Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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decidueye just got released.
I think that this pokemon does have a niche in OU as a low-budget cyclizar thanks to its access to u-turn, knock off and defog allowing it to function as a role-supressor. (cyclizar has rapid spin instead of defog).
also it is both a ghost type and a grass type meaning that it can block great-tusk's rapid spin and hit it back super effectively with grass stab.

what set do you people reccomend?
The set where you use anything but Decidueye cause that mon will be trash new toy syndrome. Enjoy it for a week and then let it drop to RU/NU where it will eventually be.
 
I mean, you can use it as Specs, but why would I do that when Pult and Wake exist?
Yea but balance teams are usually "better” against Pult. They often carry ting-lu and emergency checks as by-products of their actual roles, furthermore Wake is heavily prepared for and there is at least one of the wake checks in many different teams. Sorry for the hurried response but I gotta take a nap.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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What tera do you recommend for Armarouge? I know grass is the best option but it’s quite predictable at this point.
I've ran Psychic for Psyspam but if you're running Weakness Policy (Endure), I would run Fighting for Focus Blast / Aura Sphere to hit genuinely hard on Dark Types
 
Decidueye @ Choice Band
Ability: Long Reach
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Grass / Ghost / ???
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Leaf Blade
- Spirit Shackle

just theory crafting as of now since I haven’t been able to test any real games with it yet. seems like a pretty competent band user since it’s speed is In the weird range where even with scarf it’s not as fast as some other scarfers that beat it. I ran enough speed to creep non scarf tusk since that seems like this sets main appeal, you also creep bulky air balloon gholdengo

Long reach also seems really good for a band set, as you aren’t getting screwed by rocky helmet chip meaning you can pretty easily knock on stuff switching in like corv
I'm theorycrafting quite hard, myself. Currently looking at using it defensively or offensively.

Defensive set:
:decidueye: @ Heavy-Duty Booties
Ability: Long Reach
Careful Nature | Tera Water/Fire (depends upon what you really want to do with this. Fire lets you check non-TB Water/Ground Volc)
244 HP / 252 SpDef / 12 Atk
Spirit Shackle
Knock Off
Roost
Defog

Pretty much a run of the mill SpDef set that I'd make. Massive bulk that you use to check various things. Nice to block spins, spores, etc. with it on paper, but then you need to make the double, or commit Tera, to avoid losing it on various Pokemon.

Offensive sets:
:decidueye: @ Heavy-Duty Booties/Lum Berry/whatever else you'd want on this behemoth lol
Ability: Long Reach
Jolly Nature | Tera Ghost/Dark
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 6 Def
Trailblaze
Spirit Shackle
U-Turn
Swords Dance

This thing apparently gets Trailblaze. Excuse me, whaaaaat? You aren't outspeeding any normal Dragapults with this (they'd need to be Adamant/Modest/any non-speed boosting nature), but +1 Speed and Swords Dance is scary on paper. In practice, probably won't be anywhere near as scary. If you want to be a CB set, then just swap Trail for Seed Bomb/Leaf Blade and SD for Knock Off. Low Kick is also an option to smash Kingambit.

252+ Atk Choice Band Decidueye Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 540-636 (146.3 - 172.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:decidueye: @ Heavy-Duty Booties/Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
Modest Nature | Tera Grass/Ghost/Dark
244 HP / 252 SpAtk / 12 Def
Giga Drain
Shadow Ball
Hurricane/Air Slash/Tera Blast
Nasty Plot

Did you guys know this thing natively gets Nasty Plot? I sure as hell didn't. Bulky NP set to just mess things up with your base 100 SpAtk. Drain can also be Leaf Storm for that extra punch.

70 Speed isn't much to work with. You speed tie Breloom, and outpace the following Pokemon; Kingambit, Skeledirge, Azumarill, Amoonguss, Clodsire, Corviknight, Dondozo, Garganacl, Hatterene, Orthworm, Pelipper, Ting-Lu, Torkoal, and Toxapex.
Low/No Speed investment Pokemon you can outpace with investment: Gholdengo, Ceruledge, Armarouge, Unboosted Great Tusk, Glimmora, Unboosted Baxcalibur, Unboosted Dragonite, Rotom Appliances.
That's an interesting set of Pokemon that Jolly Invested Decidueye can outpace. Most of them are Pokemon that either don't care about you, or already answer you to a decent degree.
 
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For anybody having a hard time with WW offensive sun teams, my favourite method recently to progress has been to expoit how hard Torkoal gets walled by some mons behind Substitute (my favourite being Skeledirge and Dragapult, haven't tried Garg in place of Protect but probably redundant). Since these teams rarely have a defensive backbone, the opposing sun player is often forced to both loose momentum and take considerable damage
 
For anybody having a hard time with WW offensive sun teams, my favourite method recently to progress has been to expoit how hard Torkoal gets walled by some mons behind Substitute (my favourite being Skeledirge and Dragapult, haven't tried Garg in place of Protect but probably redundant). Since these teams rarely have a defensive backbone, the opposing sun player is often forced to both loose momentum and take considerable damage
I love leading Dirge into Tork. It's free real estate if they don't have EP.
 

Soiramio3000

Banned deucer.
Nice comparison, but you sort of forgot this one move Cycli had that was the main reason it was viable and Decid is completely lacking
people here on the forums have speculated that cyclizar may perform well in OU if shed-tail gets banned due to its ability for role compression.
anyway, I am not expecting decidueye to become a staple or something,not with these stats.
being a low budget cyclizar isn't thaaaaaat bad.

it may have a temporary niche right now until shed tail gets banned.

Edit:I switched the word supression to compression.
 
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people here on the forums have speculated that cyclizar may perform well in OU if shed-tail gets banned due to its ability for role supresion.
anyway, I am not expecting decidueye to become a staple or something,not with these stats.
being a low budget cyclizar isn't thaaaaaat bad.

it may have a temporary niche right now until shed tail gets banned.
I think you mean role compression. Pretty sure role suppression isn't a thing.

Honestly, I don't see Decid being OU at all. UU at best, but definitely not OU worthy.
 
people here on the forums have speculated that cyclizar may perform well in OU if shed-tail gets banned due to its ability for role supresion.
anyway, I am not expecting decidueye to become a staple or something,not with these stats.
being a low budget cyclizar isn't thaaaaaat bad.

it may have a temporary niche right now until shed tail gets banned.
Regenerator is the key to theorymon utility Cyclizar, allowing it to laugh at chip damage. Also, stellar speed is a big edge.
 
people here on the forums have speculated that cyclizar may perform well in OU if shed-tail gets banned due to its ability for role supresion.
anyway, I am not expecting decidueye to become a staple or something,not with these stats.
being a low budget cyclizar isn't thaaaaaat bad.

it may have a temporary niche right now until shed tail gets banned.
Knock off and rapid spin in one mon is nice, but we already have Tusk for that, and unlike Cyclizar Tusk can threat Gholdengo if tries to spin block.
 
Knock off and rapid spin in one mon is nice, but we already have Tusk for that, and unlike Cyclizar Tusk can threat Gholdengo if tries to spin block.
That "speculation" is made on the grounds that non-Shed Tail Cyclizar is essentially a mini-TornT, being just a really fast Regen UTurn spammer with additional utility in Knock and removal. It's got way worse offensive potential, an overall worse type for the job and really there's only one TornT set it somewhat copies in the first place but it's a bit more than just "Knock+Spin good".

To come back to Decid though... it has no Regen and no high speed and considering both of those are like the main reason the set works the comparison is still dogshit lol. Though the combo is currently unique in OU, KnockTurn+removal isn't a free pass into being viable if you lack other good qualities. The only sort of niche I see Decidueye having is spinblocking Tusk with slowpivoting, and I doubt that set would even run Defog since removing all hazards on the field kind of defeats the point of spinblocking in the first place.
 
Tried Decid tonight in a few games. Found it to be rather mid when playing a mixed set. The funny thing is that it shafts Gambit and Moon super hard, and can stone wall Grimmsnarls that don't have an attacking move... But outside of that, it feels super mediocre. Even against itself.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
people here on the forums have speculated that cyclizar may perform well in OU if shed-tail gets banned due to its ability for role compression.
anyway, I am not expecting decidueye to become a staple or something,not with these stats.
being a low budget cyclizar isn't thaaaaaat bad.

it may have a temporary niche right now until shed tail gets banned.

Edit:I switched the word supression to compression.
I think Cyclizar wouldn't be bad in OU if Shed Tail got banned, but it has pretty terrible bulk 70 Base HP, 65 Base Defense and Special Defense. I think it would be borderline when it came to OU Usage and would probably be a UU staple. Though the Shift Gear Sweeper set wouldn't be bad.
 
decidueye sucks, but if anyone was to run it or build with it this is the set i would use:

Decidueye @ Leftovers
Ability: Long Reach
Tera Type: Water/Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 116 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
- Defog
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Grass Knot
(speed investment is to outspeed no investment tusk)

116+ SpA Decidueye Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 524-620 (120.7 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
116+ SpA Decidueye Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 246-290 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
116+ SpA Decidueye Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 450-530 (89.2 - 105.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
also blows up those gastrodons that are being run exclusively to counter wake right now

alternatively, just dont use it
 
decidueye sucks, but if anyone was to run it or build with it this is the set i would use:

Decidueye @ Leftovers
Ability: Long Reach
Tera Type: Water/Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 116 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
- Defog
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Grass Knot
(speed investment is to outspeed no investment tusk)

116+ SpA Decidueye Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 524-620 (120.7 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
116+ SpA Decidueye Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 246-290 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
116+ SpA Decidueye Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 450-530 (89.2 - 105.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
also blows up those gastrodons that are being run exclusively to counter wake right now

alternatively, just dont use it
The set I was testing with was a mixed set, akin to Lead Meowscarada.

:decidueye: @ Expert Belt
Hasty Nature | Tera Dark
Long Reach
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 6 SpAtk
Leaf Storm
Spirit Shackles
Knock Off
Low Kick

Even without CB, Low Kick absolutely drops Gambit and Moon that don't have a screen up, Tera Dark allows you to completely stuff Lead Grimmsnarl and turn Weakness hitting Dark/Ghost moves into Resisted hits. Storm just nukes anything named Tusk, Gastro, Quag, and Quaq. Decent matchup against Gholdengo too, unless they commited Tera on it.
 
I wanna talk about this guy for a bit.



Skeledirge @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA / 40 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Torch Song
- Shadow Ball
- Slack Off

This thing here is my anti-meta Pokemon, and my suggestion to you for a lot of common stuff in this metagame. Salt Cure breaks the Substitute in two hits, so if it comes down to it you will be able to stall out all of Salt Cure's uses and come out of it with 4 subs left, while still being able to boost with Torch Song intermittently. Tera Flying is used because it beats Earthquake/Curse Garg sets, completely stonewalls Clodsire, and drops the Dark weakness while still keeping resistances to Grass for Meow and Fighting for Tusk. Something else fun you can do is lock Walking Wake into a move to hit you and break the sub, then switch out to a resist once it happens. Running Will-o-Wisp in the fourth slot and going for Sp.Def investment instead also works, but I prefer the reliable healing to stay in as long as possible and be as annoying as the game will let me.

Good matchups for this thing:

Hatterene is slower, so as long as you sub up first thing, Nuzzle is a free turn for you. Calm Mind gets ignored, Psyshock hits the defense stat it would rather not, and Draining Kiss gets resisted.
Garganacl loses outright no matter what set it has. You can freely switch in to anything that isn't Salt Cure or Earthquake, and once you're in, there's nothing it can do to you. Earthquake loses completely after Tera, and Body Press loses no matter what. Salt Cure can't break your sub in one hit, so Salt Cure will run out of PP first. (Also, Covert Cloak is not used since you want to bring this thing in on a turn when Garg is boosting or setting up rocks or whatever, then have it stay in for a long time to benefit from the passive recovery.)
Clodsire gets into a complete stalemate with this thing, as long as it's Unaware. If Dirge is Terastallized and behind a sub, there's nothing it can do to the Dirge. The opponent has to commit to PP stalling or switching out and trying something else.
Amoonguss can't break your sub in one hit unless it's with Sludge Bomb after you Terastallize, so Spore isn't a concern and you can generally just spam Torch Song with impunity.
Dragonite needs Earthquake or Choice Specs to break your sub cleanly. After Tera, its Extreme Speed can't break your sub unless it goes Tera Normal. From there it's just a matter of time before you Torch Song it to oblivion.
Corviknight can't touch you, but that's nothing new. However, it's notable because its Brave Bird can't break your sub, so this thing just becomes the most free setup you can imagine, besides Garg.

Matchups Dirge can win but only after Tera/already having a sub up/prior Torch Song boosts:

Great Tusk is an easy switch-in case. This can be prediction-reliant because of Headlong Rush and Knock Off, but if you know it's going to use Rapid Spin, switching in Skeledirge and then Terastallizing as you put up a sub can put you in a very strong position that Tusk can't deal with well besides clicking Knock Off over and over, which is another two hit break.
Volcarona requires some prior setup since it can hit hard, but since only a super effective Tera Blast has the potential to OHKO Dirge, you can expect to be able to fire back with two-three hits of your own. If you're already boosted or have a sub to hide behind for one of its hits, you can take down Volcarona before it gets you.
Meowscarada wants to take a hit from this thing as much as Dirge wants to take a hit from it. You only need a +1 boost for a guaranteed OHKO against it, and its Banded Knock Off is only a 2HKO against you, so after a bit of setup you can duel it effectively.

Matchups Dirge wants to avoid:

Rotom-Wash is the truest counter to this thing. Fire resistance, hits it super effectively before and after Terastallizing, special attacker, will throw out a Thunder Wave the moment it gets a chance. Avoid this matchup at all costs unless you're confident you're boosted enough for Shadow Ball to OHKO.
Roaring Moon has Dark STAB and high Sp.Def, and the option for a Protosynthesis-boosted Attack that Unaware won't stop. Unless you've opted for Will-o-Wisp instead of Slack Off and you're already behind a sub, this thing will eat your hits and then eat you.
Ceruledge has a 50/50 on being immune to Fire, and has the Sp.Def to shrug off a few Shadow Balls. If it Terastallizes into something without a Ghost weakness, you're probably going to break before it does since you can't boost unless you already know it's a Weak Armor set, and it will heal itself as it hits you.

Thoughts? Suggestions? I'm not much for EV optimization so if I can hit some thresholds I don't know about for Defense and put more elsewhere I'd like to know.
 
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Soiramio3000

Banned deucer.
Anyway, I admit it.
Decidueye is not a good pokemon and will never have a place in OU.
(At least not during this gen, it may get some busted move/ability in the future).
 
I wanna talk about this guy for a bit.



Skeledirge @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA / 40 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Torch Song
- Shadow Ball
- Slack Off

This thing here is my anti-meta Pokemon, and my suggestion to you for a lot of common stuff in this metagame. Salt Cure breaks the Substitute in two hits, so if it comes down to it you will be able to stall out all of Salt Cure's uses and come out of it with 4 subs left, while still being able to boost with Torch Song intermittently. Tera Flying is used because it beats Earthquake/Curse Garg sets, completely stonewalls Clodsire, and drops the Dark weakness while still keeping resistances to Grass for Meow and Fighting for Tusk. Something else fun you can do is lock Walking Wake into a move to hit you and break the sub, then switch out to a resist once it happens. Running Will-o-Wisp in the fourth slot and going for Sp.Def investment instead also works, but I prefer the reliable healing to stay in as long as possible and be as annoying as the game will let me.

Good matchups for this thing:

Hatterene is slower, so as long as you sub up first thing, Nuzzle is a free turn for you. Calm Mind gets ignored, Psyshock hits the defense stat it would rather not, and Draining Kiss gets resisted.
Garganacl loses outright no matter what set it has. You can freely switch in to anything that isn't Salt Cure or Earthquake, and once you're in, there's nothing it can do to you. Earthquake loses completely after Tera, and Body Press loses no matter what. Salt Cure can't break your sub in one hit, so Salt Cure will run out of PP first. (Also, Covert Cloak is not used since you want to bring this thing in on a turn when Garg is boosting or setting up rocks or whatever, then have it stay in for a long time to benefit from the passive recovery.)
Clodsire gets into a complete stalemate with this thing, as long as it's Unaware. If Dirge is Terastallized and behind a sub, there's nothing it can do to the Dirge. The opponent has to commit to PP stalling or switching out and trying something else.
Amoonguss can't break your sub in one hit unless it's with Sludge Bomb after you Terastallize, so Spore isn't a concern and you can generally just spam Torch Song with impunity.
Dragonite needs Earthquake or Choice Specs to break your sub cleanly. After Tera, its Extreme Speed can't break your sub unless it goes Tera Normal. From there it's just a matter of time before you Torch Song it to oblivion.
Corviknight can't touch you, but that's nothing new. However, it's notable because its Brave Bird can't break your sub, so this thing just becomes the most free setup you can imagine, besides Garg.

Matchups Dirge can win but only after Tera/already having a sub up/prior Torch Song boosts:

Great Tusk is an easy switch-in case. This can be prediction-reliant because of Headlong Rush and Knock Off, but if you know it's going to use Rapid Spin, switching in Skeledirge and then Terastallizing as you put up a sub can put you in a very strong position that Tusk can't deal with well besides clicking Knock Off over and over, which is another two hit break.
Volcarona requires some prior setup since it can hit hard, but since only a super effective Tera Blast has the potential to OHKO Dirge, you can expect to be able to fire back with two-three hits of your own. If you're already boosted or have a sub to hide behind for one of its hits, you can take down Volcarona before it gets you.
Meowscarada wants to take a hit from this thing as much as Dirge wants to take a hit from it. You only need a +1 boost for a guaranteed OHKO against it, and its Banded Knock Off is only a 2HKO against you, so after a bit of setup you can duel it effectively.

Matchups Dirge wants to avoid:

Rotom-Wash is the truest counter to this thing. Fire resistance, hits it super effectively before and after Terastallizing, special attacker, will throw out a Thunder Wave the moment it gets a chance. Avoid this matchup at all costs unless you're confident you're boosted enough for Shadow Ball to OHKO.
Roaring Moon has Dark STAB and high Sp.Def, and the option for a Protosynthesis-boosted Attack that Unaware won't stop. Unless you've opted for Will-o-Wisp instead of Slack Off and you're already behind a sub, this thing will eat your hits and then eat you.
Ceruledge has a 50/50 on being immune to Fire, and has the Sp.Def to shrug off a few Shadow Balls. If it Terastallizes into something without a Ghost weakness, you're probably going to break before it does since you can't boost unless you already know it's a Weak Armor set, and it will heal itself as it hits you.

Thoughts? Suggestions? I'm not much for EV optimization so if I can hit some thresholds I don't know about for Defense and put more elsewhere I'd like to know.
You honestly aren't wrong. I've been enjoying the hell out of my own breed of Dirge -- specifically Sub 3 Attacks. It has a lot of really good matchups and can smoke a lot of Pokemon with ease.

:skeledirge: @ Leftovers
Modest Nature | Tera Fairy
Unaware
220 HP / 252 SpAtk / 32 SpDef / 4 Speed (Alt spread for 50/all battles: 196 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpAtk / 52 SpDef / 4 Speed)
Torch Song
Shadow Ball
Earth Power
Substitute

My Dirge build is an offensive Sub breed that makes use the of the magical 51/101 HP Subs. Strong enough to resist a hit from Night Shade/Seismic Toss/etc., and still having points to put elsewhere. 4 Speed allows you to outpace opposing uninvested Dirges, and 4 Def on the 50/all set is because of Lv50 EV jank.

I love using this thing to check Dragons, Gargs, Volcs, Cerus... Honestly, a good portion of setup Pokemon. It has a lot of good matchups, I just wish that rocks weren't such an issue.
Dengo, Tera Steel/Pokemon carrying Iron Head, Tera Water/Ground Volcarona, and being caught out without your Sub are the biggest threats to Dirge. But on the flip side, you sit on so many Pokemon it isn't even funny.
 

Soiramio3000

Banned deucer.
the results for the voting of waking wake are taking a little more than I expected.
any way.
there is no need to press the mods to hurry up.
 

1LDK

Trial by fury
is a Top Team Rater
Even if it gets banned, sun is still the best weather regardless
just because Chi-Yu is not here anymore doesn't mean the style dropped from viability

I wonder how the usage stats will be at the end of the month
 
the results for the voting of waking wake are taking a little more than I expected.
any way.
there is no need to press the mods to hurry up.
It's not the mods, it is the voters who have to put thier vote in the thread. You can't expect all the +130 persons who got reqs to login as soon as the votation started.

Even if it gets banned, sun is still the best weather regardless
just because Chi-Yu is not here
Sun kinda sucks because they don't have a good setter, Torkoal can be exploited easily and lacks a good pivot move so they need to run eject bottom Hatt to have a bit of momentum. That sucks because you kinda sacrifice Hatt in most match ups because you trade a good part of its heal while you bring another thing in. Making the match sometimes 4vs6.
 
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It's not the mods, it is the voters who have to put thier vote in the thread. You can't expect all the +130 persons who got reqs to login as soon as the votation started.


Sun kinda sucks because they don't have a good setter, Torkoal can be exploited easily and lacks a good pivot move so they need to run eject bottom Hatt to have a bit of momentum. That sucks because you kinda sacrifice Hatt in most match ups because you trade a good part of its heal while you bring another thing in. Making the match sometimes 4vs6.
So what I’m hearing is GF should give Torkoal Slack Off and U-Turn in the next generation.
Seriously though, Sun has always been a playstyle that trades off having to run less than perfect Pokémon (Torkoal, Ninetales) and compensates for it by having overwhelming offense. Does it work? Not consistently, typically, but it can. WW though really heightens the consistency of sun through its sheer power, yes it has checks and counters but it’s very existence makes sun a significant builder threat, I can’t see Sun being amazing w.o. It.
 
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