Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Kyurem suspect now up]

[Roshino]

so, three days in (and one thousand posts!), i've got three questions for everyone:

1. what's the most heat set you've used so far?
2. what's the most ridiculous smeargle set you've seen on ladder or in tours? (follow-up: did it work?)
3. what's your hottest take on the viability of one of the new, returning, or changed mons?

Most heat set: HDB Mold Breaker Hawlucha with encore, defog, double 120 BP stab. With slow turn support you can do all fast encore shenanigans PLUS spit on Gholdengo's mouth, clear hazards, and you still get immediate prio into something that threatens it. You also fuck up no-booster valiant and ogerpon, and STAB CC/BB does not require boosts to make progress if you're not planning to sweep with it.

Hot (some scorching) takes:

1) Reuniclus survived power creep like a champion and its bold Calm Mind set is cool as fuck, even considering all of the dark-types running around
2) Quagsire has the potential to be the best phys wall in OU currently if you got a plan for grass-types
3) On the other hand, Archaludon as a phys wall is high key trash - vulnerability to ground and fighting as a phys wall with no recovery is a death sentence. Its offensive sets are dope as fuck though
4) We're way too deep into power creep
5) Garganacl, assuming you build with teraing it in mind, has never fallen off and it is in fact suspect worthy. The thing is it is so boring and mind-numbing to play, whilst not fitting very well onto stall, that it is (fortunately) not played often.
6) Water Absorb Wishpass Vaporeon is hella viable on balance teams - It can simply eat whatever Sun-boosted specs wake Draco Meteor you got. It also MURDERS Alomomola's momentum due to blocking Flip Turn, and you can Tera ground safely (Water Absorb) to fuck with Raging Bolt and Zapdos. Its wishpassing is also still great because it also acquired Flip Turn on DLC1, and Scald threatens pretty much anything, meaning you get plenty of entry for your offensive mons.
7) Mew's Bulky Dragon Dance sets are kinda strong.
8) Excadrill, along with the Ubers drops will cause Gholdengo to avoid the ban hammer for just long enough and we'll be stuck in this Hazard hell until gen 10
9) Scizor should be OU. Knock off and Technician steel prio is stupid strong in this meta, especially against booster energy mons.
10) I'm incredibly glad the council has been very open recently. That said, although I understand it must be stressful, some instances of dismissive behavior irk me the wrong way
11) Covert Cloak is incredibly strong on special walls if you got hazard under control. It denies mortal spin, nuzzle, you completely remove Shadow Ball/Discharge hax from the equation. Counter-leading Glimmora with it turns the game into a 6v5 in your favor.
12) When the fuck did Fighting-type become synonymous with quadruped? Why is Tusk a fighting type? What kind of Kung Fu does Zamazenta practice? Where are my Iron Fist mons? I blame the swords of justice.

Cold-ish (I guess lol) takes:
1) Opening the Ubers gates as soon as the DLC dropped wasn't the play and gen 9 will pay for it long-term. We should've waited a bit to see what's up
2) Deoxys-S's Modest offensive sets are absolutely wide open busted, and its lead sets are kinda mid in this meta because taunt is useless against H-Samurott.
3) Specs Latios is the one of the best wallbreakers in the game. It is a slow(er) pult that hits considerably harder. It also has Flip Turn if you wish to pivot as well. 110 speed is no joke. You tear a hole in anything slower, and you annihilate anything faster that would dare switching in
4) Latias is also incredibly strong and its CM Tera Fairy Draining Kiss sets are kinda crazy if you manage Toxic and Gambit well enough
5) Keldeo with some basic support is one of the best sweepers in the game and new toy syndrome is kinda hiding it
6) Corviknight has always been kinda mid this gen. It does resist a ton of stuff, but it simply does not generate enough value to justify how passive it is, especially when compared to things like Alomomola, Dragapult, and Glowking. It does generate momentum, but you first have to kill your momentum switching it in so even then it isn't that great.
7) Banded Landorus-T with Tera Blast Flying is strong as fuck and people are sleeping on it.

 

[Kenpwnchi]

so, three days in (and one thousand posts!), i've got three questions for everyone:

1. what's the most heat set you've used so far?
2. what's the most ridiculous smeargle set you've seen on ladder or in tours? (follow-up: did it work?)
3. what's your hottest take on the viability of one of the new, returning, or changed mons?

Clangorous Soul Smeargle. Like, these boys out here really using Smeargle-o.

 

[tigers jaw]

so, three days in (and one thousand posts!), i've got three questions for everyone:

1. what's the most heat set you've used so far?
2. what's the most ridiculous smeargle set you've seen on ladder or in tours? (follow-up: did it work?)
3. what's your hottest take on the viability of one of the new, returning, or changed mons?

uhhh

1)

Hide

Latias @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Aura Sphere
- Calm Mind
- Agility

not really that hot, but it takes a mind as twisted as mine to see a new meta & think of the funniest & most fucked up way to crush people.

featured in the zero-skill team i posted in the previous page. you can use latios if you’re feeling extra spicy because the power difference, especially when boosted, is significant & the +def can make up for the shortcomings in bulk. latias is better tho.

2) all smeargle sets are inherently ridiculous by virtue of the clownmon holding the moves, next

3) blaziken is unironically broken & people will see in time. this mon has no place alongside tera.

edit: wait latias gets draining kiss????? lmaooooo dd latias bros we are so up

 

[NotDaProGamer]

so, three days in (and one thousand posts!), i've got three questions for everyone:

1. what's the most heat set you've used so far?
2. what's the most ridiculous smeargle set you've seen on ladder or in tours? (follow-up: did it work?)
3. what's your hottest take on the viability of one of the new, returning, or changed mons?

1. Morpeko @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Hunger Switch
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aura Wheel
- Parting Shot
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
Stop laughing I'm still using the rodent to spin.
2. I got my daily dose of humour with rage fist smeargle against me. Do you think Smeargle can tank multiple hits? NO.
3. Araquanid will be a better webs setter than Ribombee.

 

[heileone]

Man I really gotta disagree with serp being as high on the viability rankings as it is, this thing is so garbage. I couldnt even tell you why since in theory it should be great but in practice grass is a joke type, stellar tera doesnt do enough for it, its too slow, and usually at most it gets one para + chip in exchange for being a massive drain in team support and tera support.

 

[Cuddly]

Man I really gotta disagree with serp being as high on the viability rankings as it is, this thing is so garbage. I couldnt even tell you why since in theory it should be great but in practice grass is a joke type, stellar tera doesnt do enough for it, its too slow, and usually at most it gets one para + chip in exchange for being a massive drain in team support and tera support.

Honestly the big thing is Glare. Thunder Wave is already stupid, but at least you can use either Ground or Electric types or some form of ability immunity to switch into it, and it can miss too.
Ground types aren’t immune, so neutral ground types don’t switch in.
Most Electric types aren’t bulky enough and Grass is resistant to Electric.
You can’t miss.
And this is all in a pretty fast pace metagame where while Serperior is fast, there are still several Pokemon faster than it and it ruins many Pokemon in general.

 

[Return to Zero]

Man I really gotta disagree with serp being as high on the viability rankings as it is, this thing is so garbage. I couldnt even tell you why since in theory it should be great but in practice grass is a joke type, stellar tera doesnt do enough for it, its too slow, and usually at most it gets one para + chip in exchange for being a massive drain in team support and tera support.

Serperior is nuts, I dunno what to tell you. It can take some finessing to actually get it into position, but the threat level of it is so high that you can usually bait the opponent into dumb stuff. Glare whatever outspeeds you, Substitute on free switch turns, pick and choose your coverage. It doesn't even need Stellar to be amazing, listen to how many people here have brought up good Tera types for it. Respectfully, I think if Serperior isn't giving you any results, there's an issue with how you're using it.

 

[NotDaProGamer]

Man I really gotta disagree with serp being as high on the viability rankings as it is, this thing is so garbage. I couldnt even tell you why since in theory it should be great but in practice grass is a joke type, stellar tera doesnt do enough for it, its too slow, and usually at most it gets one para + chip in exchange for being a massive drain in team support and tera support.

What the heck? Is a base 130BP move which increases your Sp.Atk by +2 a joke to you? Really, is the 17th fastest mon and probably 11th fastest of mons staying in OU, outspeeding the s and outspeeding the lati twins not much to you? Is the paralysis on speedy mons not great support? If isn't helping you, maybe make a good team with it? Nobody cares if Stellar isn't that good on it, after all several people have already said that honestly Tera Ground still might be better. Most offensive teams can easily slot on a and spam leaf storm against an OU where EVERY SINGLE Unaware mon is weak to Grass, Ground or is Clefable, which cannot do much back.

 

[Wolf-X]

I agree that Serperior isnt a S tier mon. But its great and far from bad.

It does have issues, it is VERY Tera hungry, and really wants some support like webs and grassy terrain, but thanks to glare + subs and its ever growing power its a true menace.

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Fighting/Stellar/Ghost/Ground
EVs: 56 Hp / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Substitute
- Glare
- Tera Blast

This is imo the best set, Tera type is the biggest variable, each Tera has some pros and cons.

 

[MrE]

I agree that Serperior isnt a S tier mon. But its great and far from bad.

It does have issues, it is VERY Tera hungry, and really wants some support like webs and grassy terrain, but thanks to glare + subs and its ever growing power its a true menace.

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Fighting/Stellar/Ghost/Ground
EVs: 56 Hp / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Substitute
- Glare
- Tera Blast

This is imo the best set, Tera type is the biggest variable, each Tera has some pros and cons.

Not sure I see its need for webs support at all tbh very few pokemon in the tier naturally outspeed it and threaten it, can you explain further please.

 

[cyrtie]

Would you guys say Latias is better than Latios in this gen?

 

[Wolf-X]

Not sure I see its need for webs support at all tbh very few pokemon in the tier naturally outspeed it and threaten it, can you explain further please.

It doesnt need it but without them its fairly easy to revenge kill, so its very grateful to have them around imo. Due to power creep there are plenty of mons that outspeed it, and most can KO or nearly KO it from full Hp

 

[Goodstyle]

Is it a hot take to say that Kingambit is the most banworthy thing in the meta right now? It still does the same shit it's always been doing, and it gets really fucking annoying when the difference between winning and losing is just guessing if your opponent is gonna sucker punch or not. That's not even getting into the bullshit it pulls with tera. It'll be at the end of the game, and I'm just clicking court change/SD on my cinderace/blaziken to stall out its sucker punch pp, it's just miserable to play against.

What is Gambit doing to Archuladon, Gouging Fire, or Iron Defence Skarmory (not to mention Keldeo when people realize that's good)? Skarm especially is really hurting Gambit right now. Everyone and their mother is running ID Skarm now, and you have to remove it before literally doing anything with Gambit.

 

[NotDaProGamer]

What is Gambit doing to Archuladon, Gouging Fire, or Iron Defence Skarmory? The last thing especially is really hurting Gambit right now. Everyone and their mother is running ID Skarm now, and you have to remove it before literally doing anything with Gambit.

Tera blast?
No, to be realsies Gambit isn't that broken anymore and is more of an ommnipotent force but we have a lot of good checks to. Top tier still, but it is nowhere near its previous heights.

 

[RoiDadadou]

What is Gambit doing to Archuladon, Gouging Fire, or Iron Defence Skarmory? The last thing especially is really hurting Gambit right now. Everyone and their mother is running ID Skarm now, and you have to remove it before literally doing anything with Gambit.

Same thing with Corv before, did not prevent Gambit from being overbearing and unhealthy.

 

[Bugboy]

Raging Bolt is insane as an anti sun tech while also being a bulky tank. Having them set up sun for your boosts and spamming dracos and priority make the matchup hard to lose. (Playing in the 1600s-1700s currently)

What are the favorite sets for this guy? I’ve been using calm mind lefties with flying Tera but I’m sure I could do something better.

 

[MrE]

It doesnt need it but without them its fairly easy to revenge kill, so its very grateful to have them around imo. Due to power creep there are plenty of mons that outspeed it, and most can KO or nearly KO it from full Hp

Mons that are faster than it and can revenge ko it from full;

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 277-327 (90.8 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 256-302 (83.9 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Tera fairy stops this

252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 289-342 (94.7 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Again, Tera fairy

Darkrai is a problem for Fairy tera

252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 276-325 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 276-325 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Water works pretty well here though.

252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 396-468 (129.8 - 153.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tera fairy

252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 558-654 (182.9 - 214.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada U-turn vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 320-378 (104.9 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tera fire solves this.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Ice Beam vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 229-270 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Gren isn't really a problem and any of the tera's discusses so far completely shut Gren down.

252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 378-446 (123.9 - 146.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

All the tera's discussed so far stop this.

252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 374-442 (122.6 - 144.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

All the tera's discussed so far stop this.

Unless I've missed somebody these are all the mons who naturally outspeed Serp and can threaten a KO and one of Fire, Water or Fairy tera avoids the revenge kill on all of these. Sticky webs supports is just not needed at all for Serp.

 

[ImZer0]

Would you guys say Latias is better than Latios in this gen?

imo yea but honestly both are good with the new buffs they got, im leaning towards latias a bit as of rn at least cause scarf hwish has immense utility on most of the teams ive been running(ie: some excattar teams, boots spam teams as well) same with the cm draining kiss sets on some veil/screens teams, but specs latios is insane and im loving that this gen too honestly

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

Would you guys say Latias is better than Latios in this gen?

Nah, they've always had slightly different roles, enough to where there's some overlap but they don't really compete enough to really put one over the other.

 

[NotDaProGamer]

Y'know, I think people really take stealth rocks for granite. After all, simply saying they are good is an underslatement-after all, it is a big part of many mons' viability and/or freedom of items ( and )

Affect of Rocks

All rock weak pokemon in OU.
: Lead mon
: Good in spite of Rocks, sets it back though
: Needs a lot of support
: Only in OU to remove it (always runs boots)
: Not staying in OU
: Not staying in OU
: Always runs
: Probably going to die to a hit anyway
: Not staying in OU
(Gouging Fire): Stronk in spite of Rocks, sets it back though
: Not staying in OU
: Good in spite of Rocks, sets it back though
: Good in spite of Rocks, sets it back though
: Not staying in OU
: Not staying in OU
: Not staying in OU
: Hazard Lead
: Cuts into viability, good in spite of it
: Not staying in OU
: Definitely Ubers without having to run
: Often runs .
See, a good amount of mons which would otherwise be good are forced into lower tiers due to taking 25% upon switch in at the click of a button.

Meanwhile... Every single mon which can set rocks currently in OU.

Rock Setters

I dirtainly didn't write this whole post just for the pun about taking rocks for granite and that that's an underslatement, right? 'winks aggresively'

 

[Edu]

That's true, but at the same time Serperior doesn't need to stop its offensive momentum in order to set up - its strongest STAB literally also functions as Nasty Plot - additionally, Serperior invalidates whole playstyles like Sticky Webs thanks to Contrary and its MU fishing is more deadly than Volc's imo due to the ease of Tera Fire/Tera Ground melting things.



Enamorus is better right now than it was in Pre-DLC or DLC1 by a pretty notable margin (especially Scarf variants as they can outspeed Deo-S). STAB Moonblast combined with Earth Power, Contrary Superpower, Sludge Bomb, etc. is POTENT right now.

I did not know how stellar bs TeraBlast worked, now I know, ban it already

 

[Just A Shroom God]

I agree that Serperior isnt a S tier mon. But its great and far from bad.

It does have issues, it is VERY Tera hungry, and really wants some support like webs and grassy terrain, but thanks to glare + subs and its ever growing power its a true menace.

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Fighting/Stellar/Ghost/Ground
EVs: 56 Hp / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Substitute
- Glare
- Tera Blast

This is imo the best set, Tera type is the biggest variable, each Tera has some pros and cons.

do not sleep on the Subseed set, there's a secret hidden tech that no one else has discovered yet. When serperior gets both a glare and a seed on the opponent, its ability changes to Bullshit which is able to afflict the opponent with the status condition known as "Mental Anguish". This slowly drains their "will to play" bar until they hit the forfeit button.

Y'know, I think people really take stealth rocks for granite. After all, simply saying they are good is an underslatement-after all, it is a big part of many mons' viability and/or freedom of items ( and )

How do I like a post more than once

 

[NotDaProGamer]

do not sleep on the Subseed set, there's a secret hidden tech that no one else has discovered yet. When serperior gets both a glare and a seed on the opponent, its ability changes to Bullshit which is able to afflict the opponent with the status condition known as "Mental Anguish". This slowly drains their will to play until they hit the forfeit button.

How do I like a post more than once

you like this bonus post
to avoid being a one liner isn't archaludon like tower bridge in london? it is strong and is often in rain.

 

[Marce]

so, three days in (and one thousand posts!), i've got three questions for everyone:

1. what's the most heat set you've used so far?

I've actually been liking using Sap Sipper Azu as a pretty hard check to Serperior, and it's also helpful somewhat vs Gambit and Gouging Fire with a Whirlpool trapping set. Goofy but surprisingly effective imo.

 

[658Greninja]

I wanna discuss two mons that I have really loved using in the meta and they share similar roles.

Meowscarada @ Choice Band
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flower Trick
- Knock Off
- Triple Axel
- U-turn

Meow is a fun mon to mess around with in ladder, particularly this set. Very good at making process with Knock + Banded STAB U-Turns. The highlight though is the addition of Triple Axel which I find people taking for granted. In one slot, Meow can cover for Amoonguss, the birds, and dragons. It can even 2-shot Skarm (make sure you Knock its Helmet off first) thus having an excellent matchup into Skarm/Ting-Lu/G-King balance cores, since many of them are weak to ice and hate losing their Boots. It helps that it 2-shots every Knock absorber with Flower Trick/T-Axel. Meowscarada can also help with certain matchups like Serp, Manaphy, Veil, and Balance while asserting pressure everytime it hits the field.

(Weavile is not in Unite so here’s it’s Peakken Tournament render)
Weavile @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ice/Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick/Beat Up

With T-Axel back in its kit, Weavile is ready to become a meta defining staple. Boots is the best set but Band is fun to play around with, albeit being more support reliant. Band Vile fits on Cinder/Tusk Voltturn cores that make use of its ability to be a threatening wallbreaker and speed control with hard hitting Ice Shards. You could also pair it with the classic duo of Tran + Pult to put up the pressure vs Kingambit. The added power of T-Axel lets Weavile pull off feats like one shot speedy varients of Tusk or have a narrow chance at OHKOing physically defensive sets. Even Boots Zama can get 2HKOd by Banded T-Axel. Overall just a good mon that will most likely rise into OU usage.

Weavile is a smige better than Meow due to priority Ice Shard being invaluable in a meta where HO is one of the biggest archetypes. However Meow trades reliable priority for the ability to be an amazing pivot that is not weak to rocks. Triple Axel gave both these sneaky bastards the necessary power boost to break into OU viability, with Weavile barely reaching it in DLC1. They also pair well with some of the new Pokemon like Raging Bolt. If you’re interested in using them, try these teams out yourself.

https://pokepast.es/ed027c54b6b08c01 (Band Weav)

https://pokepast.es/03a1985fffd7eaee (Band Meow)

This may or may not be a controversial take but the new additions actually help round out the meta. Minus Deo-S and Moon but those li’l shits ain’t staying for long. Iron Boulder is an example. With Booster, barely anything can outspeed it, but that also gives HO a tool to handle Booster Valiant, Volc, and Scarf Enam. It’s inclusion in the tier also encourages the use of other physically bulky ground types since Gliscor loses the 1v1. Mons like Lando-T, Chomp, and even Hippo can find use. Volcarona can often tech Tera Ground/Tera Water to beat its checks, but Tran as an example is often paired with Rillaboom who just comes in to Rkill it. Plus other options like SpD Gliscor, Dnite and Toxic Glowking that help teams check it. Heck, I would argue that the best archetype rn is Balance, not HO. DLC2 gave bulkier builds more options in the builder.

Take Skarm for example, its a physical wall that can set spikes and be a ground immune in one slot. It also helps check Moon, Rilla, Gambit, and Boulder. Hydrapple, Raging Bolt, and Gouging Fire are not only strong offensively but defensively, patching out Balance’s issue of being too passive. The amount of bulky ground types also discourages usage from Zapdos which is good cause fuck Zapdos. I don’t think the meta is balanced yet per say, but there is an argument to be made that it’s more enjoyable. After a couple of bans, we should be on the right track. Just ban Deo-S, Moon, Ghold, and maybe Gambit, then we’d be on the right track.