Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk

:Ogerpon: was always balanced out by a somewhat weak stab type, :Ogerpon-cornerstone: its basically the same, except for the fact it has a 100 damage 100% accuracy rock stab, giving it a combination of stabs thats only walled by the steel type(and koraidon ig). Oh whats that? It also gets strong fighting coverage in low kick, swords dance for breaking, and knock off which it doesnt even need to run! All of that while hitting an above average 110 speed tier. Slap heavy-duty-boots on top of its sturdy ability and :Scizor: goes from check-to-sac, also fair mention that :Scizor: is already busy checking other strong mons in :Ninetales-alola:, :Latios: :Hydrapple: :iron leaves:, :metagross: and :garchomp: kinda, low health :greninja: and every other mon. So odds are if you sacrifice your Scizor to it you might as well be just making your team weaker to another pokemon.
 
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:Ogerpon: was always balanced out by a somewhat weak stab type, :Ogerpon-cornerstone: its basically the same, except for the fact it has a 100 damage 100% accuracy rock stab, giving it a combination of stabs thats only walled by the steel type(and koraidon ig). Oh whats that? It also gets strong fighting coverage in low kick, swords dance for breaking, and knock off which it doesnt even need to run! All of that while hitting an above average 110 speed tier. Slap heavy-duty-boots on top of its sturdy ability and :Scizor: goes from check-to-sac, also fair mention that :Scizor: is already busy checking other strong mons in :Ninetales-alola:, :Latios: :Hydrapple: :iron leaves:, :metagross: and :garchomp: kinda, low health :greninja: and every other mon. So odds are if you sacrifice your Scizor to it you might as well be just making your team weaker to another pokemon.
Its item locked which means it cant run HDB making it weak to hazards and :scizor: is a pretty solid check as long as you dont hard swap it in while it has sturdy active. However it is a really strong mon that threatens a lot of the metagame right now.
 
Its item locked which means it cant run HDB making it weak to hazards and :scizor: is a pretty solid check as long as you dont hard swap it in while it has sturdy active. However it is a really strong mon that threatens a lot of the metagame right now.
i didnt knew it was item locked i feel a lil dumb rn

regardless i think this mon should be further examinated in the future, maybe in a suspect test.
 
Max SpDef Empoleon has been putting in a lot of work for me. It totally stonewalls Gren, Moth, Lati (the Luster Purge SpDef drop has the added benefit of triggering Competitive). A surprise Flying tera also lets you live a hit from the physical Grounds that tend to give it trouble and Surf back. You can even run Haze for special setup sweepers like Manaphy and Sinistcha. It has great synergy with PhysDef Moltres too.

Definitely better than it was in DLC1
 
I’m starting to think that ogerpon-c is ban worthy, not just because of the sweeper set, but because there’s just no good checks to its utility set.


:Ogerpon-Cornerstone: (F) @ :Cornerstone Mask:
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Horn Leech
- U-turn
- Encore

I’ve been using this set and in every single game I’ve played with it, it has been amazing. No matter what. I almost always lead off with it and either gets a kill in the first few turns or it has done enough disrupting to just u-turn out. It’s so reliable at just decimating teams that it doesn’t need swords dance or coverage, encore is good enough to harass any defensive mon that thought they were safe. Literally, name 1 defensive pokemon that can withstand 2 assaults from utility ogerpon besides tankchomp (although hazards take care of that problem and a lack of reliable recovery just means it takes 3 exchanges to kill it).

You’d think offensive counter play would more available, but in practice ogerpon is effective at destroying everything that by the time you’ve forced it into a position where it can be revenge killed, a chunk of your team is missing and ogerpon can just switch into another pokemon so it can come back later. You can just lead off with it against offensive teams to claim a kill due to its solid natural bulk and its access to sturdy if needed. I thought hazards would help limit this but I’ve used it alongside alomomola to just wish it back to full or simply clear hazards with a treads/weezing-g. While it can be checked by a small list of pokemon, most of these guys can be outlasted fairly reliably since this set thrives on more bulky teams that can do that.

While you can play around this thing, it feels like it just controls every game it’s in. It’s on all of the teams I’ve used because of how effective it is. I don’t think it will be banned for being op in the traditional sense of “click button hulk smash”, but I do think it’ll come to warp the tier around itself and make the tier less fun as a whole.
 

ASKOV

Explode
is a Top Tiering Contributoris a Past SPL Champion
one thing worth noting that people seem to not be taking into consideration when judging ceruledge brokeness is that while yes, offensive sd sets with weak armor is a big part on why we should be looking at it, it can still run a fairly threatening set with a bulkier approach in bu taunt with defensive tera (normal goobs other ceruledges not running cc, fairy avoids getting dtailed by tankchomp, grass prob fine to flip the mu vs some ground/water types, etc), which while yes there are some checks in common depending on what tera/item you decide to use, it can also turn some of sd sets usual checks into setup fodder (mandi folding to fairy taunt for example)
 
:metagross: is a really great addition to the UU tier after its nice buffs in gen 9. Possibly the best newcomer in terms of not being overpowered and still very strong.

His band set is almost impossible to switch into and he has great natural bulk. With the additions of Heavy slam and Psychic Fangs, which actually destroys screens, hes gonna be a UU mon this gen.
 
Here are some quick thoughts about the current meta.

:chesnaught: Chesnaught is underrated in the current meta. It beats relevant spinners such as Iron Treads and Quaquaval lacking Brave Bird while setting up Spikes in return, counters Sludge Bomb Amoonguss, checks meta-defining physical attackers such as Ogerpon-C, Lokix, and Scizor, and provides utility in Knock Off. It will probably get better over time once Ceruledge gets banned (dies to +2 Poltergeist lol), but in the meantime Tera Water soft-checks it for one more turn before dying to Poltergeist. Overall a great mon that should be used more.

:mandibuzz: With hazard removal being as dire as ever, Mandibuzz has risen to become one of the relevant Defoggers. A versatile mon that can go either physically or specially defensive depending on your needs, and a great support movepool though that means it suffers slightly from 4MSS since besides Roost, it also wants Knock Off / Foul Play / Toxic / U-turn / Defog.

:suicune: I also think the ladder in general is not ready for Suicune just yet. Without Volcanion / Taunt / Encore / Roar, it finds itself decent opportunities to go in and start setting up if the opponent does not play aggressive enough. A simple set of Sub / CM / Protect / Scald allows it to PP stall the opponent with Pressure, which is a common occurrence since more often than not the opponent will respond by either engaging in CM wars with Sinistcha, Keldeo, etc, or set up with Garganacl. It can also run other moves such as Roar / RestTalk / Ice Beam, and has a variety of defensive Teras to choose from like Poison / Fairy / Dragon.

Some general thoughts on Stall: I don’t think Stall is in a great place right now. There are still way too many threats to account for, and stall teams typically have several Water and Steel types which get destroyed by Garganacl if they do not run Covert Cloak. Spikes are everywhere but yet it is no longer as simple as just slapping Boots onto every mon. You also have Blissey losing to Iron Moth long term when Fiery Dance has a 100% proc rate, and max def Quagsire getting minimally 3HKO by Loaded Dice Scale Shot Garchomp. Take Heart Manaphy removes status and is overall a menace to play against, balanced only by its middling speed.

All in all, the meta has definitely improved after the initial wave of bans, maybe keep a closer eye on Ceruledge for now. I look forward to see how the meta develops over time.
 
talked abt the mon a bit in uucord earlier and figured id make a quick post regarding a mon i havent rly seen much discourse abt:

:sv/raikou:
Raikou @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Scald
- Tera Blast
- Calm Mind

This is the set I've used and what I generally consider to be Raikou's most viable set. The key thing that makes raikou a usable mon is the speed tier, putting it above the crowded base 110s and below. Elec is also an interesting typing coz it gives you decent opportunities to cm up vs the common flyers like torn & zap. The primary issue w kou though is that you don't really immediately threaten latios, rockpon, kommo o, & chomper, hence the addition of tblast fairy. tera fairy also offers what is generally just a v respectable defensive typing which opens up more opportunities to pull off cms. The natural concern w elec/water/fairy coverage is that ur unable to threaten amoong, but I feel like as far as mons go, amoong is one of the easier 1s to actively abuse in the builder. The reward for teraing kou is actually pretty good, that said, the reliance on tera to hit a bunch of relevant targets is a fairly notable drawback. kou is certainly not a top tier threat nor is it a significant part of the meta, but I do think that there is p legit merit to it and depending on how the tier develops I can see it being super solid. I think if we ever see a point where latios leaves the tier, then running volt > tblast becomes considerably easier and if Gren leaves, then Torn-T becomes the fastest natural speed control and Kou takes advantage of it quite well, only time will tell though.
 
some sets I use in UU
Swampert @ Assault Vest
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Flip Turn
This :Swampert: set is made for being tanky and not giving a crap about your non-grass moves

Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flip Turn
- Draco Meteor
- Luster Purge/Psychic/Psyshock
- Aura Sphere
I use Choice Scarf :Latios: as it can outspeed everything unboosted, and Speed Ties Tera :Ogerpon:, Booster Energy Speed :Iron Moth:, Choice Scarf :Gengar:, and outspeeds Specs :Latios:, :Greninja:, and even Scarf :Keldeo:.

Iron Moth @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Fiery Dance
- Dazzling Gleam/Sludge Wave/Discharge
- Energy Ball/Flash Cannon
I love Booster Energy Special Attack :Iron Moth: with Agility because it is fast and it hits like a freight train

Give me your thoughts!
 
Indigo disk gives SV a prize in the form of my favorite pokemon, :feraligatr:

Gatr has had problems since he was at USUM UU and BDSP OU, he was easily tanked by bulky water pokemon, he only has Crunch to hit water pokemon neutrally, but Tera's mechanism in SV allows him to beat bulky water pokemon with Tera Blast


Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Grass / Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Ice Punch
- Tera Blast
- Dragon Dance

Tera Grass is more recommended than electric where UU has rotom-wash and lots of water/grass pokemon roaming around. Gatr is best played in screen teams (as long as light clay is legal) with scizor, tornadus-therian, etc.
 

gulch

formerly Melt Gibson
is a Forum Moderator
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Alright, time to talk about the stupid fucking frog.

Greninja is dangerous to the tier's health and needs to be removed. The way in which Battle Bond functions in conjunction with Greninja's natural speed and surgical precision in picking off weakened Pokemon with any amount of decent positioning results in a stranglehold on the teambuilder.

I: The Offense Problem
Offensive structures are largely decimated by Greninja at team preview. Unboosted, Greninja is the second fastest viable Pokemon available in the tier. The only Pokemon faster than it, Ribombee, is somewhat limited in the roles it can perform, and is most often utilized as a suicide lead on Sticky Webs structures, leaving it unable to revenge kill Greninja. In addition, our Choice Scarf users are dubious and largely do not serve to check Greninja due to Battle Bond's +1 Speed in conjunction with Greninja being naturally faster than the vast majority of the tier. In addition, the +1 Sp.Atk assures that Greninja will be able to secure kills on nearly anything that is placed in front of it. So, how do offensive teams cope?

:keldeo: :azumarill:
The only things remotely resembling stopgaps to Greninja. Keldeo and Azumarill's low weight in conjunction with a natural typing that is defensively suited to take on Greninja and able to deal substantial damage in return allow them to serve as functional checks. However, +1 Life Orb Grass Knot still deals significant damage to both, with a minimum range of 43% before boosts. Therefore, not only do these Pokemon need to come in on Greninja at an opportune time, but they also need to be healthy enough to withstand a Grass Knot after hazards, making them more often than not very shaky.

:lokix: :arcanine-hisui:
Disclaimer, Keldeo also falls into this category, but the only new thing I have to say about it here is that it clicks Vacuum Wave sometimes. It also doesn't suffer as much from the problems I'm going to outline a bit later and is a bit unique compared to Lokix and Arcanine-H since it's the only thing that has priority that hits Greninja and can also defensively stand up to it. Lokix and Hisui K9 are here because their priority spam (FIMP and ESpeed, respectively), kills Greninja and also beats out Water Shuriken. However, they're not nearly as splashable as these teams would like them to be, and often end up being very predictable in what they aim to do. Hisui K9 also has an additional, unique host of problems, including a meta that's much more hostile to it than Lokix, sharing Lokix's problems with splashability, and sometimes needing to feed sacks to Greninja for Life Orb chip or burn Tera in order to actually kill it with ESpeed. Again, these checks to Greninja that offensive teams are forced to resort to are defined by one word: shaky.

II: The Balance Problem
Balance has a similar problem, where instead of being unable to eat a hit from Greninja, the checks present are largely worn down over the course of the game until one of them is able to be picked off, proccing Battle Bond. While they do have more options to deal with this, there is still a largely noticeable strain on the teambuilder present.

:tornadus-therian:
This is a check 70% of the time if it's healthy. Specs kills Greninja outright (if it hits), and Nasty Plot or other sets with Sp.Atk investment kill with Focus Blast (if they hit). However, Greninja is faster, and Ice Beam does a maximum of 93%, meaning both variants must be healthy and in the case of Specs, there can not be hazards up. If Greninja is boosted, Ice Beam kills outright. Assuming a 1v1, AV Torn needs to hit one Hurricane in two attempts (91% chance) and then U-Turn. If Greninja has procced Battle Bond, things get a lot more interesting. Oh yeah, baby. We're breaking out a table for this interaction.

How Healthy Is Gren?Does Torn Have Access To Tera?What Does Torn Need To Do?
Greater than or equal to 81% HP​
No​
Crit Hurricane lol​
Greater than or equal to 81% HP​
Yes​
Tera, Hit a Hurricane, and dodge a Hydro Pump. If Hydro Pump hits, depending on the roll, Torn is in kill range of Dark Pulse.​
Less than 81% HP​
No​
Depending on HP threshold, hit a Hurricane and don't get low rolled. If Gren is at 54% or lower, U-Turn kills.​
Less than 81% HP​
Yes​
Tera, and then depending on HP threshold, hit a Hurricane and don't get low rolled. If Gren is at 54% or lower, U-Turn kills.​

This is loose, and interactions in an actual game are much more fluid than the way I've described them here, but it works for the sake of a text post. The point is, even if it's AV, Torn needs the general state of the game as well as its interactions with Greninja to go in its favor if it wants to serve as an actual check. While Regenerator does help, this can still be difficult due to the multitude of situations where Torn will need Tera, as well as it taking 25% from Stealth Rock.

:empoleon:
Largely the same as Keldeo and Azumarill before (they also apply here). Actually just a genuinely solid check, unless it's lost its Boots and there are hazards up, it's not even taking half from boosted Greninja and has Roar to phase it out. The latter part here is huge, since this puts Battle Bond out of commission for the entire rest of the game, although you do still have... everything else about Greninja to deal with. However, it does come with the issue of occupying your Water and Steel slots, both of which are highly contested on balance structures, and therefore it's not nearly as splashable as it would like to be.

:lokix:
Again, strong priority that kills Greninja and functions as overall speed control. However, in this case, Lokix is much less splashable, often taking up the spot of Pokemon with much better roles to provide to the team or with general better matchup spreads in order to make sure that the team doesn't get minced by Battle Bond. It has strong competition with Scizor in a decent amount of these structures as well, and can often be overwhelmed due to serving as a check to several other pressing threats like Ogerpon-C and Latios.

III: It's Consistent With Our Logic
Blaziken: Ban. This thing has like 2 defensive answers and any mon where your counterplay is "let it die to Flare Blitz recoil as it kills 3 of your team members" is just not fostering healthy interactions. Shoutout to the Tera Ghost Blissey I ran into that made me OHKO myself.
While I was writing this and thinking about the previous voting slate, the general sentiments from people who were pro-ban on Blaziken stuck out to me a lot, but this line from Aislinn in particular really made something in my brain click. Replace Flare Blitz with Life Orb in that sentence and that's generally how a lot of Greninja interactions play out, waiting for it to cut its own HP enough that it's in kill range of whatever priority you might have. Adding this to the general bind it forces on teambuilding, forcing many structures into less than optimal picks or wishy-washy checks, and I feel like it's rather clear to see that Greninja's presence on the metagame currently is not a good one.

IV: Thanks For Reading
QED, nuke the frog from orbit, thanks :)

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 159-187 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 237-281 (73.3 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 177-208 (51.9 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 260-307 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 263-309 (65 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Arcanine-Hisui Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 112-132 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Tera Normal Arcanine-Hisui Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 168-198 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Arcanine-Hisui Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 166-196 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Arcanine-Hisui Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 249-294 (87.3 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 153-183 (41.1 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 103-122 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
 
New post to share what I've been enjoying in the tier.


Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fairy / Water
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Iron Defense
- Salt Cure
- Body Press

Garganacl is amazing. It's probably one of the best bullshit-proof Pokémon in the tier and an incredible asset vs HO archetypes. Iron Defense + Tera Fairy allow it to handle threats such as Ceruledge or Garchomp while Salt Cure is amazing to make progress and cripple opponent's foes. It's also really great to pivot into threats such as Zapdos, Tornadus-T, Iron Moth or Kommo-o. I also feel like it's not as dumb as it was before (for now at least), because we have more Pokémon to play around and PP stall its Salt Cure (like Hydrapple which is a great check to it imo). It's a really good Pokémon to have for Balance or more oriented defensive teams and a good win condition if needed.


Greninja-Bond @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Water Shuriken
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam

I already talked about Battle Bond Greninja in my last post but I'd like to add something : Tera Stellar ! Tera Stellar Greninja is frankly insane, the damage output thanks to Life Orb + Battle Bond + Tera Stellar is just disgusting and allow it to nuke a ton of stuff such as Tera Water Keldeo or Mandibuzz :

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Stellar Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Keldeo: 315-372 (97.5 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Stellar Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 406-481 (95.9 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO


I really think Greninja shines a lot in this metagame and it works well in both offensive and more balanced teams, its speed tier is trully key right now and I think it's a really addition to the current metagame.


That's all for today, the rest of this post is an answer to the post above mine.
View attachment 591189

Alright, time to talk about the stupid fucking frog.

Greninja is dangerous to the tier's health and needs to be removed. The way in which Battle Bond functions in conjunction with Greninja's natural speed and surgical precision in picking off weakened Pokemon with any amount of decent positioning results in a stranglehold on the teambuilder.

I: The Offense Problem
Offensive structures are largely decimated by Greninja at team preview. Unboosted, Greninja is the second fastest viable Pokemon available in the tier. The only Pokemon faster than it, Ribombee, is somewhat limited in the roles it can perform, and is most often utilized as a suicide lead on Sticky Webs structures, leaving it unable to revenge kill Greninja. In addition, our Choice Scarf users are dubious and largely do not serve to check Greninja due to Battle Bond's +1 Speed in conjunction with Greninja being naturally faster than the vast majority of the tier. In addition, the +1 Sp.Atk assures that Greninja will be able to secure kills on nearly anything that is placed in front of it. So, how do offensive teams cope?

:keldeo: :azumarill:
The only things remotely resembling stopgaps to Greninja. Keldeo and Azumarill's low weight in conjunction with a natural typing that is defensively suited to take on Greninja and able to deal substantial damage in return allow them to serve as functional checks. However, +1 Life Orb Grass Knot still deals significant damage to both, with a minimum range of 43% before boosts. Therefore, not only do these Pokemon need to come in on Greninja at an opportune time, but they also need to be healthy enough to withstand a Grass Knot after hazards, making them more often than not very shaky.

:lokix: :arcanine-hisui:
Disclaimer, Keldeo also falls into this category, but the only new thing I have to say about it here is that it clicks Vacuum Wave sometimes. It also doesn't suffer as much from the problems I'm going to outline a bit later and is a bit unique compared to Lokix and Arcanine-H since it's the only thing that has priority that hits Greninja and can also defensively stand up to it. Lokix and Hisui K9 are here because their priority spam (FIMP and ESpeed, respectively), kills Greninja and also beats out Water Shuriken. However, they're not nearly as splashable as these teams would like them to be, and often end up being very predictable in what they aim to do. Hisui K9 also has an additional, unique host of problems, including a meta that's much more hostile to it than Lokix, sharing Lokix's problems with splashability, and sometimes needing to feed sacks to Greninja for Life Orb chip or burn Tera in order to actually kill it with ESpeed. Again, these checks to Greninja that offensive teams are forced to resort to are defined by one word: shaky.
I strongly disagree with that post for many reasons.

First of all, while Offenses can't take a lot of hits from Greninja (which isn't fully true but I'll talk about that later), they're not designed for that to begin with and the same could be applied for threats such as Latios, Ceruledge or Kommo-o. HO/Offense teams are teams which are trading their threats till the end. The purpose of those archetypes (outside of Bulky Offense) isn't to be able to check defensively X or Y threats. With that in mind, I think it's pretty poor to say that "Offensive structures are largely decimated by Greninja at team preview". Like hell no, they have plenty of threats to trade with it and since Greninja is supposed to be this much of an issue for them, then it's a win for HO to be able to trade 1 one 1. Also I would like to point out that Greninja is pretty frail and super weak to chip damages induced by Life Orb recoil or even Entry Hazards so it's not that tough to punish it.


Ogerpon-Cornerstone is able to 1v1 Greninja thanks to Sturdy. Unboosted or Boosted, it doesn't matter, Greninja can't win that 1v1 without taking the path of Dark Pulse flinch / Ice Beam freeze. I already see people complaining that you need to keep Sturdy, well yeah, that's the point of quite some Pokémon inside HO archetypes which are using Focus Sash (such as Ceruledge) and most HO are using some kind of Entry Hazards detterent (such as Taunt, Rapid Spin or Tidy Up).


Greninja needs LO + Stealth Rock/1 layer of Spikes + Battle Bond boost + Tera Stellar/Dark to be able to OHKO Manaphy. Otherwise Manaphy can handle a hit and retaliate back with either Energy Ball/Dazzling Gleam (75-90% and 67-80%).


Pretty similar to Manaphy, Moltres-Galar can pressure Greninja. Unboosted variants can't OHKO without Stealth Rock + comitting Tera Stellar/Water. On the other hand, Hurricane does at least 70% from Timid Moltres-Galar and up to 90% for a max roll from Modest variants.

I also would like to highlight the fact that some HO archetypes have even more tools to handle Greninja. Veil/Screens offense enable even more Pokémon to take hits from Greninja thanks to Light Screen support. Even its setters (Ninetales-A/Grimmsnarl) can put some kind of pressure on Greninja thanks to Freeze Dry / Moonblast or Spirit Break variants of Grimmsnarl. Both those two Pokémon can take a hit from an unboosted Greninja and retaliate really well (outside of Sludge Wave variants which are super rare even tho better imo than Grass Knot), thus forcing out Greninja. Sticky Web HO are also an issue for Greninja since it lowers its speed, thus making it way more managable.

II: The Balance Problem
Balance has a similar problem, where instead of being unable to eat a hit from Greninja, the checks present are largely worn down over the course of the game until one of them is able to be picked off, proccing Battle Bond. While they do have more options to deal with this, there is still a largely noticeable strain on the teambuilder present.

:tornadus-therian:
This is a check 70% of the time if it's healthy. Specs kills Greninja outright (if it hits), and Nasty Plot or other sets with Sp.Atk investment kill with Focus Blast (if they hit). However, Greninja is faster, and Ice Beam does a maximum of 93%, meaning both variants must be healthy and in the case of Specs, there can not be hazards up. If Greninja is boosted, Ice Beam kills outright. Assuming a 1v1, AV Torn needs to hit one Hurricane in two attempts (91% chance) and then U-Turn. If Greninja has procced Battle Bond, things get a lot more interesting. Oh yeah, baby. We're breaking out a table for this interaction.

How Healthy Is Gren?Does Torn Have Access To Tera?What Does Torn Need To Do?
Greater than or equal to 81% HP​
No​
Crit Hurricane lol​
Greater than or equal to 81% HP​
Yes​
Tera, Hit a Hurricane, and dodge a Hydro Pump. If Hydro Pump hits, depending on the roll, Torn is in kill range of Dark Pulse.​
Less than 81% HP​
No​
Depending on HP threshold, hit a Hurricane and don't get low rolled. If Gren is at 54% or lower, U-Turn kills.​
Less than 81% HP​
Yes​
Tera, and then depending on HP threshold, hit a Hurricane and don't get low rolled. If Gren is at 54% or lower, U-Turn kills.​

This is loose, and interactions in an actual game are much more fluid than the way I've described them here, but it works for the sake of a text post. The point is, even if it's AV, Torn needs the general state of the game as well as its interactions with Greninja to go in its favor if it wants to serve as an actual check. While Regenerator does help, this can still be difficult due to the multitude of situations where Torn will need Tera, as well as it taking 25% from Stealth Rock.

:empoleon:
Largely the same as Keldeo and Azumarill before (they also apply here). Actually just a genuinely solid check, unless it's lost its Boots and there are hazards up, it's not even taking half from boosted Greninja and has Roar to phase it out. The latter part here is huge, since this puts Battle Bond out of commission for the entire rest of the game, although you do still have... everything else about Greninja to deal with. However, it does come with the issue of occupying your Water and Steel slots, both of which are highly contested on balance structures, and therefore it's not nearly as splashable as it would like to be.

:lokix:
Again, strong priority that kills Greninja and functions as overall speed control. However, in this case, Lokix is much less splashable, often taking up the spot of Pokemon with much better roles to provide to the team or with general better matchup spreads in order to make sure that the team doesn't get minced by Battle Bond. It has strong competition with Scizor in a decent amount of these structures as well, and can often be overwhelmed due to serving as a check to several other pressing threats like Ogerpon-C and Latios.
Same issues can be found in this part of the post where I can not found any mention of Balance staples such as Hydrapple, Alomomola, AV Hoopa-Unbound or even Goodra-Hisui..all those Pokémon can take hits from Greninja and punish it back in some kind of measure. Alomomola can stall out some Life Orb recoil effectively while Hoopa-Unbound and Goodra-Hisui straight up win any kind of 1v1 even vs +1 Tera Stellar LO Greninja. Last but not least, while Hydrapple does fear Ice Beam / Sludge Wave it's able to handle Grass Knot variants pretty well and can even Tera to remove Greninja with ease. Tera Fairy/Water Garganacl is also a decent check thanks to both Salt Cure and Body Press and it works well in Balance. I really feel like the post doesn't fully explore the wide variety of things that can be played in Balance and don't mention at all Alomomola Balance which are really potent in the current metagame. That's unfortunate.

Greninja isn't some magic Pokémon which is able to win games on its own. It requires some support and isn't able to snowball as effectively as Blaziken since it doesn't need any KO to be able to perform well.
 
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:Iron Moth:
I am more convinced that Iron Moth isn't going to be the healthiest presence in the tier, at least probably not long-term. Personally the only set I feel this way about is the Booster Energy Speed variants, typically running 4 attacks. I also want to highlight I am mostly speaking from the perspective of the person using Iron Moth.

There are many instances where you can bring it in to go for Fiery Dance and pick off what is in front of it or force it out at the very least. IF Moth gets the immediate boost from the first Fiery Dance is where my main issue lies because it creates too much variance when it comes to handling it. Your usual pivot into it could now be in 2HKO or OHKO range from its coverage, this being further worsened if it proceeds to get another boost and you're incapable of OHKOing it.
+1 132 SpA Iron Moth Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 290-342 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 132 SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 208 HP / 132 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 144-169 (41 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 132 SpA Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 132 SpA Tera Grass Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 206-246 (50.9 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I do not condone full SpD Tyranitar, just showing it...

I feel like some of these highlight that a bit and it becomes a bit worse when you also factor in tera. With the early SpA boost Iron Moth becomes a far better tera target now that it has the means to completely flip the matchup against most of its checks. It also has shown to be rather flexible in its different choice of tera types like Fairy and Grass for example. A +1 Tera Grass Energy Ball can OHKO no bulk Harcanine for example. Offensively not much is capable of revenging +1 Moth, usually resulting in Speed ties or reliance on priority. There is still room for exploration with the Pokemon and set diversity so I only really see it becoming more dangerous. It's probably the closest thing to being borderline for me alongside Ceruledge.

Anyway, stuff I like:

:tyranitar:
I think Tyranitar is pretty fantastic right now, which feels odd given it has felt so mediocre for a while now. It's one of the few Pokemon compressing an answer to a lot of dangerous stuff like Ceruledge, Iron Moth, and Latios. It also disrupts the popularity of Alolan Ninetales veil. Granted it does appreciate being a secondary response in most cases, but for me, it has always felt impactful. Choice Band is quite an effective breaker with most structures relying on Alo + Flying-type, offensive rocks struggle to apply as much pressure but they can beat the current removers. Finally, DD is threatening albeit being a little slow but it feels important on HO structures right now imo.

:Iron Leaves:
Iron Leaves is definitely worse than it was before (at least imo) and I originally wrote it off but Monky25 told me has was having success with it still so I went back and gave it a try. Yep, it's still a very good cleaner and wallbreaker albeit being in a more awkward situation when it comes to the most optimal coverage to run. Iron Moth is the biggest annoyance because it will always force you out unless you decide to run +Spe Trailblaze. Most teams don't account for it so after an SD it can be hard to stop. I swapped between Tera Electric Wild Charge and Tera Fighting/Fairy Leaf Blade mostly.

:reuniclus:
Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest / Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Recover / Trick Room
It's not anything special but it became something I tried out after losing to Garganacl so much when using offense. It deals with it well as most are Iron Defense right now over Curse. As an offensive Psychic-type with respectable bulk, it does trade pretty well into stuff like Metagross and Jirachi. I mostly used Tera Fairy for Latios and Garchomp + Bug/Dark resist.


Been using this and enjoyed it quite a bit, climbing just shy of 1700 with it yesterday. I don't think it is the most consistent team per se as I do think building this kind of HO feels a bit harder with the current state of the tier but I tried to cover most stuff. Originally I used Kommo-o > Salamence but I'm going to be honest, that mon is dreadful. Garg is the biggest pain and I usually just relied on forcing damage with something to use several Recover or tera. Luckily it isn't super common. My buddy Notily suggested Stellar Greninja and I tried it for a few games and think it is surprisingly decent to get through Tornadus-T and Alomomola more easily. You rarely need to tera with Greninja but it felt neat, it would also seem Moute had the same line of thinking as I was writing this. I can't say for definite whether Hydro would be better over Surf but I like it being more consistent.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2032482019 - One replay of peak

I haven't been that active in building right now. I do think the tier is in a weird spot with how many powerhouses you have to account for and I usually felt pigeonholed into Regen cores or Alo Wish pass stuff. Hopefully, another ban or two will improve this a little.
 
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gulch

formerly Melt Gibson
is a Forum Moderator
New post to share what I've been enjoying in the tier.


Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fairy / Water
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Iron Defense
- Salt Cure
- Body Press

Garganacl is amazing. It's probably one of the best bullshit-proof Pokémon in the tier and an incredible asset vs HO archetypes. Iron Defense + Tera Fairy allow it to handle threats such as Ceruledge or Garchomp while Salt Cure is amazing to make progress and cripple opponent's foes. It's also really great to pivot into threats such as Zapdos, Tornadus-T, Iron Moth or Kommo-o. I also feel like it's not as dumb as it was before (for now at least), because we have more Pokémon to play around and PP stall its Salt Cure (like Hydrapple which is a great check to it imo). It's a really good Pokémon to have for Balance or more oriented defensive teams and a good win condition if needed.


Greninja-Bond @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Water Shuriken
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam

I already talked about Battle Bond Greninja in my last post but I'd like to add something : Tera Stellar ! Tera Stellar Greninja is frankly insane, the damage output thanks to Life Orb + Battle Bond + Tera Stellar is just disgusting and allow it to nuke a ton of stuff such as Tera Water Keldeo or Mandibuzz :

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Stellar Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Keldeo: 315-372 (97.5 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Stellar Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 406-481 (95.9 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO


I really think Greninja shines a lot in this metagame and it works well in both offensive and more balanced teams, its speed tier is trully key right now and I think it's a really addition to the current metagame.


That's all for today, the rest of this post is an answer to the post above mine.

I strongly disagree with that post for many reasons.

First of all, while Offenses can't take a lot of hits from Greninja (which isn't fully true but I'll talk about that later), they're not designed for that to begin with and the same could be applied for threats such as Latios, Ceruledge or Kommo-o. HO/Offense teams are teams which are trading their threats till the end. The purpose of those archetypes (outside of Bulky Offense) isn't to be able to check defensively X or Y threats. With that in mind, I think it's pretty poor to say that "Offensive structures are largely decimated by Greninja at team preview". Like hell no, they have plenty of threats to trade with it and since Greninja is supposed to be this much of an issue for them, then it's a win for HO to be able to trade 1 one 1. Also I would like to point out that Greninja is pretty frail and super weak to chip damages induced by Life Orb recoil or even Entry Hazards so it's not that tough to punish it.


Ogerpon-Cornerstone is able to 1v1 Greninja thanks to Sturdy. Unboosted or Boosted, it doesn't matter, Greninja can't win that 1v1 without taking the path of Dark Pulse flinch / Ice Beam freeze. I already see people complaining that you need to keep Sturdy, well yeah, that's the point of quite some Pokémon inside HO archetypes which are using Focus Sash (such as Ceruledge) and most HO are using some kind of Entry Hazards detterent (such as Taunt, Rapid Spin or Tidy Up).


Greninja needs LO + Stealth Rock/1 layer of Spikes + Battle Bond boost + Tera Stellar/Dark to be able to OHKO Manaphy. Otherwise Manaphy can handle a hit and retaliate back with either Energy Ball/Dazzling Gleam (75-90% and 67-80%).


Pretty similar to Manaphy, Moltres-Galar can pressure Greninja. Unboosted variants can't OHKO without Stealth Rock + comitting Tera Stellar/Water. On the other hand, Hurricane does at least 70% from Timid Moltres-Galar and up to 90% for a max roll from Modest variants.

I also would like to highlight the fact that some HO archetypes have even more tools to handle Greninja. Veil/Screens offense enable even more Pokémon to take hits from Greninja thanks to Light Screen support. Even its setters (Ninetales-A/Grimmsnarl) can put some kind of pressure on Greninja thanks to Freeze Dry / Moonblast or Spirit Break variants of Grimmsnarl. Both those two Pokémon can take a hit from an unboosted Greninja and retaliate really well (outside of Sludge Wave variants which are super rare even tho better imo than Grass Knot), thus forcing out Greninja. Sticky Web HO are also an issue for Greninja since it lowers its speed, thus making it way more managable.

Same issues can be found in this part of the post where I can not found any mention of Balance staples such as Hydrapple, Alomomola, AV Hoopa-Unbound or even Goodra-Hisui..all those Pokémon can take hits from Greninja and punish it back in some kind of measure. Alomomola can stall out some Life Orb recoil effectively while Hoopa-Unbound and Goodra-Hisui straight up win any kind of 1v1 even vs +1 Tera Stellar LO Greninja. Last but not least, while Hydrapple does fear Ice Beam / Sludge Wave it's able to handle Grass Knot variants pretty well and can even Tera to remove Greninja with ease. Tera Fairy/Water Garganacl is also a decent check thanks to both Salt Cure and Body Press and it works well in Balance. I really feel like the post doesn't fully explore the wide variety of things that can be played in Balance and don't mention at all Alomomola Balance which are really potent in the current metagame. That's unfortunate.

Greninja isn't some magic Pokémon which is able to win games on its own. It requires some support and isn't able to snowball as effectively as Blaziken since it doesn't need any KO to be able to perform well.
saving this space for a response later!! i'm going to be busy for a bit but i did want to acknowledge this since there are some rebuttals here that i want to adress and also some concessions i want to make regarding other points (i wrote the OP at like 4 am, forgive me). thank you for opening a dialogue though, i do appreciate it :)
 
:Iron Moth:
I am more convinced that Iron Moth isn't going to be the healthiest presence in the tier, at least probably not long-term. Personally the only set I feel this way about is the Booster Energy Speed variants, typically running 4 attacks. I also want to highlight I am mostly speaking from the perspective of the person using Iron Moth.

There are many instances where you can bring it in to go for Fiery Dance and pick off what is in front of it or force it out at the very least. IF Moth gets the immediate boost from the first Fiery Dance is where my main issue lies because it creates too much variance when it comes to handling it. Your usual pivot into it could now be in 2HKO or OHKO range from its coverage, this being further worsened if it proceeds to get another boost and you're incapable of OHKOing it.
+1 132 SpA Quark Drive Iron Moth Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 376-444 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 132 SpA Quark Drive Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 208 HP / 132 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 186-220 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 132 SpA Quark Drive Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I do not condone full SpD Tyranitar, just showing it...

I feel like some of these highlight that a bit and it becomes a bit worse when you also factor in tera. With the early SpA boost Iron Moth becomes a far better tera target now that it has the means to completely flip the matchup against most of its checks. It also has shown to be rather flexible in its different choice of tera types like Fairy and Grass for example. A +1 Tera Grass Energy Ball can OHKO no bulk Harcanine for example. Offensively not much is capable of revenging +1 Moth, usually resulting in Speed ties or reliance on priority. There is still room for exploration with the Pokemon and set diversity so I only really see it becoming more dangerous. It's probably the closest thing to being borderline for me alongside Ceruledge.

Anyway, stuff I like:

:tyranitar:
I think Tyranitar is pretty fantastic right now, which feels odd given it has felt so mediocre for a while now. It's one of the few Pokemon compressing an answer to a lot of dangerous stuff like Ceruledge, Iron Moth, and Latios. It also disrupts the popularity of Alolan Ninetales veil. Granted it does appreciate being a secondary response in most cases, but for me, it has always felt impactful. Choice Band is quite an effective breaker with most structures relying on Alo + Flying-type, offensive rocks struggle to apply as much pressure but they can beat the current removers. Finally, DD is threatening albeit being a little slow but it feels important on HO structures right now imo.

:Iron Leaves:
Iron Leaves is definitely worse than it was before (at least imo) and I originally wrote it off but Monky25 told me has was having success with it still so I went back and gave it a try. Yep, it's still a very good cleaner and wallbreaker albeit being in a more awkward situation when it comes to the most optimal coverage to run. Iron Moth is the biggest annoyance because it will always force you out unless you decide to run +Spe Trailblaze. Most teams don't account for it so after an SD it can be hard to stop. I swapped between Tera Electric Wild Charge and Tera Fighting/Fairy Leaf Blade mostly.

:reuniclus:
Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest / Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Recover / Trick Room
It's not anything special but it became something I tried out after losing to Garganacl so much when using offense. It deals with it well as most are Iron Defense right now over Curse. As an offensive Psychic-type with respectable bulk, it does trade pretty well into stuff like Metagross and Jirachi. I mostly used Tera Fairy for Latios and Garchomp + Bug/Dark resist.


Been using this and enjoyed it quite a bit, climbing just shy of 1700 with it yesterday. I don't think it is the most consistent team per se as I do think building this kind of HO feels a bit harder with the current state of the tier but I tried to cover most stuff. Originally I used Kommo-o > Salamence but I'm going to be honest, that mon is dreadful. Garg is the biggest pain and I usually just relied on forcing damage with something to use several Recover or tera. Luckily it isn't super common. My buddy Notily suggested Stellar Greninja and I tried it for a few games and think it is surprisingly decent to get through Tornadus-T and Alomomola more easily. You rarely need to tera with Greninja but it felt neat, it would also seem Moute had the same line of thinking as I was writing this. I can't say for definite whether Hydro would be better over Surf but I like it being more consistent.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2032482019 - One replay of peak

I haven't been that active in building right now. I do think the tier is in a weird spot with how many powerhouses you have to account for and I usually felt pigeonholed into Regen cores or Alo Wish pass stuff. Hopefully, another ban or two will improve this a little.
Be careful about the calcs, I'm pretty sure this calc is boosted in SpA by Quark Drive. Since you applied +1 boost from Fiery Dance, Quark Drive is considering that your SpA > Speed thus triggering a Quark Drive boost in SpA and not Speed.
Capture d'écran 2024-01-12 183705.png
Capture d'écran 2024-01-12 183717.png
Capture d'écran 2024-01-12 183725.png
 
Be careful about the calcs, I'm pretty sure this calc is boosted in SpA by Quark Drive. Since you applied +1 boost from Fiery Dance, Quark Drive is considering that your SpA > Speed thus triggering a Quark Drive boost in SpA and not Speed.
Interesting that's how the calc works. That is my bad, when I ladder I'm too lazy to run calcs but this will be nice to know in the future cheers

edit: fixed calcs in the original post to ensure the correct info is being provided there, either way from my ladder experience the initial boost still swings those matchups
 
Ok, let's talk about Frogleg No Jutsu over here
Greninja (M) @ Splash Plate/Expert Belt/Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Water/Poison
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Liquidation
- Ice Punch
- Gunk Shot
I rarely see Swords Dance Bond :Greninja:, which is a shame, as it can dumpster entire teams after a bit of chip, and even :Tentacruel: who resists this sets moves, well, even SpDEF Squidward still hates switching in after SD+Bond Boost
+3 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Water :Greninja: Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def :Tentacruel:: 344-406 (94.5 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Keldeo and Azu fair similarly
+3 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Water :Greninja: Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def :Keldeo:: 373-439 (115.4 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Water :Greninja: Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def :Azumarill:: 824-970 (240.9 - 283.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now for the Infamous Specs Protean
Greninja @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- U-turn
- Dark Pulse/Extrasensory/Ice Beam
- Sludge Wave
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean :Greninja: Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD :Azumarill:: 476-564 (139.1 - 164.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean :Greninja: Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD :Keldeo:: 216-255 (66.8 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and good luck Vacuum Waving a Protean Poison :Greninja:
Only :Empoleon: comfortably checks Specs Protean :Greninja:, but SD...
+3 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Water :Greninja: Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 176 Def :Empoleon:: 224-264 (60.2 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's a different story

Yeah, the ninja frog is strong, but I don't think banworthy. Yet.
 
Greninja might become broken when people use its physical sets and protean sets better to max out its versatility, i've been completely goobed by choice band protean greninja
miscellaneous calcs but:

252 Atk Choice Band Protean :greninja: Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def :Latios: 285-336 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean :greninja: Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def :Alomomola: 196-232 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:alomomola: is a good check to band[pretty much the best] but it won't switch in without being scouted, yet it itself takes a minimum of 36%
and the chance to poison is scary AF if it's not holding :heavy duty boots:

252 Atk Choice Band Protean :Greninja: Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def :Alomomola: 196-232 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and poison damage

it does a chunk to :amoonguss: too, i'm not the kind of player who can use mons like this[versatile offensive mons that can lure in some pokemon] a lot but i don't think it will be too long before players make use of something like this and push it towards brokenness

Although I haven't had a huge issue with :life orb: battle bond :greninja: while running a balance team with Lokix and amoonguss, imo it would need veratility to push gren towards brokenness
 
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i feel like the meta is very offense-oriented now
what would happen if actual walls,like skeledirge,fall in February?
:Skeledirge: will handily deal with physical :Greninja: if :Skeledirge: is Tera Water
+3 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Poison :Greninja: Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Tera Water :Skeledirge:: 148-175 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If :Skeledirge: hits Will-O-Wisp, :Greninja: can't do shit
+3 252 Atk Life Orb burned Tera Poison :Greninja: Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Tera Water :Skeledirge:: 74-87 (17.9 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
However Special Sets...
252 SpA Choice Specs :Greninja: Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Steel :Skeledirge:: 198-234 (48 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Yeah, not so much
But Tera Steel :Skeledirge: Takes hits better than :Clodsire:
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean :Greninja: Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD :Clodsire:: 270-320 (58.1 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Until :Clodsire: Tera Steels
252 SpA Choice Specs :Greninja: Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Steel :Clodsire:: 120-142 (25.8 - 30.6%) -- 2.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Here are the sets I have enjoyed using in UU so far
Greninja (M) @ Splash Plate
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Liquidation
- Ice Punch
- Gunk Shot
I really love boosting :Greninja: to rediculous levels and commiting sweep with him

Swampert @ Assault Vest
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
- Flip Turn
- Ice Beam
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
Assault Vest :Swampert: is so fucking tanky, and with Tera Poison ain't nothing killing him. He has got Flip Turn for pivoting, Earthquake for damage, Knock Off for item removal, and Ice Beam for Freeze haxs

Latios @ Choice Scarf/Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flip Turn
- Luster Purge
- Draco Meteor
- Aura Sphere
There is a reason that I call :Latios: the A-10 Warthog of the Pokemon world, and that reason is that this thing hits like a fucking frieght train, and can be fast as a bullet train.

Scizor @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Atk / 168 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Defog/Tailwind
- Knock Off
:Scizor: is so good in this meta imo, it has Bullet Punch for Priotity, U-Turn for Pivoting, Defog for Hazard Removal, Knock Off for Item Removal, and Tailwind for Speed Control

Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Tera Blast
The only correct way to use :Reuniclus: is to place Substitute, Calm Mind a few times, then drop nuclear Stored Powers on them, with Tera Blast Fairy for the Dark Types who dare try to challange :Reuniclus: Here are some calcs
+3 0+ SpA Tera Fairy :Reuniclus: Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tera Dark :Incineroar:: 486-572 (123.3 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 0+ SpA Tera Fairy :Reuniclus: Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tera Fighting :Incineroar:: 846-996 (214.7 - 252.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yeah, funny, and yes, :Incineroar: breaks Substitute with Flare Blitz, if it is running Flare Blitz
Also yes, I changed the EV spread a bit
Apologies for the double post
 
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