Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[DrPumpkinz]

eviolite boosts defence and special defence, and body press is a move that uses the user's defence in the damage calculation.

any way,I believe that you people are right.
naclstack isn't that good.

The only time Body Press (and Foul Play) is boosted how you'd expect it to be boosted is with "stage" boosts like Iron Defense. Everything else (items, abilities, status effects, etc.) all interact with it as if it were a regular physical attack.

 

[Turtlek]

The only time Body Press (and Foul Play) is boosted how you'd expect it to be boosted is with "stage" boosts like Iron Defense. Everything else (items, abilities, status effects, etc.) all interact with it as if it were a regular physical attack.

If I recall well, Foul Play is boosted by Powers, and I think Band for BP?

 

[Yahooboo]

eviolite boosts defence and special defence, and body press is a move that uses the user's defence in the damage calculation.

any way,I believe that you people are right.
naclstack isn't that good.

I understand why you'd think that, but it just doesn't boost Body Press. Fur Coat is much the same.

 

[RajonRandom]

How exactly are you dealing with Dondozo/Amoonguss core right now? I feel like that the meta is missing good stallbreakers like Heatran and Nidoking were in Sw/Sh

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

I know that this should probably go in the SPL discussion thread, and I apologize if I shouldn’t post it here, but this thread is much more active. So far, bulkier teams (Pex in particular appears to be doing well, so I think it’s safe to say that proclamations of its demise without Scald and Knock were premature) have been much more common in the first week of SPL and that isn’t surprising; bulkier teams tend to be more consistent and therefore favored for tournament play, but the bans of things like Chi-Yu and Ape also helped make the tier more hospitable for defensive options. However, I wonder how the general perception of Tera is now that the meta has settled in more. When Tera was tested, HO was a far more prominent playstyle. Do people, especially those that said that Tera is “uncompetitive,” feel like Tera is more manageable in the current meta?

I haven’t gone through all of the SPL replays yet but just based on what I’ve seen, I don’t feel like there have been many of the scenarios where unexpected and unpredictable Teras swings a game, which was one of the main fears that I heard during the suspect period. Sure, there are some games like this where Lax’s Sandy Shocks being Tera Fairy probably caught Star off guard and picked up the kill on Meowscarada, but I don’t feel like that decided the game. There’s also often a trade-off to your team’s defensive composition when you Tera, which is shown in this game after ima’s Gholdengo goes for Tera Normal and allows a Spin/loses its Fairy resist (although it was heavily chipped at that point anyway and it being able to resist Moonblast didn’t matter as much). Of the games that I’ve seen, this game was most swung by a particular Tera but I think it had a lot more to do with Garganacl being dumb than anything else (as an aside, Chien-Pao and Garganacl are the two mons I would like to see suspect tested, but that’s neither here nor there).

 

[Venduria]

How exactly are you dealing with Dondozo/Amoonguss core right now? I feel like that the meta is missing good stallbreakers like Heatran and Nidoking were in Sw/Sh

Iron Valiant @ Expert Belt / Life Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Moonblast
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt
- Close Combat

252 SpA Expert Belt Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 194-230 (44.9 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Expert Belt Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 314-372 (62.3 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 211-250 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 341-403 (67.6 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mixed Iron Valiant deals with both pretty well. But my personal favorite to deal with those 2 is an underappreciated Rotom. (But seriously Expert Belt Iron Valiant is heat)


Rotom-Heat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 248 HP / 84 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Overheat
- Will-O-Wisp
- Volt Switch

84+ SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 378-446 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
84+ SpA Rotom-Heat Discharge vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 302-356 (59.9 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dondozo Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 174-206 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dondozo Wave Crash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 246-290 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

SpA investment guarantees OHKO on standard Amoongus after SR, and easy 2HKO on Dondozo. You do get 2HKO by both Liquidation and Wave Crash but there's no shot either are switching into you. Speed EVs outspeed max Speed Pelliper and Scizor by 1 point.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

RestTalk Dondozo will almost always live two Tera-Dark Banded Crunches, and has a 62% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (guaranteed with one layer of Spikes as well), though has to beware the flinch chance

The Pao user could just fire an icicle crash and now the Dozo is in range

 

[PeachJuiceOwO]

The Pao user could just fire an icicle crash and now the Dozo is in range

Apologies if this is a dumb question, but why would you fire off an icicle crash when dondozo is a water type? Is it for tera?

 

[Rootb]

Of the games that I’ve seen, this game was most swung by a particular Tera but I think it had a lot more to do with Garganacl being dumb than anything else (as an aside, Chien-Pao and Garganacl are the two mons I would like to see suspect tested, but that’s neither here nor there).

The Curse set for Garganacl looks so much better than trying to rely on Salt Cure chip and prayers. Given how good Rock/Ground coverage is, I'm surprised it took so long to become more popular.

 

[Alternator]

The Pao user could just fire an icicle crash and now the Dozo is in range

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 85-101 (16.8 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 160-190 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 3HKO

Even without terastalizing, Crunch is almost twice as powerful as Ice Crash versus Dondozo. Were you perhaps thinking of Clodsire?

 

[AndViet]

I know that this should probably go in the SPL discussion thread, and I apologize if I shouldn’t post it here, but this thread is much more active. So far, bulkier teams (Pex in particular appears to be doing well, so I think it’s safe to say that proclamations of its demise without Scald and Knock were premature) have been much more common in the first week of SPL and that isn’t surprising; bulkier teams tend to be more consistent and therefore favored for tournament play, but the bans of things like Chi-Yu and Ape also helped make the tier more hospitable for defensive options. However, I wonder how the general perception of Tera is now that the meta has settled in more. When Tera was tested, HO was a far more prominent playstyle. Do people, especially those that said that Tera is “uncompetitive,” feel like Tera is more manageable in the current meta?

I haven’t gone through all of the SPL replays yet but just based on what I’ve seen, I don’t feel like there have been many of the scenarios where unexpected and unpredictable Teras swings a game, which was one of the main fears that I heard during the suspect period. Sure, there are some games like this where Lax’s Sandy Shocks being Tera Fairy probably caught Star off guard and picked up the kill on Meowscarada, but I don’t feel like that decided the game. There’s also often a trade-off to your team’s defensive composition when you Tera, which is shown in this game after ima’s Gholdengo goes for Tera Normal and allows a Spin/loses its Fairy resist (although it was heavily chipped at that point anyway and it being able to resist Moonblast didn’t matter as much). Of the games that I’ve seen, this game was most swung by a particular Tera but I think it had a lot more to do with Garganacl being dumb than anything else (as an aside, Chien-Pao and Garganacl are the two mons I would like to see suspect tested, but that’s neither here nor there).

The last game is the point I've been trying to get at for the last couple of weeks. People in this thread would say oh Chein Pao is a way bigger issue than Garganacl. I think Pao should get suspect tested but to say it's more overwhelming to take care of than Nacl is just not true. We've pretty much seen all the Chien Pao sets you can run, people will start getting creative with Swords Dance + Recover + Chilly Reception [Defense Boost] bulky set (cool). We're just starting to scratch the surface when it comes to Garganacl. That water Garganacl set with Curse beats even Cloak Dengo, when that's been the whole craze for the last 2 weeks 'Cloak Dengo'. Shadow Ball does such minimal damage because of Nacls ability and being full Sp. Def set, and Make It Rain can't touch a Water Tera Type Nacl so if you're cursing up (Nacl has base 100 attack) you can easily OHKO Dengo after 2 Curses.

Calc - Nacl vs Dengo (+2 EQ)

+2 0 Atk Garganacl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 300-354 (95.2 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Hopefully people will realize there's so much Nacl sets that haven't really been popularized (we're just scratching the surface) that will easily show how broken it is.

edit: Don't remind me how easy it is to Knock Off Gholdengo's Covert Cloak where it would eventually get abused by Salt Cure and not be able to switch in on Nacl to set up Nasty Plot.

 

[Magcargo]

edit: Don't remind me how easy it is to Knock Off Gholdengo's Covert Cloak where it would eventually get abused by Salt Cure and not be able to switch in on Nacl to set up Nasty Plot.

I mean, the ony mon I can think of that Gholdengo actually wants to switch into and has Knock is Iron Valiant. Every other mon like Meowscarada, Iron Treads, Great Tusks, etc that runs Knock are MUs that I would be running away from as Gholdengo anyways.

IDK, maybe it is easy to Knock Off, but compared to other potential Cloak Users like Pex and Corv, I feel like its much easier to play in a way where it isn't getting hit by the move.

 

[Empress Mobile]

Has anyone experimented with Corrosion Glimmora? Obviously Toxic Debris is a great ability, but a number of Pokemon which otherwise have a good/decent matchup against it could be crippled by a surprise Toxic. Namely hazard removers in Corviknight and Iron Treads, along with Clodsire/Toxapex/Amoongus which would soak up its Toxic Spikes anyway.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 85-101 (16.8 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 160-190 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 3HKO

Even without terastalizing, Crunch is almost twice as powerful as Ice Crash versus Dondozo. Were you perhaps thinking of Clodsire?

I meant to say, that Pao will fire an icicle crash, then switch out, come back in, Tera dark and crunch Dozo

 

[Soiramio3000]

ever since chi-yu and cyclizar went to ubers it has become hard to justify using beloom on my teams.

if the bans continue this pokemon will become nearly useless and drop to UUBL.

 

[Moyashi]

ever since chi-yu and cyclizar went to ubers it has become hard to justify using beloom on my teams.

if the bans continue this pokemon will become nearly useless and drop to UUBL.

Aside from the fact it wasn't just used to deal with those two, Loom still offensively checks Roaring Moon, Kingambit, RotomW, Chien-Pao lacking ice shard, Azumarill, and in general is capable of threatening a ton of common mons from Clodsire to Hatterene to Garchomp lacking fire coverage. And can pressure mons like Garg and Dondozo into using tera. Not to mention the threat of spore.

Frankly it's a criminally under explored Pokemon in the tier especially with bulkier teams popping up here and there, which it can take advantage of.

 

[Soiramio3000]

Aside from the fact it wasn't just used to deal with those two, Loom still offensively checks Roaring Moon, Kingambit, RotomW, Chien-Pao lacking ice shard, Azumarill, and in general is capable of threatening a ton of common mons from Clodsire to Hatterene to Garchomp lacking fire coverage. And can pressure mons like Garg and Dondozo into using tera. Not to mention the threat of spore.

Frankly it's a criminally under explored Pokemon in the tier especially with bulkier teams popping up here and there, which it can take advantage of.

those 2 pokemon shaped the metagame with such way that brelloom was a perfectly safe choice for a team.
now that they are gone its opportunity cost has increased a lot.
it is still good but it is nowhere near as good it was a few weeks ago.
it has become harder to bring it in than before.

also it does not check roaring moon,where did you get that?
also if it is severely injured chien pao can still beat it with sucker punch.(sucker punch does not fail if the opponent uses a priority move https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1780672561, it only fails on status moves ).

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

sucker punch does not fail if the opponent uses a priority move https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1780672561, it only fails on status moves

Not to be pedantic, but this isn’t entirely true. Sucker Punch fails against a move that out-prioritizes it, so if a Pokémon used Sucker Punch against either a move with higher than +1 priority (like Fake Out or Extremespeed) or against a faster Pokémon that also used a +1 priority move, Sucker Punch will fail. In your replay, Sucker Punch doesn’t fail because Chien-Pao is faster than Breloom, but if Breloom were faster than Chien-Pao for some reason, Mach Punch would go first and then Sucker would fail. Obviously Breloom isn’t going to be faster than Chien-Pao but it is relevant if an Adamant Chien-Pao tries to go for Sucker against a Jolly Chien-Pao that also used Sucker, or more importantly, if Chien-Pao tries to use Sucker against a Dragonite going for Extremespeed.

 

[zyzzyva]

I know speaking of is a bit taboo around these parts, but I've run into + combos a few times on ladder and it's honestly annoying enough to face for balance teams that I feel it merits a bit of discussion.

Slowking Set

Slowking @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Surf
- Future Sight
- Slack Off
- Chilly Reception

For starters, Slowking is legitimately a very useful Pokemon right now. Future Sight + Chilly Reception is just as good as the Future Sight + Teleport combos of yesteryear, paired with Chien-Pao it becomes especially potent because Chien gets the defense raise from Snow, and it's already difficult enough to switch into without the threat of a Future Sight looming and scaring away Dark resists like Great Tusk and Iron Hands. It also helps answer Garg without needing to resort to Covert Cloak, since Chilly Reception will go off before Salt Cure damage and allow for a free switch-in to whatever you have that will scare out Garg (with that said, someone did run Covert Cloak Slowking in SPL this past week) (they lost) (but they got haxed). Regenerator + Slack Off also means that even if you do take a turn of Salt Cure damage it isn't a big deal. Of course, Slowking is still a good special wall in its own right, and if need be you can Tera Water to remove the annoying Ghost weakness Vs Pult and Gholdengo.

Glaceon Set

Glaceon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Shadow Ball

Only including 3 moves here, I have no idea what the fourth move should be but you'll probably never click it anyway. Ice Beam, Water Pulse, Hyper Voice, Yawn, Wish, Rest, Trailblaze could all be considered I guess.

Glaceon makes a surprisingly decent partner to Slowking. Hail support is very nice for Glaceon, giving it 100% accurate Blizzards and passive recovery via Ice Body (you can also run Snow Cloak if you're a psychopath). Its bulk is whatever, decent enough to maybe take a hit if you need it to (especially on the Physical side with Hail up), but ideally with Chilly Reception you bring it in for free on something it can beat. And once it's in, it's really difficult to find a good switch-in to Tera Ice Blizzards and Freeze-Drys. For offensive teams this may not be such a big problem, since you can probably get a hit off and limit Glaceon's switch-ins, but for more balanced teams it can be really difficult to deal with; you may just have to give up a Pokemon whenever Glaceon gets in. No better way to demonstrate all that than with a wall of calcs

Wall of Calcs

Tera Ice Blizzard Vs Resists
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 226-267 (61.2 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 171-202 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 214-252 (56.6 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Moth: 181-214 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 189-223 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 238-280 (70 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Orthworm: 319-376 (92.7 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tauros-Paldea-Fire: 265-312 (74.8 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tera Ice Freeze Dry Vs Bulky Waters
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 284-336 (93.4 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 356-420 (117.1 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 476-560 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash: 476-560 (156.5 - 184.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 388-460 (96 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Tera Ice Blizzard Vs Special Walls
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 496-584 (96.4 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 568-672 (122.6 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 316-374 (79.1 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 306-360 (75.7 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 258-304 (81.1 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 230-272 (32.2 - 38%) -- 96.1% chance to 3HKO

Vs Physical Attacks in Snow
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Glaceon in Snow: 204-240 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Ice Body recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Glaceon in Snow: 158-188 (58.3 - 69.3%) -- approx. 2HKO after Ice Body recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Glaceon in Snow on a critical hit: 142-168 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Ice Body recovery
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Glaceon in Snow: 242-288 (89.2 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Glaceon in Snow: 135-160 (49.8 - 59%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO after Ice Body recovery

In any case, it still seems pretty gimmicky to me, and if you have to pick one partner for Slowking then Chien-Pao is clearly better, but from experience playing against it it's better than you might expect... and for those committed to making Glaceon work in tiers where she doesn't belong, this is probably the best way to do it.

 

[Soiramio3000]

It has been over a week ever since the last radar update.
Did something happen to the counsil?

I wish they would ban corviknight since there aren't any pokemon that can reliably get rid of it.

 

[AM]

It has been over a week ever since the last radar update.
Did something happen to the counsil?

I wish they would ban corviknight since there aren't any pokemon that can reliably get rid of it.

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

It has been over a week ever since the last radar update.
Did something happen to the counsil?

I wish they would ban corviknight since there aren't any pokemon that can reliably get rid of it.

 

[658Greninja]

It has been over a week ever since the last radar update.
Did something happen to the counsil?

I wish they would ban corviknight since there aren't any pokemon that can reliably get rid of it.

 

[XenonHero126]

I wish they would ban corviknight since there aren't any pokemon that can reliably get rid of it.

The above, and

 

[AndViet]

It has been over a week ever since the last radar update.
Did something happen to the counsil?

I wish they would ban corviknight since there aren't any pokemon that can reliably get rid of it.

They're alive and well I can assure you.

But Corviknight needs a ban?