Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
My opinion on the quick ban situation is to ban Iron Bundle, Palafin, and Shed Tail. After that I think they should deal with the Terra question before doing anything else and then after that do suspects if anything else pops up as potentially broken. I think Terra will ultimately need to be banned because I agree that it seems like it could be impossible to build any kind of stable or consistent meta with the mechanic in play.

Id definitely be open to seeing Palafin reintroduced briefly after a new content drop if there is a terra ban. You could maybe retest Shed Tail, but its effects on gameplay are egregious enough that Id rather see it stay gone. Iron Bundle just seems like a clear uber mon and I don't see a point in retesting it. I wouldn't be sad if they never retested Palafin cuz it probably wouldn't last anyways, but I could see a small possibility that it loses enough power and versatility without access to defensive Terras or double water stabs.

My guess is for the council vote is that they quick ban Iron Bundle and Palafin.
Bundle and palafin then wait a few weeks before going to next steps. Shed tail is fine and tera should make two formats so that way the player base can enjoy a new gen imo but that’s my take on it.
 
Why I believe Annihilape/Rage fist to be broken in SV OU.

-Annihilape has a type combination whose stabs no pokemon resists outside of certain Tera Garganacls.

-Annihilape has no real or safe defensive counterplay, as even dedicated sets seem to be defeated by different Annihilape sets. Dondozo loses to it as after being taunted, annihilape will keep getting rage fist base power boosted and get out of control. Attempts at double switching between unaware pokemon forever fail as the combination of drain punch and taunt prevents healing and eventually results in the death of both unaware pokemon. Dedicated Tera flying Gholdengo sets fail to wall it, as it requires teammates to never hit annihilape throughout the corse of the game which is unrealistic, the same happens with tera fighting resist Garganacl, which can not touch it if it comes in on cyclizar substitute or if it is a substitute variant itself, Will-o-wisp Talonflame loses to Bulk up rest variants.

-Annihilape completely invalidates stall as a playstyle, Punishes Balance for relying on slowking as a means of bringing breakers and offensive counterplay safely, itcan easily outplay sun and offense match-up with a surprise tera water after setting up, which when paired with its investment in Special Defense, allows it eat to eat a Specs Chi-Yu Overheat in sun and Drain punch back to full, it takes an Iron Valiant Moonblast ko-ing it with rage fist, a specs Dragapult Shadow Ball or even a Specs Iron Bundle Hydro Pump when it doesnt predict it to tera and gets drain punched to oblivion as Annihilape gets back to full and proceeds to sweep.
The list just goes on, but for me the funniest damage roll I had against it was modest gholdengo shadow ball with 0 spa dealing 49% damage.

-How could we ban Houndstone which had a broken move that required your entire team to be dead to be usable and would be walled by normal types outside of tera fighting, but not annihilape which has stab fighting to hit the Pokemon that resist rage fist and merely requires you to hit him throughout any turn of the game, the only edge Houndstone had over Annihilape was sand rush, which required further team support, while annihilape can be ran on any playstyle.

In conclusion, Annihilape has a lot of things going for it that make it broken in its current state, with the most important factor being Rage Fist´s astronomical base power, being a move that completely changes competitive pokemon as we know it, as stat changes reset after switching out but not Rage Fist´s BP. I really hope that smogon suspects this pokemon in case it does not get banned by the council, as it is a really oppressive force in the metagame right now.

Thank you for your attention!
 
Last edited:
Evidently our tier is addictive enough for you to make a fresh alt just to post about it.

Also last I checked 2 isn’t a dozen, but go off
It's my first account actually
But yeah I guess you're right
My only other options if I want to play with the new pokemon besides this tier are either buying the game/buying a PC strong enough to emulate the game/fighting against teams of 6 Arceus in AG
And none of these are satisfying to me, so I guess I'll just abid by your abitrary rules that exist to save Toxapex from being KO'd
 
Why I believe Annihilape/Rage fist to be broken in SV OU.

-Annihilape has a type combination whose stabs no pokemon resists outside of certain Tera Garganacls.

-Annihilape has no real or safe defensive counterplay, as even dedicated sets seem to be defeated by different Annihilape sets. Dondozo loses to it as after being taunted, annihilape will keep getting rage fist base power boosted and get out of control. Attempts at double switching between unaware pokemon forever fail as the combination of drain punch and taunt prevents healing and eventually results in the death of both unaware pokemon. Dedicated Tera flying Gholdengo sets fail to wall it, as it requires teammates to never hit annihilape throughout the corse of the game which is unrealistic, the same happens with tera fighting resist Garganacl, which can not touch it if it comes in on cyclizar substitute or if it is a substitute variant itself, Will-o-wisp Talonflame loses to Bulk up rest variants.

-Annihilape completely invalidates stall as a playstyle, Punishes Balance for relying on slowking as a means of bringing breakers and offensive counterplay safely, itcan easily outplay sun and offense match-up with a surprise tera water after setting up, which when paired with its investment in Special Defense, allows it eat to eat a Specs Chi-Yu Overheat in sun and Drain punch back to full, it takes an Iron Valiant Moonblast ko-ing it with rage fist, a specs Dragapult Shadow Ball or even a Specs Iron Bundle Hydro Pump when it doesnt predict it to tera and gets drain punched to oblivion as Annihilape gets back to full and proceeds to sweep.
The list just goes on, but for me the funniest damage roll I had against it was modest gholdengo with 0 spa dealing 49% damage.

-How could we ban Houndstone which had a broken move that required your entire team to be dead to be usable and would be walled by normal types outside of tera fighting, but not annihilape which has stab fighting to hit the Pokemon that resist rage fist and merely requires you to hit him throughout any turn of the game, the only edge Houndstone had over Annihilape was sand rush, which required further team support, while annihilape can be ran on any playstyle.

In conclusion, Annihilape has a lot of things going for it that make it broken in its current state, with the most important factor being Rage Fist´s astronomical base power, being a move that completely changes competitive pokemon as we know it, as stat changes reset after switching out but not Rage Fist´s BP. I really hope that smogon suspects this pokemon in case it does not get banned by the council, as it is a really oppressive force in the metagame right now.

Thank you for your attention!

This Pokemon is broken, it invalidates certain playstyles by default, enhancing match-up fishing and can not be answered in the majority of teams despite its predictability since at this point we know what it
Couldn’t you use special attacks to avoid the rage fist boost? I would give this Pokemon time before we jump to more bans.
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
It's my first account actually
But yeah I guess you're right
My only other options if I want to play with the new pokemon besides this tier are either buying the game/buying a PC strong enough to emulate the game/fighting against teams of 6 Arceus in AG
And none of these are satisfying to me, so I guess I'll just abid by your abitrary rules that exist to save Toxapex from being KO'd
We ban things for the sake of preserving a competitive metagame, not for Toxapex or any conspiracy you’ve seen or subscribed to or said.

Both bans so far are pretty unanimous (literally unanimous votes, too) and make far more new Pokemon usable by lifting the restrictive nature of those Pokemon than anything else.

I am sorry you can’t play with some of your potential favorite Pokémon and I want you to have fun, but these things happen for a reason, not because of some agenda or bias. I invest a lot of time along with others to try and make this game competitive and enjoyable!
 

Z Strats

Banned deucer.
It's my first account actually
But yeah I guess you're right
My only other options if I want to play with the new pokemon besides this tier are either buying the game/buying a PC strong enough to emulate the game/fighting against teams of 6 Arceus in AG
And none of these are satisfying to me, so I guess I'll just abid by your abitrary rules that exist to save Toxapex from being KO'd
Just play ubers if you actually care and aren't trolling dude it sounds more what you're looking for
 
This new gen has been pretty crazy so far!
I've been getting back into competitive pokemon, as I usually do when a new generation is out/when there's a big roster update, and it's been pretty fun. I appreciate Game Freak going out of its way to add some interesting new mechanics and NOT putting them on "Scrimblo Bimblo, the loveable NU mascot". Even if Palafin is completely busted, I really love the creativity for its ability and I'm happy to at least have used it before its inevitable ban. Still wish they would have replaced Freeze with Frostbite, would have been way more competitive but what can you do.

I've been trying to make Hatterene work recently, which is hard to do in a tier where ghost types are so prevalent. Magic Bounce is a great niche when hazard stacking is super viable but I gotta find better ways to use her instead of just its old Calm Mind set. Any tips or ideas for sets or good teammates?
 
It's my first account actually
But yeah I guess you're right
My only other options if I want to play with the new pokemon besides this tier are either buying the game/buying a PC strong enough to emulate the game/fighting against teams of 6 Arceus in AG
And none of these are satisfying to me, so I guess I'll just abid by your abitrary rules that exist to save Toxapex from being KO'd
Or you could just play the Battle Stadium Singles ladder on Showdown.
 
can't believe that, in the year of our lord and savoir, 2022, we are still needing to explain to people that shit will get banned because we want a competitive meta. on a competitive site. shocking.

also, @ the post regarding some sort of "gentleman's agreement" on tera by M24 - no. this fails on 3 fronts:

1. it fails to address the problem you suggest it solves, that of unpredictability: you cannot know which type of tera your opponent is going to choose in the builder, of which there are countless combinations. furthermore, you cannot know when your opponent is going to tera & on which mon.
2. this inevitably will lead to a heavily matchup-dependant metagame, with volatile swings based around tera, thus decreasing its competitiveness. you cannot build with around tera adequately, no more than you can really play around it.
3. tera is broken (as in, overwhelmingly strong) in its own right, and this suggestion does nothing to address this or the fact that it provides near-limitless methods of breaching otherwise would-be checks, or the general power level it affords any pokemon.
 
We ban things for the sake of preserving a competitive metagame, not for Toxapex or any conspiracy you’ve seen or subscribed to or said.

Both bans so far are pretty unanimous (literally unanimous votes, too) and make far more new Pokemon usable by lifting the restrictive nature of those Pokemon than anything else.

I am sorry you can’t play with some of your potential favorite Pokémon and I want you to have fun, but these things happen for a reason, not because of some agenda or bias. I invest a lot of time along with others to try and make this game competitive and enjoyable!
I remember being 15 and thinking Smogon was a bunch of ban nazis. Literally my exact words, and all of those words were dumb. Ironically those words got me banned. Fucking ban nazis.

Now almost 20 years later my main criticism of Smogon was how little they ban. How the tables have turntabled.
 
Last edited:

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
It's my first account actually
But yeah I guess you're right
My only other options if I want to play with the new pokemon besides this tier are either buying the game/buying a PC strong enough to emulate the game/fighting against teams of 6 Arceus in AG
And none of these are satisfying to me, so I guess I'll just abid by your abitrary rules that exist to save Toxapex from being KO'd
You could also just not play Pokémon at all and go outside. It would do you some good.

I've been trying to make Hatterene work recently, which is hard to do in a tier where ghost types are so prevalent. Magic Bounce is a great niche when hazard stacking is super viable but I gotta find better ways to use her instead of just its old Calm Mind set. Any tips or ideas for sets or good teammates?
I was just thinking that Magic Bounce is an excellent thing to have in the current climate. Mega Absol would be eating really well right now if it still existed. But since it doesn’t, let’s focus on the Magic Bouncers that do. I’d think that Chi-Yu would make a good teammate for Hatterene, since it scares a lot of the Ghost-types and Steel-types in the tier right now. Annihilape’s a problem for both, but it’s a problem for everything else too, so for now we just have to learn to live with it.
 
can't believe that, in the year of our lord and savoir, 2022, we are still needing to explain to people that shit will get banned because we want a competitive meta. on a competitive site. shocking.

also, @ the post regarding some sort of "gentleman's agreement" on tera by M24 - no. this fails on 3 fronts:

1. it fails to address the problem you suggest it solves, that of unpredictability: you cannot know which type of tera your opponent is going to choose in the builder, of which there are countless combinations. furthermore, you cannot know when your opponent is going to tera & on which mon.
2. this inevitably will lead to a heavily matchup-dependant metagame, with volatile swings based around tera, thus decreasing its competitiveness. you cannot build with around tera adequately, no more than you can really play around it.
3. tera is broken (as in, overwhelmingly strong) in its own right, and this suggestion does nothing to address this or the fact that it provides near-limitless methods of breaching otherwise would-be checks, or the general power level it affords any pokemon.
4. Your opponent can still renege on it.
 
It's my first account actually
But yeah I guess you're right
My only other options if I want to play with the new pokemon besides this tier are either buying the game/buying a PC strong enough to emulate the game/fighting against teams of 6 Arceus in AG
And none of these are satisfying to me, so I guess I'll just abid by your abitrary rules that exist to save Toxapex from being KO'd
my guy really said I made my first account to regurgitate things my favorite content creator said as a joke but I took it seriously and also have no idea what it even means or what I'm talking about like gtfo bro your account was literally made to try to be antagonistic
 
I’m surprised that you are all sleeping on revival blessing. It revives on of your pokemon! Sure it only has 1 pp, but still, why isn’t it getting enough attention?
 
I only see two realistic bans happening at this time; Palafin and Iron Bundle. They’re clearly busted and beyond meta-warping regardless of Terastalizing, which i expect a suspect test of down the line, because Annihilape of all things is surely not running circles around the meta as it is without Tera. Aside from that, the meta should possibly settle by then until HOME.

I’m surprised that you are all sleeping on revival blessing. It revives on of your pokemon! Sure it only has 1 pp, but still, why isn’t it getting enough attention?
They don’t have it working right on Showdown. Once that gets implemented (in like a week tops methinks?) we’ll discuss Pawmot.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
4. Your opponent can still renege on it.
Yeah, if I were in any kind of (non-formal) battle on cartridge and there was a gentleman’s agreement on revealing your Tera types, I’d lie about every single one. I’m not a gentleman unless I’m on a date, and considering that I’m arguing about competitive Pokémon on the Smogon forums, you can tell exactly how often that happens.
 
A well timed super effective is pretty damaging for Annihilape, I really think it'll be less of a threat once/if tera ends up getting removed since outside of sloppy playing it isn't too unstoppable without tera.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrE
Yeah, if I were in any kind of (non-formal) battle on cartridge and there was a gentleman’s agreement on revealing your Tera types, I’d lie about every single one. I’m not a gentleman.
I mean, how is that different from reneging on something like Sleep Clause, or Evasion Clause, or... whatever else, really?

This isn't a case where you can hide the fact that you're cheating: the only way you can hide the fact that you lied about your Tera Types is by not terastalizing. After all, as soon as you use it, the opponent will know you lied.

The consequences of doing a Terastalize you lied about are the exact same as the consequences of Sporing multiple enemy mons or suddenly busting out Double Team or something else illegal.

I'm not saying that a "reveal Tera" clause is the correct choice, but I don't find this to be a compelling argument against it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 3)

Top