Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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1LDK

Trial by fury
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On the other hand I'm not really sold on any set that isn't booster energy
Expert belt is a bit Electric terrain dependent but its the set I'm most scared of honestly, because you get the speed boost AND the specs boost via coverage. Specs is my baby, Tera Specs Fairy does 60% to a fucking max spedef calm ting lu, you basically can't switch into it safely at all, It has started to get attention (and that's why tera electric has become more popular as a way to counter them) It doesn't require that much prediction due to the OBSCENE amount of damage. Band is something I haven't tried yet, but I'm planning too, it seems like specs but weaker to Tankchomp, and with knock off and optionally poison jab for the Sylveon who wants to wall you.
 

awyp

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I know I'm in the minority but I will give my daily insight on why it should be a Garganacl suspect test over Pao. They're both broken, they both deserve bans but is anyone really stopping the Tera Water Curse Nacl set? if you put Cloak on it [beats other nacls], it beats Gholdengo (Covert Cloak) which is on every team pretty much due to the increase usage of Nacl in general. Nacl's dominace has absolutely changed the metagame in the last 3 weeks, Covert Cloak / Substitute user seems like a must on any team if you're trying to ladder with any success.

You can chip Pao with entry hazards if it decides to go CB, you have priority moves, there's a decent amount of walls to play around with (Shoutout to Pex, Dozo, Fairy Nacl, and Forry). I'm not saying it's not broken because it is but it's more manageable then something spamming Salt Cure while having the ability to setup in your face where you can't status it.

inb4 'the hurrdurr but covertcloak bruh' as if Knock Off doesn't exist.
 
You can chip Pao with entry hazards if it decides to go CB, you have priority moves, there's a decent amount of walls to play around with (Shoutout to Pex, Dozo, Fairy Nacl, and Forry). I'm not saying it's not broken because it is but it's more manageable then something spamming Salt Cure while having the ability to setup in your face where you can't status it.
You heard it here folks. Pao is manageable. I always wanted a tobi-kadachi to be in my team always :)
 
I know I'm in the minority but I will give my daily insight on why it should be a Garganacl suspect test over Pao. They're both broken, they both deserve bans but is anyone really stopping the Tera Water Curse Nacl set?
Not that one (currently UR) mon should move the needle all that much, but Arboliva (seen here) muscles the hell out of a Ground/Rock attacker set, while also matching up surprisingly well with the rest of the meta. Much like the rest of the tier, it gets mulched by Chien-Pao, but if Chien is the only thing to go?

Arboliva is looking pretty well-positioned as a threat to bulky water types.
 
Even with the nerfs, Greninja is pretty solid, has a good movepool which can be hard to predict and picking the wrong switch in to it can went wrong, if you can afford to do it in the first place.
 

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Taka

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I know I'm in the minority but I will give my daily insight on why it should be a Garganacl suspect test over Pao. They're both broken, they both deserve bans but is anyone really stopping the Tera Water Curse Nacl set? if you put Cloak on it [beats other nacls], it beats Gholdengo (Covert Cloak) which is on every team pretty much due to the increase usage of Nacl in general. Nacl's dominace has absolutely changed the metagame in the last 3 weeks, Covert Cloak / Substitute user seems like a must on any team if you're trying to ladder with any success.

You can chip Pao with entry hazards if it decides to go CB, you have priority moves, there's a decent amount of walls to play around with (Shoutout to Pex, Dozo, Fairy Nacl, and Forry). I'm not saying it's not broken because it is but it's more manageable then something spamming Salt Cure while having the ability to setup in your face where you can't status it.

inb4 'the hurrdurr but covertcloak bruh' as if Knock Off doesn't exist.

While I agree with everything you mentioned about Garganacl, I think you're undermining Chien Pao's longevity. Great Tusk is currently S rank and sees use on nearly every competitively viable team, so removal is not as far fetched for Chien Pao teams. SD HDB is also becoming more prevalent, so counterplay is even more limited depending on your team. Yes, priority can always beat it, but thats merely limited to Mach Punch from Breloom, Tera Water Banded Aqua Jet from Azumarill if Chien Pao is chipped, and +2 Sucker Punch from a Kingambit who's lost a few of its teammates. Additionally, out of those walls, you need multiple of them to even reasonably check Chien Pao, since outside of Garganacl, all of them are 2HKOed by Tera Dark Chien Pao, Forry is such ass right now, and the popular Tera Water Curse Garganacl still can't take on Chien Pao without accumulating prior boosts (and ofc chien pao isn't switching into Garganacl). So at best, you bring Garganacl, who is already broken and can still lose to Chien Pao thanks to BS Icicle Crash (or Tera Dark Crunch if Tera Water), or you trade the longevity of multiple defensive Pokemon on your team to simply check a single mon (who has just opened up a path for sweepers like Dragonite and Volcarona to win the game).

They both have some limited forms of counterplay, which in Garganacl's case is Trick and bringing in a strong wallbreaker before it can accumulate ID/Curse, since you can usually determine its Tera type based on the team structure, but its not as though Chien Pao has much counterplay. They are truly about equal.

Additionally, I think its worth considering the types of mons they are. Garganacl provides a ton of value in the builder defensively and really patches up team structures against the common CB Chien Pao abusing teams that are common right now, even if it as a mon is super broken and constraining on the builder. Chien Pao does not provide any defensive utility and just acts as a nuke button like Chi-Yu, but without bringing any of Chi-Yu's actual defensive utility. Garganacl could be more broken as an individual mon, but it contributes more to the tier than Chien Pao does, thanks to this defensive utility.

To be brutally honest though, I think this is a case of broken checks broken. Garganacl is one of the few things that can check Chien Pao when positioned right, and Chien Pao is one of the few things that can break Garganacl when positioned right. Both of them are stupidly restrictive in the builder, and I 100% would be okay with both leaving or either one being suspected, but I think that if one goes, the metagame will not be equipped to handle the other.

On a different note, how yall feeling about those Loom/Azu teams that are so common on the ladder? I really like how Azu and Loom feel right now, both are incredible in this metagame and match up well into common defensive cores such as Dirge/Ting-Lu and Pex/Garg/Dengo.
 
Unironically they are hard countered by toxicroak, now that I think of it, it also checks some mons that pao is weak too, hold up i think i have a new meta in my hands
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 381-448 (124.1 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 172-204 (56 - 66.4%) -- approx. 2HKO

gl with that "hard counter"
 

1LDK

Trial by fury
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252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 381-448 (124.1 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 172-204 (56 - 66.4%) -- approx. 2HKO

gl with that "hard counter"
252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Poison Jab vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 354-421 (95.6 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 354-421 (135.6 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 105-123 (34.2 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 139-164 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO

And toxicroak is faster than both
Okay, maybe not hard counter, I know im bad at the game but im not THAT bad
 
Greninja might need to be Specs over Scarf - Scarf Greninja shoots down Dragapult fine as long as it uses Ice Beam instead of Dark Pulse, but the Scarf Gholdengo calcs are disturbing:

252 SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 318-374 (100.3 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 308-366 (97.1 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 264-312 (83.8 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 220-260 (77.1 - 91.2%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Aw, Torrent Greninja was almost good enough there)
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 132-156 (46.3 - 54.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock) (This calc is Greninja trying to switch into Gholdengo twice)
252 SpA Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 352-416 (123.5 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Man, does Greninja getting Water Shuriken, Shadow Sneak, and Quick Attack instead of Sucker Punch hurt.

For a mon whose base typing resists all of Chien-Pao's, Gholdengo's, Kingambit's, and Skeledirge's (and Chi-Yu's) STABs, Greninja has trouble switching into even those. It even has trouble switching into its own default STABs:

252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 114-134 (40 - 47%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 121-143 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO (92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 114-134 (40 - 47%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 88-104 (30.8 - 36.4%) -- 61.1% chance to 3HKO (guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock)
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 108-128 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 102-120 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 63-74 (22.1 - 25.9%) -- 4.9% chance to 4HKO
+1 8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 93-111 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
8 SpA Skeledirge Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 102-120 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252 SpA Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 74-87 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- 12.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 83-98 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 3.9% chance to 3HKO (100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock)
252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 102-120 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Greninja Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 77-91 (27 - 31.9%) -- 61.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Greninja Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 63-75 (22.1 - 26.3%) -- 11.9% chance to 4HKO (guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock)

Greninja at least doesn't have to worry about Will-O-Wisp crippling it (as much) when switching into Skeledirge, unlike the other Protean and Libero mons:

252 SpA Greninja Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 218-258 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 266-314 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...and it can OHKO offensive Great Tusk with no boosting item and no Tera, unlike Meowscarada:

252 SpA Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 414-488 (111.5 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk on a critical hit: 270-318 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I suspect Greninja will not be quite as good as everyone thinks, but people will learn to fear Water-type special attackers some more again. Greninja getting Switcheroo is also arguably big for it despite remaining 1 base Speed point slower than Meowscarada.
 
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252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Poison Jab vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 354-421 (95.6 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 354-421 (135.6 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 105-123 (34.2 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 139-164 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO

And toxicroak is faster than both
Okay, maybe not hard counter, I know im bad at the game but im not THAT bad
If it cannot come in, it's not a counter; in Azu's case it's not even a softcounter as it cannot come in at all unless you predict really well (at which point we can start calling Cacturne an Azumarill counter), for Breloom it can maybe come in once (assuming no Bulldoze, or not just getting Spored on the switch) but it's still taking an embarrassingly high amount of damage for something whose moves it resists, damage you frankly don't want if you're already running LO. It's a check to both at best, but being slow wallbreakers, you should honestly be able to check both without resorting to stuff like Toxicroak. I guess it beats Belly Drum Azu post-setup though?

Besides, if you're LO Croak, you don't even "check some of the mons Pao is weak to". For example, you do not beat Dondozo, as your own LO recoil+Body Press outdamages the HP you get back from Drain Punch, and if you're not Drain Punch, it just spams RestTalk til you die from your own recoil. At that point Dondozo could be running only Water moves and still win.
 

Novax

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I suspect Greninja will not be quite as good as everyone thinks, but people will learn to fear Water-type special attackers some more again. Greninja getting Switcheroo is also arguably big for it despite remaining 1 base Speed point slower than Meowscarada.
Losing the permanent stat boost with the battle bond nerf , hits Greninja hard . I am obviously really sad if you can tell by seeing the pfp . I would have even used it if battle bond ( i will still though just for fun ) was not just a one time boost per match ( it would be broken then thoygh lmao) and tried to find atleast a niche use for my fav mon - but its condition seems worse than weavile tbh . It might see usage in lower tiers though :psysad:
 

1LDK

Trial by fury
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It's a check to both at best,
yeah, let's call it that, fair enough
Dondozo, as your own LO recoil+Body Press outdamages the HP you get back from Drain Punch,
The thing is, its a super specific thing about Dry Skin, and if I poison jab from time to time, that's more pressure into resting faster, I'm personally not very good in PP stalling, so I'm not too sure on what would be the best overall pattern tho

Anyway, this is enough propaganda for now, I'm going back to promoting :chesnaught:
 
Not sure I understand people saying the suspect is gonna be Chien-Pao, cause that mon seems like a cut-and-dry quickban. My money’s on Garganacl or maybe Gholdengo (but probably Garg).

also survey results when?
Survey closes in about 13 hours, so I don't suppose we will get the results until some time after then. As for the possibility of a quick ban, I think the council is pretty much done with those until Home/DLC drops--just because the community is in agreement on something doesn't mean it will be quick banned (see Dracovish, Pheromosa, and Spectrier all getting banned via suspect with >80% of the community vote last gen).
 
Losing the permanent stat boost with the battle bond nerf , hits Greninja hard . I am obviously really sad if you can tell by seeing the pfp . I would have even used it if battle bond ( i will still though just for fun ) was not just a one time boost per match ( it would be broken then thoygh lmao) and tried to find atleast a niche use for my fav mon - but its condition seems worse than weavile tbh . It might see usage in lower tiers though :psysad:
I'm not sure if I agree that Gren will be a lower tier mon even with the protean and battle bond nerf, it still offers a varied movepool which leads to a variety of sets to run - do people really think it would fall out of/not have a use in OU?
 
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