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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 ( NEW SURVEY UP, POST 20,700 )

Fun: 8
Competitive: 7
I won't lie these scores were probably a bit higher than they should have been, but I do think that SV OU is currently in its most fun and balanced state. It is definitely not perfect, but I feel like a lot of things are better than they were at the same time a year ago.

:dragonite: 3
I don't think any of the pokemon mentioned are particularly problematic enough to be suspected but this is easily the closest pokemon to being one. It has an insane variety of sets, is easily the best abuser of tera in the tier, has an insane defensive ability, got encore for some reason, and even has priority to top it off. Still, I think there is enough to hold back Dragonite to where I think it is still a fine pokemon. All of those sets do have genuine counterplay once you figure out what the set is and while guessing wrong can lead to a loss, I think in most instances it is a genuine skill issue if you can't guess what set Dragonite is based on the team composition is (even if tera does obviously complicate thing).

:kingambit: 1
It may still be quite a scary pokemon but I think it has plenty of counterplay at this point to where I think it isn't problematic at all. It absolutely has to use sd and sucker punch and almost always uses kowtow cleave which only leaves one spot open. This predictability makes Kingambit quite a bit easier to take down and I think it is enough to where I can say it is at least fine if not healthy.

:ogerpon-wellspring: 2
I have already explained multiple times before that I do not think Wogerpon is outright broken and I won't keep repeating myself. However, I will say that I do think she might not be healthy. I think the thing that brought me to this realization is the fact that she learns spikes. Wogerpon is not only a pokemon that can set spikes, but she is also a pokemon that beats most other spike setters, and she can do that while also being a powerful offensive threat. Wogerpon isn't like gen 7 Greninja either who set spikes to provide pressure as she genuinely has real defensive properties that make it a great spike setter. This on top of the other insane moves she has like synthesis and u-turn are definitely enough to convince me that Wogerpon, while not broken, is probably not healthy as she can take so many roles that make it genuinely hard to replace on many teams.

:kyurem: 2
I think I put this as 1 on the survey but I meant to put it as a 2. This pokemon has the same problem as Dragonite where it has a variety of sets that can be hard to predict. However, because Dragonite outclasses it so much when it comes to its physical sets, I think Kyurem is definitely not nearly as problematic in comparison. I probably would keep it at 1 but Kyurem is still quite dangerous thanks to its special sets also being hard to predict and the fact that if Dragonite is ever banned physical sets will potentially be problematic again.

:walking wake: 1
Listen I get now why it was on the survey and it is quite hard to beat on sun teams but it is also a pokemon that is only good on sun teams imo (balance Wake is not real) and sun teams have plenty of counterplay. It also doesn't help that Walking Wake is pretty much forced to use a choice scarf as it needs to outspeed so much to be effective. This of course leads to the problem that every choice locked pokemon suffers from which is the need to make perfect predictions and this is especially hard for Walking Wake considering fairy types and Wogerpon exist. It is not a bad pokemon by any means but I do not think it is problematic in the slightest because it has so many limitations.

:gliscor: 1
Gliscor is not problematic imo as it is very predictable with its defensive sets. It also isn't that threatening with sd as it has to choose whether to use knock off or earthquake as both can be played around rather easily and both moves are bad into Corviknight.

:roaring moon: 3
I am a bit mixed on this one as while I do like the meta more without it, there were certain advantages to the Moon meta, and I do not think it was banworthy.

Other: In hindsight I wish I answered Terapagos but I originally wrote about tera blast as while I don't think it is broken, I do think it deserves a suspect at this point.
 
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Fun: 4
Competitive: 7

Gen 9 probably won't be remembered as a great or balanced generation, but it will at least be memorable with Tera shenanigans.

:dragonite: 5

Do we really want a generation with tera + multiscale + 1000 sweeper sets? There is a set of this pokemon that beats every team and I really don't think there needs to be. It's extremely hard to predict this mons set, and it can run away with games like nobody's business.

:kingambit: 4

+2 Tera dark + 5 allies fainted sucker punch can OHKO defensive gliscor, and is a guaranteed OHKO if you have black glasses. This pokemon is a sweeper with the second highest attack in all of OU, all while its tied for the 6th highest defense in OU, the 7th highest HP in OU. Do we really want to engage in sucker punch 50 / 50s with this overtuned monster? While encore and chip are potential things to wear it down, the most competitive and most ideal tier is better off without kingambit.

:ogerpon-wellspring: 5

I think a healthy tier, and the tier we should be striving for is where there are both offensive and defensive answers to various pokemon. Ogerpon has virtually no viable defensive answers, and thus functions as an accelerant to the metagame. The 350 speed benchmark is very oppressive and keeps offensive at the top while suffocating defensive teams. +2 SD Tera Water Ivy Cudgel can OHKO both Zamazenta at +1 and Weezing Galar. Do we really need this in the tier? We do not need the stockholm syndrome that is wellspring to continue to dictate the metagame with it's extreme offensive, defensive and utility capabilities.

:kyurem: 4

10/10 I support bringing back the fraudulent Russian elections for this one. Similar to dragonite it's boosting and damage capabilities are very hard to cover for, with DD and specs sets countering each other's walls, and mixed sets for a headache of a mix-up. Tera ground or fire is amazing coverage allowing kyurem to run away with games in an instant. This would be a 5 if it wasn't for it's loaded dice icicle spear & scale shot sets being able to handle dragonite multiscale.

:walking wake: 2

It's strong, and it's great on sun. It has defensive answers like galarian slowking and AV primarina, and offensive answers like I-val, enamorus, and specs-pult. I don't think this really needs a ban, but I recognize it's strength, hence 2.

:gliscor: 3

Gliscor is in one word: annoying. Immunity to status on a defensive wall with the best chip heal in the game and 2 immunities very strong. However this is doing some stuff to keep otherwise insane boosters at bay, and is functioning as a powerful defensive wall, spikes setter, and overall force slowing the meta down. Drag, gambit, wellspring, and kyurem frankly take priority as the most banworthy things in OU, but once they are handled I'd like to return to this, especially if the metagame without those 4 is especially suffocated by gliscor afterwards. Hence, 3 for we can keep it for now, but in the future it's likely something I'd like kicked out.

:roaring moon: 1

It's not a priority to bring this back.

Roaring moon was a fun mon, but only in the sense that it felt like the first few months of a new metagame where obviously broken stuff is legal. Tera fairy was overwhelming, tera steel and ghost turned the tables on counterplay, booster energy + DD felt impossible to wall. For those who loved roaring moon, it was good while it lasted, but I don't think it leads the way to a better metagame. Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.

Other: Tera in team preview PLEASE
 
Survey time woo

Enjoyment: 8/7
I find the meta to be fun, pretty much every mon in OU is good and viable and even some goofballs in like trick room, garchomp, blaziken, oger teal, and more keep things pretty interesting. The gameplay itself is as fun as ever, it's very tactical and very positional while being aggressive, tera keeps being my favorite gen gimmick, opens a lot of options, keeps you on your toes and can bail you out offensively or defensively, lots of strategy and timing behind it. With that said the meta is slightly samey on what you encounter; your tusks, zamas and ting lus are present in pretty much every match, which is not a bad thing necessarily, but they keep in check so many things that it becomes a bit hard to experiment and deviate from the meta, dumb stuff like dnite makes both building and playing really unfun to try. Overall good with some issues (that might not be necessarily addressable?)

Competitiveness: 9/8
Proooobably the most balanced the meta has been all gen, pretty clear cut what's good, pretty clear cut how to stop it, even with the clear top mons there's still a good amount of variety, nothing is super ultra overbearing in gameplay and at top level (at least from what I've seen in recent tours) is usually decided by who plays better which is a good sign. Some mons can be a bit goofy which I'll discuss next

Dragonite: 4
I think dragonite has to go and it's the one very clear blemish I find in the meta. I've been saying this guy is broken since before roaring moon testing and I still think dnite is more broken; very uninteractive to play against, you either have the perfect mon against it or your team just loses to it on preview and there's nothing you could've done, and you have no way to actually know if it's either. There's things you can do against it and I do see some points about it having some counterplay but I think the experience of preparing against it in builder and playing against it is just way too much. It can do a million different things and when one set catches on and it becomes the best guy of the month, people start building for that, and when that set or couple of sets aren't the biggest issue people go back to old dnite sets or even new stuff to always keep dnite on top. Nothing to do, goodbye dnite

Kingambit: 2
It's been 3 years grow up. Obviously insane mon but literally every team ever is overprepped for it, the set variety makes it really annoying but I don't think it's unreasonably strong for this meta; loooots of options to answer it, and at least for me lately losing against it feels more like the opponent played it well rather than gambit being absurd

Ogerpon-Wellspring: 2
Meh, it's fine. You have to for sure have something in your team for it in order to not lose but so do gambit, bolt, zama, wake and more. It strains building a little but playing against it is fine. Obviously strong but not insane

Kyurem: 2
Meh, it's fine. The best mons against it are some of the best mons in the meta: gking, zama, gambit, ghold; some others like crown, valiant, heatran, garg, clef, ace, pult, blissey, defensive tera, priority in general and even more if it teras. You can naturally check kyurem without trying too hard; and it has a bit of a dnite thing going on in the sense that it has many sets that can beat different things, but you usually have something against almost every set it can go for, and some of its sets aren't even all that. The variety might throw people off but I don't think it's that crazy; very strong but I don't even consider it a top mon

Walking Wake: 1
What are you doing here :sob:

Gliscor: 2
2 because I specifically hate playing against it and I think it's cheap, boring and uninteractive. But objectively it's fine

Roaring Moon retest: 3
Genuinely don't care one way or another, if stays banned cool, if we test it cool too. It's probably too strong but I'm not opposed to test it


Bunch of 2s in this one because I'm not blind and I can see they are really strong and have some issues, but I don't think any of them but dnite is ban worthy at all. Even in this overpowered ass gen I think we are at a decent point in regards to balance. I'll make a separate post later about what I would unban/look into :glaceon:
 
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Done :blobthumbsup:

Suprised to not see Ghold on the survey, feel like a lot of people have been complaining about it recently. Also Walking Wake? I haven't played the tier that much recently, has there been any developments with it?

Also why is Moon on the survey lmao, nothing has changed
nothing ever happens
Survey time woo

Enjoyment: 8/7
I find the meta to be fun, pretty much every mon in OU is good and viable and even some goofballs in like trick room, garchomp, blaziken, oger teal, and more keep things pretty interesting. The gameplay itself is as fun as ever, it's very tactical and very positional while being aggressive, tera keeps being my favorite gen gimmick, opens a lot of options, keeps you on your toes and can bail you out offensively or defensively, lots of strategy and timing behind it. With that said the meta is slightly samey on what you encounter; your tusks, zamas and ting lus are present in pretty much every match, which is not a bad thing necessarily, but they keep in check so many things that it becomes a bit hard to experiment and deviate from the meta, dumb stuff like dnite makes both building and playing really unfun to try. Overall good with some issues (that might not be necessarily addressable?)

Competitiveness: 9/8
Proooobably the most balanced the meta has been all gen, pretty clear cut what's good, pretty clear cut how to stop it, even with the clear top mons there's still a good amount of variety, nothing is super ultra overbearing in gameplay and at top level (at least from what I've seen in recent tours) is usually decided by who plays better which is a good sign. Some mons can be a bit goofy which I'll discuss next

Dragonite: 4
I think dragonite has to go and it's the one very clear blemish I find in the meta. I've been saying this guy is broken since before roaring moon testing and I still think dnite is more broken; very uninteractive to play against, you either have the perfect mon against it or your team just loses to it on preview and there's nothing you could've done, and you have no way to actually know if it's either. There's things you can do against it and I do see some points about it having some counterplay but I think the experience of preparing against it in builder and playing against it is just way too much. It can do a million different things and when one set catches on and it becomes the best guy of the month, people start building for that, and when that set or couple of sets aren't the biggest issue people go back to old dnite sets or even new stuff to always keep dnite on top. Nothing to do, goodbye dnite

Kingambit: 2
It's been 3 years grow up. Obviously insane mon but literally every team ever is overprepped for it, the set variety makes it really annoying but I don't think it's unreasonably strong for this meta; loooots of options to answer it, and at least for me lately losing against it feels more like the opponent played it well rather than gambit being absurd

Ogerpon-Wellspring: 2
Meh, it's fine. You have to for sure have something in your team for it in order to not lose but so do gambit, bolt, zama, wake and more. It strains building a little but playing against it is fine. Obviously strong but not insane

Kyurem: 2
Meh, it's fine. The best mons against it are some of the best mons in the meta: gking, zama, gambit, ghold; some others like crown, valiant, heatran, garg, clef, ace, pult, blissey, defensive tera, priority in general and even more if it teras. You can naturally check kyurem without trying too hard; and it has a bit of a dnite thing going on in the sense that it has many sets that can beat different things, but you usually have something against almost every set it can go for, and some of its sets aren't even all that. The variety might throw people off but I don't think it's that crazy; very strong but I don't even consider it a top mon

Walking Wake: 1
What are you doing here :sob:

Gliscor: 2
2 because I specifically hate playing against it and I think it's cheap, boring and uninteractive. But objectively it's fine

Roaring Moon retest: 3
Genuinely don't care one way or another, if stays banned cool, if we test it cool too. It's probably too strong but I'm not opposed to test it


Bunch of 2s in this one because I'm not blind and I can see they are really strong and have some issues, but I don't think any of them but dnite is ban worthy at all. Even in this overpowered ass gen I think we are at a decent point in regards to balance. I'll make a separate post later about what I would unban/look into :glaceon:
icl i would put my enjoyment more at a 6/7 (sorry i had to do it)
 
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