Well, we've come a long way since people overlooked Big Nacl at the start of the gen as average/mediocre and the irony of tera freeing up options in the teambuilder specifically to allow potential counterplay against threats like Garganacl. I'm fully inclined to agree with your logic of reasoning here because while it's not the most high profile or centralizing mon, it is a lot more detrimental than given credit for and I think that really speaks volumes about how wild shit like Finding Nemo and Angry Monke are in this meta. All in all, I'm curious if Garg would be the first suspect going forward after quick ban over Chien Pao because I think between the two of them Garganacl is more worth looking at.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Well, we've come a long way since people overlooked Big Nacl at the start of the gen as average/mediocre and the irony of tera freeing up options in the teambuilder specifically to allow potential counterplay against threats like Garganacl. I'm fully inclined to agree with your logic of reasoning here because while it's not the most high profile or centralizing mon, it is a lot more detrimental than given credit for and I think that really speaks volumes about how wild shit like Finding Nemo and Angry Monke are in this meta. All in all, I'm curious if Garg would be the first suspect going forward after quick ban over Chien Pao because I think between the two of them Garganacl is more worth looking at.
New radar, new post after Tera suspect (thank god it stayed)
Quickban
Nemo has been found, and after following the trail of scorched bodies, I believe that Chi-Yu deserves a ban. It’s far too strong, has a decent speed tier, and a pretty good typing. Tera giving it a power boost or Grass/Fighting coverage also allows it to blow up potential answers such as Azumarill or Tyranitar. In a world where the best Fairy type in the tier is Skeledirge, I don’t think Chi-Yu has any redeeming qualities.
Suspect
Annihilape is an… interesting pokemon. At base form at the beginning of a game, it’s kinda mid to be honest. 50 base power for Rage Fist is almost nothing, and it wants to run both bulk and speed. However, some split HP and Speed EVs and one or two hits onto Rage Fist mean that Annihilape can chew through entire teams, depending on its Tera type. However, it certainly still has checks. Tera Garganacl, Dragapult (offensively) and a few others can take it on somewhat decently. However, Taunt+Bulk Up is an easy kill or two if played correctly, and with the right Tera can just end games.
Quickban
We know what it does, we know what move it has, but here’s the month-old question: Cyclizar or Shed Tail? I think that the easy answer to this one would be Cyclizar. Orthworm has yet to prove itself as strong as Cyclizar, as it lacks recovery, speed, and the utility movepool that Cyclizar sports. Shed Tail also enables so many extremely strong sweepers by potentially giving them free setup turns, especially the case for Dragonite who can now have a Sub and Multiscale active at the same time, allowing for extreme setup with Dragon Dance, or Espathra getting free speed boosts and at least one or two calm minds. Cyclizar’s Regenerator allows for it to heal and get even more Shed Tails for just clicking U-turn.
No Action
Garganacl is an amazing pokemon, with Salt Cure and Purifying Salt being two of the best abilities in the game, but it has some glaring flaws. Substitute as a move and Covert Cloak as an item kind of counter its whole thing, along with it almost requiring Tera to be at the level that it is right now, which removes flexibility. Sub and Covert Cloak aren’t even bad, as avoiding Def or SpD drops along with status from moves like Discharge can be huge, along with Sub being free setup sometimes. Garg is good, and it can be annoying, but it’s counterplay is both viable and easy to slot onto teams.
No Action
Gholdengo is an amazing glue mon, and in my opinion is up there with Tusk as the best pokemon in the tier, but it’s far from banworthy. Note that I said best, not strongest. Chi-Yu is the strongest, but harder to fit on teams than Gholdengo is. Since it can fit on so many teams, fogging with Corv is harder than ever. However, I don’t think that this is argument for a ban, since Tusk and Treads provide good, consistent hazard removal and also threaten Gholdengo with Ground STAB and Knock Off. I certainly think Good as Gold is an amazing ability as well, but it gets way oversold sometimes. It only blocks status moves that directly affect or target you, which is a shorter list than you think. On top of that, it’s stats other than special attack are pretty good, but nothing special. All in all, Gholdengo is certainly good but also certainly not broken.
No Action
Without Shed Tail providing free setup, Espathra can feel quite mid most of the time. Speed Boost, Calm Mind, and Stored Power make for a terrifying combo, but it just isn’t everything. Espathra wants to run 6 moves at once as well, with all of Calm Mind, Stored Power, Dgleam, Roost, Tera Blast, and Protect competing for moveslots. On top of that, it heavily relies on Tera to work. Perhaps too heavily, at that. Eating two team slots and your Tera to try to make it work just feels not worth it most of the time. I wouldn’t be sad to see it go, but I can’t see it having a good time trying to set up in a meta without Cyclizar.
No Action
The only non gen 9 mon to make an appearance on the radar, Dragonite is an interesting one. Dkiller is an amazing set, but also is very much enabled by Shed Tail and also eats your Tera most games. It also has a good amount of pokemon that can consistently wall it forever. It’s setup fodder for Dondozo, struggles to Skeledirge and Garganacl, has a hard time setting up without Shed Tail, and can whiff a Tera against Gholdengo if its Tera Normal.
Suspect
The other very strong ruin quartet member running around OU, Chien-Pao is No Chi-Yu, but it’s certainly strong af. Theoretically, it’s only walled by physically defensive Dondozo and Skeledirge, which are just one crunch defense drop away from being KOd. Garganacl is another decent check, but it can drop to a well-timed Sacred Sword or Ice Spinner. Really, though, it has more checks than everything else here. Quaquaval, Paldean Tauros, well-predicting Dragapult and Dragonite, Dondozo, and Garganacl have a chance against it. Honestly, I’m quite split on this one as well, but it could go either way after Chi-Yu goes and we approach the HOME meta.
Final thoughts:
Pokemon Home isn’t going to be the game changer everyone thinks its going to be. The Genies certainly will shake things up, and Regieleki will for sure be good, along with Volcanion, but I don’t see anything that isn’t normally broken (outside of maybe Shifu) being broken. Shifu is certainly more of an SD/Punching Glove thing than a Tera thing, though. Darkshifu is even more broken now due to a lack of fairies. Regieleki looks like another dedicated Tera pokemon, which I always hate, but it’s a 50/50 on whether it will be broken or not. Giving up your Tera is a huge deal, especially since it’s only one use.
I’m not certain a second Tera suspect would be the right way to go for now. Tera has been proving itself more than balanced, and unless the DLC or Home suddenly have some random pokemon that is broken with Tera but fine without or if the community as a whole has an opinion shift, I think Tera is fine right now as it is.
QuickbanNemo has been found, and after following the trail of scorched bodies, I believe that Chi-Yu deserves a ban. It’s far too strong, has a decent speed tier, and a pretty good typing. Tera giving it a power boost or Grass/Fighting coverage also allows it to blow up potential answers such as Azumarill or Tyranitar. In a world where the best Fairy type in the tier is Skeledirge, I don’t think Chi-Yu has any redeeming qualities.
SuspectAnnihilape is an… interesting pokemon. At base form at the beginning of a game, it’s kinda mid to be honest. 50 base power for Rage Fist is almost nothing, and it wants to run both bulk and speed. However, some split HP and Speed EVs and one or two hits onto Rage Fist mean that Annihilape can chew through entire teams, depending on its Tera type. However, it certainly still has checks. Tera Garganacl, Dragapult (offensively) and a few others can take it on somewhat decently. However, Taunt+Bulk Up is an easy kill or two if played correctly, and with the right Tera can just end games.
QuickbanWe know what it does, we know what move it has, but here’s the month-old question: Cyclizar or Shed Tail? I think that the easy answer to this one would be Cyclizar. Orthworm has yet to prove itself as strong as Cyclizar, as it lacks recovery, speed, and the utility movepool that Cyclizar sports. Shed Tail also enables so many extremely strong sweepers by potentially giving them free setup turns, especially the case for Dragonite who can now have a Sub and Multiscale active at the same time, allowing for extreme setup with Dragon Dance, or Espathra getting free speed boosts and at least one or two calm minds. Cyclizar’s Regenerator allows for it to heal and get even more Shed Tails for just clicking U-turn.
No ActionGarganacl is an amazing pokemon, with Salt Cure and Purifying Salt being two of the best abilities in the game, but it has some glaring flaws. Substitute as a move and Covert Cloak as an item kind of counter its whole thing, along with it almost requiring Tera to be at the level that it is right now, which removes flexibility. Sub and Covert Cloak aren’t even bad, as avoiding Def or SpD drops along with status from moves like Discharge can be huge, along with Sub being free setup sometimes. Garg is good, and it can be annoying, but it’s counterplay is both viable and easy to slot onto teams.
No ActionGholdengo is an amazing glue mon, and in my opinion is up there with Tusk as the best pokemon in the tier, but it’s far from banworthy. Note that I said best, not strongest. Chi-Yu is the strongest, but harder to fit on teams than Gholdengo is. Since it can fit on so many teams, fogging with Corv is harder than ever. However, I don’t think that this is argument for a ban, since Tusk and Treads provide good, consistent hazard removal and also threaten Gholdengo with Ground STAB and Knock Off. I certainly think Good as Gold is an amazing ability as well, but it gets way oversold sometimes. It only blocks status moves that directly affect or target you, which is a shorter list than you think. On top of that, it’s stats other than special attack are pretty good, but nothing special. All in all, Gholdengo is certainly good but also certainly not broken.
No ActionWithout Shed Tail providing free setup, Espathra can feel quite mid most of the time. Speed Boost, Calm Mind, and Stored Power make for a terrifying combo, but it just isn’t everything. Espathra wants to run 6 moves at once as well, with all of Calm Mind, Stored Power, Dgleam, Roost, Tera Blast, and Protect competing for moveslots. On top of that, it heavily relies on Tera to work. Perhaps too heavily, at that. Eating two team slots and your Tera to try to make it work just feels not worth it most of the time. I wouldn’t be sad to see it go, but I can’t see it having a good time trying to set up in a meta without Cyclizar.
No ActionThe only non gen 9 mon to make an appearance on the radar, Dragonite is an interesting one. Dkiller is an amazing set, but also is very much enabled by Shed Tail and also eats your Tera most games. It also has a good amount of pokemon that can consistently wall it forever. It’s setup fodder for Dondozo, struggles to Skeledirge and Garganacl, has a hard time setting up without Shed Tail, and can whiff a Tera against Gholdengo if its Tera Normal.
SuspectThe other very strong ruin quartet member running around OU, Chien-Pao is No Chi-Yu, but it’s certainly strong af. Theoretically, it’s only walled by physically defensive Dondozo and Skeledirge, which are just one crunch defense drop away from being KOd. Garganacl is another decent check, but it can drop to a well-timed Sacred Sword or Ice Spinner. Really, though, it has more checks than everything else here. Quaquaval, Paldean Tauros, well-predicting Dragapult and Dragonite, Dondozo, and Garganacl have a chance against it. Honestly, I’m quite split on this one as well, but it could go either way after Chi-Yu goes and we approach the HOME meta.
Final thoughts:
Pokemon Home isn’t going to be the game changer everyone thinks its going to be. The Genies certainly will shake things up, and Regieleki will for sure be good, along with Volcanion, but I don’t see anything that isn’t normally broken (outside of maybe Shifu) being broken. Shifu is certainly more of an SD/Punching Glove thing than a Tera thing, though. Darkshifu is even more broken now due to a lack of fairies. Regieleki looks like another dedicated Tera pokemon, which I always hate, but it’s a 50/50 on whether it will be broken or not. Giving up your Tera is a huge deal, especially since it’s only one use.
I’m not certain a second Tera suspect would be the right way to go for now. Tera has been proving itself more than balanced, and unless the DLC or Home suddenly have some random pokemon that is broken with Tera but fine without or if the community as a whole has an opinion shift, I think Tera is fine right now as it is.
we should gate keep everything on smogon, including meta threads. no longer should filthy casuals have an opinion on MY generation 9 overused metagame. in fact, you shouldn't even be able to view them. we must gate keep expert opinions such as "espathra is a fair and balanced pokemon," as to avoid espathra appearing on the ladder more. we cannot and i repeat we cannot let the filthy pokemon CASUALS get a hold of garganacl on ladder because finchinator said he is broken.
Dont want to make tooooo long of a post so just thought id drop some quick thoughts so see who relatively agrees.
I think quickban goes to Chiyu, Cyclizer, and Annihilape.
Lack of Ape and Cyclizer delivers a great blow to screens teams and I think that alone will weaken the need for any action on Espathra and Dnite. Both can obviously still cheese wins but without shed tail the difficulty in managing them lowers drastically. Hell espathra might straight up die without cyclizer to both keep off dangerous hazards such as tspikes + shed tailing for espathra.
Rest is also just speculation but I feel as if the loss of screens' overbearing power and also mr unwillable fish himself, balance teams will feel a lot more comfortable and usable now, and they could be open to running covert cloak mons more for stuff like garganacl. Pex, amoong, dengo, corv, a few of these stand out as examples for such.
Chien Pao and Gholdengo remain to be seen, I can imagine gholdengo being increasingly more frustrating without chiyu around, and Chien paos strength in general is questionable. Future suspects?
TLDR:
QB Chiyu, Ape, Cyclizer
No action espathra, dnite, garganacl
Future suspects: Dengo (questionable), Chien Pao
I think quickban goes to Chiyu, Cyclizer, and Annihilape.
Lack of Ape and Cyclizer delivers a great blow to screens teams and I think that alone will weaken the need for any action on Espathra and Dnite. Both can obviously still cheese wins but without shed tail the difficulty in managing them lowers drastically. Hell espathra might straight up die without cyclizer to both keep off dangerous hazards such as tspikes + shed tailing for espathra.
Rest is also just speculation but I feel as if the loss of screens' overbearing power and also mr unwillable fish himself, balance teams will feel a lot more comfortable and usable now, and they could be open to running covert cloak mons more for stuff like garganacl. Pex, amoong, dengo, corv, a few of these stand out as examples for such.
Chien Pao and Gholdengo remain to be seen, I can imagine gholdengo being increasingly more frustrating without chiyu around, and Chien paos strength in general is questionable. Future suspects?
TLDR:
QB Chiyu, Ape, Cyclizer
No action espathra, dnite, garganacl
Future suspects: Dengo (questionable), Chien Pao
New radar, new post after Tera suspect (thank god it stayed)
Nemo has been found, and after following the trail of scorched bodies, I believe that Chi-Yu deserves a ban. It’s far too strong, has a decent speed tier, and a pretty good typing. Tera giving it a power boost or Grass/Fighting coverage also allows it to blow up potential answers such as Azumarill or Tyranitar. In a world where the best Fairy type in the tier is Skeledirge, I don’t think Chi-Yu has any redeeming qualities.
Annihilape is an… interesting pokemon. At base form at the beginning of a game, it’s kinda mid to be honest. 50 base power for Rage Fist is almost nothing, and it wants to run both bulk and speed. However, some split HP and Speed EVs and one or two hits onto Rage Fist mean that Annihilape can chew through entire teams, depending on its Tera type. However, it certainly still has checks. Tera Garganacl, Dragapult (offensively) and a few others can take it on somewhat decently. However, Taunt+Bulk Up is an easy kill or two if played correctly, and with the right Tera can just end games.
We know what it does, we know what move it has, but here’s the month-old question: Cyclizar or Shed Tail? I think that the easy answer to this one would be Cyclizar. Orthworm has yet to prove itself as strong as Cyclizar, as it lacks recovery, speed, and the utility movepool that Cyclizar sports. Shed Tail also enables so many extremely strong sweepers by potentially giving them free setup turns, especially the case for Dragonite who can now have a Sub and Multiscale active at the same time, allowing for extreme setup with Dragon Dance, or Espathra getting free speed boosts and at least one or two calm minds. Cyclizar’s Regenerator allows for it to heal and get even more Shed Tails for just clicking U-turn.
Garganacl is an amazing pokemon, with Salt Cure and Purifying Salt being two of the best abilities in the game, but it has some glaring flaws. Substitute as a move and Covert Cloak as an item kind of counter its whole thing, along with it almost requiring Tera to be at the level that it is right now, which removes flexibility. Sub and Covert Cloak aren’t even bad, as avoiding Def or SpD drops along with status from moves like Discharge can be huge, along with Sub being free setup sometimes. Garg is good, and it can be annoying, but it’s counterplay is both viable and easy to slot onto teams.
Gholdengo is an amazing glue mon, and in my opinion is up there with Tusk as the best pokemon in the tier, but it’s far from banworthy. Note that I said best, not strongest. Chi-Yu is the strongest, but harder to fit on teams than Gholdengo is. Since it can fit on so many teams, fogging with Corv is harder than ever. However, I don’t think that this is argument for a ban, since Tusk and Treads provide good, consistent hazard removal and also threaten Gholdengo with Ground STAB and Knock Off. I certainly think Good as Gold is an amazing ability as well, but it gets way oversold sometimes. It only blocks status moves that directly affect or target you, which is a shorter list than you think. On top of that, it’s stats other than special attack are pretty good, but nothing special. All in all, Gholdengo is certainly good but also certainly not broken.
Without Shed Tail providing free setup, Espathra can feel quite mid most of the time. Speed Boost, Calm Mind, and Stored Power make for a terrifying combo, but it just isn’t everything. Espathra wants to run 6 moves at once as well, with all of Calm Mind, Stored Power, Dgleam, Roost, Tera Blast, and Protect competing for moveslots. On top of that, it heavily relies on Tera to work. Perhaps too heavily, at that. Eating two team slots and your Tera to try to make it work just feels not worth it most of the time. I wouldn’t be sad to see it go, but I can’t see it having a good time trying to set up in a meta without Cyclizar.
The only non gen 9 mon to make an appearance on the radar, Dragonite is an interesting one. Dkiller is an amazing set, but also is very much enabled by Shed Tail and also eats your Tera most games. It also has a good amount of pokemon that can consistently wall it forever. It’s setup fodder for Dondozo, struggles to Skeledirge and Garganacl, has a hard time setting up without Shed Tail, and can whiff a Tera against Gholdengo if its Tera Normal.
The other very strong ruin quartet member running around OU, Chien-Pao is No Chi-Yu, but it’s certainly strong af. Theoretically, it’s only walled by physically defensive Dondozo and Skeledirge, which are just one crunch defense drop away from being KOd. Garganacl is another decent check, but it can drop to a well-timed Sacred Sword or Ice Spinner. Really, though, it has more checks than everything else here. Quaquaval, Paldean Tauros, well-predicting Dragapult and Dragonite, Dondozo, and Garganacl have a chance against it. Honestly, I’m quite split on this one as well, but it could go either way after Chi-Yu goes and we approach the HOME meta.
Final thoughts:
Pokemon Home isn’t going to be the game changer everyone thinks its going to be. The Genies certainly will shake things up, and Regieleki will for sure be good, along with Volcanion, but I don’t see anything that isn’t normally broken (outside of maybe Shifu) being broken. Shifu is certainly more of an SD/Punching Glove thing than a Tera thing, though. Darkshifu is even more broken now due to a lack of fairies. Regieleki looks like another dedicated Tera pokemon, which I always hate, but it’s a 50/50 on whether it will be broken or not. Giving up your Tera is a huge deal, especially since it’s only one use.
I’m not certain a second Tera suspect would be the right way to go for now. Tera has been proving itself more than balanced, and unless the DLC or Home suddenly have some random pokemon that is broken with Tera but fine without or if the community as a whole has an opinion shift, I think Tera is fine right now as it is.
Mostly agree with everything except 1 thing...
Regieleki is 100% getting banned once it arrives. Tera Ice/Grass regieleki is 100% sure killing everything in its way. Its gonna be Iron Bundle 2.0
Opinions on the radar/QB/suspects:
Obvious:
QuickbanNot so obvious but imo reasonable, and should be fine:
Quickban Shed Tail, crazy speed, regenerator, good movepool (spin, knock off...)and even decent bulk and typing. Quickban The fact that eviolite primeape is very likely gonna be VERY viable once this is banned kinda tells it all. Quickban After the discovery of the Adamant CB sets, its just too much to handle and they can add some extra power/turns with tera, can suprise with SD sets and break havoc unless u have very strong priority.These 3 are at least 100% Suspect worthy, imo if quickbanned not many would complain.
Lesser offenders:
Maybe supect While covert cloak almost totally shuts down its biggest problem (Salt Cure) do we want this in the tier? Bc to be honest nobody is running covert cloak to avoid sp def drops... Maybe for other effects might have some utility but still... No Action Very useful, and can be annoying but not worth even suspecting. No Action Very powerful BUT a bit hard to get going as it needs to meet some match up conditions and heavily relies on Tera.Lost:
No Action He lost himself into the radar lol, after Cyclizar ban its gonna be fine, DD sets heavily rely on Shed Tail to get enough power and CB sets are annoying but nothing new.
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I know it’s not our place to theorymon too much but I definitely think you’re underplaying the sheer power coming back in home.
Arcanine and basculegion are dropping 300 base power attacks, The horses are back and this time Spectier has coverage, Cress might be the best defensive Tera ever. Mew could literally become anything. It’s literally like 25 OU viable mons dropping at once.
wait, what 300-power attack does hisuian arcanine get? last i checked it doesn't even have head smash and that would have been the only thing putting it above zu
Was the last time you checked January of last year? It's well known that it has Rock Head Head Smash + Flare Blitz in SV.
It does, in fact, have Rock Head + Head Smash.
does it? the dex needs updating, then. why are all the learnsets messed up still?
as far as I’m away none of it is treated as confirmed until home actually drops, since gamefreak has a habit of changing things between updates.
So fun fact actually, a private OU forum was something we did during Gen 6 (I think it was called "Victory Road") and it failed horribly. It might sound like a good idea on paper but all it did was segregate the community and from an outside perspective it just straight up looked like elitist gate keeping. TO BE FAIR, this was during a time where we didn't have extremely active moderators like Finch, and for whatever reason there was a massive influx of trolls and brand new users that loved to bait people into arguments. The "reqs" to get access to the forum also weren't even that bad iirc you pretty much just have to prove you actually played some point recently, but it still set a bad precedent and it actually ended up lowering overall forum activity. It was pretty much just the same small group of people talking in the private forum, and the main forum was just full of people complaining about the existence of an exclusive forum. Nothing positive came out of it so we shut it down after like a month or two.
The main issue with a lot of thread derailing stems from people refusing to back down. If you're getting into an argument or discussion with someone you just cant see eye to eye with, probably best to just move on. Someone makes a "bad" post and then eight people feel the need to all take turns explaining why they're wrong and then that person continues responding negatively and then those people respond back etc. No good. It's literally happening right now with whatever is going on with the whole Cyclizar Shed Tail nonsense. It could have ended like an entire page ago but now its devolved into passive aggressive bullshit and insults. That ain't helpin anybody.
On another note, the amount of likes the tyrannical moderator Finchinator has farmed off of you innocent people in the last 24 hours is honestly heinous. Disgusting one liners drip feeding you information he easily could have just said in one post. Back in my day, you had to work hard for your likes, and this is what it has come to? Unbelievable. I wont stand for this power abuse. I'm coming after you.
I vaguely remember this existing but can't remember what it even accomplished. That on its own says a lot.
To address the point this post was responding to: I admittedly haven't had a lot of time to play the game recently
I dunno man, I got most of my likes back during Gen 6 making overall awful and low-effort posts. I actually try nowadays.
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So.... Covert Cloak
This Item is having a lot of discussion about its usefulness and I think it's really interesting to discuss why.
It is fundamentally impossible in a lot of cases to identify when covert cloak will activate.
A corviknight w/cloak trying to wall a chien-pao? (or smthn) It's impossible to tell if the fact that you were never flinched due to rng, or due to the effects of covert cloak. Thus, as you never see it activate, it can never be surely identified as a difference maker in a lot of scenarios.
There's only really a handful of moves that cloak affects, such as mystical fire, nuzzle, and the elephant in the room, salt cure. I don't think there's an objectively right answer between cloak & leftovers as the better item. Cloak turns matchups that may come down to rng to more reliable wins, while leftovers gives just enough resources to edge out a victory in other matchups
This Item is having a lot of discussion about its usefulness and I think it's really interesting to discuss why.
It is fundamentally impossible in a lot of cases to identify when covert cloak will activate.
A corviknight w/cloak trying to wall a chien-pao? (or smthn) It's impossible to tell if the fact that you were never flinched due to rng, or due to the effects of covert cloak. Thus, as you never see it activate, it can never be surely identified as a difference maker in a lot of scenarios.
There's only really a handful of moves that cloak affects, such as mystical fire, nuzzle, and the elephant in the room, salt cure. I don't think there's an objectively right answer between cloak & leftovers as the better item. Cloak turns matchups that may come down to rng to more reliable wins, while leftovers gives just enough resources to edge out a victory in other matchups
On mons like corv it is definitely a bit iffy, since helmet and leftovers are generally more preferable in most games. I think on pex and plot dengo it definitely seems reliable for mr salt cure along with the added bonuses that come with it. In dengos case ur also able to turbo wall hatt, no paras or SpA drops to be had. Pretty fun.
i like cloak better because:
- it effectively turns a top-5 or top-10 pokemon into a non-issue if run on the right things
- severely limits hatterene and also somewhat limits grimmsnarl if it's running spirit break
- it prevents you from being frozen by anything, ever
- protects you from rock tomb speed drops, which might not sound important but it can be against certain breloom sets
- prevents people from surprising you with obscure nonsense that no one realistically prepares for like acid spray and pounce
- wearing a cloak looks stylish and cool, as opposed to holding a nasty-ass apple core
- i don't expect decidueye to see any ou usage, but if it does, cloak prevents spirit shackle from trapping you
- trick room melmetal becomes a lot less annoying when it can't flinch you with double iron bash
- jirachi and togekiss. don't really think i need to explain this point
- prevents the def drop from gapdos thunderous kick
- the genies have their new silly moves that have 30% chances to do things, or 0% if you run covert cloak
- if scald actually does come back, this item will make it somewhat less stupid
I agree with everything that's already been said about this. It needs to go ASAP.
This one deserves more of an explanation but I still think it needs to go ASAP.
I think the main reason people don't see the problem with Annihilape is because so many people on the lower ladder don't know how to use it properly. Like, sure, if they carelessly switch into a Toxic, Nuzzle, or a WoW and it gets cripppled right away, yeah it's pretty straightforward. And if they don't know to run Taunt, yeah it's also easier to handle. But when good players use it carefully it's near impossible to handle unless you're willing to immediately sacrifice something and revenge kill it, which you're really only able to do if you're an HO team. And if you fail at revenge-killing it, you've just powered it up even further. Add in the fact that it's immune to Extremespeed and neutral to Sucker Punch, usually with multiple bulk-ups under its belt, and revenge-killing is difficult even for the most aggressive teams. Not to mention the fact that it can tera to whatever type it needs to avoid certain threats.
It singlehandedly moves Stall from "weak but somewhat viable" to "gets 6-0'd by one of the most common pokemon in the tier", and makes Balanced teams far more difficult to pull off. It's objectively bad when multiple playstyles are immediately negated by one pokemon existing. Just because something *can* *theoretically* be countered, doesn't mean it *actually* can be countered in practice. Most good players will be able to steer the ape away from trouble and it really only needs one free turn to start becoming an immediate problem. I say it needs to go.
I'd understand arguments in favour of a suspect rather than an outright ban, but my personal vote would be ban.
I don't think there's any way this pokemon, as it exists right now, can be part of a healthy OU tier.
The biggest problem for Cyclizar is that it enables some of the cringiest aspects of pokemon that are otherwise manageable. The ability to get a free sub up for any set-up sweeper exacerbates problems with so many other pokemon. It's a shame for Cyclizar, because it will never be the problem on its own. It can't do much damage, and it's utility moves are slightly annoying but not ever a serious problem that can't be handled by most, if not all, teams.
So, just ban Shed Tail, you might say. But having experimented with both Cyclizar and Orthworm, it's very clear that Shed Tail itself isn't the problem. It's the fact that Cyclizar can get 3-4 Shed Tails off a game no problem, with no additional support. Compare that to Orthworm, with no form of recovery, a terrible speed tier, weak special defenses, and a very limited set of viable moves it can run. Orthworm will typically only get one Shed Tail off per game. Even if you run Leftovers, it's probably taking enough chip damage to fall below 50%, not to mention the fact that it can be easily outrun and chipped below if its close. That means it's only got one chance to make its Shed Tail be a game-changer, and most well-constructed teams can handle one Shed Tail. And if you want to get more Shed Tails out of it, you have to run Pawmot Revival Blessing without hazards up, or somebody with Healing wish, which requires multiple pokemon to pull off.
The problem is that when you *don't* have to be perfect with your Shed Tail timing, you can just keep spamming it, and eventually end up in a game breaking position. It's overly constraining towards teambuilding to need to have *so many ways* of handling different set-up sweepers behind a sub. When offensive play takes next to no thought, and defensive counterplay has to be nearly perfect to avoid a sweep, something isn't balanced right. And I personally believe most of the set-up sweepers are fine on their own, it's Cyclizar's support that takes them over the edge.
I fully believe this thing is just objectively bad for the tier and needs to go ASAP.
Why can't we just have nice things?
But seriously, I don't find this to be game-breaking at all. In fact, I think it's necessary for the tier. Right now, it's the only thing in my team that can switch into Chi-Yu. Granted we all know Chi-Yu will be gone ASAP so that's not really a consideration anymore.
I think it's very limited in terms of possible movepool. It's always running Salt Cure and Recover, so you just have to just figure out if it's running SR + Protect or ID + Body Press. I personally run Curse + EQ but I hardly see anyone else using that set. It's great for pressuring Clodsire and Toxapex.
If it's running ID + Body Press, it's giving free switch-ins to Gholdengo, Dragapult, Annihilape, and Skeledirge, all of whom can immediately threaten it. If it's running SR + Protect, it can be far too passive and gets hard-walled by anything with Covert Cloak. I believe the meta has adapted to both of these sets already. If you're, for example, getting swept by ID + Body Press sets consistently, the problem is with your team, not the pokemon. I agree with what someone earlier said, about it basically being in the same place now that Toxapex was in previous generations. Meta-defining, but not game-breaking.
Its stats are objectively fantastic and it can be equally bulky on the special or physical side, but its attack is average with only curse to boost it. It's always going to be manageable on the side it hasn't invested in. I.e., if you invest max SP Def, you lose the ability to stay in against EQ's and many other Fighting STAB attacks. If you invest in max Phys Def, you can get easily taken out by any water or grass attacks on the special side (not to mention Skeledirge Earth Power, especially after a Torch Song). Tera helps to an extent, but I don't find it fundamentally changes the situation. It's still going to be weak on whichever defense it hasn't invested in, and will still primarily rely on Salt Cure for damage.
I've seen nothing that leads me to believe it's worthy of even a suspect, let alone a ban.
Maybe a controversial one but I think Gholdengo is probably, just about, fine as-is.
Yes it's one of the best pokemon in the tier. Yes Make it Rain hits like a nuke. Yes Shadow Ball is so easily spammable. Yes not being able to Defog/Rapid Spin against it is annoying. But no, I don't think it's game-breaking or invalidates playstyles, as others have said.
The main reasons I don't think it's broken are: (1) very straightforward to revenge kill (2) relies too much on its item and you can usually tell what set it's running from its item (3) prediction-reliant, especially when choice-locked, and (4) so many ways of clearing hazards still exist.
(1) Its average speed tier means it's quite straightforward to outspeed and revenge kill. It's weak to Sucker Punch, and has to tera to not get taken out by STAB Sucker Punch's. It only outspeeds Great Tusk if it's Scarfed, for example. Allowing it to either KO it or force a switch and Spin away Hazards. And if it's Scarfed, it runs into problem 3 about being prediction-reliant when choice-locked.
(2) It *needs* a Scarf to hit a good speed tier, it *needs* Specs to maximize its wall-breaking, and it *needs* Leftovers or Air Balloon to run a Nasty Plot set. It's always going to be missing whatever items it isn't using. If you don't see Leftover or Air Balloon, you *know* it's going to be choice-locked and can play accordingly. If it's got a Balloon or Leftovers, you know it's bulkier and probably Nasty Plot. If you don't see it, you know it's likely 3 attacks + trick.
(3) Following on from the items point, it becomes quite predictable once you know what set it's running and you can react accordingly and play your check. And yes, you should have a Gholdengo check in your team. I don't believe that makes it game-breaking.
(4) Yeah, it's annoying that you can't Defog/Spin on it, but there are still plenty of ways of dealing with hazards. I personally run a Magic Bouncer in all my teams and really never have an issue with them. It's quite predictable when people will set hazards, and it's easy enough to safely get your bouncer in. Hatterene is particularly handy for this role because it magic bounces hazards away, and can then paralyze Gholdengo through its ability with Nuzzle.
All in all, I agree it's meta-defining, but I don't think it's broken. I wouldn't complain about a suspect, and it's no skin off my back as I personally don't even run one in my team, but I'd personally vote no ban.
This thing absolutely won't be an issue once Cyclizar is gone. It's basically a gimmick pokemon that needs so much support to work. Once Cyclizar is out of the picture, it will be very difficult to set up the same way. It's quite fragile on the physical side, weak to Sucker Punch, neutral to Extremespeed, and can't hit hard until after at least two turns, giving plenty of time (and margin for error) to switch in your counter. I don't want to spend a lot of time on this one because it's the least problematic pokemon on this list. I've personally never had an issue dealing with it, and once Cyclizar is gone, it's going to be even less of an issue. No ban, no suspect.
Another one for me that falls under "why can't we have nice things?"
It's very good, but in my opinion, definitely not broken. It's another one that will be weakened by the loss of Cyclizar support. Without a guaranteed sub up, it's highly susceptible to status, being completely neutralized by WoW, T/Wave, Nuzzle, and doesn't want to be Toxic'd. It needs *at least* one DD to start sweeping but probably wants 2 or more. It can always get at least one due to multiscale, but it needs more than one to guarantee certain KO's with Extremespeed.
I personally run a tera normal one with DD/Silk Scarf and I find it to be a great cleaner, but it definitely needs support. It can't push through Corviknight or Dondozo, and it doesn't like coming up against Great Tusk. It also suffers from moveslot selection, and misses whatever it doesn't have. Want Ice Spinner for Great Tusk? Well, you're not getting through Dondozo or Corviknight. Want Thunderpunch for Corviknight? Well, you get walled by Tusk and still don't push through Dondozo. And if you don't run Roost? Well, you're going to struggle with longevity.
I think this is one that is very good, but not broken, and I think most people will come around to this once Cyclizar is gone. I believe it's the combination of Shed Tail support and multiscale that make people think it's broken.
I'll be sad if this one goes but I'll understand it.
Another one, like Gholdengo, that I think is very good and meta-defining, but I don't think it deserves a ban.
The primary argument I've seen for the ban is the fact that at tera dark it 2hko's the entire metagame with Crunch when Adamant and Choice Banded. I think people are forgetting what it gives up to get to that power level: (1) It has to give up its amazing speed tier (2) It becomes choice-locked and prediction reliant and (3) can't run HDB and is hazard weak making it more revenge killable.
When Adamant natured, Meowscarada, Cyclizar, and Roaring Moon all outspeed it, so does a +1'd Quaquaval. Banded Meowscarada ohko's with U turn and no hazards, and unbanded, it's a roll for ohko without hazards, and guaranteed with hazards up. Quaquaval resists its STAB and can ko with Close Combat.
It also becomes heavily prediction-reliant, and can risk getting locked into an unfavourable move and be forced to switch. If it locks on Crunch, it becomes susceptible to Extremespeed Dragonite and Mach Punchers like Breloom. If it locks onto Sucker Punch it can be forced to switch giving you valuable free turns.
Finally, and what really puts it over the edge for me as being not too broken, is the fact that it's so frail and weak to the most common entry hazards before tera-ing. If its banded, it can't run HDB meaning it loses 25% on entry, if it gets choice locked into the wrong move it'll have to switch out and come back in and take more hazard damage. Rocky Helmet further chips away at this. All of this combined means it's quite straightforward to get down into the range where it can be revenge-killed, *especially* by Choice Scarf'd pokemon. It doesn't want status, and gets crippled by all of WoW, Toxic, and any type of paralysis. It's difficult to switch in freely, as it has poor defenses, only one immunity, and is weak to all entry hazards.
I really don't think this thing is as broken and spammable as Chi-Yu. Unlike Chi-Yu, it takes Rocky Helmet chip damage. Unlike Chi-Yu it can be poisoned by Baneful Bunker or weakened by Spiky Shield. It also obviously gets immediately shut down by Scizor. Ice isn't as strong of an offensive type as Fire, and can't be boosted by weather. It's SD sets can't get through Dondozo. Even it's banded sets don't want to take a Body Press from Dondozo.
I will totally understand if this gets suspected, and I wouldn't be shocked to see it banned, but I really hope it stays. I personally run a Choice Scarf because it hits a nutty speed tier (outruns +2'd Jolly Tusk which is funny because they never expect it) but it definitely misses the damage from not being banded. I think it's a top-tier revenge killer and an absolutely elite breaker, but it doesn't have the role compression issues that some of these other top pokemon have. It can't really support the team other than through damage, so it forces the rest of your team to pick up the slack on utility. Once a few these obviously broken pokemon are quickbanned, I think this should be given a chance to stay in the tier.
For context on my opinions, the team I've been running for the past few weeks is: Dragapult, Dragonite, Garganacl, Corviknight, Chien-Pao, and Espeon/Hatterene.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
Can we actually quick ban fish instead of dragging our feet like we did for 7 months with Dracovish? I get that quickbans should be limited but I haven't seen a single comment ever that was pro fish.
Edit: appears we are going to drag our feet again.
Edit 2: no I am full of shit, Smogon has some balls this time around.
Edit: appears we are going to drag our feet again.
Edit 2: no I am full of shit, Smogon has some balls this time around.
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If Chi-Yu has a million number of fans I am one of them. If Chi-Yu has ten fans I am one of them. If Chi-Yu has no fans, that means I am no more on the earth. If world is against Chi-Yu, I am against the world. I love Chi-Yu till my last breath.
IMO one aspect of the Lefties vs Covert Cloak debate that gets skewed is conflating Lefties recovering HP in every battle with Lefties always making a difference in that battle. In other words, it’s easy to assume that Lefties will be broadly more useful because there’s more cases where it will activate (ie every turn you’re in battle) vs Covert Cloak which only activates situationally, but if Lefties doesn’t actually heal enough HP over the course of the battle to prevent you from being KO’d, was it really a useful held item? I’d be interested to see the stats if people started tracking how often Lefties recovery actually decided a matchup (I’m guessing probably still more often than CC, but not as often as you’d assume).
Chi-Yu needs to go. Suspect is fine but I'm pretty sure EVERYONE wants the same thing. Quickban the ARSON FISH to Ubers where it belongs.
I would not mind a suspect for Espathra. If you're not prepared, that mon can steam roll your ENTIRE TEAM in a flash. This isn't like Blaziken in Gen 5 since Tera helps it even more. If there was no Tera, I'd think this mon wouldn't be much of a problem. Still STRONG but manageable.
Shed Tail needs to go, NOT THE MON. C'mon man it's 2023, can we stop with these silly decisions and be sensible? I mean if you ban Cyc people are just gonna use Orth anyway. Do you REALLY wanna have another Area Trap Diglett situation again? CUT IT AT THE SOURCE!
Everything else shouldn't be on the list IMO. Garg has many common weaknesses. Tera Normal Dnite is strong but SUPER OBVIOUS and weak to rocks. Annihilape is the same deal, very predicable. Gholdengo is good but slow and scarf is easy to deal with once revealed. Pao is weak to rocks and frail.
Kudos on not banning Tera! REALLY didn't want another stale metagame after a few months. Heck, I'd even be fine with another one after the Home update this Spring. I feel like all the returning mons are gonna shake up the meta something FEIRCE! Can't wait to see what Tera Type Lando-T will be rocking the mons lol. Probably Flying for the STAB...
I would not mind a suspect for Espathra. If you're not prepared, that mon can steam roll your ENTIRE TEAM in a flash. This isn't like Blaziken in Gen 5 since Tera helps it even more. If there was no Tera, I'd think this mon wouldn't be much of a problem. Still STRONG but manageable.
Shed Tail needs to go, NOT THE MON. C'mon man it's 2023, can we stop with these silly decisions and be sensible? I mean if you ban Cyc people are just gonna use Orth anyway. Do you REALLY wanna have another Area Trap Diglett situation again? CUT IT AT THE SOURCE!
Everything else shouldn't be on the list IMO. Garg has many common weaknesses. Tera Normal Dnite is strong but SUPER OBVIOUS and weak to rocks. Annihilape is the same deal, very predicable. Gholdengo is good but slow and scarf is easy to deal with once revealed. Pao is weak to rocks and frail.
Kudos on not banning Tera! REALLY didn't want another stale metagame after a few months. Heck, I'd even be fine with another one after the Home update this Spring. I feel like all the returning mons are gonna shake up the meta something FEIRCE! Can't wait to see what Tera Type Lando-T will be rocking the mons lol. Probably Flying for the STAB...
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I am stoked that Terastylizing just barely survived. I think it makes the metagame better and makes players think outside the box. The biggest issue at this point is definitely Gholdengo.
Please elaborate on how something being predictable makes it balanced. Chi Yu is mostly predictable too ya know. Some things just do too much regardless if you know its coming.
Note: Ape isnt all that predictable due to how you have to deal with its multiple sets
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