Announcement SV RU Suspect Process Round 12 - Gotta Go Fast [Yanmega BANNED]

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Hi everyone, the RU council have decided to suspect test Yanmega!


Following the recent RU tiering survey, Yanmega has been chosen by the council to be the next suspect test! With Speed Boost and Throat Spray, Yanmega can 2HKO a majority of the non-resists with its STAB Bug Buzz and Air Slash. The real issue comes upon Terastallization, with Tera Ground + Tera Blast allowing Yanmega to break through its usual checks such as Empoleon, Hisuian-Goodra, Registeel, and Jirachi. Moreover, Air Slash allows Yanmega to cheese past some of its checks with Air Slash flinches, while although a measly 30%, it massively changes the game.

However, the over reliance on Terastallization makes Yanmega quite restrictive, as it is often seen in hyper offense teams, where more than one Pokemon could rely on Terastallization, meaning a well-timed defensive Tera counterplay is solid against Yanmega. Moreover, due to its crippling weakness to Stealth Rock, Yanmega gets a hard time switching in if proper hazard pressure is used against it.

Yanmega ultimately is a one-trick pony, but its trick is very threatening to the current metagame, and thus warrants a suspect test.

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NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING A NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in RU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played RU before the test, full stop.)
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, TheFranklin, or a member of staff.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2800 with a B-value of 7. The deadline for getting requirements will be Friday, November 22nd, 23:59 GMT -5. Good luck to all!
 
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Rocks destroy it, leaving it easily revenge-killed since it doesn't run boots. It might not have one hard counter, but it has a lot of checks in the tier. Even if you don't plan for it, you usually have at least one answer for it. Yanmega is broken in a vacuum, but it has quite a bit of counterplay because it only has one viable set right now.
 
I agree, I think the hate for yanmega is undeserved. While being an annoying pokemon, it's gameplan is extremely obvious. While having strong offensive potential, the fact that it struggles to come in more than once a game limits it greatly. Not to mention it almost requiring tera to get through most of it's walls, with decent play, and a defensive tera if you need to, it can be easily stopped. Most well built teams will have ways of beating it if played well, with mons that directly 1v1 it with tera or priority.
 
I have been very Pro-Ban on Yanmega for a while now, as I don't see anything of value that it adds for the tier besides a very frustrating HO goon. I made a post in the main metagame discussion about why I thought Yanmega was the most constrictive element to play against on an HO team composition, and I still think all those points stand, but even more so now with the banning of Thundurus, which served as a decent way to finagle your way around a late game Yanmega. I still think that being able to just click an extremely powerful STAB that does massive damage unboosted, and then getting a +1 boost just from clicking it is insane, not to mention not needing to worry about speed because it's already covered by your ability. Yes, you do run the disadvantage of needing to run an item other than Heavy-Duty Boots in order to get that boost, but on a team structure like HO, which actively attempts to deny hazards at all costs through the use of Taunt, there is a very distinct possibility that Yanmega doesn't have to worry about taking any form of chip damage coming in. And even if rocks do go up, you have options in Tidy Up to remove them, or you can just not care at all about the chip damage taken, because Yanmega is still relatively bulky at half health against the moves that matter, those being priority. You have a couple of options in that department, you can run Sucker Punch Bisharp which, without Tera Dark, doesn't even have favorable odds to KO after rocks are up. CB Entei rarely KOs after rocks chip, and needs Tera Normal for the guarantee. CB Crawdaunt does have a guaranteed OHKO on Yanmega without the use of Tera, however, I hope we can all see the pattern here of needing to expend some sort of Tera Option, or locking yourself into priority, which by definition is a weaker move fundamentally. You know what loves taking advantage of your inability to output good amounts of damage to setup and sweep the rest of your team, literally the entirety of our pool of HOers. Locked into E-Speed, well now your getting setup on by the likes of Bisharp or Revavroom, Aqua Jet gets used by DD Mence, Feraligatr, or Gyarados, and Sucker Punch, while the least directly abusable of the bunch, still has the chance of being Encored by Maushold. It’s not so much the core of Yanmega that is considered broken, but the facilitation that it gives its allies and vice versa, and how even if you do play correctly and are able to preserve the right counterplay throughout a game, you can lose that key part of your team structure to a 30% secondary effect. Yan has essentially flawless coverage as well, with its STABs + Tera Blast Ground having at least a neutral, but usually super-effective option against the entirety of the tier. Now I'm not saying that Yanmega by itself is broken, but what I am saying is that, like Blastoise, it enables other elements of HO to a tremendous degree, while still serving as an easy wincon if given the opportunity, enabled further by enough bulk and of course, flinches. Yanmega exists solely for HO, and I think its removal will make playing against it feel a lot more fair, there are already plenty of haxxers on HO between Yanmega, Bisharp, and Revavroom, so I really don’t see an issue in removing one as unique as it is in its role of proactive setup.

Just to make sure I’m not editing over blind speculation, I’d like to provide some calcs and replays in order to hopefully ascertain my point better. And just to preface as well, pretty much none of Yanmega’s checks, especially Cyclizar, cannot switch in hard to a Yanmega Bug Buzz, which again is different from other banned special setup sweepers, who could only hit Cyclizar once before being D-Tailed out. Anyways, onto the calcs,

252+ SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 115-136 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 172-204 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Air Slash vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 144-171 (46.9 - 55.7%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO

Like I said, can’t switch into a Bug Buzz at all, especially with rocks up. But lets say best case scenario, you sack some team member who is already low to the Bug Buzz and are able to get into Cyclizar with no prior chip damage occurred. You now run the risk of getting flinched for a light 50% on average, which I should inform you has the exact same chance of flinching as Scald does of burning. So now what, you can hope they click Bug Buzz and defensively Tera to Dragon Tail it out, or you switch out into another sack and run the same problem again. Of course, this is all very much speculative and rather cherry-picked to my point, but over not even that many games this outcome will happen, because once again, this is about as likely to occur as a Scald burn. Cyclizar is also one of the more relevant and frankly better checks to it thanks to Regenerator, but again that chance for flinch, and sometimes more frustratingly the chance to miss Dragon Tail or Draco Meteor, means that the chance to have to randomly sack another part of your team into a matchup that really depends on you keeping as many options in the back as possible is more than likely. Cyclizar has also seen a downtick as of late in usage, meaning that Yanmega has more rain to do as it pleases. The next most viable option would probably be something like SpDef Hoodra or Empoleon, both of which are not huge fans of a Tera Blast Ground to the face.

+1 252+ SpA Tera Ground Yanmega Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Goodra-Hisui: 216-254 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Tera Ground Yanmega Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 284-336 (76.3 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Once again you can Tera to fix these problems, but Yanmega also has the quirky little option of just clicking Protect for shits and giggles and seeing what happens. Also, again, if you’re having to spend your Tera in order to account for one option, which can be very easily exploited by the rest of an HO team, you’re not necessarily winning the exchange in the long term. But enough with the theoretical aspects of my argument, let's look at some actual replays of Yanmega doing Yanmega things.

I present to you one very, very, handpicked replay of Yanmega working its magic, and the other three are from SCL.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ru-2234795881?p2

With an endgame of boosted Tera Fairy Cresselia, which, kind of a weird Tera but whatever, you would think there is absolutely no way that a Yanmega could win, but it’s truly a miracle worker, snatching not one, not two, but three flinches, followed, of course, by a crit in order to win the game. Again, super handpicked to prove my point, but like, this is essentially the worst case scenario.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-793317

Pre-Thundurus ban, but I still think it’s relevant to Yanmega’s case. Elodin is able to get up rocks with Lycan while crucially denying opposing rocks from Hippo, granting extra longevity to Yanmega throughout its role as an early breaker for the rest of the team. Yanmega is switched in on a chipped Slowbro, and Xavgb switches in Klefki as his Bug Buzz absorber, and Yanmega gets the +1 boost. Elodin decides to preserve his tera here, but even with the lack of Tera Blast Ground at his disposal, Yanmega is able to put in massive work, getting rid of a potential T-Wave spreader in Klefki, getting a timely flinch on the Thundurus to deny a Volt Switch and momentum in Xav’s favor. Elodin is able to switch in and Tera Feraligatr because of this momentum, setting up a SD, removing another paralysis spreader in Thundurus, and dealing massive damage to Slowbro as well as forcing a Tera on it, which loses the game in the long term, as there is essentially nothing remaining on Xav’s team to switch into the STAB combination of Armarouge. While Yanmega didn’t really take on the role of an end game sweeper here, it was able to pull off some Yanmega shenanigans to gain momentum in Elodin’s favor and eventually win him the game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-797405

While Django doesn’t win this game, Yanmega is able to put up a theoretically great performance as an endgame cleaner here. After Gweezing is sacked to get rid of rocks, Yanmega comes in and is able to boost up on a switch to Hippo. I would say that this endgame is sort of a throw by Django, as a switched in Reuniclus is somewhat obviously going to tera. Two Air Slashes won him the game, although fairly he wasn’t sure what exactly the tera was. But that’s sort of the purpose of having Air Slash, it’s a decently powerful move, doing 40% to Reuniclus that has a 30% chance of winning on the spot. Django had a potential three different opportunities to flinch here with Yanmega, giving him a 65% chance to win if any flinches happen, and while he doesn’t get the luck he needs, just having an option that has decent enough bulk to get past its checks more likely than the toss of a coin flip is silly to me. Again, while Yanmega doesn’t win, it had ample opportunity to do so if played more optimally. Kilowattrel in the back would eat one up easily enough, but again the odds would be more so in Django’s favor with a flinch chance plus the 70% accuracy of Hurricane.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-804146

Final game, but once again I think it was just kind of a throw from TheFranklin here, as Yanmega had a great opportunity to go off here. On turn twelve, if Yanmega had switched in over Terrakion, it would have gotten the boost off of the most likely SpDef Hoodra that switches in. Assuming max special bulk, Hoodra is taking around 65% from +1 Tera Blast plus Bug Buzz chip. I’m not entirely sure, but I assume that this is running Dragon Tail, so after a 90% accuracy check, which missing loses the game immediately, you lose the boost and take roughly 20%, however you don’t lose Yanmega, which is important. Switching into Maushold is more beneficial, as you certainly pick up a KO with Population Bomb, but Terrakion is also good as you get up rocks with Terrakion, limiting Hoodra in the future. Either of these paths give you a much easier path forward to winning thanks to Speed Boost, and while winning is not a guarantee, you have a much more clear path forward to winning. Even being down 3-5, Franklin had a very real chance to win with Yanmega because of Speed Boost.

TL;DR Yanmega is dumb and I don't like it. It promotes dumb luck over time, has a proactive way to setup which demarcates it in a very special spot for HO, its removal would make HO not so frustrating to play against and there is no real replacement for it on the structure. It also has pretty flawless coverage into the tier, only having a few real checks without the use of tera. Please don't give me any crap about Chansey, that mon is garbo and gets setup on a Bishillion times by every other aspect of HO. Yanmega adds pretty much nothing to team compositions besides HO due to other options having continual use over a game instead of a one time burst. Finally, even though Yanmega is pretty silly just by itself, it is more so the ability to almost always guarantee a sack during its setup, followed by a chance to get rid of any checks with luck, facilitating the rest of HO that truly makes it the dumbest mon in the tier currently for me.
 
I have been very Pro-Ban on Yanmega for a while now, as I don't see anything of value that it adds for the tier besides a very frustrating HO goon. I made a post in the main metagame discussion about why I thought Yanmega was the most constrictive element to play against on an HO team composition, and I still think all those points stand, but even more so now with the banning of Thundurus, which served as a decent way to finagle your way around a late game Yanmega. I still think that being able to just click an extremely powerful STAB that does massive damage unboosted, and then getting a +1 boost just from clicking it is insane, not to mention not needing to worry about speed because it's already covered by your ability. Yes, you do run the disadvantage of needing to run an item other than Heavy-Duty Boots in order to get that boost, but on a team structure like HO, which actively attempts to deny hazards at all costs through the use of Taunt, there is a very distinct possibility that Yanmega doesn't have to worry about taking any form of chip damage coming in. And even if rocks do go up, you have options in Tidy Up to remove them, or you can just not care at all about the chip damage taken, because Yanmega is still relatively bulky at half health against the moves that matter, those being priority. You have a couple of options in that department, you can run Sucker Punch Bisharp which, without Tera Dark, doesn't even have favorable odds to KO after rocks are up. CB Entei rarely KOs after rocks chip, and needs Tera Normal for the guarantee. CB Crawdaunt does have a guaranteed OHKO on Yanmega without the use of Tera, however, I hope we can all see the pattern here of needing to expend some sort of Tera Option, or locking yourself into priority, which by definition is a weaker move fundamentally. You know what loves taking advantage of your inability to output good amounts of damage to setup and sweep the rest of your team, literally the entirety of our pool of HOers. Locked into E-Speed, well now your getting setup on by the likes of Bisharp or Revavroom, Aqua Jet gets used by DD Mence, Feraligatr, or Gyarados, and Sucker Punch, while the least directly abusable of the bunch, still has the chance of being Encored by Maushold. It’s not so much the core of Yanmega that is considered broken, but the facilitation that it gives its allies and vice versa, and how even if you do play correctly and are able to preserve the right counterplay throughout a game, you can lose that key part of your team structure to a 30% secondary effect. Yan has essentially flawless coverage as well, with its STABs + Tera Blast Ground having at least a neutral, but usually super-effective option against the entirety of the tier. Now I'm not saying that Yanmega by itself is broken, but what I am saying is that, like Blastoise, it enables other elements of HO to a tremendous degree, while still serving as an easy wincon if given the opportunity, enabled further by enough bulk and of course, flinches. Yanmega exists solely for HO, and I think its removal will make playing against it feel a lot more fair, there are already plenty of haxxers on HO between Yanmega, Bisharp, and Revavroom, so I really don’t see an issue in removing one as unique as it is in its role of proactive setup.

Just to make sure I’m not editing over blind speculation, I’d like to provide some calcs and replays in order to hopefully ascertain my point better. And just to preface as well, pretty much none of Yanmega’s checks, especially Cyclizar, cannot switch in hard to a Yanmega Bug Buzz, which again is different from other banned special setup sweepers, who could only hit Cyclizar once before being D-Tailed out. Anyways, onto the calcs,

252+ SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 115-136 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 172-204 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Air Slash vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 144-171 (46.9 - 55.7%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO

Like I said, can’t switch into a Bug Buzz at all, especially with rocks up. But lets say best case scenario, you sack some team member who is already low to the Bug Buzz and are able to get into Cyclizar with no prior chip damage occurred. You now run the risk of getting flinched for a light 50% on average, which I should inform you has the exact same chance of flinching as Scald does of burning. So now what, you can hope they click Bug Buzz and defensively Tera to Dragon Tail it out, or you switch out into another sack and run the same problem again. Of course, this is all very much speculative and rather cherry-picked to my point, but over not even that many games this outcome will happen, because once again, this is about as likely to occur as a Scald burn. Cyclizar is also one of the more relevant and frankly better checks to it thanks to Regenerator, but again that chance for flinch, and sometimes more frustratingly the chance to miss Dragon Tail or Draco Meteor, means that the chance to have to randomly sack another part of your team into a matchup that really depends on you keeping as many options in the back as possible is more than likely. Cyclizar has also seen a downtick as of late in usage, meaning that Yanmega has more rain to do as it pleases. The next most viable option would probably be something like SpDef Hoodra or Empoleon, both of which are not huge fans of a Tera Blast Ground to the face.

+1 252+ SpA Tera Ground Yanmega Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Goodra-Hisui: 216-254 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Tera Ground Yanmega Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 284-336 (76.3 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Once again you can Tera to fix these problems, but Yanmega also has the quirky little option of just clicking Protect for shits and giggles and seeing what happens. Also, again, if you’re having to spend your Tera in order to account for one option, which can be very easily exploited by the rest of an HO team, you’re not necessarily winning the exchange in the long term. But enough with the theoretical aspects of my argument, let's look at some actual replays of Yanmega doing Yanmega things.

I present to you one very, very, handpicked replay of Yanmega working its magic, and the other three are from SCL.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ru-2234795881?p2

With an endgame of boosted Tera Fairy Cresselia, which, kind of a weird Tera but whatever, you would think there is absolutely no way that a Yanmega could win, but it’s truly a miracle worker, snatching not one, not two, but three flinches, followed, of course, by a crit in order to win the game. Again, super handpicked to prove my point, but like, this is essentially the worst case scenario.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-793317

Pre-Thundurus ban, but I still think it’s relevant to Yanmega’s case. Elodin is able to get up rocks with Lycan while crucially denying opposing rocks from Hippo, granting extra longevity to Yanmega throughout its role as an early breaker for the rest of the team. Yanmega is switched in on a chipped Slowbro, and Xavgb switches in Klefki as his Bug Buzz absorber, and Yanmega gets the +1 boost. Elodin decides to preserve his tera here, but even with the lack of Tera Blast Ground at his disposal, Yanmega is able to put in massive work, getting rid of a potential T-Wave spreader in Klefki, getting a timely flinch on the Thundurus to deny a Volt Switch and momentum in Xav’s favor. Elodin is able to switch in and Tera Feraligatr because of this momentum, setting up a SD, removing another paralysis spreader in Thundurus, and dealing massive damage to Slowbro as well as forcing a Tera on it, which loses the game in the long term, as there is essentially nothing remaining on Xav’s team to switch into the STAB combination of Armarouge. While Yanmega didn’t really take on the role of an end game sweeper here, it was able to pull off some Yanmega shenanigans to gain momentum in Elodin’s favor and eventually win him the game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-797405

While Django doesn’t win this game, Yanmega is able to put up a theoretically great performance as an endgame cleaner here. After Gweezing is sacked to get rid of rocks, Yanmega comes in and is able to boost up on a switch to Hippo. I would say that this endgame is sort of a throw by Django, as a switched in Reuniclus is somewhat obviously going to tera. Two Air Slashes won him the game, although fairly he wasn’t sure what exactly the tera was. But that’s sort of the purpose of having Air Slash, it’s a decently powerful move, doing 40% to Reuniclus that has a 30% chance of winning on the spot. Django had a potential three different opportunities to flinch here with Yanmega, giving him a 65% chance to win if any flinches happen, and while he doesn’t get the luck he needs, just having an option that has decent enough bulk to get past its checks more likely than the toss of a coin flip is silly to me. Again, while Yanmega doesn’t win, it had ample opportunity to do so if played more optimally. Kilowattrel in the back would eat one up easily enough, but again the odds would be more so in Django’s favor with a flinch chance plus the 70% accuracy of Hurricane.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-804146

Final game, but once again I think it was just kind of a throw from TheFranklin here, as Yanmega had a great opportunity to go off here. On turn twelve, if Yanmega had switched in over Terrakion, it would have gotten the boost off of the most likely SpDef Hoodra that switches in. Assuming max special bulk, Hoodra is taking around 65% from +1 Tera Blast plus Bug Buzz chip. I’m not entirely sure, but I assume that this is running Dragon Tail, so after a 90% accuracy check, which missing loses the game immediately, you lose the boost and take roughly 20%, however you don’t lose Yanmega, which is important. Switching into Maushold is more beneficial, as you certainly pick up a KO with Population Bomb, but Terrakion is also good as you get up rocks with Terrakion, limiting Hoodra in the future. Either of these paths give you a much easier path forward to winning thanks to Speed Boost, and while winning is not a guarantee, you have a much more clear path forward to winning. Even being down 3-5, Franklin had a very real chance to win with Yanmega because of Speed Boost.

TL;DR Yanmega is dumb and I don't like it. It promotes dumb luck over time, has a proactive way to setup which demarcates it in a very special spot for HO, its removal would make HO not so frustrating to play against and there is no real replacement for it on the structure. It also has pretty flawless coverage into the tier, only having a few real checks without the use of tera. Please don't give me any crap about Chansey, that mon is garbo and gets setup on a Bishillion times by every other aspect of HO. Yanmega adds pretty much nothing to team compositions besides HO due to other options having continual use over a game instead of a one time burst. Finally, even though Yanmega is pretty silly just by itself, it is more so the ability to almost always guarantee a sack during its setup, followed by a chance to get rid of any checks with luck, facilitating the rest of HO that truly makes it the dumbest mon in the tier currently for me.
While it’s strong on hyper-offense (HO) teams, it has notable drawbacks that can be exploited with careful play. Yanmega's reliance on an item other than Heavy-Duty Boots leaves it highly vulnerable to entry hazards, meaning that, in many cases, setting up Stealth Rock can quickly limit its effectiveness and lifespan as it doesn't really switch. Unlike other powerful special attackers, Yanmega often requires its Tera type to cover all its counters, which could be used strategically by the opposing team to exploit its predictability.

Additionally, Yanmega's moves, such as Air Slash, carry only a 30% chance to flinch, introducing an element of risk rather than a guaranteed disruption. With Pokémon like Assault Vest Cyclizar or SpDef Empoleon able to handle Yanmega in most cases, especially if supported by Tera defensively, it’s possible to build teams that can adequately handle Yanmega without warping the tier around it. Thus, while Yanmega is undoubtedly powerful, it’s not unmanageable, and banning it is overreacting to a well-defined but counterable niche within HO.


By your logic, with Yanmega having some luck-based elements that let it blow through its checks being ban-worthy, then Bisharp should also be banned as it can also end games with a good tera matchup or the iron head flinches or the Sucker Punch mind games.
 
Yanmega's reliance on an item other than Heavy-Duty Boots leaves it highly vulnerable to entry hazards, meaning that, in many cases, setting up Stealth Rock can quickly limit its effectiveness and lifespan as it doesn't really switch.
answered by
on a team structure like HO, which actively attempts to deny hazards at all costs through the use of Taunt, there is a very distinct possibility that Yanmega doesn't have to worry about taking any form of chip damage coming in. And even if rocks do go up, you have options in Tidy Up to remove them, or you can just not care at all about the chip damage taken, because Yanmega is still relatively bulky at half health against the moves that matter, those being priority.
Don't forget to read the posts you quote
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Yanmega often requires its Tera type to cover all its counters, which could be used strategically by the opposing team to exploit its predictability.
I see literally 0 argument here.
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Additionally, Yanmega's moves, such as Air Slash, carry only a 30% chance to flinch, introducing an element of risk rather than a guaranteed disruption.
Air Slash flinches are not an element of risk, but a pure bonus since Yanmega often needs only Bug Buzz + Tera Blast to hit everything and Air Slash covers things in hits super effectively (most likely OHKOes). Air Slash flinches are here to cheese out a counter if you really need the chip it provides to take the KO.
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Pokémon like Assault Vest Cyclizar or SpDef Empoleon able to handle Yanmega in most cases,
answered by
252+ SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 115-136 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 172-204 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Air Slash vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 144-171 (46.9 - 55.7%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO

Like I said, can’t switch into a Bug Buzz at all, especially with rocks up. But lets say best case scenario, you sack some team member who is already low to the Bug Buzz and are able to get into Cyclizar with no prior chip damage occurred. You now run the risk of getting flinched for a light 50% on average, which I should inform you has the exact same chance of flinching as Scald does of burning. So now what, you can hope they click Bug Buzz and defensively Tera to Dragon Tail it out, or you switch out into another sack and run the same problem again.
additionally, SpDef Empoleon comes with issues as well.
+1 252+ SpA Tera Ground Yanmega Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 284-336 (76.3 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This calc shows that:
1. Empoleon needs to be at max health or very close to it if it wants to actually reliably take Yanmega on
2. It needs to play the Tera lottery if both sides haven't Tera'd yet, which is source of several layers of 50/50s that cannot be influenced by skill. On the first turn, what if Empoleon Teras but Yanmega scouts with Protect? Then you have a 30% chance to lose to an Air Slash flinch - and no, I don't mean losing your mon, I mean losing the entire game on the spot - but clicking Roost on the Protect (extremely risky) saves you. What if both parties don't tera turn 1 ? Then it's another 50/50 on the Tera.
I would personally not call this reliable, although some may.

By your logic, with Yanmega having some luck-based elements that let it blow through its checks being ban-worthy, then Bisharp should also be banned as it can also end games with a good tera matchup or the iron head flinches or the Sucker Punch mind games.
Bisharp is another mon that is quite controversial these times, I don't think this is the argument you think it is chief.
 
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Don't forget to read the posts you quote
I read that snippet, but in my opinion, it's still a difficult problem because trying to deny hazards is notoriously not a great game plan that is easily punishable, but yes, sometimes rocks don't go up, and Yanmega is a huge threat but there is counterplay.

I see literally 0 argument here.
My argument is that if another Pokemon teras Yanmega is a threat with a wide array of answers

252+ SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 115-136 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 172-204 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Air Slash vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 144-171 (46.9 - 55.7%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO

Like I said, can’t switch into a Bug Buzz at all, especially with rocks up. But lets say best case scenario, you sack some team member who is already low to the Bug Buzz and are able to get into Cyclizar with no prior chip damage occurred. You now run the risk of getting flinched for a light 50% on average, which I should inform you has the exact same chance of flinching as Scald does of burning. So now what, you can hope they click Bug Buzz and defensively Tera to Dragon Tail it out, or you switch out into another sack and run the same problem again.

Again, rocks handle this situation quite nicely and assault vest Goodra Hisui destroys Yanmega without even teraing

+1 252+ SpA Tera Ground Yanmega Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 284-336 (76.3 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This calc shows that:
1. Empoleon needs to be at max health or very close to it if it wants to actually reliably take Yanmega on
2. It needs to play the Tera lottery if both sides haven't Tera'd yet, which is source of several layers of 50/50s that cannot be influenced by skill. On the first turn, what if Empoleon Teras but Yanmega scouts with Protect? Then you have a 30% chance to lose to an Air Slash flinch - and no, I don't mean losing your mon, I mean losing the entire game on the spot - but clicking Roost on the Protect (extremely risky) saves you. What if both parties don't tera turn 1 ? Then it's another 50/50 on the Tera.
I would personally not call this reliable, although some may.
If you lose 50/50, then you are screwed I agree, but many other Pokemon in OU have the same situation because of Tera like Gambit or Raging Bolt, or roaring moon

Overall, I like the 50/50 landscape and I believe those moments are what make the game so fun winning the 50/50 feels great but losing it feels awful With risk management, you should win most of the time though
 
I read that snippet, but in my opinion, it's still a difficult problem because trying to deny hazards is notoriously not a great game plan that is easily punishable, but yes, sometimes rocks don't go up, and Yanmega is a huge threat but there is counterplay.

I don't really understand how keeping hazards off is a bad game plan when the entirety of the playstyle is, more or less, based on that premise. I also don't really understand why you think it is punishable, I send in my hazard lead, click taunt on literally anything that is in, doesn't matter whether it's a rocker or so setup sweeper attempting to take advantage of me, and then I get up my hazard of choice before fainting. Sure, there are certainly times that hazards could attempt to go up throughout a game after my lead has died, but that gives agency for Yanmega to switch in, or whatever I have on the field to set up. Don't really think your claim has much to back it up besides hearsay.

Again, rocks handle this situation quite nicely and assault vest Goodra Hisui destroys Yanmega without even teraing
Yeah, sure, AV Goodra does pretty well into Yanmega even at +1, however, the point I'm making is that even if you do Dragon Tail me out, which you have to do because Yanmega naturally lives a Draco without rocks up, a main defensive component of your team is now much, much weaker, and much easier for something like Armarouge, or even Yanmega again later on in the game to abuse. Also, in the example I provided, there is zero shot any well constructed team is running both an AV Cyclizar and AV Hoodra, so you really have just decided to beat around the bush in order to support your argument.

If you lose 50/50, then you are screwed I agree, but many other Pokemon in OU have the same situation because of Tera like Gambit or Raging Bolt, or roaring moon

Overall, I like the 50/50 landscape and I believe those moments are what make the game so fun winning the 50/50 feels great but losing it feels awful With risk management, you should win most of the time though

Main point of your rebuttal that I'd like to discuss, no, Yanmega is not like Gambit or Raging Bolt in that regard, because in OU you are 50/50 on whether or not you outspeed what is in front of you or not, Yanmega just always outspeeds you. Any mix up you try to throw in can and will be scouted by Protect, and then you have to worry about being flinched on top of that. Believe it or not, having quite a few turns come down to a 50/50 is not necessarily enjoyable to everyone.

Just want to remind that my point is not that Yanmega by itself is broken, although it can feel that way sometimes, instead what I'm saying is, much like Blastoise, it just does to much for the HO archetype consistently, and potential counterplay can be rendered moot by flinch chances, gaining even more ground for HO to use over the course of a match.
 
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valid
I don't really understand how keeping hazards off is a bag game plan when the entirety of the playstyle is, more or less, based on that premise. I also don't really understand why you think it is punishable, I send in my hazard lead, click taunt on literally anything that is in, doesn't matter whether it's a rocker or so setup sweeper attempting to take advantage of me, and then I get up my hazard of choice before fainting. Sure, there are certainly times that hazards could attempt to go up throughout a game after my lead has died, but that gives agency for Yanmega to switch in, or whatever I have on the field to set up. Don't really think your claim has much to back it up besides hearsay.


Yeah, sure, AV Goodra does pretty well into Yanmega even at +1, however, the point I'm making is that even if you do Dragon Tail me out, which you have to do because Yanmega naturally lives a Draco without rocks up, a main defensive component of your team is now much, much weaker, and much easier for something like Armarouge, or even Yanmega again later on in the game to abuse. Also, in the example I provided, there is zero shot any well constructed team is running both an AV Cyclizar and AV Hoodra, so you really have just decided to beat around the bush in order to support your argument.



Main point of your rebuttal that I'd like to discuss, no, Yanmega is not like Gambit or Raging Bolt in that regard, because in OU you are 50/50 on whether or not you outspeed what is in front of you or not, Yanmega just always outspeeds you. Any mix up you try to throw in can and will be scouted by Protect, and then you have to worry about being flinched on top of that. Believe it or not, having quite a few turns come down to a 50/50 is not necessarily enjoyable to everyone.

Just want to remind that my point is not that Yanmega by itself is broken, although it can feel that way sometimes, instead what I'm saying is, much like Blastoise, it just does to much for the HO archetype consistently, and potential counterplay can be rendered moot by flinch chances, gaining even more ground for HO to use over the course of a match.
valid
 
Got reqs and from my experience laddering (both for this suspect test and prior to it), I personally don't find Yanmega broken. It's a one-trick pony with lots of counterplay including some of the best mons in the tier.

For one, it needs a lot of team support. Most of the time, it's on HO and you know your opponent is going to do everything they can to keep rocks off their side of the field which can be taken advantage of with smart positioning. It's also a massive tera hog so if one of its teammates is forced to tera, Yanmega essentially becomes a non-threat.

Even when it does tera, +1 Tera Blast Ground doesn't even 1HKO Specially Defensive Empoleon or AV Goodra-H, and both of them threaten to kill in return. Even if they've taken a little damage beforehand, defensive teras can help them survive and kill back. Of course, there are mind games involved with regard to whether you tera on the Protect and potentially reveal your hand early but mindgames like that are part of what makes the tier fun.

It's also very vulnerable to phazing from mons like AV Cyclizar, Hippowdon, Vaporeon, Milotic (none of which are one shot by any move from +1 Yanmega including Hippo without any SpDef investment).

Even HO teams which typically don't have any of the above mons have counterplay such as Air Balloon Revavroom and Red Card Mimikyu.

We lost one of its biggest offensive checks in Thundurus-T recently but Yanmega still hates other non-grounded Electrics such as Oricorio-Pom-Pom, Rotom-H, and the rising star Kilowattrel.

Of course all this aforementioned counterplay can be invalidated by a single Air Slash flinch which to me is what makes this mon close to broken but often times, you still get chances to fight back such as timing your tera correctly or priority from mons like Bisharp, Entei, Crawdaunt, Terrakion, Mimikyu, Feraligatr, etc.

That is not to say that there aren't games that get stolen by an unfortunate Air Slash flinch or two but that isn't enough to convince me that Yanmega needs to go especially when there are plenty of other RNG demons in the tier that feel much scarier to play against. I also agree that certain Yanmega counterplay can leave you vulnerable to getting set up on by its HO teammates but I believe this problem can more effectively be mitigated by banning the more splashable and unpredictable Bisharp instead (won't get too much into it here because this isn't the thread for it). I would also like to note that Yanmega's usage and winrate in tournaments is nothing special, if not a little on the low side.

For the reasons mentioned above (heavy team support required, tera hog, vulnerable to hazards and phazing, fails to OHKO its checks that kill it in return, and weak to priority), I will be voting DO NOT BAN.
 
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Yanmega is, if not broken, exceedingly uncompetitive. It's about halfway between an actual broken threat and the skill link kings rock stuff that started making waves in gen 8 ou towards the end. Even if the mon does have some linear defensive counterplay that isn't invalidated by tera ground, it sure is invalidated by a 30% chance to just instantly win the game every single turn. Here's a couple replays of it doing exactly that:

Yanmega 1v1s Eviolite Chansey with flinches and hazards
One Flinch leads to half my opponent's team dying and them burning their tera in a horrible spot
Two Flinches lead to a sweep from turn one despite my opponent having a favourable tera
This one is extra lucky but flinches on fez lead to the entire team dying

While Yanmega can be evaluated as a broken on its own merits, in which case it's still deserving of a suspect, it's also worth pointing out it's pretty much designed to reward fishing - throat spray being a one-time consumable, it being very difficult to revenge kill normally, and it being 30% away from beating every single one of its checks means that every single game it's in is decided by pure chance as opposed to any real playing by either party. There are other flinch bots in the tier, but Yanmega is the most egregious since its combination of speed boost and a surprisingly decent bulk/typing combination for taking random priority attacks (quick attack terrakion sure as hell isn't killing it) gives it a bunch of opportunities to work its magic and basically forces you to play the minigame at least once if you want to beat it. Add on to the fact that it's the best offensive sweeper in the tier already and I think this is a pretty easy ban.

Here is the Team I used - enjoy spreading luck and making the ladder worse while you still can!
 
I've gotten my reqs, and i want to preface this by saying that i doubt removing :yanmega: will be enough to fix the problem of hyper offense and how it can steal games so often.

Lets list out all the mons that can counter or "Check" :Yanmega: without tera being involved

::Chansey: the best wall for :yanmega:, but it can still get worn down by hazards and flinched down.
::Empoleon: switches in and threatens with an ice beam/surf
::Goodra-hisui: threatens with draco
::revavroom: Clicks shift gear and assuming no double flinch kills with gunk
::magnezone: Threatens with electric move and takes nothing
::registeel: More niche but can twave and 4hko with hslam/iron head
::fezandipiti: Cm sets set up on it, but if its not :covert cloak: with a flinches yanmega can break thru
::milotic: clicks mirror coat/ice beam
::Vaporeon: Spdef :covert cloak: walls it,
::Jirachi: To be honesty this is a fake check it does nothing to it.

Now lets add :yanmega: tera to the equation
::Chansey: does the same thing post tera
::Empoleon: :Shuca berry: can ice beam it
::Goodra-hisui: Max spattack :assault vest: clicks draco, whilst bulky :assault vest: can click dtail (which is a lot more dicey as i will cover soon)
::Milotic: does the same thing
::Vaporeon: still beats it if :covert cloak:

Now to adress the other "counterplay" naemly phazing and tera
Phazing- :Yanmega: is weak to phazing on paper but hyper offense doesnt mind most of the time since either :yanmega: chips the down phazer into range of its teamates examples being :yanmega: chipping a :vaporeon: into range of a +1 :revavroom: gunk shot and chipping :hippowdon: into range of everything. Alternativly :Yanmega:s teammates such as :armarouge:, :revavroom:, :Maushold: ect as well as hazards can chip phazers like :vaporeon: and :cyclizar: into range of :yanmega:. This same principle can be applied to tera
Tera- There are plenty of mons that can exhast tera to defeat yanmega but often times this is beneficial to the ho team, such as a tera steel :cyclizar: becoming much worse into :armarouge:, tera fairy :slowbro: losing its ability to beat :revavroom: . Tera is a double edged sword tho bcs some mons are fine with burning tera (esp after :yanmega: has) such as tera water :fezandipiti: and the greatast anti offense mon ever tera dragon :assault vest: :reuniclus: . Overall I do believe that forcing teras is benificial to the hyper offense team.

Now to list of some of :yanmega:s weaknesses
-Stealth rock, this one is pretty obvious but i dont think its as bad as people make it out to be as most ho have hazard control like taunt :terrakion: and :maushold: as well as :yanmega: can pop tera to remove the rocks weakness.
-Priority, priority is a good way to rkill yanmega, but it often lets it teammates such as encore :maushold: set up for free.
-Tera reliant, this is a pretty big knock on :yanmega: given how valuable tera is, but sometimes you dont even need tera to break through its counterplay.
- One trick pony, I think :yanmega: has a lot of unexplored set diversety, similar to how :roaring moon: was in ou a few months back. Ideas like tera fighting, tera fairy, tera fire, sub and more could work given the right innovations and support.

Overall :yanmega: can power through its counterplay with hazards, chip, flinches and tera, whilst also being hard hitting and boosting its speed with speed booster, so yes i say we ban yanmega.

Team i used for reqs:
:hippowdon: :Entei: :Reuniclus: :chesnaught: :cyclizar: :mimikyu:
This team farms every hyper offense team ever (other then :cloyster: snow but thats fake anyway) whilst also having an fsight+hazards angle for bulkier teams with the only insta lose mu being :umbreon:+defog+:mimikyu: beater.
 
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I don't think Yanmega is broken per se, but I do think there's too much pressure when handling heavy HO teams. I've always said that Yanmega is the strongest HO mon because you get a free boost naturally, and another one by clicking your most powerful STAB. Secondary STAB Air Slash has a flinch chance, and while it's just 30% and the move can miss, it easily ends a game if it gets the flinch because you need to keep specific mons healthy in the back to handle the other threats that are waiting to set up on you. As someone who started using Shuca Berry Empoleon for Tera Ground Tera Blast Yanmega, I really just accept my fate when I see the tera is actually Electric so I wasn't going to do anything to begin with.

The post above is honestly really solid at explaining that even though there's counterplay to Yanmega, it sets up other teammates perfectly if it doesn't get the flinch first (too many images make it a bit confusing to read though).

For the sake of tier health, I'll probably be voting ban on Yanmega. I do think HO is able to fill in this slot for yet another annoying breaker, and I'm afraid it might turn into a witch hunt to ban HO mons until it no longer feels like a threat, but I think there's some acceptance we have to take in a tera gen on HO always being a strong style. I don't think any mon can feel as annoying as Yanmega (Iron Jugulis vibes) so it might make HO feel less frustrating to face.
 
I have been very much pro-ban on Yanmega for several months now, you can find bits of my thoughts on this monster here, here and here.

Hoops's and colorednaem's posts do a good job at explaining why Yanmega is problematic.

I will add that I prefer when threats can be played around through skill instead of being forced to slot in 1 hard counter + 1 soft counter in every team. Yanmega very much does not adhere to this principle due to the combination of its proactive setup tools, impossibility of outspeeding it + its superb resilience to priority that is not Crawdaunt Aqua Jet post-Tera Ground, making its Stealth Rock weakness much less meaningful if you succeed in setting them in the first place. Add to this the 30% chance to get past any "soft-counter" and this is a big no-no from me. See you on the other side yan, you won't be missed.
 
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I think that Yanmega is ban worthy personally for a couple of reasons. Number one is that already you can see that it is warping the tier around it. It's not like with Okidogi where it's obvious, like it's not "oh that's a glowbro on a BO team, wonder why", but there has been a MARKED increase in teams running either: Special Wall Lefties Hoodra (which has completely overtaken Specs Hoodra in popularity), Chansey, Volcanion, and Empoleon. This isn't causing the tier to become unplayable persay, and it isn't like the worst thing in the world for a tier to adapt, but like. Chansey, on non-stall teams. Is pretty crazy. And you can't point to like Specs Hoodra being the reason for this cause these guys are all there specifically to not lose to Yanmega, and there really aren't too many other explosive special attackers since slowbro games all over these guys and reun hasn't been seen in a hot second, and you get the point. People are absolutely being forced to change team structures and slot in special walls because they are getting tired of: you guessed it! Yanmega.
Another thing is that I feel like everyone who advocates for non-ban just like... downplay Yanmega a lot? Yanmega wants, but doesn't require team support, and often said team support comes in the form of a frightening one teamslot, who is usually able to do stuff anyways that helps out the rest of the team. Yanmega would like to be able to come in and not take 50% from rocks but like even WITH rocks up


252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Yanmega: 138-163 (44 - 52%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

this bug

252 Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Yanmega: 136-160 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

just won't

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Yanmega: 154-182 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

fucking

252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Yanmega: 118-139 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

die


even that second-to-last one (craw) is a near roll, from one of the strongest priority moves in the tier period. Yanmega wants team support to be *optimal*, not usable. You literally just have the ability to luck out of any situation, even bad ones, period.

AND ANOTHER THING, WHAT DO YOU MEAN AIR SLASH FLINCHES AREN'T ENOUGH TO CONVINCE YOU

On a Hyper Offense-geared pokemon.

Who becomes more and more unoutspeedable the more turns it's out.

Who has counterplay in not being able to OHKO mons with phazing moves

Do you think that it being able to get a free turn with damage 30% of the time it clicks a stab move is balanced

I will share some calculations here. See if you can see the issue.

+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Air Slash vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 144-171 (46.9 - 55.7%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Cyclizar: 172-204 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 244-288 (58 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 195-229 (42 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 232-274 (50 - 59%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Milotic: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Milotic: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Lets run through all of these. Hoodra will come last as spD hoodra is your "best chance" usually


Cyclizar: Needs 1 air slash flinch to die, so 30% chance of dying upon being sent in, also gets cleanly 2HKO'd if it switches into +1 bug buzz.

Hippo: Needs 1 air slash flinch to be 2HKO'd. 30% chance of happening.

Vaporeon: Has the best(?) chance of removing the throat spray, so it has the best chances of surviving, needs to NOT have any chip on it whatsoever, cause if so, and it comes in on a +1 Yanmega, that's 1 air slash flinch into GGs.

Milotic: honestly has the best chances. Props to a mon I did not know had any sauce anymore. Dies in 2 air slash flinches.

So, your best splashable mons who can PHAZE. Not KILL, PHAZE, get 2HKO'd cleanly 30% of the time.

and your other two options are an NU wishpasser mon and Milotic, famed for having 1.87% usage last month.

And finally:
+1 252+ SpA Tera Ground Yanmega Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 120 HP / 88+ SpD Goodra-Hisui: 240-284 (72.5 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

congrats everyone, we found the one pokemon who can reliably phaze Yanmega. Give it up for bulk!

+1 252+ SpA Tera Ground Yanmega Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 120 HP / 88+ SpD Goodra-Hisui: 240-284 (72.5 - 85.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes

However, the Hoodra NEEDS to be healthy or else there will be hell to pay, so don't get chipped!


In case you haven't noticed, these "checks" to yanmega are literally relying on luck to not get killed and have the rest of the game stolen away because the bug entered the field. There IS no reliable counterplay to yanmega because you can just
outskill your opponent and steal the game

Also who cares if it's a "tera hog" bro i'm winning the game
and if i'm not then hold this armor cannon fool, like yanmega even if it goes down blasts big holes in the opponent's team

And I want to make it perfectly clear that this is not just an issue on ladder, or an issue in tours. This is a problem that affects everyone equally. It literally does not matter if you are the better player, you can just lose because you got burned by scald essentially. This is not simply an issue from an uncommon playstyle because this is a super common playstyle, that is easy to pick up and win with. Again, this is a problem at EVERY level of play, killing tier leaders and low ladder gamers alike.

Beating Yanmega is not an act that requires much skill, but it absolutely requires you to change how you approach teambuilding to an insane amount, and even your counterplay has counterplay on the HO team's side, from Aurora Veil, to Tidy Up Maushold, to Taunt Leads, to scarf rock blast terrakion even.


There also is like.
The fact that I hate facing chansey on ladder just in general?
Like I don't want to play nothing but chansey + forre or chansey + quagsire cores whenever I play just because some HO gooner got reqs and voted DNB because they wanted to keep getting free wins


I think all of this along with air slash's mere existence means that if I ever make reqs then I will absolutely vote BAN. I do not want to play a tier in which I can both win and lose on a 30% chance. There is no "risk management". There is no "true counterplay". You cannot "outmaneuver" every single game. Yanmega is not always "crippled" by rocks, nor is it's role as a cleaner any diminished.

Have a great day RU, and I hope to see you all on the right side of history.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ru-2247977442
yanmega beats a supposed counter, this is why you run inner focus guys plzzzzzz
 
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Capture d'écran 2024-11-21 115655.png


:ribombee::vaporeon::goodra-hisui::weezing-galar::krookodile::armarouge:
So, I wanted to build a team around Quiver Dance bee today, and I decided to go with a good ol' Wish Balance featuring Vaporeon/Goodra-H/Weezing, Krookodile to set rocks and a secondary physical sponge + knocker + threatens steels, finishing with Armarouge for a special attacker that beats steels and can even come in zapdos to tank something and immediately be threatening. Double status Weezing allows us to burn Steels and Toxic the rest, especially Volcanion. This is extremely important as a Toxic'd Volcanion is unable to wall Vaporeon indefinitely. I went with Covert Cloak on Vaporeon and Assault Vest DTail Goodra-H specifically to tech against Yanmega, allowing Vaporeon to not be flinched by Air Slash (and not receive a SpDef drop from Bug Buzz, because that can happen too), while AV Hoodra is guaranteed has a 90% chance of phazing Yanmega out. Vaporeon's spread is 252 HP/200+ Def/56 SpDef, so it can also handle Armarouge in a pinch and counters even Banded Entei (Covert Cloak protecting from Sacred Fire burns is actually so clutch, I love it)

Now lets add :yanmega: tera to the equation
::Chansey: does the same thing post tera
::Empoleon: :Shuca berry: can ice beam it
::Goodra-hisui: Max spattack :assault vest: clicks draco, whilst bulky :assault vest: can click dtail (which is a lot more dicey as i will cover soon)
::Milotic: does the same thing
::Vaporeon: still beats it if :covert cloak:
As explained by colorednaem before, these are two of the main Yanmega answers in the tier. Surely, this means Yanmega won't be sweeping me if I play carefully, right?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ru-2248156957-2b6w8idsfea80b5s5h4a46q1pyx9vhupw?p2

Well, the game starts and Krookodile KOs Kleavor lead but not without setting rocks on my side first. I can't set rocks myself because Kleavor would KO or near KO Krookodile with CC, who I need to be healthy to check Bisharp later. My opponent sends in Maushold, which forces Krook out and means that I will effectively never be able to set rocks for the remainder of the game (important for Yanmega!!). My opponent tries to end the game on the spot with Tera Fire Regidrago (thanks ladder), but I fortunately brought Toxic on Geezing so I can take care of it with good switches, at the cost of Ribombee.

On turn 16, I need a bit of chip on Bisharp before Krookodile can KO with Earthquake, so I send in Vaporeon to chip with Scald. Unfortunately, no burn means I have to sacrifice Goodra in order to not lose to Bisharp. I am forced to Dragon Tail, else it can set up another Swords Dance and +5 Sucker has a chance of KOing Krookodile. This means, however, that Bisharp put Goodra at range of Bug Buzz, so Yanmega gets to +1/+1 for free while KOing one of my 2 Yanmega answers.

However, I did not expect Bug Buzz to do half my Vaporeon's HP, and because Vaporeon was chipped for 18% (this is effectively Stealth Rock chip, 12% is enough for that to happen), it is somehow 2HKOed by Bug Buzz. This means that Yanmega effectively forced Tera out of Vaporeon without even expending Tera itself, and that's supposed to be a counter (that I had to keep at max health at all costs during the entire game). Granted, my Vaporeon is not max SpDef, but Def investment on Vaporeon is needed for... well, everything else in the tier! Had Regidrago clicked Scale Shot on my Vaporeon switch, I would have lost the game.
Bisharp forcing a Goodra sacrifice put me in a tough spot to handle Yanmega after, which is the objective of HO. This is a common situation.


So, is my team "lazy" ? Did I make a huge mistake by wanting to bring a tried and true core specifically teched for Yanmega? I've heard on the Discord that my team is ass from the get go because I have a Cloak Vaporeon and a AV Goodra, but... I ask you, why did I bring Cloak Vaporeon and AV Goodra, you think?

---

With that out of the way, I would like to have feen explain how Yanmega "punishes lazy building" and how this improves the tier. There is certainly a discussion to be had, but writing one liners on Discord with no further explanation ain't it. These threads are meant to discuss the mon and whether we should ban it, let's use it more please, especially if you're a council member.

I see that no one from the council has said a single word on here, and only 2 out of the 9 council members have reqs as of me writing this post (we are less than 48 hours before voting happens).
 
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So, is my team "lazy" ?
Yes, it is. Your rocker loses to all common HO leads, which also all deny you hazards. You also have no way of punishing Defog, and Vaporeon gives free turns for Bike / any Defog user to come in and do what they want. So vs HO you're never getting rocks up, and vs balance (which Yanmega can definitely work on) you're not keeping rocks up. Your main Yanmega check (AV Hoodra) is obliterated by chip damage and in particular Spikes, and you use Defog as hazard control so to remove Spikes you lose your own rocks.

However, I did not expect Bug Buzz to do half my Vaporeon's HP, and because Vaporeon was chipped for 18% (this is effectively Stealth Rock chip, 12% is enough for that to happen), it is somehow 2HKOed by Bug Buzz
What do you mean you didn't expect it? Or it's "somehow 2HKOed"? Unless you don't calc while playing this is literally what it does...

+1 252+ SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz (90 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Vaporeon: 220-259 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

Your teams only Bisharp answer is either burn with Scald or Intimidate Krook (which is also your rocker) so...yeah. Of course Bisharp + Yanmega is going to destroy you. A team with a defensive core this passive (so loses to other balance) which also can't keep rocks up vs HO (so loses to Yanmega) and also has no Bisharp answer is most certainly lazy building, and definitely not the argument to ban Yanmega you think it is
 
Yes, it is. Your rocker loses to all common HO leads, which also all deny you hazards.
And yet Stealth Rock Krookodile is still used at all levels, this doesn't define laziness

You also have no way of punishing Defog, and Vaporeon gives free turns for Bike / any Defog user to come in and do what they want.
I don't plan on relying on hazards, and I use Defog myself so it's not as if I planned on maintaining my own hazards consistently anyway (the opponent defogging helps me as well on that regard). Armarouge can punish bike spin too.

Your main Yanmega check (AV Hoodra) is obliterated by chip damage and in particular Spikes, and you use Defog as hazard control so to remove Spikes you lose your own rocks.
Yes, this is what Defog does

What do you mean you didn't expect it? Or it's "somehow 2HKOed"? Unless you don't calc while playing this is literally what it does...
This was to point out that a mon who's considered one of Yanmega's best answers has to commit fully into that role

Your teams only Bisharp answer is either burn with Scald or Intimidate Krook
It is true that it is one of the team's weakness, it was a first draft and I'll change the team to better handle it. ty for pointing it out tho

A team with a defensive core this passive (so loses to other balance) which also can't keep rocks up vs HO (so loses to Yanmega) and also has no Bisharp answer is most certainly lazy building,
not being able to keep rocks up vs HO is the goal of the archetype, there is bound to be situations where it happens... although I do agree I should use another rocker. This also implies that you absolutely need to keep rocks up vs Yanmega at all times (not easy to do because taunt lead + sometimes maushold), which could definitely be an argument for both sides.

and definitely not the argument to ban Yanmega you think it is
Is it not though? If anything, this shows that handling every HO threat available + accounting for Yanmega bs is very difficult and constraining...
 
This was to point out that a mon who's considered one of Yanmega's best answers has to commit fully into that role
If you just run spdef vap + something else over hoodra which can beat bisharp then you're totally fine here. This is literally exactly what feen was talking about, it was a lazy build and with a few tweaks there's no issue with Yanmega
 
If you just run spdef vap + something else over hoodra which can beat bisharp then you're totally fine here. This is literally exactly what feen was talking about, it was a lazy build and with a few tweaks there's no issue with Yanmega

It is true that swapping Hoodra for something else would solve the Bisharp issue, however I would need something that handles both Bisharp and Yanmega, which is not a wide pool of mons ; and if I focus my efforts on Bisharp, then Yanmega becomes a problem if coupled with other mons ; for example, Armarouge + Yanmega becomes much more difficult to handle reliably, since the pool of mons handling Yanmega + Armarouge is also slim.
I do understand where you're coming from though, and I feel like it could be a starting point to discuss how the balance archetype kinda has trouble finding its footing right now. How much Yanmega weighs in that is what we're trying to determine ultimately, but these cores of Yanmega/Bisharp/Armarouge are what makes HO very strong right now after all. The question is, when do we depart from "laziness" and enter unreasonable teambuilding restrictions. Ultimately, I do believe that banning Yanmega would make balance viable again as it would open up more offensive counterplay to these slower threats (Bisharp/Armarouge), as Yanmega's status of un-outspeedable is what makes this such a difficult task. Then we wouldn't be forced to swap in-between the very few Yanmega counters available.
 
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