Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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So I'm gonna make a case for why Gholdengo is not broken and instead an extremely welcoming mon in the meta.

1: Hazard Stacking is good for the meta. Sure it promotes some HO but I'd say as soon as the truly broken stuff is gone (Palafin, Bundle, D-Nite etc) that, that will stop being the normal. It instead promotes offense to be much better than in S@S which like it or hate it was one of the more slow and defensive metas of all time. A change from previous metas is a good thing and keeps playing competitive pokemon fresh. Also it reminds me more of DPP/BW with actual spin blockers. I think it's great to not just be able to send in a Corviknight and instantly get rid of all hazards all the time and it makes you think more.

2: Air Balloon is not busted. Here's the problem with people saying the Airbaloon set makes it impossible to spin. On 99% of these teams Gholdengo is the only Ghost and more importantly the only Steel type. That means it regularly needs to switch in to take hits being one of the few defensive mons on a team, which means that Air balloon is gone usually on the first or second turn it comes in and then nearly every spinner in the game can beat it, it's also weak to spikes after Air balloon is popped which destroys the amount of things it can switch in on. And most defogger carry U-Turn which again pops Air-Baloon easily and makes it easy to take out.

3: 3 You can't run every set at once. People are saying Air Baloon is busted or that Specs beats its checks or that Scarf allowes it to things that outspeed it, or that nasty plot makes it a great sweeper and pull all the calcs out but it can't run all the sets at once. And it's relatively easy to beat all it's sets.

Air Baloon NP, it's easy to pop the baloon and then any ground type move/Dark or ghost type move will kill and universe Gholdengo.

Specs, it's slow even with max speed and is easily killed by a lot of mons. while 120 power Stab move is strong steel is a pretty terrible offensive type and it gets locked into a move that lowers its SPA. While shadow ball is spammable, there are a lot of great dark types in the tier and even normal types that can switch in and then use it as setup fodder.

Scarf: It lacks the power that the other two have. It's still outsped by nearly every booster energy mon. It stills has the choice problems of specs meaning lots of stuff can switch in on it. And it's still even outsped even after scarf by the likes of Pao. It also becomes complete setup/switch in fodder for Chi-Yu which is one of the scariest things in the game to let in for free.

Gholdengo is not broken via stats, movepool nor ability. It's an amazing pokemon both offensively, defensively and the best spinblocker pokemon has ever seen but it is not broken and the playstyke it enables is not broken either, rather some of the mons in it are and it eccentuates there brokenness. But it is completely beatable by spinners and by teams and should absolutely remain in the tier.
 

churine

lunatic+
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:masquerain:
Masquerain @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Icy Wind
- Bug Buzz
- Hurricane

i think masquerain has somewhat of a use in this meta given that its the fastest webs setter in the meta right now and the only webs setter currently that isnt complete dogwater like the other two (spidops kricketune). masquerain also has intimidate which is always handy to weaken damage output for its teammates and it comes prepped with icy wind, making it able to further support its teammates by slowing down the opposing lead first turn before setting webs for example, though you risk the five percent miss here. id say masq has some midgame use due to intimidate and a ground immunity but this is kind of stretching it lol it wishes it was 90 speed in particular. im not really here to talk abut just masquerain though. no, the main reason im here to talk about masquerain is that it received probably the best teammate for any hazard stacking playstyle period, that being gholdengo.
everyone is aware of gholdengo now but this mon stuffs almost any attempts at removing hazards, ability blocks defog such as that from corviknight, its ghost/steel type is not only amazing defensively but also makes a double spinblocker now with blocking rapid spin and the new mortal spin from glimmora, and on top of that, it is an amazing webs abuser. it can run air balloon to give the paradox donphans a harder time but ive also just obliterated so many with the choice specs set. another great abuser, pun intended, is greattusk, which can not only abuse its amazing stabs as it outspeeds many mons under webs but also it can knock boots or items off, spin away enemy hazards, and even set its own rocks though it will have to drop one of those moves. theres also amazing setup sweepers that not only have their capability bolstered by webs but also by other supportive means like cyclizar shed tail. my favorite one is currently belly drum cetitan with slowking and cyclizar, but theres definitely lots of other setup mons that you can slap on a webs team such as dragonite, palafin (before we ban it), annihilape, and lots more. webs is a playstyle that i dont see lot of people experimenting with right now, likely due to lack of the more common setters, but i think is a playstyle that hugely benefits from gholdengo existing. maybe if it doesnt get banned this slate we will see it on webs more commonly.

:masquerain: :gholdengo: +4
 
We tier for the sake of finding a competitive metagame, not to maximize the “flavor” which varies in the eye of every individual beholder anyway.

Personally, I think there are dozens of unique aspects about SV OU that are not replicated anywhere else and I cherish them all. But sometimes things have to be removed to make games more playable.
More like to make stall survive at all cost because that's the only kind of play the members of the Small Council love
Toxapex has been insufferable and overcentralizing in both Gen 7 and Gen 8 and yet was never banned.....curious
 
More like to make stall survive at all cost because that's the only kind of play the members of the Small Council love
Toxapex has been insufferable and overcentralizing in both Gen 7 and Gen 8 and yet was never banned.....curious
I agree that Toxapex sucks and has made OU pretty unfun for a while but the idea that everyone in the council is on a mission to preserve stall at all costs is silly
 

ninth

I FEEL LIKE FLYGON
is a Community Contributor
More like to make stall survive at all cost because that's the only kind of play the members of the Small Council love
Toxapex has been insufferable and overcentralizing in both Gen 7 and Gen 8 and yet was never banned.....curious
1) I don't know if a mon that folds to Ground, Electric, and Psychic, three of the most common attacking types, can be considered overcentralizing. You'll usually naturally end up with a Pex check if you built a Gen 8 team without thinking about it. This is distinct from something like Dracovish, where if you don't bring a Water Absorb mon (such a specific niche that it made Seismitoad OU for a bit) you just get 6-0ed.

2) I also don't know if they do love stall! That would be a weird thing for all these different people to gravitate towards. I can attest that two of them do not love stall: I've used a variety of ausma teams and none of them have been stall. Also I went through a thirty-minute Finch video and not one of the teams was stall.
 

658Greninja

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More like to make stall survive at all cost because that's the only kind of play the members of the Small Council love
Toxapex has been insufferable and overcentralizing in both Gen 7 and Gen 8 and yet was never banned.....curious
mfers on their way to say “Smogon loves Stall” for the 500th time in a row.

Broken Offensive threats ironically forces you to run defensive fatmons just to deal with them.

Clef for Darkfu

Pex for Mosa back in SM

Toad for Vish

Ttar for the broken ahh psychics running Gen 5

How bout the time people used fucking defensive Snarl Hydreigon just for Spectrier?

You see what I mean? I don’t wanna hear another “Smogon loves Stall” when Iron Bundle is forcing you to run Blissey or any other fatmon
 
Back in my day if you wanted to keep your hazards on the field you switched in a ghost type.

You kids and your Defog + Boots. So spoiled. My generation had to Rapid Spin uphill both ways in the permanent Sandstorm while stepping all over Stealth Rocks, only to get blocked by fucking Rotom every time if you were lucky, Subsplit Gengar if you weren't.

Now the cycle is complete, and Defog can be blocked. You too must suffer like the elders once did. Welcome back to gen 4 mother fuckers.
 
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I have begun trying out Eviolite Primeape in response to the belief that Rage Fist is only good on Annihilape. I would encourage others to do the same. It's not a pervasive threat like Annihilape, but it definitely can put dents into teams. I think it's carried by the shock value, that people who dont know how to deal with Annihilape would have been beaten by Eviolite Primeape anyways.

I don't have enough information to determine whether Annihilape or Rage Fist is the problem, but I do have enough information to know that one of the two needs to go.
 
You're missing the point, we all know last respects is broken, because we’re not dumb.

to Ban something you need hard game evidence, all the game evidence we have right now just proves houndstone is broken because it’s the only mon with the move. If it’s evidence of something else using the move we can ban last respect instead, but that evidence doesn’t exist right now.

Its like a murder getting found not guilty because while we all are pretty sure they did it, it’s no actual proof that they did it the judge, both lawyers, the jury all know he’s guilty it’s just no REAL evidence.
This would make perfect sense if we didn't ban both cover legendaries before the game was even playable on smogon so this argument just doesn't make sense
 

ninth

I FEEL LIKE FLYGON
is a Community Contributor
There's only ever been one cover legendary remotely considered for being allowed in OU (Zamazenta-C), right? I'm not sure what's going on here. UPDATE: I was spreading misinformation, Suicune and Kyurem-B too.

Also I kind of get why they're wary of banning the move before Legion comes out...remember Play Rough Koko and Expanding Force Lele? Datamines have been wrong or changed before, so you can't rely on them being real
 
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There's only ever been one cover legendary remotely considered for being allowed in OU (Zamazenta-C), right? I'm not sure what's going on here.

Also I kind of get why they're wary of banning the move before Legion comes out...remember Play Rough Koko and Expanding Force Lele? Datamines have been wrong or changed before, so you can't rely on them being real
Technically Kyurem Black was a cover legend I'm pretty sure

Ended up getting banned anyway but still lol
 
My opinion on the quick ban situation is to ban Iron Bundle, Palafin, and Shed Tail. After that I think they should deal with the Terra question before doing anything else and then after that do suspects if anything else pops up as potentially broken. I think Terra will ultimately need to be banned because I agree that it seems like it could be impossible to build any kind of stable or consistent meta with the mechanic in play.

Id definitely be open to seeing Palafin reintroduced briefly after a new content drop if there is a terra ban. You could maybe retest Shed Tail, but its effects on gameplay are egregious enough that Id rather see it stay gone. Iron Bundle just seems like a clear uber mon and I don't see a point in retesting it. I wouldn't be sad if they never retested Palafin cuz it probably wouldn't last anyways, but I could see a small possibility that it loses enough power and versatility without access to defensive Terras or double water stabs.

My guess is for the council vote is that they quick ban Iron Bundle and Palafin.
 
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