Metagame SV RU Metagame Discussion (April Shifts, see post #191)

[Elec-ant1234]

just as I was in the middle of downloading images smh

regardless big thanks!

 

[Ampha]

Ok so throwing out the opinions from new mons we got

Busted



If i'm being fair, I don't think any of these mons add anything overly positive for the tier, Mew is the jack of all trades we had on the past, and I dont think anything has changed for it to be less broken, Zarude is the case i've voiced my opinion on discord several times, Knock pretty much broke this thing really hard, as it can easily cripple its checks with knock and then just proceed to bully them later with boosted attacks or them just taking rocks(hey talonflame), Enamorus is kinda simple, too bulky, too strong and Drain kiss sets are kinda BS to take on
Mamoswine:

hmm

when your only resists are a PU mon and a fricking rotom heat, you know the thing is dire, add trailblaze to the mix and you get a insanely strong AND fast mon
Craw and Mienshao are p much the same thing they've done all life, spam CB/LO attacks with few drawbacks bc of their busted ass abilities and yeah
Regidrago is the same problem as before, if you are not using a fairy on your team, you are already in disadvantage, then add on to the fact that our best fairies are either A: offensive (mimikyu, gardevoir) B: weak to ground coverage (tinkaton, fezand) in which regidrago has ways to abuse both, I also dont think that adding random tera fairies to mons is gonna be healthy for the long term of meta, principally after enamo gets banned
last for not least, only one I think can prob continue for now but gets banned later, Hisui lilli, still does the same things but I dont really know how I feel about it rn, with 30 busted mons around
Really good but not quite busted (yet)



most people know what those do, but to resume off, most of them have really good attributes rn that I think can be pushed above limits on a more "free from brokens" meta, and imo we are gonna have to wait to see if they do really become busted or turn to be alright
Decent additions
and barras back
All likely pretty good mons which I think add something positive to the tier and have possibility to be good or top tier at some point, or at least decent in their own way, also mentioning barrask bc it was gone for 2 months only but we know its good
wanna explore later but waiting for now



mostly mons which I think are interesting in a way or another and want to test once meta settles down a bit, since they have one or another neat trait that could be used on the "busted less" meta

Bad and not that worthy if you ask me

not gonna post 90% of the PU mons but this category was more for 2 specific mons: and

I've also been vocal about this on RU cord but having no toxic, no seismic toss to speak off is simply too much for registeel to handle, its main ways of progressing through were both moves, and now they are gone, which makes regi kinda a one trick pony which is also mid on that, i dont think its niche less but I dont also think its RU material for this gen, prob gonna land on low B ranks for most of gen
Whism in other hand is just to tell ppl to not use this since its bad for ru level but always end falling as a ladder bait mon for some time

 

[FlamingoPokeman]

Yeah... just going through the Tiermaker I made is making me angry at how volatile this meta is.
I'm not too familiar with Smogon or PS! history and precedent, but my understanding is that a healthy tier is capable of using any team structure to success - last month, Hyper Offense was the best structure by a mile and got kicked out of the tier. This month, Hyper Offense came back better than ever with a litany of options dropped from the DLC2 and the release of previously banned mons such as and .

is broken and the fact that it's not already banned is emblematic of a tier that is in shambles after a DLC2 drop-fest. While this thing is on paper broken, it's worse in practice; Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Focus Sash, you name it Hoopa-U can use it to break anything and everything with a 160/170 Attack/Special Attack split that gives it coverage to break whatever wall you put it in front of it.
is the classic 'if I guess this set wrong in preview I lose, if I guess this set right in preview I lose'. It can do anything and everything to great success despite lack of recovery and enables teams to get loose with how they're built more. Tera gives it STAB Draining Kiss to be the best CM + ID abuser in the game.
is similar to Mew in that CM + ID is likely the best set and will cause headaches in a lot of matchups, but even Agility + 3 attacks is viable and it can speed creep even outside of rain at +2 without sacrificing much offensive presence. STAB Draining Kiss and the potential to Tera out of a weakness or status is probably enough to put it up there with Mew and just behind Hoopa-U in 'Holy Broken'.

I think is okay for the tier; while Rain remains the best weather after and AND leave it still has plenty of checks and balances that can slot into a lot of teams comfortably. I love me some and and think both of these, along with , and can keep rain in check.

, and pose huge threats as physical breakers that can snowball with a litany of setup AND immediate power at their disposal, but the tier is too in flux to say whether they're broken. Of the three, my opinion is that is the hardest to beat, although it lacks priority compared to the other two so we'll see how that works out.

, and are incredible threats with access to setup and reliable recovery, with the first two getting pivot options as well to keep momentum (not like HO needs that but WOW is that nuts). is a step below them in my opinion but that's largely because of the options available at Fairy right now; maybe with gone my opinion changes.

, , , and round out the Rain abusers. While these are all clearly below to me they're something to be mindful of - I still think it's manageable but can understand why the idea of this lineup plus looks threatening on paper.

From my (albeit limited) view, the best Physical / Special Attackers are ranked below, with each new line indicating a step between that tier and the above/below:

Physical Attackers:

- -
- - -
- - - - -
- - - -

Special Attackers:
(see the problem????)
-
- - -
- - -
- -

So, given all this, what could potentially be done? Well, Winter Seasonals is around the corner and more drops are likely in February (although some risers are expected too). Could the top-3 threats be quick banned, let a week go by and see what next round is needed for a few quick bans, then implement suspects that run through the early WS? Maybe, but that's questionable if the Council would want to do that.
I still think the tier got WAY too strong WAY too fast - looking back at old VR's and seeing A+ level stuff not even viable now is sad but expected in a new game with DLC's. I just think RU right now is too difficult to build in because there are 20+ legitimate sweepers that can run through teams and you CAN'T build around all of them. You will inevitably lose more games because of matchups than I've ever anticipated or seen in my brief history on PS! and would like to think this isn't normal, but who knows.

 

[Cuddly]

wanna explore later but waiting for now



mostly mons which I think are interesting in a way or another and want to test once meta settles down a bit, since they have one or another neat trait that could be used on the "busted less" meta

I think Hitmonlee might do better currently before Hoopa and Mamo are banned. With Terrain it outspeeds most of the metagame besides like Barraskewda and can OHKO so much between +2 CC, Knock Off, and Poison Jab. Very few Pokemon are 2HKO’d and only 1 is 3HKO’d from my findings (Gligar, a x4 weak to Ice Pokemon).
You can easily rampage through the tier with it and soften up everything that would otherwise pose as a roadblock.

 

[Feliburn]

Clear-cut most broken mon around. The damage output is unreal and you can legit run CB sets with Psychic to pick up the few mons that resist Hyperspace Hole like Cobalion and Tera Slowbro. Biggest saving grace is that any mon with U-turn just sends it to the Shadow Realm, but it's also incredibly easy to get in due to it's high Special Defense.



Kind of similar positions for me. Both are annoying users of Iron Defense, Calm Mind, Draining Kiss + 4th move (Stored Power for Mew, Earth Power for Enamorus). Personally, I've had more issues dealing with Mew than with Enamorus. The speed is big on a fat dual set up mon like this. Idk if Enamorus deserves a ban at the moment, but I want to treat it like Mew since they do the same thing, it's just that one does it faster and has a more threatening move that benefits from dual set up.

The hard hitters:



I see people talk about these mons a lot. I feel like Mienshao and Conkeldurr are a step above the other 2. Most Mamoswine sets I've seen are Loaded Dice + Trailblaze, which lacks the damage boosting item it'd like to actually threaten with its great coverage. While Crawdaunt has a more abusable typing + bulk for revenge killing, but still has the threatening Knock Off that it clicks for free.

I'm not sure how to feel about the rest of the tier. Even these 4 mons I just mentioned can change so much in terms of counterplay once the more broken components leave the tier.

 

[feen]

Early metagame thoughts: It's an absolute nightmare to build balance or defensive teams at this state, there are too many ridiculous mons to consider, and you cannot blanket-check all of them. I'll highlight some of the threats that are either absolutely broken or unhealthy for the metagame:

Hoopa-Unbound is broken, Band, Specs, Scarf, AV, and even Trick Room sets are all great and it is highly impossible to check all variants other than running Umbreon. Even then you have to either switch into a Drain Punch, and either A) Switch out and lose a lot of HP (especially with hazards on the field and also Lefties Umbreon > Boots Umbreon in the current meta), or B) Tera Poison, but that means you lose your tera slot and Hyperspace Fury will destroy you subsequently. Expecting a quick ban by the end of the week.

Enamorus-T is also ridiculous, the set in question is the CM+ID Draining Kiss with Tera Steel, it becomes unstoppable and single-handedly kills bulkier teams, where the only counterplay is Encore Tinkaton, but it is prone to being trapped by Magnezone and Enamorus running Earth Power makes it hard to switch in as well. I have tried other sets as well, CM + Moonblast + Mystical Fire + Earth Power hits ridiculously hard, and Healing Wish is also a great tech for it to run. The only drawback to Enamorus is that it does sometimes find problems switching in, especially since Slither Wing is resurging as a premier mon in the tier again, as well as defensive mons in the tier either have Toxic (Umbreon / Slowbro-Galar) or a pivoting move (Empoleon / Slither Wing). Nevertheless, it's ban-worthy.

I do not understand why the council decided to unban Mew (shoutouts to TheFranklin for being the only sane person). We have a metagame with so many offensive threats and absolute braindead mons and unbanning Mew just adds fuel to the fire. Especially on teams with a bunch of threats and a Mew in the back with Stored Power is going to clean. Not only that, lead Mew with Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Misty Explosion is a fantastic HO lead. Send it to the shadow realm where it belongs.

Another concern for the tier right now is the prevalence of Rain teams. Not only did we get Barraskewda back, but having Basculegion-F, and losing both Hippowdon and Tyranitar means one cannot fight it by changing the weather. Usually having bulky waters do the job vs Rain teams, but with the addition of Crawdaunt, as well as having Basculegion-F, they can easily blast through. While we do have Vileplume and Chesnaught as well, these can be pressured heavily by the aforementioned threat, as well as a Weather Ball Kilowattrel. Drizzle is very unhealthy in the meta right now and should be heavily looked at.

Reiterating what Ampha said above: I don't see Zarude, Crawdaunt, Mienshao, and Lilligant-Hisui being healthy in the tier at all. One can argue that you can check Lilligant-Hisui a bit better now with Vileplume / Fezandipiti / Slowbro-Galar, but offensively it is harder to check due to Iron Jugulis being gone. We know what Crawdaunt does and we know it's a nightmare to deal with. Mienshao with Regenerator is a fantastic pivot, but it is too strong and fast to be a healthy addition to the tier. Zarude with Swords Dance and also having U-Turn and Jungle Healing is pretty much a guessing game, and its risk-free Knock Off is too much for the tier.

I haven't seen much of Regidraco but it can easily snowball out of control due to how ridiculously strong it is, I can see it being overbearing after the first wave of bans.

Mamoswine is also very strong and pretty much has a tier without any resists for its STABs, but I think it's not downright banworthy yet, especially due to it being frail and not fast enough, as well as bulky Water-types such as Slowbro and Milotic check it.

Scrafty is another mon that is being slept on, DD Shed Skin is a nightmare and downright impossible to stop after a DD or two for balance teams, especially with Tera. With the tier lacking good defensive Ground-types, Tera Poison is excellent on it and it can easily sweep a lot of teams. I think it should be added to the slate for the first wave of bans.

Right now there are too many threats in the tier and teambuilding sanity is at an all-time low.

 

[Heni-san]

Hello -to get back to work with my beloved RU - here are my thoughts on certain drops!

Mew: Mew is just too strong. With too many sets it's hard to know what's coming. I played Storedpower with DKiss and was able to easily win any matchup without any problems. The ability to avoid a Krookodile or Hoopa Scarf with TeraFairy - being more durable with Tera Poison - allows Tera to be abused more than other Mons. No Brainer.

Hoopa: Even if it's clear what Hoopa is doing - attack! - it is actually flexible enough to use many different sets. These absurd attacking stats make it almost impossible to have a healthy switch in. The speed is enough to outspeed resisted switch ins. No Brainer.

Rain: In my opinion, Rain is definitely dominant at the moment. Even with a lot of people preparing for rain, Crawdaunt easily wins against all Pokemon. I don't see a way in which rain is somehow healthy for the meta. For the fact that it's so obvious - what's happening - it's too strong.

Small other thoughts: Of course HO and offense are dominant - no question about it. But things that stand out for me are simply these many, comprehensive priorities. Prio attacks have probably never been more important or stronger. Mentioning Iceshard and extreemspeed.
sry for my englisch, haha

 

[Cuddly]

Wanted to share this HO team with Electric Terrain and some of the new busted Pokemon.

Highly underrated Pokemon. The damage this thing can deal is absolutely nuts. One Sword Dance and your opponent needs to start buying body bags. For perspective, I used Honkalculate feature on the calculator, pressed CTRL+F, and saw that there was 132 OHKOs out of 150 sets. Besides Gligar, the next best thing at tanking Hitmonlee at +2 is pivot Fezandipiti which takes 65 - 76.8% from Tera Poison Jab. You have more than 90% chance to OHKO defensive Milotic with Close Combat.
Shit is actually crazy and it's a pretty big shock this is under people's radars. Its deadly outspeeds almost everything, and with Terrain seeds is capable of surviving more than you'd expect despite only being slightly bulkier than Deoxys-N on the physical side.
Speed stat is at 266 so it can outspeed even fast scarfers. It can't outspeed uninvested Barraskweda under rain what so ever, so might as well be Adamant. Don't worry, I do have some answers to Rain.


Honestly, only useful for enabling Hitmonlee and also the cool tech for Iron Thorns. Iron Thorns is actually why I picked this over other Terrain setters because it's not AS MUCH dead weight in the lower tiers as it otherwise in UU and OU. Still basically canon fodder with some utility to pressure passive mons or faster Pokemon. It's also a decent Pokemon vs Rain as Discharge threatens the fast water types and Thunder Wave can cripple swift swimmers in a pinch.


Literally last year I theorycrafted set with Gouging Fire where you have enough Def naturally to get a Def boost under Sun, then when Sun fades, Booster Energy will give a boost to Atk with how Protosynthesis works with stat boosts. Same principle here. Iron Thorns has just a bit higher Def than Atk in order to get a Def Boost while Electric Terrain is up. While Terrain is up, you Dragon Dance with the extra bulk. Then when Terrain goes away, Iron Thorns will get an Atk boost from Booster Energy. Also pretty cool that Iron Thorns got better Electric STAB in the DLC.


Stupidly strong wallbreaker. With Hitmonlee and Iron Thorns being the star sweepers, Hoopa's job is to soften up walls that otherwise may impede their sweeps. Or it just flat out kills them. It's one of the hardest hitting Pokemon in RU and chunks so much. It's bad against more offensive teams, but not like that matters much when Hitmonlee and Barraskewda are so fast and clean up those teams.


Mamo is a mon I picked to fill in multiple roles. It's immune to Electric, it can wallbreak, it has priority, it's an Ice type so it can chunk Flying and Ground types easily, and with Tera Grass + Bulk it acts as a great check to Rain. I decided to use Load Dice since the team is a tad bit frail otherwise and I hate Icicle Crash's "misses when you need it the most" accuracy.


Another answer-ish Pokemon to rain, simply running Barraskewda yourself. You abuse Swift Swim so you're as fast as the opposing Barraskewda most likely, and can terrorize the rest of the team. Tera Ghost is there specifically for mirror matches when your opponent is first selecting a move to lock into. More than likely, they are gonna lock into Close Combat, almost certainly because your opponent sees the shiny Super Effective button (or in this case, neutrally effective) and because Liquidation in Rain isn't a guaranteed KO too if you don't Tera. If they get the predict right, you take 0 damage from Close Combat and can fire back yourself likely getting a KO. It also means you are immune to Extreme Speed and Mach Punch as well. Its super niche in that role, but it's also good as a general fast hard hitting Pokemon too.

 

[somethingaboutsomething]

as a UU main i say were sorry for taking TTar back again, it has a much better home in RU anyways so idk why it keeps rising

 

[EviGaro]

I really need to try other things - why did we get a whole new tier a month before getting a whole new tier - but I wanted to focus on the obvious one (Hoopa) at first. Because cmon, of all the things that ever dropped to us idt I have been as shocked by one in that whole decade ROFL.

Anyway, funny team here. I'll just talk about these things first and when I make other stuff I'll elaborate, especially on Mew Enamorus Zarude that I really do want to try:

- Yeah Hoopa is extremely funny in a lot of the wrong ways. It's also extremely customisable though I think starting from Choice Band is an obvious call with Hyperspace Fury being so silly strong. It's definitely on the frail side physically, but I really don't think it matters that much. U-turn can be easily mitigated with tera and ya, you use tera, but if you get two kos that did its job. Special wise though its really really bulky and fairly easy to get into the field, moreso if you use it with some of the wish mons. The team I had in mind here was built in a way that I wouldn't have the ability to take hits, but everything else has momentum and ways to benefit Hoopa's breaking. It's definitely been fine imo, but its damage is way not. (Sidenote, I really don't see how it not being banned is "emblematic of a tier that is in shambles after a DLC2 drop-fest." It's just there's no reason to rush and give all people on Council the time to play and establish a first slate. Hoopa being gone in a new World Record doesn't matter for anything.)

- Hersculegion is everything Masculegion wanted to be but couldn't (kinda like me actually), but... I do wonder if its too strong? What we have that resist both stabs and is actually used:

- Chesnaught
- Crawdaunt
- Cyclizar
- Zarude

Let's get Crawdaunt of the list obviously, because Specs Surf does 80 minimum. Chesnaught without spd will be 2hkoed by surf into tera surf, while losing to two with one spikes up, or rocks if it's helmet. Max HP Cyclizar does not get koed from Ice Beam and takes around 44 from surf, so it can pivot, but it cannot ko hersculegion EVEN with max attack power whip. Zarude can, but also takes around 44 from stabs, and might not run recovery. Point is, you can hit them with ice beam, but you don't need to, and only Cyclizar due to regen isn't in an absolutely dreadful spot, but again, its the one thing on the list that cannot ko it. Then, what else? You have Umbreon, but that wants phys def to handle Hoopa better right now, and even then Surf does 44 to max spd. Chansey? Can't hit you, takes hazards and is fairly easy to grab momentum on. Registeel lost everything good, and also takes 44. Because everything does it seems.

Then yeah, its slow. Kinda, it is. But so is Hoopa, and it has a much better typing. Its bulk is not entirely terrible either due to high base HP. For example, Raikou's Thunderbolt has a 37.5% chance to ko from full. CM Mew that teras outside of its ghost weakness can still lose the 1v1 to Shadow Ball despite Draining Kiss. But then there's rain. Swift Swim solves the speed issue for a few turns, giving its water move an added bonus you just took out. But you can still run Adaptability on rain!! That effectively requires you to run a water absorb mon because like:

- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Tera Water Basculegion-F Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 292-344 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Tera Water Basculegion-F Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic in Rain: 140-166 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. That one is almost impressive once you realize you need Mirror Coat to do something and that means you can't check the Barraskewda whatsoever now.

Anyway, I'm saying a ton about this but there's so much rewards from using it that the downsides are very w/e to me. Its easy to use, easy to play agro with, resists a ton of the needed priorities in this tier and retaliate with... ease. I definitely think so far, that its better than Crawdaunt, Conkeldurr and Mamoswine. Maybe Enamorus too but it's not really similar I suppose.

- Onto way less silly stuff, Cobalion and Flygon are basically old reliables. There's genuinely not much to say, this Cobalion set is a classic, it gets up rocks, volts on stuff, its great. Can we PLEASE keep it for once. Flygon losing roost, defog and toxic makes its defensive niche very hard to replicate, but as a fairly easy to spam offensive-ish mon... It's still Flygon, so I eventually expect it to be used here and in tours. As for why Draco Meteor, look I played on ladder you think I want to lose to Adamant Cloyster cmon now im not new

- Speaking of old reliables. Slither Wing seems in a very similar place to when it dropped to me. Extremely offensive meta that makes you really want First Impression, it's difficult to ko, has a plethora of moves that can be helpful. Again more of the same, but I mostly saw it on sun and its a lot more than just a mon for that archetype.

- Ampha said Whimsicott was bad, but. BUT. I am a believer, like... pretty much always actually. I think the problem with Whimsicott is that people tend to build with roles in mind, and then what mons in the metagame fit those roles better for the team.

Here's the issue, Whimsicott's role is being a Whimsicott. And in most situations, that's not what you want. It's quite frail, not very strong, you let a lot of things in pretty freely. But it has legit one of the best encores in the tier. It's a fast fairy type in a low tier that doesn't get many of those, especially one with uturn. It has SOME resists, which would be inadequate on bulkier teams, but clearly I wasn't going for that. And the kicker: Tailwind. Extremely situational in singles most of the time, sure. But with Hoopa and Hersculegion, it's been very useful as it solves the few issues I had with these breakers. Makes it way easier to counterplay weather and speed boosting offences too. I do agree that it's not something you will consistently see, but I don't think it needs to be that at all. And nothing else I could find would fit what I wanted in that last slot so well.

 

[amyayayy]

I think people are overlooking vikavolt as a good webs setter,
this set 2HKOS cyclizar and deals w a lot of threats as a lead

Vikavolt @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Volt Switch
- Bug Buzz
- Energy Ball

 

[EviGaro]

Council is voting on the following as the first slate of this metagame, feen and Master Chief are rotating for this vote!

Basculegion-F
Conkeldurr
Crawdaunt
Enamorus-Therian
Hoopa-Unbound
Mamoswine
Mew
Zarude


Results will be up sometime this weekend.

 

[FlamingoPokeman]

Council is voting on the following as the first slate of this metagame, feen and Master Chief are rotating for this vote!

Basculegion-F
Conkeldurr
Crawdaunt
Enamorus-Therian
Hoopa-Unbound
Mamoswine
Mew
Zarude


Results will be up sometime this weekend.

Personal opinion:
Ban:
Suspect (as in, not broken now but probably broken later):
Do Not Ban:

 

[amyayayy]

Council is voting on the following as the first slate of this metagame, feen and Master Chief are rotating for this vote!

Basculegion-F
Conkeldurr
Crawdaunt
Enamorus-Therian
Hoopa-Unbound
Mamoswine
Mew
Zarude


Results will be up sometime this weekend.

imo ban zarude hoopa enam crawdaunt and mew
conk basc and mamo are actually nice

 

[lars]

Quick thoughts just because I didn't have as much time as I did before the holidays.

I'm a simple guy and I like to mess around with silly sets on the low ladder, but for whatever my opinion is worth...
Pretty closely agree with FlamingoPokeman here

Ban:
[Too good, too strong, too versatile. Not going to miss it at all]

Probably will deserve a suspect:
[I find enamorus-t to be a very useful defensive addition so I actually would be a little disappointed to see it go so fast. I didn't usually have a problem with it, but low-ish ladder + my team building preferences may bias me here]

Do Not Ban:
[If somehow literally everything else on this list leaves RU, then it might be too strong, but there is so much other good stuff running around right now]

 

[EviGaro]

Hlelo so we voted and here are the results. Beraldo and eifo abstained, but with feen and Rabbit this still gave us 9 votes so 6/9 was the requirement for a ban:

Hoopa-Unbound was unanimous and Mew reached the six bans votes, so as a result Hoopa-Unbound and Mew are banned from SV RU! Tagging Kris and Marty to implement, thank you!

Thank you to everyone who shared their opinions, we of course to encourage you all to keep going. There hasn't been a whole lot of bans so a second slate is quite likely, we'll monitor seasonals as they start.

 

[Feliburn]

This is kind of a weird post because everything said for this meta will most likely be irrelevant next month once we get the bulk of UU mons that will see no usage due to the recent shifts. BUT WHO CARES.

Hoopa and Mew were the clear brokens, so I'm happy we got them out of the way. Enamorus was kind of in a weird position because more and more people were changing their opinions on it as the days passed. I guess we'll see what happens in this upcoming week.

I laddered quite some time for this meta, and ended up topping the ladder with this team:

While not a perfect team, I ended up discovering a few things about the mons used.

I was pleasantly surprised by Registeel. I know a lot of people were really hard on it as it lost Seismic Toss and Toxic. I decided to still give it a try because I used sets that lacked both Toxic and Seismic Toss last generation to a certain level of success. I went for a physically defensive set with Iron Defense, Body Press and Heavy Slam to handle the physical threats in the tier, and trust me when I say there are a lot of them. It might not be as great as I'm making it to be, but it's still a very solid choice.

Choice Scarf Munkidori felt like such a solid anti-meta pick. It matches well vs the more offensive teams because it's faster than the majority of breakers available, including Zarude and Lilligant-Hisui. The stab combination is solid vs these types of teams too. Trick is a solid option as an emergency button vs breakers that set up on it, as well as the fat teams that are running around.

About the other available mons:

This mon is top tier. A strong Knock Off pivot with decent bulk is pretty annoying to handle. Set up sets are also scary late game if you don't play careful around them. I've told other people that I think Zarude will end up being top tier, as the defensive counterplay exists in Fezandipiti, Tinkaton, Slither Wing and Chesnaught, but we have to see how viable using those mons are in the current tier.

I have conk as a mon a step above the other breakers. Annoying bulk, hard hitting attacks and priority just makes this mon so obnoxious to check and revenge kill. In the team I posted above, I just have to pray my Conk is faster, and that I can prevent rocks to get in Munkidori to revenge kill it.

I feel like if people want to prove that this mon is broken, then try some Choice Band Mamo + Volt Turn support. I know that Loaded Dice + Trailblaze is a tentative set for the speed boost, but I've always thought that Mamo's strongest feat was the high damage Earthquake + Ice coverage for the few resists. Doing 25 with Earthquake to a Slowbro surely is not it. I mention it cause I know a few players thought it was broken, but so far it feels the most tame out of all the drops.

That's about it. If we were to do a second round of bans then I could see Zarude, Enamorus and Conkeldurr as good suspects, but who knows how much the meta will change defensively without Hoopa and Mew.

 

[lavarina]

my showdown broke on me so that means i have to physically stop playing and actually put my thoughts in lmao

expressing my enamorus hate before we begin

With Mew and Hoopa-U out of the way, this means more leeway for Fighting and Poison types. Is that good? Is that bad? Is it mandatory to have a Flying or Psychic type now? Who knows! Either way, meta's very offensive oriented still, whether it's a good or bad thing isn't something I can judge. I do wanna discuss a few mons tho.

I like these two together. Chesnaught is one of the few physically defensive mons that can take on the likes of Zarude, Mamoswine from full, Conkeldurr, and other things, specifically Fighting moves which Empoleon hates. With how many Fighting-types there are, Chesnaught makes things easier. Empoleon on the other hand can take on Flying and Fairy types (that aren't named Earth Power Enamorus) for Chesnaught, being able to heal back with Roost or get a boost from Defog. They're both very neat.

Stop using HJK girl it hurts me too when you miss. Jokes aside offensive regen is fun. With the amount of scarfers in this meta, Mienshao fits in perfectly as it's able to deal damage or pivot out with ease. Talonflame or Kilowattrel don't come in for free either, since they risk getting hit by Knock Off or the rare Stone Edge. Is it unbearable? As of right now no, but it is incredibly strong.

Feliburn said it already that Scarf Munkidori is a great anti-meta pick. With the ban of Hoopa-U and Mew, Fighting-types have much more breathing room to wreak havoc. That's where Munkidori comes in, outspeeding almost if not the entire metagame unboosted. But it has to be careful as most of the time there will always be a Steel-type, let alone a Steel-type that resists both its STABs (AHEMbisharpAHEM).

Speaking of Fighting types

Welcome to the Fighting-type shop. we have defensive ones, hard hitting ones, and ones that are specifically to say fuck you to Kilowattrel. It's almost surprising how we have a ton of Fighting types that are viable in their own way. Imo the most dangerous one is Hitmonlee in terrain teams. That shit is scary once it sets up a Swords Dance with Unburden.

Dragon Energy go boom. Specs is a nuke, but that's only when you remove the faster threats. And trust me, there's a lot that can outspeed this guy. At least Tera Blast Steel and Earth Power means that it can actually hit Fairy and Steel types.

id type more but its 12 am so this is all i got. yippie in my tiny head

 

[FlamingoPokeman]

The tier is still in a bit of flux as people try to work out the best set of 6 to cover the dearth of options (how can you really prep for all of , , , , , , , , and on offensive teams?) BUT I think the tier has close to enough answers defensively to handle most teams and structures.

With Rain remaining as the best weather by a lot (RIP and ) I believe the best answers for a lot of the tier will be , and . and could realistically wall most Rain teams but I feel they're a little too underwhelming into the tier without specifically designing your team around them (I do like me some HDB Chansey right now).
, and provide some really good hazard setting steels that can do enough offensively to warrant consideration on a lot of teams (and, for Tink especially, Encore + Knock sets will work great into setup mons and fat teams alike).
and will continue to be obnoxious with Choice Scarf Trick + CM Taunt sets respectively, spamming Toxic Chain all around, but likely suffer from the abundance of power available now.
, and other fighting types will reign supreme for a while as not much can handle Guts boosted Facades from Conk, Victory Dance Tera 'x' (fire, water, flying?) from Lili-H and SD / Scarf Terrakions. and will continue to be great offensive options with strong CC's, pivoting moves, priority and longevity in the form of Regenerator and Morning Sun keeping them around to annoy you for longer than you'd like.
and are probably my favorites for the next bans (and Enam but I feel like that should've been banned already...). They both have immense immediate power and can really get going with the option for the funny monkey to SD Trailblaze Tera Fire sweep you while Mamo can break pretty much anything with Icicle Crash, Earthquake, Knock Off and Trailblaze / Icicle Shard / Rock Blast LO/LD sets.
is broken and will double dance its way to a ban sooner than later hopefully (or Specs Moonblast / Agility 3 attacks).

Ultimately, the tier still had really strong team structures for both offensive and defensive orientations. I believe with and gone stocks will soar and it will Strength Sap / Leech Seed its way to a lot of wins against physical attackers 1v1. All hail the plume and let's make Stall great again!

 

[Sneakyplanner]

A new holy trinity is born​

There are a lot of broken threats running around right now, once that can feel impossible to deal with without having some awkward mons that don't fit into a core. Mamoswine And enamorus in particular are the subject of much whining. But there is a pokemon that can beat both, and it slots pretty nicely into a trio with other generally good pokemon: rotom heat, which resists the evil combinations of ice/ground and fairy/ground, while being able to burn mamoswine and nasty plot alongside Enamorus' calm mind boosts.

​

sample sets

Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 120 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
- Roost

Rotom-Heat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Nasty Plot
- Will-O-Wisp

Vileplume @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Effect Spore
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Strength Sap
- Leech Seed

Chesnaught @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Knock Off
- Spikes
- Synthesis

Empoleon is a generally splashable mon that you can build a variety of teams around. Rotom-heat covers Empoleon's ground and electric weaknesses while also having its rock and water weaknesses covered by Empoleon. Vileplume is a physically defensive mon that completes the core, covering Empoleon's fighting weakness as well as many of the squad's other weaknesses while having its weaknesses to flying, fire, psychic and ice covered by the rest of the core and making the team not lose to terrakion and rhyperior. Chesnaught can be used in place of vileplume, being a much more bulky grass type that also sets spikes and beats crawdaunt and she/hersculegion, but it doesn't answer conkeldurr as well and has a worse typing than the goatplume.

I'm not too sure how to complete the team yet, but I know that krookodile makes a good partner, like it does with everything, and it lacks speed that can be fixed with mons like scarfers, cyclizar, terrakion, cobalion and raikou. If you use chesnaught over vileplume then you need to find a fighting resist or two to fill the rest of the team. This core structure also has a lot of flexibility, especially with the plume/chesnaught flex slot. Empoleon can be an offensive mon like in my sample set or a fully defensive one with a slow pivot move to support frail breakers in slots 3-6 and create a volt-turn core with rotom. Rotom can run any 2 of pain split, nasty plot and wisp and feel the pain as you wish you had the one missing move. Vileplume and Chesnaught have a ton of moveset options. Toxic, leech seed and stun spore are all good 4th move options on plume and chesnaught can either run spikes+synthesis or leech seed+spiky shield.

 

[Cuddly]

Wanted to share this HO team with Electric Terrain and some of the new busted Pokemon.

Highly underrated Pokemon. The damage this thing can deal is absolutely nuts. One Sword Dance and your opponent needs to start buying body bags. For perspective, I used Honkalculate feature on the calculator, pressed CTRL+F, and saw that there was 132 OHKOs out of 150 sets. Besides Gligar, the next best thing at tanking Hitmonlee at +2 is pivot Fezandipiti which takes 65 - 76.8% from Tera Poison Jab. You have more than 90% chance to OHKO defensive Milotic with Close Combat.
Shit is actually crazy and it's a pretty big shock this is under people's radars. Its deadly outspeeds almost everything, and with Terrain seeds is capable of surviving more than you'd expect despite only being slightly bulkier than Deoxys-N on the physical side.
Speed stat is at 266 so it can outspeed even fast scarfers. It can't outspeed uninvested Barraskweda under rain what so ever, so might as well be Adamant. Don't worry, I do have some answers to Rain.


Honestly, only useful for enabling Hitmonlee and also the cool tech for Iron Thorns. Iron Thorns is actually why I picked this over other Terrain setters because it's not AS MUCH dead weight in the lower tiers as it otherwise in UU and OU. Still basically canon fodder with some utility to pressure passive mons or faster Pokemon. It's also a decent Pokemon vs Rain as Discharge threatens the fast water types and Thunder Wave can cripple swift swimmers in a pinch.


Literally last year I theorycrafted set with Gouging Fire where you have enough Def naturally to get a Def boost under Sun, then when Sun fades, Booster Energy will give a boost to Atk with how Protosynthesis works with stat boosts. Same principle here. Iron Thorns has just a bit higher Def than Atk in order to get a Def Boost while Electric Terrain is up. While Terrain is up, you Dragon Dance with the extra bulk. Then when Terrain goes away, Iron Thorns will get an Atk boost from Booster Energy. Also pretty cool that Iron Thorns got better Electric STAB in the DLC.


Stupidly strong wallbreaker. With Hitmonlee and Iron Thorns being the star sweepers, Hoopa's job is to soften up walls that otherwise may impede their sweeps. Or it just flat out kills them. It's one of the hardest hitting Pokemon in RU and chunks so much. It's bad against more offensive teams, but not like that matters much when Hitmonlee and Barraskewda are so fast and clean up those teams.


Mamo is a mon I picked to fill in multiple roles. It's immune to Electric, it can wallbreak, it has priority, it's an Ice type so it can chunk Flying and Ground types easily, and with Tera Grass + Bulk it acts as a great check to Rain. I decided to use Load Dice since the team is a tad bit frail otherwise and I hate Icicle Crash's "misses when you need it the most" accuracy.


Another answer-ish Pokemon to rain, simply running Barraskewda yourself. You abuse Swift Swim so you're as fast as the opposing Barraskewda most likely, and can terrorize the rest of the team. Tera Ghost is there specifically for mirror matches when your opponent is first selecting a move to lock into. More than likely, they are gonna lock into Close Combat, almost certainly because your opponent sees the shiny Super Effective button (or in this case, neutrally effective) and because Liquidation in Rain isn't a guaranteed KO too if you don't Tera. If they get the predict right, you take 0 damage from Close Combat and can fire back yourself likely getting a KO. It also means you are immune to Extreme Speed and Mach Punch as well. Its super niche in that role, but it's also good as a general fast hard hitting Pokemon too.

Well this team needs an update now. What's the best Pokemon to replace Hoopa with?

 

[Rarelyme]

Alright now that the two obvious bans are out of the way, it might be time for some closer tiering. I have played a bit and theory crafted a lot so here is what came out of it:

In my opinion, this guy is the main unhealthy presence in the tier right now. We just don't have enough tools to pretend being able to check it reliably. Nothing in the tier can safely come in a guts boosted facade and every ghost type gets deleted by knock off (even itemless Palossand has a 30% chance to get 2HKO'd). Even its awful Speed isn't that much of a problem because with boosted Mach Punch it can manage to be very threatening to HO or faster archetypes oftentimes slotting Lycanroc, Barraskewda, Mamoswine, Krookodile or Zarude which get badly damaged by it. By itself, Conkeldurr seems to be able to cancel Balance to Stall teams which means it is ban material.

Actually I like this mon quite a bit. It is obviously extremely strong and bulky BUT we have reliable counter plays which make it somewhat manageable. There are two main reasons as to why in my mind we shouldn't ban Enamorus.
First, unlike Conkeldurr, it has a bunch of good sets and can be played differently, among others we have boots healing wish, specs, agility and I even tried a physical set which was quite fun. I know the big issue with Enamorus is the CM and Double Dance sets which bring me to my second point: these can be stopped pretty effectively if taken into consideration while building. Encore and Taunt are both very good against it for instance: Tinkaton is faster and can come in and Encore a Draining Kiss/Calm Mind, same as Salazzle (both can even hold the Air Balloon well to make it safer). Taunt can be run on mons like Talonflame, your own Enamorus, Fezandipiti to an extend and even my personal favorite: Oricorio Baile (surprisingly good atm s/o to Evi for it). The big weakness of these sets is that they are slow to set up and Enamorus' Speed doesn't help with that, meaning archetypes like HO can reliably overwhelm it as well if you manage to play around its Tera.
I can understand that people think it is too much for the tier, however I truly think that what I just mentioned puts it at least in that grey area between ban worthy and not ban worthy. This is where the argument of the metagame comes in. We have to remember that this meta is only here for a month basically. Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't make tiering actions because of it but I think Pokemon in this grey area should be left in the tier to minimize hasty bans that would hurt the tier long-term.

I'll be quicker from now on because I haven't tested as much with the following mons than with these two.

I don't think Basculegion-F is ban worthy because the only situation where it's close to unmanageable is rain. Therefore it's Politoed that should be talked about for basically enabling the archetype. To me, it's still in that grey area because I have trouble finding rain consistent enough to deserve a ban.

Definitely a pain to deal with both in the builder and on the field. It doesn't hit as hard as Conkeldurr so it's a bit easier to check thanks to stuff like Heattom but I mean it does also cancel most Balance and fat archetype I have seen. I would support a ban.

I know some people think this thing is broken. Well, I have trouble seeing it. I think that Conkeldurr's presence makes its life harder because every team tries to prepare for the big guy so Mienshao doesn't end up being a problem by itself. Let it be, Mienshao is cool.

From what I've faced on the ladder, zarude seems harder to deal with than Enamorus, mostly because it's pretty fast and is more threatening more quickly. The Tera Fire set is quite hard to deal but the others are fine, scarf and pivot zarude are even quite healthy for the meta I'd say. Grey area moment once again.

ty for reading :)

 

[lavarina]

Well this team needs an update now. What's the best Pokemon to replace Hoopa with?

something like Regidrago could work? Specs Enamorus and Noivern could fill in the Hoopa-U shaped role too (kinda?)

 

[lars]

I wish I had more time to get more games in, but at this point I don't think my opinion will change much.

Basically my opinions on the relative "unhealthiness" of pokemon in the tier is:
> >* = ≥**

* my personal opinion on the RUBL/RU line
** independent of rain (I'm considering rain separate - see below with Hersculegion)
I don't feel like or are unhealthy at all (I'd even say positive additions), but as Rarelyme mentioned, trying to prepare for Conkeldurr means you probably are reasonably covered for Mienshao, Terrakion, and (other offensive fighting types). If and when Conkeldurr is pushed to RUBL, the relative strengths of other fighting types will probably increase; however, I still doubt this will push anything into "unhealthy" territory.

more specific thoughts

Conkeldurr

Generally speaking, my opinion of Conkeldurr's issues mirror what others have said. At worst, it's taking out 1 thing. Usually it takes out 2 and Mach punch chip on a 3rd. Essentially, you want a fast special attacking ghost type to quickly take it out, but you're almost certainly sacking something to get that in...
...and then Conkeldurr can be switched out to repeat this assuming it doesn't have much flame orb chip yet.
When Hoopa-U and Mew were running around, Conkeldurr was at least a little harder to fit on a team. It's on plenty now and I quickly learned what a menace it is.

more specific thoughts

Zarude

Zarude probably starts into the gray territory on "unhealthy" for the tier. After playing around with it, the Bulk Up + Jungle Healing set seems best (at least on balance and bulky offense - which is usually what I use) with Tera whatever bug/fighting/fire resist seems best for the team.

EDIT: now that the BU+Sub+Drain Punch set is running around, this has pushed it over the edge for me. Needing to consider and play around the two BU sets and the SD set is seemingly impossible (best bet is basically the Zarude mirror. I've also just been able to brute force through Haze users so yeah... END EDIT

I usually ran Tera ghost ( ...this makes some zarude mirrors annoying), although I assume fairy/fire is best. SD + trailblaze is important to keep in mind, but it's at least easier to chip with priority moves and a reasonably healthy fast flying-type or Enamorus-T is a solid switch. The pivot set can be annoying, but seems generally easier to sponge (and I hardly see any of this set now). A fast dark/grass type is a nice addition to the tier in theory, but Zarude feels a little too good.

more specific thoughts

Enamorus-T

Well, I've used Enamorus-T the most out of the "questionable drops" and it's strong and it's versatile. In a tier where Conkeldurr and Zarude are running around, I also think it's a very healthy option for counter play. Enamorus-T at least checks almost all sets of both and straight up counters some (blowing tera might be required). Fairy/Flying is a very rare and (in RU) very good typing. And being certain of outspeeding a (admittedly very rare) max speed Conkeldurr is invaluable right now. Offensive sets can tank a Knock Off and OHKO with Moonblast and Double Dance sets can probably win, but at least severely weaken it by tanking the Facade and then using your fairy move. As always, to best manage Zarude and Conkeldurr, HDB or a clear field is probably required.

There is pretty reasonable counter play for Enamorus-T itself, but of course, its power exists in the options it has to it. Agility+3Attacks, CM+3Attacks, and Double Dance need different counter play. Rotom-H is notable because it's probably the most splashable option. Tinkaton and other encore users can be reasonable to fit on teams and usually do ok too. On the defensive side, there are a decent amount of set-up sweepers and hard-hitters that don't have a problem getting past it. Volt-Turn is pretty pervasive and getting the turn or two required to start posing a threat requires some work. I get it, it can be annoying to consider in the teambuilder, but in my opinion, it's not oppressive. I like this tier having Enamorus-T.

more specific thoughts

Mamoswine

I used and saw this the least on my list so these thoughts are a little more limited and should be taken with a grain of salt.
Pretty much, it's a really good offensive Stealth Rock setter and it's really good at cheesing through checks/counters with Icicle Crash flinches. That said, it seems like it fills the role of decent offensive ground type beside Krook pretty well. I saw Lead Mamo the most (and it's probably the most useful option in the current meta just because there are a lot of other physical hard hitters right now that Band/Scarf sets would be competing with). I do think the set of EQ, Icicle Crash, Trailblaze, Knock/Shard/TeraBlast/Rock coverage can potentially be really good, but it's kind of hard to justify extra water and fighting weaknesses in this meta. When Life Orb EQ does less than Conk's Mach Punch in that 1v1, it feels pretty bad. And fast waters that usually require priority moves to revenge kill resist ice. Finally, Rotom-H is running around more and more since it's decent into both Mamo and Enamorus-T and chances are you're burned before you get any work done. If Politoed and/or a fighting type or two (ahem... Conk...) is pushed to RUBL, I'll reevaluate. As of right now, when I tried to use it on a team, it felt like a little too much of a liability for those reasons. Since offensive ground types are a bit at a premium, I would be in favor of seeing Mamo remain in the tier.

more specific thoughts

Hersculegion

I used this just a little less than Enamorus-T (and never on rain, but I saw PLENTY on rain teams).
As fits the theme here... it's definitely good. And on rain, maybe gets pushed to borderline "unhealthy". Scarf sets feel mandatory outside of rain, but that's fine. Click Flip Turn if you can't KO most things yet and Hydro Pump when you can. Shadow Ball (and probably ice beam) when you need to. Hersculegion seems like it has the most checks/counters on my list, but I agree, it can be annoying to essentially need a water absorb user, Chesnaught, AV cyc, or a hard hitting ghost/dark type with STAB priority. I imagine this will get a slight boost if Zarude or Conk end up RUBL because there will be slightly fewer strong Knock Offs to deal with, but they fill completely different roles so it's not like it's intra team competition.

Rain is an issue of its own. I think it can be handled relatively easily on stall/balance/bulky teams, but it's pretty restrictive in the team builder. I'd say let Politoed stay, but I wouldn't miss it either. In any case, Hippo or Ttar might drop at the end of the month anyway which probably handles the problem.

Last thoughts:
Right after the drops (especially with Hoopa-U + Mew) it was jarring because I went from really liking the meta to really disliking the meta. After playing around a little, I was ok with it. Now after the first couple bans, I like it almost as much as before (I previously would have rated it 8/10 in enjoyment with or without Jugulis).

When I was using a team that had both Zarude and Conkeldurr, as I got familiar with match ups, my biggest concern on team preview became Zarude and Conkeldurr. That's more or less the point where I decided these two are the top threats or most "unhealthy". Exactly where to draw the line of RUBL on my list? Probably between Zarude and Enamorus-T. With Conkeldurr gone, Zarude probably gets better (another strong Knock Off option and defensively you don't need to worry about crazy strong Mach Punches anymore) so just pushing them out together seems efficient. Enamorus-T, Mamo, and Hersculegion will remain closer to the same in power level so if they seem ok now, they probably still will be. And then February drops will be here!


TL; DR

In my opinion, ban Conkeldurr. Consider banning Zarude (leaning on the ban side of the fence - Bulk Up set too strong). Consider banning Politoed (leaning on the NO ban side of the fence, but I won't miss it). I like the tier with the rest.
EDIT: changed my opinion to definitely ban Zarude END EDIT
Thank you for your time (especially if you actually read everything O.O )

 

[lavarina]

i really do hope Hippowdon or Tyranitar come back because holy crap i cannot deal with the same Barraskewdas, Basculegions and Kilowattrels blasting me to no tomorrow. If you don't have a switch-in then you're basically just doomed, and even with water switch-ins the opp can just replace Barra/Bascu with another mon. Rinse and repeat. Maybe it's a skill issue, it probably is ngl. But lord every time a rain team comes in I just cry inside. I miss Hippowdon yall