Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING SURVEY UP]

Rain Teams in SV OU
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So with discussions about potential suspect targets getting more heated, I thought I should cool it off a bit with a SV archetype that has had ups and downs in the DLC2 metagame, rain. Rain initially hit it off very well after people discovered that Archalduon was, let's say, broken. Rain preceded to dominate both tournaments and ladder during the time period Arch was allowed in the ier, but after the bridge was banned, rain saw a meteoric falloff. However, players have experimented with rain since then and have come up with some pretty unique team compositions that have pushed the boundaries of rain. I personally think that rain has potential to be a top tier playstyle and I have compiled a list of the different mons that can abuse rain.

The Rain Setter(s)
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The primary rain setter, Pelipper boasts a ton of useful traits. Water/flying typing is only weak to rock and 4x weak to electric, which while this sometimes can be a problem does work out in most cases. It also has quite good physical bulk, which if invested can make it pretty tough to take down on that side, and also allows it to invest more into its special defense. It also can hit quite hard with 100% accurate hurricanes and rain boosted surfs (weather ball can be used, but surf is more reliable). Pelipper also has quite a few utility options at its disposal. The most obvious are roost and u-turn. Roost allows pelipper to keep itself healthy over the course of the match, something which is exclusive to it and hippowdon in the weather setting department. U-turn allows pelipper to get teammates in easier by taking a hit and then slow u-turning out into these rain abusers.

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The only reason that I put the bracketed s in the title of this part, politoed is mostly outclassed by pelipper, and for good reason. Pelipper has a much better defensive typing, much better bulk and a variety of moves that politoed wishes it has. There are some niches options that politoed gets that pelipper doesn't though. Encore is the big thing, with it giving free turns to rain abusers. It also is much faster then pelipper, which while usually detrimental to it as pelipper can slow u-turn out to a teammate, means with investment, politoed can outspeed some threats that pelipper may struggle with. Chief among these is raging bolt, who oftentimes can give rain some struggle, but politoed can invest enough speed to outspeed the standard set and lock it into thunderclap or calm mind, which can force it out and give rain some breathing room. Finally, politoed has some cool coverage moves, the two main ones being earth power and focus blast, hitting some types for super effective damage that pelipper cannot do the same to. Despite all the positives I listed, politoed is not recommended as the rain setter, but maybe somebody could squeeze out something from it that pelipper cannot replicate.

The Standard Swift Swimmer
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Yes, barraskewda gets its own section, that's how important it is for rain teams. Barraskewda is the fastest and most powerful swift swimmer in SV OU (that doesn't kill itself with its moves) and cements it as an almost mandatory slot. With flip turn, barra can pivot out of threats while still doing good damage. Boosted liquidations hit hard even on resisted mons and with tera water, an even slightly weakened team can crumple to boosted hits. Aqua jet allows barra to pick off any slower priority users (such as gambit) instead of being ko'd by them. Lastly, close combat is a great coverage move which smacks most common resists for big damage. Choice band is the standard, but mystic water can also be used to still have big damage but have the ability to switch up moves. Some niche coverage options are ice fang and poison jab. Tera ghost can help deal with dragonite, something that can ignore aqua jet's priority with extreme speed.

The Other Swift Swimmers

I will firstly state that I will not be discussing every mon that gets swift swim, only the ones that do have a genuine place on rain teams, though of course every swift swimmer can work to some degree.

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The next best swift swim option, kingdra is the only viable special swift mon in the tier and is able to do solid damage with its attacks. It can either go with a specs set or a focus energy set. The specs set is more immediately threatening and can afford to fit more coverage into its moveset or flip turn to pivot out of walls. The focus energy set trades the ability for immediate damage in return for very powerful and consistent damage. This way, kingdra doesn't have to worry about draco meteor special drops at all and thus can overwhelm some teams with the sheer power and move flexibility it has.

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Another amazing swift swim mon, basculegion has immense power with boosted wave crashes and flip turns that can really put on the hurt. Basculegion can also fit on ice fang, which other swift swim mons cannot do usually, to deal with the dragon and grass types that wall other swift swimmers. Basculegion does need to go jolly in order to outspeed booster valiant under rain, so that is definetely an issue for it. You can also use its other ability, adaptability, to deal massive damage to even resists while giving up on speed. Basculegion is a mon that has two very different pathways that can both work well.

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A rising star on rain teams, Overqwil fills a lot of important holes for rain teams. Overqwil is a poison and dark type, which lends itself nicely for dealing with rillaboom and gambit, two priority users that rain struggles against. It also can absorb toxic spikes, which while not a huge deal since treads is very reliable at keeping them off and the fast pace of rain teams, can still be an issue. Overqwil can hit hard with its stabs+liquidation after an sd boost, which while somewhat unideal, isn't too much of a deal when its dealing massive damage. Waterpon does not like switching into overqwil, which is a big thing. Alternatively, overqwil can drop sd for some other supportive move, though this is not recommended unles the rain team can compensate for the lower power. Spikes, destiny bond and toxic spikes can all provide valuable utility to a team. Overall, overqwil is a really dynamic mon on rain teams that fills a ton of holes.

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The most niche of the swift swimmers, floatzels main issue is being mostly outclassed by barraskewda. Barra is faster than it and hits a bit less hard, but still hits hard enough. However, for raw power with amazing speed, floatzel has you covered. With rain boosted wave crashes, floatzel hits extremely hard, with even bulky resists taking massive damage (dondozo is 3hit ko'd by tera water wave crash under rain, which is insane). The moves on floatzel are the same as barraskewda, flip turn, aqua jet and cc all provide floatzel moves to click before it will kill itself from the recoil.

The Electrifying Electrics
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The premier thunder abuser on rain teams, raging bolt provides a lot of utility to rain. It firstly acts as a great waterpon check as its able to wall both stabs and weaken it with thunder or thunderclap, depending on whether the waterpon has clicked sd or not. Secondly, it acts as a dangerous wallbreaker for rain, with the combo of weather ball, thunder and dragon pulse/draco meteor not having many switchins. Raging bolt can also pick either booster which has good power but allows it to switch up its moves, specs to deal absurd damage or AV to take a lot of special hits. Raging bolt is a mostly one note mon but it is an invaluable part of rain teams.

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Although usually outclassed by raging bolt, zapdos can still find a niche on rain teams. It's main advantages over raging bolt are stab hurricane to deal with tusk and grass types easier, the ability to switch into ground types easily and a higher speed stat meaning it can actually threaten most ground types not named iron treads (who won't do much to it). With the combo of thunder, weather ball and hurricane, zapdos can threaten a lot of the tier. It's last moveslot can be one of roost, volt switch or agility to change up its counterplay quite a bit.

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The third, and most niche of the main electric abusers, thundurus therian is a really strong mon that has decent coverage in order to hit the grass and ground types that wall its stab thunders. It also packs volt absorb to temporarily stop any raging bolts that try to click electric moves against rain teams, which is usually a big pain for them to deal with. Tera electric thunders can deal absolutely absurd damage to teams that have lost their ground type, making it a devestating wallbreaker. There is also the possibility to use hammer arm to hit blissey for big damage, but just don't. A more utility focused set with u-turn/volt switch and knock off to cripple walls is a decent idea and something the other electric types can't accomplish.

The Scary Steels
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An almost mandatory slot on rain teams, treads fills the niche of a ground type, raging bolt check, stealth rocker and rapid spinner all into one slot that cannot be replicated be much on rain. With a ground/steel typing, iron treads can be quite defensively sound without a fire weakness and can do solid damage to some things. It's moveslots are also somewhat customisable after the mandatory stealth rocks and rapid spin. You can either go physical with e-quake, iron head or ice spinner, or special with earth power or flash cannon. Knock off can remove items from pesky opponents like ghold, steel beam can do solid damage if invested and allows treads to get off the field quicker and finally volt switch can pivot out of a battle into an abuser. Overall, treads is a really important part of rain teams and at worst should be heavily considered on them.

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What would an SV anaylsis post be with the supreme leader himself, Kingambit (not Finchinator though sadly, would love to see him on a rain team lol). Kingambit loves the reduced fire damage and detterence of mons that usually counter it in tusk and fast fairy types that rain provides while in return acting as a great wincon and bulky mon that they can fall back on. Kingambit is the go to steel mon that abuses the reduced fire damage rain provides. It can either use the more offensive variant to clean up games easier, or use the bulkier set with a wack tera type like flying or fairy in order to set up easier.

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Tinkaton has found itself being used on all kinds of teams more so lately as a really good disruptive mon. On rain teams it can accomplish a similar role. With pickpocket it can steal opposing mons items to really disrupt their gameplan and with mold breaker it can t-wave on ghold and hatterene and stealth rock on the latter. With knock off and encore, tinkaton can be really disruptive and still do pretty good damage with ice hammer, gigaton hammer or play rough. The reduced fire type attacks means that it can even do this on mons it usually couldn't, such as iron moth. Tinkaton also gives rain a decent answer to bolt with encore to lock it into one of calm mind, thunderclap or dragon pulse.

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Hisuian Goodra is a mon that has quite the defensive profile for rain teams, with it having great defense and special defense in order to wall lots of the metagame. With rain allowing for goodra to use thunder and boosted hyrdo pumps, it can deal solid damage to any team. With draco meteor as well, it can threaten quite a lot of common mons. It's last moveslot can either go to another coverage move in sludge wave, ice beam or flash cannon, a physical option in e-quake or body press or knock off to provide utility. As stated beforehand, hoodra can wall a lot of threatening mons which includes raging bolt, rillaboom and waterpon which is otherwise difficult to do. Overall, hoodra can provide great firepower and excellent defensive prowress all in one mon.

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Ghold is a mon that does have potential on rain teams, but can sometimes be lacklustre. With boosted thunders, some mons such as gambit or hamurott that might switch into it are taking big damage from thunder (hamurott is ohko'd by thunder). However, it faces stiff competition with other steel types and thunder doesn't hit as hard as it likes due to not having stab on it. There is potentially a rain team structure that could bring out the best of ghold, but that has yet to be implemented.

The Water type Warriors
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As they say "If you can't beat them, join them". Despite being a major annoyance for rain, they can utilise waterpon themselves to deal pretty great damage. With a set of SD, ivy cudgel, grass stab and play rough, waterpon can deal massive damage. Tera water and rain boosted ivy cudgels can even OHKO bulky resists such as raging bolt. It can also provide utility in encore or knock off if needed while still being threatening if it doesn't sd up. Overall, waterpon can be quite great on a rain team and can deal heavy damage to opposing teams.

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The other water type OU mon that fits well in rain, primarina can be pretty offensively threatening. With calm mind, primarina can boost itself up further in order to sweep. With surf and either moonblast or draining kiss, primarina hits a lot of the tier for big damage, as even usual checks in glowking are overwhelmed. In the last moveslot, primarina can slot any of substitute, flip turn, energy ball or stored power (the last one being a favourite of mine). Prim can also go in a different route with liquid voice psychic noise helping in the stall matchup by making sure blissey and clodsire cannot heal off its damage.

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Azumarill is known to be a hugely threatening mon, but under rain its a different beast. With rain boosting its liquidations and aqua jets, azumarill can pick up kos it usually wouldn't. With belly drum, it can massively boost its attack at the cost of 50% of its health. Frailer resists such as roaring moon can potentially be OHKO'd by a +6 aqua jet under rain, which means most things will falter after some chip. Azumarill can also provide a temporary stopgap to raging bolt, as it is immune to its dragon moves and thus you can pivot into a electric resist/immunity much easier. This of course can be unreliable, so be careful. Overall, azumarill can be a dangerous cleaner on rain teams that can snipe targets it should have no reason to ko.

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The once poster child of rain (besides keldeo), greninja still has a place on these teams. Despite its mediocre 103 special attack, boosted rain moves can still hurt many mons. If greninja picks up a ko, it becomes insanely scary for the opposing team to deal with due to battle bond (protean is nice, but not as good). After that, its hits will be chunking even resisted targets for big damage. Greninja can also utilise water shuriken to get past some priority users in kingambit and raging bolt. It also has amazing coverage, with all of ice beam, grass knot, sludge wave and extrasensory being good moves to choose. Overall, greninja can be slow to get going, but when it does it can be very devestating.

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The OG water type rain abuser, keldeo still finds itself as a valuable mon on rain teams. There are two directions you can go with keldeo, either a specs set that deals pretty amazing damage with priority in vacuum wave and pivoting in flip turn, or a cm set that can snowball out of control. I believe the cm set is better as it helps a lot against stall, something which rain has difficulties dealing with. Unless they have amoonguss or toxapex (which tera steel kinda walls then), they won't really be able to much in return to you. Taunt is an option on these sets so pex or amoon can't toxic you or recover off the damage to try and stall keldeo out. Keldeo also helps against kingambit, resisting both stab moves, so its a nice interim measure against it. Overall, keldeo is still really amazing on rain teams and can help in difficult matchups.

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Despite massively falling off this DLC compared to its potential brokeness in DLC1, manaphy still has a good place on rain teams. Manaphy can go for two different routes to boost itself. The first is the more straight forward, by utilising tail glow to massively boost its special attack, manaphy can use rain boosted surfs to slam even resists for big damage (raging bolt takes 60% min from a surf) and can use coverage moves in ice beam, alluring voice and energy ball in order to hit some bulkier resists. The second option is by using the double dance set, with acid armour and take heart manaphy can boost itself to make itself unkillable on both sides. It can then use rest in order to heal itself immediately and its ability hydration means it wakes up immediately. Despite only having scald as an attacking move, manaphy can be a frightening presence with this set that teams can severly struggle against.

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Quaquaval is definetely more of a niche option, but can be devestating if done well (Magcargo also hates this mon, which is something lmao). With sd and aqua step, quaq can boost its speed while dealing amazing damage with rain boosted aqua step's. Every ko of course makes it even more powerful, so sacking mons (which is sometimes what you have to do to outplay rain) is no longer viable. With its fourth moveslot, it can pick a few moves. Rapid spin provides a speed boost while acting as secondary hazard removal, ice spinner, brave bird and knock off can hit crucial targets for big damage and roost can help quaq in the longevity department. Quaq can be pretty deadly on rain despite mostly being outshined, so it can definetely put in the work.
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Volcanion is a niche option on rain, but can work quite well. Although you can no longer use flamethrower reliably, boosted steam eruptions are absolutely devestating to opposing teams, doing massive damage to even resists. It also helps a lot against waterpon due to being immune to water type moves, resisting play rough and having solid physical bulk to take power whips. With sludge bomb, it can do solid damage to it and make sure its sweep is limited. Overall, not a bad mon on rain, just difficult to fit in with all the other abusers.

The Hurricane Hitters
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I didn't mention this in the water type section since I believe it is a bit too niche to be used consistently, but not too niche to mention in the below section, so here it is. Walking wake is mainly known for being on sun teams, utilising boosted hyrdo steam's along with proto boosted attacks to deal frankly absurd damage. However on rain, despite being more niche, it can still provide some serious firepower. Rain boosted hydro steam's still hit hard on many mons and in rain wake can used 100% accurate hurricanes that can deal with the grass types that wall hyrdo steam. It also helps massively in the sun matchup, abusing their own weather to its own effect in order to deal massive damage to the opposing team. Wake is probably bordering on the niche side of rain abusers, but it can work well.

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Dragonite has established itself as a good rain mon with it having both thunder and hurricane, which only zapdos has besides some very bad mons (sorry kilowattrel fans). The defensive profile of dragonite is very good for dealing with waterpon, a nightmare matchup for rain as most know, while not lacking offensively. You can either go with a fully special set, using moves like draco meteor, hydro pump, hurricane and thunder to suprise teams that expect a physical dragonite, or a mixed set with some of the above moves but also including coverage like low kick, e-quake and the obviouse e-speed to hit teams on their frailer side always. There is also the agility set that can clean teams up really easily late game by outspeeding most things in the meta. Dragonite is a really dynamic mon on rain teams that can provide a lot to the table.

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(Mf looking very cursed today) Tornadus therian is the secondary hurricane abuser on rain teams, utilising some of the most powerful hurricanes in the game and amazing speed to decimate unprepared teams. With nasty plot, torn-t can reach quite high power levels and has great coverage to back it up. All of weather ball, grass knot, sludge bomb, dark pulse, focus blast and psychic are valid coverage options to hit mons that resist your stab move. It can also slot in utility options such as taunt, knock off and u-turn to annoy teams further. Finally, with regenerator, torn-t can be suprisingly bulky and does not mind taking chip damage too much.

The Niche Names
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Now, it may seem weird for me to put basculegion female on this list due to the fact that not only is it a swift swim mon, but it's male counterpart is in the swift swimmer category. However, that last part is what kills its viability, why use a ghost/water type swift swimmer when the male version is much better at it. Well, the main thing is hitting on the special side, which is nice, but isn't enough. However, there could be some team that lets basc-f thrive, so I thought mentioning it here was a good idea.

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Crawdaunt used to be a staple on rain teams due to having strong adaptability boosted crabhammers and aqua jets that absoluely decimated teams. However, in SV where everything can get adaptability boosted moves by using tera, crawdaunt has fallen off combined with its low speed and fraility sometimes being too much of a hinderance. Furthermore, the large amount of priority in the tier means sometimes even aqua jet isn't enough to alleviate its speed issue. However, crawdaunt is still by far one of the scariest attackers in rain if it gets an attack off, with either sd or tera water making it do mind boggling damage numbers (like crabhammer in rain at +2 with tera water doing min 75% to multiscale dragonite, which is absurd).

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Wugtrio is a bad mon. I'm not even going to sugarcoat it. But Delibird Heart used it to win a OU room tour, so it's worth a mention. In his own words "the team would be a gajillion times better if you simply replaced wug with like rbolt or keldeo or any other rain abuser lol".

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Bellibolt despite being one of the best mons ever, sadly isn't really good in SV OU. However, spook used it in his Bellibolt Rain Team to get 2nd on the ladder, which is an impressive feat. With a mono electric typing, bellibolt is much better as an AV user, with it having less weaknesses then the other bolt. Bellibolt's ability, Electromorphosis, allows bellibolt to power up its next electric type move to absurd levels after getting hit. With tera blast fairy and weather ball, bellibolt can deal super effective damage to a lot of threats while being a good defensive mon.

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(Assume this is the aqua form, I couldn't find the pmd sprite for it) Tauros aqua is a mon that not only can abuse rain, but can also be a good check to a few threats to rain. Primarily, it is a great check to kingambit as it resists both stab moves and can fire back with a powerful CC. Boosted wave crashes can also put the hurt on targets that think its going to be more defensive. It can also use two different abilities to increase its survivability. Intimidate is the better of the two, making tauros much bulkier on the physical side, while cud chew is more niche but with sitrus berry can be a nice option to recover 50% hp, acting as a pseudo recovery move.

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Ludicolo was once the pinnacle of swift swim abusers, but has since fallen out of favour as better abusers have been introduced. However, ludicolo can find a niche on rain teams by using its second ability, rain dish, and using a more defensive ev spread in order to survive a myriad of hits. With leech seed and encore, ludicolo can sometimes just shut down entire mons, walking wake being chief among them as it can survive two draco meteors and get a leech seed off. Other mons such as kingambit will be encored and leech seeded until they switch out, giving the team breathing room. I haven't used this mon in a while, but I am confident it is still good in this meta.

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Although mostly outclassed by treads on rain teams, tusk can still act as a ground type that can control the hazard game on both sides of the field. It is more offensively threatening than treads could ever hope to be, with headlong rushes higher bp and tusk's higher defense stat meaning it can take more hits. However, treads is most of the time a better option due to its higher speed and volt switch, but tusk deserves a mention.

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Finally, I'm going to list a mon that I have been experimenting with a lot that has had a decent amount of success from my testing. Jolteon is the fastest non boosted thunder user in the game, and it also is completely immune to electric moves, which helps against one of the more difficult matchups for rain in raging bolt. With tera fairy, jolteon can actually sit on raging bolt for days, forcing it out and making sure it doesn't want to come in. With calm mind, thunder, alluring voice and weather ball, jolteon can be suprisingly threatening to a large variety of mons as not much can outspeed it. Overall, a mon that I think has great potential on rain teams due to its unique traits.

Conclusion
As can be seen above, rain has a lot of variety in its team options and can quite varied in its mons that abuse it. I feel like with a bit of boundary testing, rain can thrive in this meta, or at the very least be a great playstyle. Is there any I missed? Do you think there is an obvious mon I missed? (like golduck lmao)

Also thank you to everybody on the TrainerAid Discord for helping me out with some of these mons, some of which I didn't even consider in the first draft of this.

And thank you to anybody how read this. I know that this is a lot to read, and most may skip over, but if you read even half of this than I hope you have learnt something about pokemon's wettest archetype.
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
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OU Leader
wrote that while sitting in a Vet's Office for 2 hrs so I was partially venting my frustration at that through the post. So I can see why it came off as aggressive, and inflammatory. My bad.
You’re all good. What matters way more is whatever issue you and your pet encountered is resolved. We aren’t here to fight or pick each other apart, but rather ultimately understand each other. Sometimes we all use more blunt tones, but seldom is it personal.

Wishing you the best
 
What is your goal in terms of proficiency? Do you want to get #1 on the ladder and then show it off in a RMT thread? Do you want to be Tournament contender?
For me, my first goal was very humble; breaking 1400 as while I dabbled with Pokemon for awhile (I remember what Shoddy Battle looks like), I never applied myself until now and when I did, I learned more about the meta regards to what I appreciate, what I hate and the thousands of things that can bend you over. While this can seem daunting, there's a certain satisfaction found in making a team (or even borrowing a team that someone posted) that can at minimum contest the meta and then refining it over many games. Even if the current meta is extremely violent, there's still different ways to combat the various challenges in the tier, just with a (currently) narrower, but still rich pallet of team styles that will continue to rapidly develop through the current tier's lifespan.
Aside from all that, if all you feel is dread playing a game, then play something else that you can apply yourself to without pulling teeth. I played a bit of Master duel, but after awhile, it felt like I had to force myself to play given how much happens in YGO turns and how 'dense' combos can get until I decided to shelve it (though I don't think YGO is an coin-flip OTK/FTK fest that's rotted by power-creep as non-players believe). If really want to get good at the game, you're going to have to accept it for what it is and grit your teeth so you can actually engage with the game on its terms and contribute to tiering action, even if you only reach that level right when the current gen ends. Worrying about how good you never get or how unsavory a game is won't help you.
I would like to be able to play and team build more consistently, which has become basically impossible isince DLC2. I have hit 1800 a few times with teams I built, but those teams pretty immediately become obsolete with how rapidly the meta adapt and my elo plummets. As I said before, I think mid ladder and high ladder are vastly different (mid ladder being harder in someways), below 1500 HO/offense is still dominant and you can often lose on preview to some random Tera set up Mon you didn’t anticipate or hope you get some RNG before your opponent does. It often feels for teambuilding it’s throwing a bunch of stuff at the wall and hoping something sticks but just accepting you’ll be hopeless for certain matchups. It is what it is, but this meta is good for people who were already proficient players or good with HO.
 
If you’re wondering why I haven’t been posting as much high-quality content lately, its because my enjoyment for the tier has lowered.

Reason 1: Matchup Fishing
My main issue with the tier is its matchup fishy nature. Throughout my experience fighting some of the best players on the ladder, I find that for like 55% to 70%, the game is decided on matchups. In this gen its never been easier to 6-0 teams with just a single mon.

Here’s an example.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2128398664?p2

In theory, my opponent’s team has multiple counter measures to Moth, the main one being Future Sight Gking and Sucker Samu, but then I just reveal Tera Dark and it was just over. They may have just preserved their Garg, but there was no telling if it was Tera Dark or the standard Tera Ground.

Surprise tech has always been a thing, but in Gen 9, you could outright lose the game because of it. I’ve even ran into someone using Scarf or Sash Cinderace, just to fuck with Treads leads and Boosters. No reason to run it over ol’ reliable Boots unless you specifically were fishing for HO teams.

There’s something off about it and I couldn’t pinpoint the exact reason why the tier is matchup fishy. The Volc ban eased things but Gen 9 OU still feels like a game of Rock Paper Scissors eerily similar to Gen 5 among other similarities it has with the tier. While it is possible to account for multiple matchups, we run into the next problem with the tier.

Reason 2: Building Difficulty

Teambuilding is always a difficult process of making, testing, and revamping, but SV OU is imo the most difficult to build in. The tier has several fantastic glue mons like Zama, Gambit, Pult, Gking, etc, but with the amount of threats in the tier, it feels difficult to make the most of your slots.

Unless you’re running Stall, HO, or Weather. Most good SV OU teams need to have..

A breaker

Something speedy

Priority cause not having it screws you over most of the time

A rocker

A knock user cause then Boots Spam rolls over you

A Ghost resist cause Pult/Ghold will make your day miserable

A Steel cause Kyurem will ruin you

1 or more pivots cause it makes your life easier

An Electric immune cause Bolt

A Ground immune cause Earthquake and HLR are spooky

A Fairy check

A Wogre check

A Fire resist cause otherwise Cinderace clicks Pyro for free

A way to deal with Tspikes cause of Glimmora

And make sure you have a check to the rest
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Oh and if you’re not running Boots spam, HO, or BO, you need hazard control cause you might get 6-0d by Webs.

This doesn’t seem all bad until you realize you often can’t fit everything you need.

Everytime I build something that isn’t HO, I often end up scrapping it or completely reworking it cause there’s so many flaws. I always end up with same generic team structures like a standard Boots Spam, Cinder/Lando/Gking/Gambit/Zama team, or run BO. Part of all this is contributed to the fact that there’s so many boxes to check and so few options to do so.

Another part is that Tusk, is not as reliable or splashable as it was in previous metas.

:sv/great tusk:

While obviously still fine, it feels awkward to slap on teams. The first reason is that it overlaps with the mons you want to run, mainly Lando and Zama. You could run both but you end up with 2 Water weak/Fairy weak mons with similar roles. This wouldn’t be a problem if Tusk didn’t lose to 90% of the fucking metagame. The things it does check its inconsistent at doing so. Dnite, Gambit, and G-Fire all Tera through it, Raging Bolt OHKOs Tusk with Pulse if it doesn’t have any bulk investment and 1v1s anyways with Tera Fairy. Guess what, Zama and Lando also check these mons and more with better consistency. Around that point I just say fuck it and either run Lando + Cinder or just run no removal at all. Tusk has a 4MSS, wanting Bulk Up to actually beat Tera Gambit and G-Fire 1v1, Knock Off, or Rocks. So you end up needing 1 or 2 extra slots just for that. Tusk almost always needs Boots because Webs just 6-0s it anyways, but it would love having Helmet to punish Gambit/Zama/Dnite or Lefties for recovery, which means you need secondary hazard control for Webs anyways. Tusk has a hard time investing in bulk because it needs to power and speed to consistently vs Ghold, hence why the only good Tusk set is offensive. Unless we see a new meta altering set for Tusk that shoots it back up to top 3 status, I consider Tusk to be overrated with a meta that’s unkind to it. Teams that rely on Tusk to spin are difficult to pilot, let alone build, because it doesn’t do enough defensively compared to other Grounds or Zama.

This meta’s issues are problems with no clear solutions. The random movepool cuts and power level being higher than in previous gens made things a mess, but I think there is a direction we can go to make things better. There are two mons I would like to see get suspected.

:sv/ogerpon-wellspring:

This is the most broken mon in the tier rn and several players agree. Wogre is the single best breaker in OU off of a great speed tier for its role and having a 0 drawback base 100 power Water STAB that crits for some reason cause fuck balance ig. You can straight up spam Cudgel most of the time because Water types are scared of you, its free chip vs Dragons, and Wogre can pair itself with mons that punish Grasses who don’t even reliably check it btw besides Amoonguss. Sinistcha dies to +2 Knock and needs to land a burn to beat it, Serperior isn’t real anymore, Rilla takes over 40% from Pwhip and doesn’t OHKO back without Tera, and Wo-Chien dies to U-Turn. Before you say Hydrapple

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Hydrapple: 410-484 (99 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

and this shit does nothing back.

You can even run Trailblaze + Encore which 6-0s some offenses.

Suspecting Wogre after or during WCOP is the best course of action rn, because removing it makes checking everything else easier. Wogre’s checks like Dnite, Zama, and Pult are needed for other things, hence they can be preserved in a game-to-game basis.

:sv/gliscor:

This is a controversial take, but this shit is broken. The utility sets are fine, there’s several mons in the tier that take advantage of it, but it’s the SD sets that push it overboard. It lacks the immediate power of Wogre or Kyurem but it outlasts all its checks and has plenty of opportunities to come in. Name a longterm check to this……You can’t. Either they don’t punish Gliscor significantly enough, or they get worn down by Knock + hazards. Even Skarm/Corv lose longterm since Gliscor can stay in the game long enough to burn their Roost pp. Gliscor is so tanky on the physical side that it can just dump points into SpD for Hexpult, Moonblasts, and random special hits that otherwise 2HKO you. Your best response to Gliscor is to run Corv + fast mon with Ice moves or bring Encore (or run HO). That is if Gliscor doesn’t decide to just go for the win with Tera Normal or Water or Fairy. This is made harder by the fact you can’t predict if it is SD. You could pivot into something like Wogre, then it just Toxic’s it or sets up hazards. Gliscor is a contributing factor to the MU fishy nature of SV OU, because its matchup vs offense isn’t great but it farms the hell out of Balance and Stall. While Gliscor provides benefits to the tier defensively, but the dynamic it creates harms the meta in the long run.

There are other mons some players have argued for a suspect, but those are the two main ones I think we should get out of the way. I’ve been back and forth with Zama, but imo it fixes more problems in the builder than it creates. Its too soon to act, but we should have this discussion until the time comes to take action.

:swole:Stay strong OU
Thanks for this post. It’s well articulated and reasons through the burnout that many of us have been feeling. I don’t want to change the subject too much but I do feel that at least a part of the matchup-fishy threat over-saturation in Gen 9 is due to Tera. SD Gliscor going to Tera Water, Gambit going Tera Ghost to beat Tusk and the Iron Birds, Iron Moth going Tera Dark… there are simply so many permutations that can cause a loss to even the most well prepared and well-played teams. But I don’t intend this to be a saltpost and I recognize that the ship on Tera action has probably sailed. It’s also not the only factor since this gen has also seen substantial powercreep and hazards creep. For what it’s worth I think the council has done an excellent job working with what’s at hand and balancing the many different viewpoints and player contingents who inevitably advocate for different things.

One other unrelated thing. From my personal experience, fat balance teams can sometimes get away with not running a fastmon as long as they have priority. Very bulky mons like Dozo and AV Glowking are a godsend to fat balance structures by hardstopping a lot of fast sweepers, reducing the need for speed control. I’ve been sitting around the 1800s with a team revolving around these two fatmons and Sucker Punch Gambit in the back. For the record, the fastest mon on my team was a Waterpon.
 
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Did some legit laddering for the first time since base sv and I gotta say it felt even more brain dead than usual. I ran webs + hisuian sam +ghold and it legit felt like cheating. Anytime someone predicted ghold it didn’t matter because hazards are so broken that even sacking your ghold to keep them up seems like a fine trade. I see why ribombee got so high on the viability ranking. The stupid string cheese feels so dumb.

Also has anyone ever tried wide lens h-samurott? I slapped it on mine and it felt so nice never missing razor shell or ceaseless
 
Apparently the concept of unhealthy is no longer applied as it should, Mega-Sableye in ORAS suffered 2 suspects and 1 ban for much less.
Gholdengo has both excellent offensive and defensive stats, an excellent typing, a restrictive and limiting ability, making Taunt, Trick, Defog and even Skill Swap ineffective. And a moveset with wide coverage with the help of Nasty Plot, solid recovery, and utilities like Trick and Thunder Wave for speed control. But if the Pokémon is very versatile, it seems more practical to say that it suffers from 4MSS and cannot do everything at once, because to be broken it needs to check all the few answers in the same set, neutralize the 2 or 3 defensive cores that obviously your opponent has space to bring and even prepare his breakfast and iron his clothes. (He does this on his surfboard.)
In addition to being unhealthy, we have things that, due to this nefarious and apparently untouchable mechanics, are beyond the control of skill and go beyond the scope of gresswork. Hello Kingambit.
I could still say how Kyurem and Waterpon are oppressive and how Zamazenta looks like a 4MSS when in fact the best choice most of the time is simply ID + BP, Roar was enough of an innovation to show how out of the curve this dog is.

But don't waste your time replying to me, I won't be able to understand the explanations. I'm a casual player who doesn't reach the top of the ladder and doesn't participate in tournaments (even though some participants in group tournaments end up with a negative score or reach the final stages just by being carried by their teammates, no, it wasn't an attack personal to no one, this has been happening forever.), your "ha ha'' reaction is enough for me to know that we don't share the same opinion and that's ok. Because at the end of the day the community is divided or playing tricks on the concept basic rock-paper-scissors with a repulsive mechanic that encourages guesswork over skill, which was obviously designed for doubles, but we won't touch on it in singles.

TL;DR This metagame is the epitome of shit, no matter what philosophical scope you wanted to put on it.
Gholdengo is unhealthy shit and Terastal makes revenge killing unfeasible in addition to rewarding guesswork.
 
Apparently the concept of unhealthy is no longer applied as it should, Mega-Sableye in ORAS suffered 2 suspects and 1 ban for much less.

But don't waste your time replying to me, I won't be able to understand the explanations. I'm a casual player who doesn't reach the top of the ladder and doesn't participate in tournaments
Well, Mega Sableye was banned mostly due to how many people had tuned out of the meta given the meta was on its last days. It wasn't that hard to actually overwhelm in the long run with its 50 Base HP. You are right that Gholdengo is way more powerful than Mega Sableye with not only superior bulk but also elite Special Attack, a usable speed tier, the ability to use an item, and also powerful tools such as Nasty Plot and Trick. It basically curbstomps really slow-paced teams since the main way of beating it is to outoffense it.

You're selling yourself short here. Casual players don't routinely qualify for suspect tests like you do. Even without being a tournament player, you're most likely in the top 10-15% of players on Smogon. Your opinion does matter even if a lot of people don't agree with you and embrace the overall higher power level. A lot of Gen 9 OU mons would be banned within days or weeks in previous generations. There is still time to improve the meta, so don't take it too badly that the pace of action isn't to your satisfaction.

By the way, you have very good taste as a Frieren enjoyer.
 
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Apparently the concept of unhealthy is no longer applied as it should, Mega-Sableye in ORAS suffered 2 suspects and 1 ban for much less.
Gholdengo has both excellent offensive and defensive stats, an excellent typing, a restrictive and limiting ability, making Taunt, Trick, Defog and even Skill Swap ineffective. And a moveset with wide coverage with the help of Nasty Plot, solid recovery, and utilities like Trick and Thunder Wave for speed control. But if the Pokémon is very versatile, it seems more practical to say that it suffers from 4MSS and cannot do everything at once, because to be broken it needs to check all the few answers in the same set, neutralize the 2 or 3 defensive cores that obviously your opponent has space to bring and even prepare his breakfast and iron his clothes. (He does this on his surfboard.)
In addition to being unhealthy, we have things that, due to this nefarious and apparently untouchable mechanics, are beyond the control of skill and go beyond the scope of gresswork. Hello Kingambit.
I could still say how Kyurem and Waterpon are oppressive and how Zamazenta looks like a 4MSS when in fact the best choice most of the time is simply ID + BP, Roar was enough of an innovation to show how out of the curve this dog is.

But don't waste your time replying to me, I won't be able to understand the explanations. I'm a casual player who doesn't reach the top of the ladder and doesn't participate in tournaments (even though some participants in group tournaments end up with a negative score or reach the final stages just by being carried by their teammates, no, it wasn't an attack personal to no one, this has been happening forever.), your "ha ha'' reaction is enough for me to know that we don't share the same opinion and that's ok. Because at the end of the day the community is divided or playing tricks on the concept basic rock-paper-scissors with a repulsive mechanic that encourages guesswork over skill, which was obviously designed for doubles, but we won't touch on it in singles.

TL;DR This metagame is the epitome of shit, no matter what philosophical scope you wanted to put on it.
Gholdengo is unhealthy shit and Terastal makes revenge killing unfeasible in addition to rewarding guesswork.
De repente caralho

Yeah, it's clear the definition of broken is more and more subjective and revolving around "well, there is counterplay" and people so often forget the basic dimensions of what is broken that only the absolutely blatant shit is being considered. Fuck, drop Arceus and the meta will warp enough to counteract it. Gholdengo and Gambit live in a limbo of "well, everyone is running multiple checks so it's fine" well fuck everyone is running multiple checks because those two are so centralizing you gotta run with it or you get smacked around like a 900 elo player once they get a single opportunity (which they will because of Tera, but I digress).

It's even more stressful because mass dropping Ubers after Indigo Disk set us back so much. Instead of dropping a couple at a time and identifying the ones that are fine (Deoxys for instance), Gen 9's lifespan is spent dealing with the crater the mass drop caused:

We had to resuspect Volc which was clearly overpowered

Reading the forums makes it clear people are still unhappy with Gliscor because it is almost single-handedly making everyone run random Ice coverage. Even Landorus wasn't able to do anything remotely similar because the only counterplay is to hit Gliscor really fucking hard (and ofc I'm not getting into SD and other specifics here because of post size). Gholdengo is doing something similar (both are, outside of very specific instances, effectively immune to status moves and make games revolve around them).

Darkrai is only alive because its signature gimmick got outright banned, and even then it is clear it is very strong without an ability entirely subsisting off of sky-high BST. Zamazenta's doing something similar, with the excuse that it holds Gambit off.

Both RM and Kyurem are still controversial and running through teams left and right

And...

I'm overextending myself. You get the idea. Stuff like Gambit, Gliscor, Ghold, Zamazenta, Wogerpon - they tick off SO MANY boxes showing they're oppressive but tiering action is still busy with DLC mass drops, and if (big if) tiering action keeps a steady pace without 55%+ DNB results we'll be done so close to 2026 that by then gen 9 has passed us by entirely.

-

About the hahas. I dunno man some people use it exclusively as an attempt to mock another player without any wish to actually engage, and not only just "hey, I disagree", so I pretty much ignore those
 

Duck Chris

replay watcher
is a Forum Moderator
Rain Teams in SV OU
View attachment 637067

So with discussions about potential suspect targets getting more heated, I thought I should cool it off a bit with a SV archetype that has had ups and downs in the DLC2 metagame, rain. Rain initially hit it off very well after people discovered that Archalduon was, let's say, broken. Rain preceded to dominate both tournaments and ladder during the time period Arch was allowed in the ier, but after the bridge was banned, rain saw a meteoric falloff. However, players have experimented with rain since then and have come up with some pretty unique team compositions that have pushed the boundaries of rain. I personally think that rain has potential to be a top tier playstyle and I have compiled a list of the different mons that can abuse rain.

The Rain Setter(s)
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The primary rain setter, Pelipper boasts a ton of useful traits. Water/flying typing is only weak to rock and 4x weak to electric, which while this sometimes can be a problem does work out in most cases. It also has quite good physical bulk, which if invested can make it pretty tough to take down on that side, and also allows it to invest more into its special defense. It also can hit quite hard with 100% accurate hurricanes and rain boosted surfs (weather ball can be used, but surf is more reliable). Pelipper also has quite a few utility options at its disposal. The most obvious are roost and u-turn. Roost allows pelipper to keep itself healthy over the course of the match, something which is exclusive to it and hippowdon in the weather setting department. U-turn allows pelipper to get teammates in easier by taking a hit and then slow u-turning out into these rain abusers.

View attachment 637074
The only reason that I put the bracketed s in the title of this part, politoed is mostly outclassed by pelipper, and for good reason. Pelipper has a much better defensive typing, much better bulk and a variety of moves that politoed wishes it has. There are some niches options that politoed gets that pelipper doesn't though. Encore is the big thing, with it giving free turns to rain abusers. It also is much faster then pelipper, which while usually detrimental to it as pelipper can slow u-turn out to a teammate, means with investment, politoed can outspeed some threats that pelipper may struggle with. Chief among these is raging bolt, who oftentimes can give rain some struggle, but politoed can invest enough speed to outspeed the standard set and lock it into thunderclap or calm mind, which can force it out and give rain some breathing room. Finally, politoed has some cool coverage moves, the two main ones being earth power and focus blast, hitting some types for super effective damage that pelipper cannot do the same to. Despite all the positives I listed, politoed is not recommended as the rain setter, but maybe somebody could squeeze out something from it that pelipper cannot replicate.

The Standard Swift Swimmer
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Yes, barraskewda gets its own section, that's how important it is for rain teams. Barraskewda is the fastest and most powerful swift swimmer in SV OU (that doesn't kill itself with its moves) and cements it as an almost mandatory slot. With flip turn, barra can pivot out of threats while still doing good damage. Boosted liquidations hit hard even on resisted mons and with tera water, an even slightly weakened team can crumple to boosted hits. Aqua jet allows barra to pick off any slower priority users (such as gambit) instead of being ko'd by them. Lastly, close combat is a great coverage move which smacks most common resists for big damage. Choice band is the standard, but mystic water can also be used to still have big damage but have the ability to switch up moves. Some niche coverage options are ice fang and poison jab. Tera ghost can help deal with dragonite, something that can ignore aqua jet's priority with extreme speed.

The Other Swift Swimmers

I will firstly state that I will not be discussing every mon that gets swift swim, only the ones that do have a genuine place on rain teams, though of course every swift swimmer can work to some degree.

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The next best swift swim option, kingdra is the only viable special swift mon in the tier and is able to do solid damage with its attacks. It can either go with a specs set or a focus energy set. The specs set is more immediately threatening and can afford to fit more coverage into its moveset or flip turn to pivot out of walls. The focus energy set trades the ability for immediate damage in return for very powerful and consistent damage. This way, kingdra doesn't have to worry about draco meteor special drops at all and thus can overwhelm some teams with the sheer power and move flexibility it has.

View attachment 637077
Another amazing swift swim mon, basculegion has immense power with boosted wave crashes and flip turns that can really put on the hurt. Basculegion can also fit on ice fang, which other swift swim mons cannot do usually, to deal with the dragon and grass types that wall other swift swimmers. Basculegion does need to go jolly in order to outspeed booster valiant under rain, so that is definetely an issue for it. You can also use its other ability, adaptability, to deal massive damage to even resists while giving up on speed. Basculegion is a mon that has two very different pathways that can both work well.

View attachment 637082
A rising star on rain teams, Overqwil fills a lot of important holes for rain teams. Overqwil is a poison and dark type, which lends itself nicely for dealing with rillaboom and gambit, two priority users that rain struggles against. It also can absorb toxic spikes, which while not a huge deal since treads is very reliable at keeping them off and the fast pace of rain teams, can still be an issue. Overqwil can hit hard with its stabs+liquidation after an sd boost, which while somewhat unideal, isn't too much of a deal when its dealing massive damage. Waterpon does not like switching into overqwil, which is a big thing. Alternatively, overqwil can drop sd for some other supportive move, though this is not recommended unles the rain team can compensate for the lower power. Spikes, destiny bond and toxic spikes can all provide valuable utility to a team. Overall, overqwil is a really dynamic mon on rain teams that fills a ton of holes.

View attachment 637083
The most niche of the swift swimmers, floatzels main issue is being mostly outclassed by barraskewda. Barra is faster than it and hits a bit less hard, but still hits hard enough. However, for raw power with amazing speed, floatzel has you covered. With rain boosted wave crashes, floatzel hits extremely hard, with even bulky resists taking massive damage (dondozo is 3hit ko'd by tera water wave crash under rain, which is insane). The moves on floatzel are the same as barraskewda, flip turn, aqua jet and cc all provide floatzel moves to click before it will kill itself from the recoil.

The Electrifying Electrics
View attachment 637084
The premier thunder abuser on rain teams, raging bolt provides a lot of utility to rain. It firstly acts as a great waterpon check as its able to wall both stabs and weaken it with thunder or thunderclap, depending on whether the waterpon has clicked sd or not. Secondly, it acts as a dangerous wallbreaker for rain, with the combo of weather ball, thunder and dragon pulse/draco meteor not having many switchins. Raging bolt can also pick either booster which has good power but allows it to switch up its moves, specs to deal absurd damage or AV to take a lot of special hits. Raging bolt is a mostly one note mon but it is an invaluable part of rain teams.

View attachment 637085
Although usually outclassed by raging bolt, zapdos can still find a niche on rain teams. It's main advantages over raging bolt are stab hurricane to deal with tusk and grass types easier, the ability to switch into ground types easily and a higher speed stat meaning it can actually threaten most ground types not named iron treads (who won't do much to it). With the combo of thunder, weather ball and hurricane, zapdos can threaten a lot of the tier. It's last moveslot can be one of roost, volt switch or agility to change up its counterplay quite a bit.

View attachment 637104
The third, and most niche of the main electric abusers, thundurus therian is a really strong mon that has decent coverage in order to hit the grass and ground types that wall its stab thunders. It also packs volt absorb to temporarily stop any raging bolts that try to click electric moves against rain teams, which is usually a big pain for them to deal with. Tera electric thunders can deal absolutely absurd damage to teams that have lost their ground type, making it a devestating wallbreaker. There is also the possibility to use hammer arm to hit blissey for big damage, but just don't. A more utility focused set with u-turn/volt switch and knock off to cripple walls is a decent idea and something the other electric types can't accomplish.

The Scary Steels
View attachment 637086
An almost mandatory slot on rain teams, treads fills the niche of a ground type, raging bolt check, stealth rocker and rapid spinner all into one slot that cannot be replicated be much on rain. With a ground/steel typing, iron treads can be quite defensively sound without a fire weakness and can do solid damage to some things. It's moveslots are also somewhat customisable after the mandatory stealth rocks and rapid spin. You can either go physical with e-quake, iron head or ice spinner, or special with earth power or flash cannon. Knock off can remove items from pesky opponents like ghold, steel beam can do solid damage if invested and allows treads to get off the field quicker and finally volt switch can pivot out of a battle into an abuser. Overall, treads is a really important part of rain teams and at worst should be heavily considered on them.

View attachment 637087
What would an SV anaylsis post be with the supreme leader himself, Kingambit (not Finchinator though sadly, would love to see him on a rain team lol). Kingambit loves the reduced fire damage and detterence of mons that usually counter it in tusk and fast fairy types that rain provides while in return acting as a great wincon and bulky mon that they can fall back on. Kingambit is the go to steel mon that abuses the reduced fire damage rain provides. It can either use the more offensive variant to clean up games easier, or use the bulkier set with a wack tera type like flying or fairy in order to set up easier.

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Tinkaton has found itself being used on all kinds of teams more so lately as a really good disruptive mon. On rain teams it can accomplish a similar role. With pickpocket it can steal opposing mons items to really disrupt their gameplan and with mold breaker it can t-wave on ghold and hatterene and stealth rock on the latter. With knock off and encore, tinkaton can be really disruptive and still do pretty good damage with ice hammer, gigaton hammer or play rough. The reduced fire type attacks means that it can even do this on mons it usually couldn't, such as iron moth. Tinkaton also gives rain a decent answer to bolt with encore to lock it into one of calm mind, thunderclap or dragon pulse.

View attachment 637146
Hisuian Goodra is a mon that has quite the defensive profile for rain teams, with it having great defense and special defense in order to wall lots of the metagame. With rain allowing for goodra to use thunder and boosted hyrdo pumps, it can deal solid damage to any team. With draco meteor as well, it can threaten quite a lot of common mons. It's last moveslot can either go to another coverage move in sludge wave, ice beam or flash cannon, a physical option in e-quake or body press or knock off to provide utility. As stated beforehand, hoodra can wall a lot of threatening mons which includes raging bolt, rillaboom and waterpon which is otherwise difficult to do. Overall, hoodra can provide great firepower and excellent defensive prowress all in one mon.

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Ghold is a mon that does have potential on rain teams, but can sometimes be lacklustre. With boosted thunders, some mons such as gambit or hamurott that might switch into it are taking big damage from thunder (hamurott is ohko'd by thunder). However, it faces stiff competition with other steel types and thunder doesn't hit as hard as it likes due to not having stab on it. There is potentially a rain team structure that could bring out the best of ghold, but that has yet to be implemented.

The Water type Warriors
View attachment 637088
As they say "If you can't beat them, join them". Despite being a major annoyance for rain, they can utilise waterpon themselves to deal pretty great damage. With a set of SD, ivy cudgel, grass stab and play rough, waterpon can deal massive damage. Tera water and rain boosted ivy cudgels can even OHKO bulky resists such as raging bolt. It can also provide utility in encore or knock off if needed while still being threatening if it doesn't sd up. Overall, waterpon can be quite great on a rain team and can deal heavy damage to opposing teams.

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The other water type OU mon that fits well in rain, primarina can be pretty offensively threatening. With calm mind, primarina can boost itself up further in order to sweep. With surf and either moonblast or draining kiss, primarina hits a lot of the tier for big damage, as even usual checks in glowking are overwhelmed. In the last moveslot, primarina can slot any of substitute, flip turn, energy ball or stored power (the last one being a favourite of mine). Prim can also go in a different route with liquid voice psychic noise helping in the stall matchup by making sure blissey and clodsire cannot heal off its damage.

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Azumarill is known to be a hugely threatening mon, but under rain its a different beast. With rain boosting its liquidations and aqua jets, azumarill can pick up kos it usually wouldn't. With belly drum, it can massively boost its attack at the cost of 50% of its health. Frailer resists such as roaring moon can potentially be OHKO'd by a +6 aqua jet under rain, which means most things will falter after some chip. Azumarill can also provide a temporary stopgap to raging bolt, as it is immune to its dragon moves and thus you can pivot into a electric resist/immunity much easier. This of course can be unreliable, so be careful. Overall, azumarill can be a dangerous cleaner on rain teams that can snipe targets it should have no reason to ko.

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The once poster child of rain (besides keldeo), greninja still has a place on these teams. Despite its mediocre 103 special attack, boosted rain moves can still hurt many mons. If greninja picks up a ko, it becomes insanely scary for the opposing team to deal with due to battle bond (protean is nice, but not as good). After that, its hits will be chunking even resisted targets for big damage. Greninja can also utilise water shuriken to get past some priority users in kingambit and raging bolt. It also has amazing coverage, with all of ice beam, grass knot, sludge wave and extrasensory being good moves to choose. Overall, greninja can be slow to get going, but when it does it can be very devestating.

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The OG water type rain abuser, keldeo still finds itself as a valuable mon on rain teams. There are two directions you can go with keldeo, either a specs set that deals pretty amazing damage with priority in vacuum wave and pivoting in flip turn, or a cm set that can snowball out of control. I believe the cm set is better as it helps a lot against stall, something which rain has difficulties dealing with. Unless they have amoonguss or toxapex (which tera steel kinda walls then), they won't really be able to much in return to you. Taunt is an option on these sets so pex or amoon can't toxic you or recover off the damage to try and stall keldeo out. Keldeo also helps against kingambit, resisting both stab moves, so its a nice interim measure against it. Overall, keldeo is still really amazing on rain teams and can help in difficult matchups.

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Despite massively falling off this DLC compared to its potential brokeness in DLC1, manaphy still has a good place on rain teams. Manaphy can go for two different routes to boost itself. The first is the more straight forward, by utilising tail glow to massively boost its special attack, manaphy can use rain boosted surfs to slam even resists for big damage (raging bolt takes 60% min from a surf) and can use coverage moves in ice beam, alluring voice and energy ball in order to hit some bulkier resists. The second option is by using the double dance set, with acid armour and take heart manaphy can boost itself to make itself unkillable on both sides. It can then use rest in order to heal itself immediately and its ability hydration means it wakes up immediately. Despite only having scald as an attacking move, manaphy can be a frightening presence with this set that teams can severly struggle against.

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Quaquaval is definetely more of a niche option, but can be devestating if done well (Magcargo also hates this mon, which is something lmao). With sd and aqua step, quaq can boost its speed while dealing amazing damage with rain boosted aqua step's. Every ko of course makes it even more powerful, so sacking mons (which is sometimes what you have to do to outplay rain) is no longer viable. With its fourth moveslot, it can pick a few moves. Rapid spin provides a speed boost while acting as secondary hazard removal, ice spinner, brave bird and knock off can hit crucial targets for big damage and roost can help quaq in the longevity department. Quaq can be pretty deadly on rain despite mostly being outshined, so it can definetely put in the work.
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Volcanion is a niche option on rain, but can work quite well. Although you can no longer use flamethrower reliably, boosted steam eruptions are absolutely devestating to opposing teams, doing massive damage to even resists. It also helps a lot against waterpon due to being immune to water type moves, resisting play rough and having solid physical bulk to take power whips. With sludge bomb, it can do solid damage to it and make sure its sweep is limited. Overall, not a bad mon on rain, just difficult to fit in with all the other abusers.

The Hurricane Hitters
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I didn't mention this in the water type section since I believe it is a bit too niche to be used consistently, but not too niche to mention in the below section, so here it is. Walking wake is mainly known for being on sun teams, utilising boosted hyrdo steam's along with proto boosted attacks to deal frankly absurd damage. However on rain, despite being more niche, it can still provide some serious firepower. Rain boosted hydro steam's still hit hard on many mons and in rain wake can used 100% accurate hurricanes that can deal with the grass types that wall hyrdo steam. It also helps massively in the sun matchup, abusing their own weather to its own effect in order to deal massive damage to the opposing team. Wake is probably bordering on the niche side of rain abusers, but it can work well.

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Dragonite has established itself as a good rain mon with it having both thunder and hurricane, which only zapdos has besides some very bad mons (sorry kilowattrel fans). The defensive profile of dragonite is very good for dealing with waterpon, a nightmare matchup for rain as most know, while not lacking offensively. You can either go with a fully special set, using moves like draco meteor, hydro pump, hurricane and thunder to suprise teams that expect a physical dragonite, or a mixed set with some of the above moves but also including coverage like low kick, e-quake and the obviouse e-speed to hit teams on their frailer side always. There is also the agility set that can clean teams up really easily late game by outspeeding most things in the meta. Dragonite is a really dynamic mon on rain teams that can provide a lot to the table.

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(Mf looking very cursed today) Tornadus therian is the secondary hurricane abuser on rain teams, utilising some of the most powerful hurricanes in the game and amazing speed to decimate unprepared teams. With nasty plot, torn-t can reach quite high power levels and has great coverage to back it up. All of weather ball, grass knot, sludge bomb, dark pulse, focus blast and psychic are valid coverage options to hit mons that resist your stab move. It can also slot in utility options such as taunt, knock off and u-turn to annoy teams further. Finally, with regenerator, torn-t can be suprisingly bulky and does not mind taking chip damage too much.

The Niche Names
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Now, it may seem weird for me to put basculegion female on this list due to the fact that not only is it a swift swim mon, but it's male counterpart is in the swift swimmer category. However, that last part is what kills its viability, why use a ghost/water type swift swimmer when the male version is much better at it. Well, the main thing is hitting on the special side, which is nice, but isn't enough. However, there could be some team that lets basc-f thrive, so I thought mentioning it here was a good idea.

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Crawdaunt used to be a staple on rain teams due to having strong adaptability boosted crabhammers and aqua jets that absoluely decimated teams. However, in SV where everything can get adaptability boosted moves by using tera, crawdaunt has fallen off combined with its low speed and fraility sometimes being too much of a hinderance. Furthermore, the large amount of priority in the tier means sometimes even aqua jet isn't enough to alleviate its speed issue. However, crawdaunt is still by far one of the scariest attackers in rain if it gets an attack off, with either sd or tera water making it do mind boggling damage numbers (like crabhammer in rain at +2 with tera water doing min 75% to multiscale dragonite, which is absurd).

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Wugtrio is a bad mon. I'm not even going to sugarcoat it. But Delibird Heart used it to win a OU room tour, so it's worth a mention. In his own words "the team would be a gajillion times better if you simply replaced wug with like rbolt or keldeo or any other rain abuser lol".

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Bellibolt despite being one of the best mons ever, sadly isn't really good in SV OU. However, spook used it in his Bellibolt Rain Team to get 2nd on the ladder, which is an impressive feat. With a mono electric typing, bellibolt is much better as an AV user, with it having less weaknesses then the other bolt. Bellibolt's ability, Electromorphosis, allows bellibolt to power up its next electric type move to absurd levels after getting hit. With tera blast fairy and weather ball, bellibolt can deal super effective damage to a lot of threats while being a good defensive mon.

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(Assume this is the aqua form, I couldn't find the pmd sprite for it) Tauros aqua is a mon that not only can abuse rain, but can also be a good check to a few threats to rain. Primarily, it is a great check to kingambit as it resists both stab moves and can fire back with a powerful CC. Boosted wave crashes can also put the hurt on targets that think its going to be more defensive. It can also use two different abilities to increase its survivability. Intimidate is the better of the two, making tauros much bulkier on the physical side, while cud chew is more niche but with sitrus berry can be a nice option to recover 50% hp, acting as a pseudo recovery move.

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Ludicolo was once the pinnacle of swift swim abusers, but has since fallen out of favour as better abusers have been introduced. However, ludicolo can find a niche on rain teams by using its second ability, rain dish, and using a more defensive ev spread in order to survive a myriad of hits. With leech seed and encore, ludicolo can sometimes just shut down entire mons, walking wake being chief among them as it can survive two draco meteors and get a leech seed off. Other mons such as kingambit will be encored and leech seeded until they switch out, giving the team breathing room. I haven't used this mon in a while, but I am confident it is still good in this meta.

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Although mostly outclassed by treads on rain teams, tusk can still act as a ground type that can control the hazard game on both sides of the field. It is more offensively threatening than treads could ever hope to be, with headlong rushes higher bp and tusk's higher defense stat meaning it can take more hits. However, treads is most of the time a better option due to its higher speed and volt switch, but tusk deserves a mention.

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Finally, I'm going to list a mon that I have been experimenting with a lot that has had a decent amount of success from my testing. Jolteon is the fastest non boosted thunder user in the game, and it also is completely immune to electric moves, which helps against one of the more difficult matchups for rain in raging bolt. With tera fairy, jolteon can actually sit on raging bolt for days, forcing it out and making sure it doesn't want to come in. With calm mind, thunder, alluring voice and weather ball, jolteon can be suprisingly threatening to a large variety of mons as not much can outspeed it. Overall, a mon that I think has great potential on rain teams due to its unique traits.

Conclusion
As can be seen above, rain has a lot of variety in its team options and can quite varied in its mons that abuse it. I feel like with a bit of boundary testing, rain can thrive in this meta, or at the very least be a great playstyle. Is there any I missed? Do you think there is an obvious mon I missed? (like golduck lmao)

Also thank you to everybody on the TrainerAid Discord for helping me out with some of these mons, some of which I didn't even consider in the first draft of this.

And thank you to anybody how read this. I know that this is a lot to read, and most may skip over, but if you read even half of this than I hope you have learnt something about pokemon's wettest archetype.
Moltres also good hurricane user, ground immune, can help with contact moves, good resists, punishes spin, great mon on rain

EDIT: we should put a "no kingambit/gholdengo/great tusk is secretly way too unhealthy" posts rule on this thread
 
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Moltres also good hurricane user, ground immune, can help with contact moves, good resists, punishes spin, great mon on rain

EDIT: we should put a "no kingambit/gholdengo/great tusk is secretly way too unhealthy" posts rule on this thread
Bro really put Great Tusk with them. How long has it been since anyone has complained about Great Tusk? Last I remember was pre Home where it had like close to or over 50% usage rate.
 
Apparently the concept of unhealthy is no longer applied as it should, Mega-Sableye in ORAS suffered 2 suspects and 1 ban for much less.
Gholdengo has both excellent offensive and defensive stats, an excellent typing, a restrictive and limiting ability, making Taunt, Trick, Defog and even Skill Swap ineffective. And a moveset with wide coverage with the help of Nasty Plot, solid recovery, and utilities like Trick and Thunder Wave for speed control. But if the Pokémon is very versatile, it seems more practical to say that it suffers from 4MSS and cannot do everything at once, because to be broken it needs to check all the few answers in the same set, neutralize the 2 or 3 defensive cores that obviously your opponent has space to bring and even prepare his breakfast and iron his clothes. (He does this on his surfboard.)
In addition to being unhealthy, we have things that, due to this nefarious and apparently untouchable mechanics, are beyond the control of skill and go beyond the scope of gresswork. Hello Kingambit.
I could still say how Kyurem and Waterpon are oppressive and how Zamazenta looks like a 4MSS when in fact the best choice most of the time is simply ID + BP, Roar was enough of an innovation to show how out of the curve this dog is.

But don't waste your time replying to me, I won't be able to understand the explanations. I'm a casual player who doesn't reach the top of the ladder and doesn't participate in tournaments (even though some participants in group tournaments end up with a negative score or reach the final stages just by being carried by their teammates, no, it wasn't an attack personal to no one, this has been happening forever.), your "ha ha'' reaction is enough for me to know that we don't share the same opinion and that's ok. Because at the end of the day the community is divided or playing tricks on the concept basic rock-paper-scissors with a repulsive mechanic that encourages guesswork over skill, which was obviously designed for doubles, but we won't touch on it in singles.

TL;DR This metagame is the epitome of shit, no matter what philosophical scope you wanted to put on it.
Gholdengo is unhealthy shit and Terastal makes revenge killing unfeasible in addition to rewarding guesswork.
My biggest problem with Mega Sableye analogy is the limited weaknesses of Dark/Ghost. They literally made Fairy type in part because that typing was so overpowered. As good a typing as Steel/Ghost is, it has 4 weaknesses and 3 in particular that are extremely common. The defensive profile is just too different. I'm with you on the Tera opinion, but for Ghold specifically that would stop it from spinblocking.

Other than this, I don't think you should put yourself down like that. You seem like a pretty good player from what I can tell.
 
Citation needed on Dark Ghost being a reason for fairy. As far as I'm aware, neither Sableye nor Spiritomb were an issue before gen 6. It seemed more like a direct balancing decision after seeing the dominance of dragons, and to a lesser extent, fighting types in the BW era.
It seemed more like it was about the dominance of dragons? Citation needed? For real, though. If it was just about Dragons, and I guess apparently Fighting types, then why have it also be good against Dark types?

Anyways, I found this:

"The Fairy type was introduced in Generation VI to balance the Dragon and Dark types. It is super-effective against both types and also resisted most types that were introduced in the past Generation (mostly Bug, Fighting, and Dark types). Another reason why the Fairy type was introduced was to give offensive advantages to the Steel and Poison types. Prior to Generation VI, the Dark/Ghost-type Sableye and Spiritomb had no weaknesses, so the Fairy type was added to give them a weakness."

https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Fai... type was introduced,Fighting, and Dark types).

Don't @ me for the Wiki source. This isn't some official paper and it matches my memory of discussions that were made at the time.
 
It seemed more like it was about the dominance of dragons? Citation needed? For real, though. If it was just about Dragons, and I guess apparently Fighting types, then why have it also be good against Dark types?

Anyways, I found this:

"The Fairy type was introduced in Generation VI to balance the Dragon and Dark types. It is super-effective against both types and also resisted most types that were introduced in the past Generation (mostly Bug, Fighting, and Dark types). Another reason why the Fairy type was introduced was to give offensive advantages to the Steel and Poison types. Prior to Generation VI, the Dark/Ghost-type Sableye and Spiritomb had no weaknesses, so the Fairy type was added to give them a weakness."

https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Fairy_type#:~:text=The Fairy type was introduced,Fighting, and Dark types).

Don't @ me for the Wiki source. This isn't some official paper and it matches my memory of discussions that were made at the time.
I believe with the removal of Steel's resistance to Dark, Fairy was given a resistance to it to keep Dark from spiraling out of control and only having two resistances. I can't claim this for fact, but I know that Dark never ravaged a tier as badly as Dragon and Fighting did (Tyranitar was like, the only good Dark Type in OU for the longest time).

Aside from that, has anyone tried experimenting with 248 / 8 / 252 (Spe) Jolly Tusk? You get a good chunk of bulk and max out your Speed, but with 8 in Attack or Defense, you get a Proto boost to that stat instead of Speed.
 
I believe with the removal of Steel's resistance to Dark, Fairy was given a resistance to it to keep Dark from spiraling out of control and only having two resistances. I can't claim this for fact, but I know that Dark never ravaged a tier as badly as Dragon and Fighting did (Tyranitar was like, the only good Dark Type in OU for the longest time).

Aside from that, has anyone tried experimenting with 248 / 8 / 252 (Spe) Jolly Tusk? You get a good chunk of bulk and max out your Speed, but with 8 in Attack or Defense, you get a Proto boost to that stat instead of Speed.
i doubt sableye and spiritomb factored into the designing of the fairy type much considering that eelektross also effectively has no weaknesses and they seem just fine with that. i'll have to ask shigeki morimoto the next time i see him
 
I believe with the removal of Steel's resistance to Dark, Fairy was given a resistance to it to keep Dark from spiraling out of control and only having two resistances. I can't claim this for fact, but I know that Dark never ravaged a tier as badly as Dragon and Fighting did (Tyranitar was like, the only good Dark Type in OU for the longest time).
Well, I did just claim what I said as a fact. I guess people will believe what they want to believe citation or not. It's just semantics in the end anyways. The point was Ghold gets hit for far more supereffectively than Sableyeye, which is what makes it different.

i doubt sableye and spiritomb factored into the designing of the fairy type much considering that eelektross also effectively has no weaknesses and they seem just fine with that. i'll have to ask shigeki morimoto the next time i see him
The difference is this is due to an ability rather than a typing combination. A new typing wouldn't balance out anything besides other typings and combinations of typings. We do already have stuff like Gravity, Mold Breaker, and more recently Neutralizing Gas to counter Eelektross if we really needed to.

There is also Tera in gen 9 where any mon with Levitate can turn Electric or even Poison, and while I don't believe Tera is implemented in the most balanced way, we haven't seen any Levitate mons be too problematic in that way since they can just be hit hard neutrally. This is apples to oranges.
 
We do already have stuff like Gravity, Mold Breaker, and more recently Neutralizing Gas to counter Eelektross if we really needed to.
yeah, and we had stuff that could hit sableye and spiritomb supereffectively before fairy came into existence too. foresight, odor sleuth, and scrappy were all things before the fairy type was, and they could all remove or bypass dark/ghost's fighting immunity. and don't hit me with "but no one used foresight" because no one in singles uses gravity either. we can go round and round about edge cases all day long and it still doesn't make your proposition that fairy was introduced because of dark/ghost any less ridiculous
 
yeah, and we had stuff that could hit sableye and spiritomb supereffectively before fairy came into existence too. foresight, odor sleuth, and scrappy were all things before the fairy type was, and they could all remove or bypass dark/ghost's fighting immunity. and don't hit me with "but no one used foresight" because no one in singles uses gravity either. we can go round and round about edge cases all day long and it still doesn't make your proposition that fairy was introduced because of dark/ghost any less ridiculous
Technically in Gen 4 UU, both donphan and hitmontop used foresight in order to rapid spin on the prevalent ghost types of the tier (I think Donphan also used it in Gen 3, though I am less sure about that).
This of course is the most fringe cases ever, so the point still stands. Sableye and Spiritomb were at best, mediocre picks in OU or Doubles. The fairy type was not introduced to counter them, and saying they were is a bit silly.
 
yeah, and we had stuff that could hit sableye and spiritomb supereffectively before fairy came into existence too. foresight, odor sleuth, and scrappy were all things before the fairy type was, and they could all remove or bypass dark/ghost's fighting immunity. and don't hit me with "but no one used foresight" because no one in singles uses gravity either. we can go round and round about edge cases all day long and it still doesn't make your proposition that fairy was introduced because of dark/ghost any less ridiculous
First of all, I said it was in part. I even listed a source. So believe it or not, I don't care, but it didn't just come from nowhere. It was definitely a factor.

Second, I just got through explaining the difference between addressing a typing and an ability. Fairy typing being a typing is important for balancing other typings. Get it? Balancing abilities is a whole different story. Again, you wouldn't introduce a new typing to do that.

Something like Scrappy would not then allow you to hit Mega Sableye without worrying about Will-O-Wisp, which would be a problem because most Fighting moves are physical especially at that time. Normal type moves would only let you hit it neutrally, not super effectively, which was the entire point of the discussion.

As for the preemptive no one used Foresight line, I might as well address it since you brought it up. That and Odor Sleuth are hard to use since they take a tempo for a very situational thing. By then you are burned by Sableye anyways. An ability like Scrappy is better because it just happens passively. You don't lose a tempo and a move slot only to maybe have to set it up against later anyways. This is also why nobody used Gravity, but at least I have seen that in actual games on the very, very rare niche teams in this gen.

This of course is the most fringe cases ever, so the point still stands. Sableye and Spiritomb were at best, mediocre picks in OU or Doubles. The fairy type was not introduced to counter them, and saying they were is a bit silly.
Then I guess the entire page on Fairy type I gave a link for is silly. I don't really know what to tell you guys. Believe what you want I guess. Maybe go edit the Wiki page while you are at it.
 

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