned over say a mon like Darkrai that cam kinda just stat cliff is way into being threatening for a large varriety playstyle not just balence cores. But in all honesty I think there's something beautiful about this gen and how there's so many strong pokemon and strong strategies everywhere that everyplaystyle has a few ops that they have to account for in the builder to succeed. There's no comp that's positive to neutral is every match up and I feel that helps the meta feel less solved and thus more adaptable and fun imo.
I think this was a more elaborate less memee version of what that other fella was trying to get at
1
it's trash, always has been. i rarely use it. gking had 90% usage before this 'mon even came out because it's uninteractive nonsense. that ain't changing.
I’m not going to list kyurem counterplay here because you don’t actually want it. You just want something to refute.I’ve already shared it; play something more aggressive.
Let me get this straight, you are getting annoyed by passive aggresive comments? Yeah, maybe look at your own tone, because you have been very passive aggresive since you started posting in this thread, as they say "treat others as you want to be treated". And I have read their comments, and they have not been passive aggresive, just simply blunt.Ok this is my last response bc I’m getting annoyed by all the passive aggressive comments and it’s hard not to hold contempt for that kind of communication, but I don’t want to be rude to anyone individually, so anyway:
I'm sorry, but this is just a bunch of yapping. There is no moral difference between offense or stall, they are both equally valid. You are barking up the wrong tree, calling something 'brainless' or 'healthy' is not morally right or wrong, it is simply there opinion.It’s disingenuous of you to say there’s no moral quality. These words are all things people have used to describe these Pokémon or playstyles. Calling something brainless, healthy, or respectable absolutely carries moral judgements by their definition. There is a quality of goodness to all those terms. There’s an apparent bias in how those are applied by most in this thread, As more eloquently put by my sidekick and first mate. If you don’t agree with that then we’re speaking different languages and that’s ok too.
Trust me, we do want kyurem counterplay (nobody wants to ban mons when they are alright in the meta, at least from there point of view), but you refuse to withhold this from us apparently. And saying "just play something more aggresive" is not really helpful. If offense was struggling in a meta, I would not say "play something more defensive". As stated MANY times before, all playstyles should be viable. If something is severly restricting multiple playstyles, then that is problematic. Nobody playing stall (and I talked with multiple pro stall players on this) wants ursaluna banned, people want things banned because they are restrictive to a lot of things.I’m not going to list kyurem counterplay here because you don’t actually want it. You just want something to refute.I’ve already shared it; play something more aggressive.
Eh. If Vert believes that Kyurem isn't an issue based off their own experience, I don't see how that is insincere. Like, are we not supposed to give our honest opinions on the survey?This is not a random but a top player. But I think we can both agree that this take is hyperbolized and rather insincere. "I haven't had any trouble with Kyurem (because I play offense), so it's trash!"
Eh. If Vert believes that Kyurem isn't an issue based off their own experience, I don't see how that is insincere. Like, are we not supposed to give our honest opinions on the survey?
Sure, it uses hyperbolic language, but let's be real, most survey posts use it. And I say this as someone who believes Kyurem should go.
Eh. If Vert believes that Kyurem isn't an issue based off their own experience, I don't see how that is insincere. Like, are we not supposed to give our honest opinions on the survey?
Sure, it uses hyperbolic language, but let's be real, most survey posts use it. And I say this as someone who believes Kyurem should go.
I completely agree with this. If Vert's offense teams shit on Kyurem, describing it as trash based on his experience is legitimate even if it's hyperbolic in nature. There is nothing insincere about about his take, and players need to learn to accept other player's opinions. Kyurem does have clear weaknesses in being SR weak and having a middling speed tier with some very nasty weaknesses to Rock, Steel, and Fighting, which other Dragon-type Pokemon don't share, all of which reduce Kyurem's splashability, which is the main reason Vert called Kyurem dogshit. I myself want Kyurem banned, but I'm not going to accept someone calling Vert's take insincere just 'cause he thinks Kyurem has no business not being banned.
I don’t even play tourneys but I think this is just unnecessarily disrespectful. Folks’ complaints about Waterpon and Zama is “whining”. Got it. And we were just talking about respecting peoples’ opinions.tour players however are always late on trends and will whine about it in a couple weeks.. this is one of many waves that come-and go. first it was breaking swipe goug then wellspring then zama now this.