Taking a look at BL

[Mazz]

Disclaimer: The UU Senate will not be entertaining posts on changes in tiering status. This is a discussion topic only. These Pokemon are not about to be let back into the UnderUsed tier.

With that in mind, and the recent banning of Gothitelle behind us, let's take a look at a banlist that hasn't changed a lot over the past few months. It contains some of the most notorious Pokemon to ever lay foot in the tier, Staraptor and Kyurem, and one of the most difficult tactics to play against, trapping. Because these Pokemon are typically overlooked in the Overused tier, I feel that there's room to discuss these past threats. How would they fare in today's metagame? Would they still be ban-worthy? Let's hear your take on the Pokemon of BL and how they would affect today's metagame! Without further ado, the Pokemon banished to BL:

Staraptor
Type: Normal / Flying
Base Stats: 85 / 120 / 70 / 50 / 50 / 100
Ability: Intimidate / Reckless

Staraptor wasn't the first Pokemon banned from the UnderUsed tier, but it's technically the strongest to have done so. Thanks to Reckless, Staraptor was able to break the tier in half, seeing above 45% usage and was effectively stopped by only Impish Rhyperior. This insane offensive pressure saw Staraptor out of the tier shortly after the Drought ban. If Staraptor were to be implemented in today's UnderUsed tier, which it won't be, but let's use our imaginations, how would it affect the metagame? What would be used to counter it? Which Pokemon would work well alongside Staraptor? All elements bar Staraptor actually being allowed back into the tier are up for discussion.

Kyurem
Type: Dragon / Ice
Base Stats: 125 / 130 / 90 / 130 / 90 / 95
Ability: Pressure

Even before the ban of Staraptor, Kyurem found itself out the door alone in the BL tier, as it's Uber-like stats and Dragon STAB deemed it too powerful in a metagame that still had Snow Warning in its ranks. If Kyurem were allowed back into the UnderUsed tier, and I reiterate, it won't be anytime soon, how would it affect the current metagame? Would the tutor moves it was blessed with in the transition to BW2 continue to make it too powerful for the Underused tier? All aspects barring Kyurem being legal in UnderUsed are up for discussion, so theorymon to your little hearts' content!

Wobbuffet
Type: Psychic
Base Stats: 190 / 33 / 58 / 33 / 58 / 33
Ability: Shadow Tag / Telepathy

Wobbuffet, the former Uber, has moved from OU's banlist to UU's, was banned at the same time Staraptor was. Capable of trapping Choice Item users and handily revenge killing them, bar CB Heracross and Escavalier locked in Megahorn. Wobbuffet was also notorious for trapping and Encoring the opponent into a harmless move, giving Wobbuffet a free switch to a set up sweeper. Considering the threat-level posed by common set-up sweepers, such as Kingdra or Raikou, this tactic was deemed too good for UU. However, a lot has changed since Wobbuffet's stint in UU, leaving everything about its reintroduction to the tier is up for discussion.

Gothitelle
Type: Psychic
Base stats: 70 / 55 / 95 / 95 / 110 / 65
Ability: Frisk / Shadow Tag

Gothitelle, UU's most recent ban was able to abuse its new toy, Shadow Tag, in order to trap and take down defensive threats, allowing powerful sweepers such as Darmanitan and Heracross to rip through weakened teams. Thus it was deemed unhealthy for the metagame and banished to BL. Although its only been about a month and not a whole lot has changed in the tier, anything aside from welcoming Goth back into the tier is up for discussion.​

 

[BlankZero]

I can't speak for this a LOT, but just playing through Platinum again, and Staraptor is easily my MVP and go-to poke for almost everything in-game. And I got it with a timid nature too, but it still plows through everything. Decent STABs and awesome coverage, coupled with a pretty decent Attack/Speed combo outside of things like Terrakion in OU and it's pretty easy to see why it was cut, although we DO still have things like LO Darm running around freely :P

 

[jamashawalker]

Kyurem got EarthPower which means all it'll have to do is spam Specs set with nothing able to wall it now. Also the loss of chansey makes him even deadlier

Gothitelle was just banned and wobbofett would be in the same boat.

Staraptor will still stay the same. Sweep through teams with a simple spam of Brave Bird.

 

[Forsety]

Snow Warning had nothing to do with Kyurem's passing, it was purely Kyurem itself. It doesn't even matter how piss poor your typing is or unvaried your movepool is, long as you don't have a detrimental ability and Uber level stats and a strong STAB it already makes a mockery of UU as a tier.

On a theorymon side of things Kyurem would be an even larger threat in the current BW2. Roost and Earth Power ended up rounding out it's movepool near perfectly and anyone who has used it in OU will know how unreal it's bulk and power is as it is commonly used to counter Rain teams.

As for Staraptor nothing has changed, it'd be the same as it was before destroying everything in sight. At best you'd see more physical Bronzong's as an alternative to Rhyperior but if I recall even he is vulnerable to Staraptor's STAB's only barely edging out a 3HKO after heavy defensive investment.

Gothitelle and Wobbs aren't really discussable, it's been proven time and time again against any naysayers that Shadow Tag pretty much automatically makes you broken. They are both bad mons in their own right and Shadow Tag is the only reason either would ever be considered. There isn't any theorymon to be had either, everyone knows how either of them would be used.

 

[BlankZero]

Just wait til Chandy picks up its DW ability. It will hit OU in less than a day.

 

[Wobbanaut]

@BlankZero LO Darmanitan is different from Staraptor and not as powerful as CB Staraptor and not as fast as it too, Staraptor has the added benefit of its STAB moves not being walled by bulky waters. As for your second post I really don't see how that's relevant to the topic

@Foresty You're prolly right about Kyreum as for Staraptor well Mienshao can revenge kill any non Scarf Variants also Donphan is gone now so it's harder to spin rocks(although we still have Blastoise but with great coverage and Reckless well.... And although Wobaa will always be played the same there's been a lot of mon departures and additions, as well as the banning of Sand and Hail to cut down on residual damage

 

[BlankZero]

@BlankZero LO Darmanitan is different from Staraptor and not as powerful as CB Staraptor and not as fast as it too, Staraptor has the added benefit of its STAB moves not being walled by bulky waters. As for your second post I really don't see how that's relevant to the topic

@Foresty You're prolly right about Kyreum as for Staraptor well Mienshao can revenge kill any non Scarf Variants also Donphan is gone now so it's harder to spin rocks(although we still have Blastoise but with great coverage and Reckless well.... And although Wobaa will always be played the same there's been a lot of mon departures and additions, as well as the banning of Sand and Hail to cut down on residual damage

I do realise the idea behind Return CB Star being monstrous, but with LO Darm and Flare Blitz, there is definitely power comparison, although you are right about the speed bit. CB Star is ridiculous ingame and in metagame. Whenever PS comes back up, I'll be doing some OU testing on it myself.

As to the other post, I was referring to Chandelure's DW ability which is Shadow Tag, which is unreleased for now. With Gothitelle and Wobbufet being BL just for having the ability, coupled with SpecsChandy being a godlike deity in terms of high SpA, I was merely making reference to the fact that it will likely skyrocket to OU status with the new ability, as someone else commented on the other 2 reaching BL due to it.

Tl;Dr, Chandy getting Shadow Tag equals OU status very quickly.

 

[Wobbanaut]

Well while LO Darm is certainly powerful especially with Sheer Force(Although I prefer Scarf), Staraptor has CB Reckless Brave Bird and brilliant coverage move in Close Combat it hits the things that Darm usually can't. And tbh while testing is appreciated we can't really test these mons out in the relevant metagame so this thread is discussion and theorymoning since the OU meta is totally different from OU

 

[destinyunknown]

The difference that gives Staraptor the edge over Darmanitan and what makes Staraptor broken is basically one, and that's Flying STAB. Flying is a much better STAB than Fire in UU, as there are very few pokemon in UU that resist Brave Bird, and most of those resists are either not bulky enough (Raikou) or easily KOd by Close Combat (Empoleon), which coupled with U-turn make even a ''weak'' set such as Choice Scarf Staraptor extremely difficult to stop. This basically means that Staraptor can easily sweep teams with just 1 prediction or a well-timed U-turn, because Brave Bird is absurdly powerful and has no immunities and very few resistances, which is, coupled with the little extra speed, good STAB moves and access to Roost, what makes it superior to Darmanitan. Even if Darmanitan is more powerful, there are much more immunities and resistances to Fire in the tier, (and most of those resistances are found on very offensively threatening pokemon like Chandelure, Flygon or Kingdra), so Darmanitan has a harder time sweeping that Staraptor.

 

[Wookie (Not the Real One)]

Kyurem's raw stats alone dictated the usage of the Pokemon, but combine that with 100% accurate Blizzard and excellent STABs and you have a real threat. Now that Hail is banned from UU, you would think that it would be arguably easier to deal with. But since BW2 gave Kyurem Roost and Earth Power, two moves that Kyurem can use to great effect, I think it would demolish the tier with it's great bulk and offensive power.

Staraptor was a massive threat when it was in the tier, with Reckless STAB Brave Bird and the coverage move all Brave Bird spammers dream of, Close Combat, Staraptor was a Pokemon that could easily plow through unprepared teams. Combine that with the ability to run generally any item and still do a good chunk to the opponents team, and you had a key threat to watch out for. It was a really tough job to switch into this beast, considering it had such a large amount of power in it's wings. With it's great coverage and large amounts of power, combined with the fact that it had very few counters, Staraptor would absolutely wreak havoc upon the tier.\

EDIT: Queen Of Randoms is correct, Thanks for clarifying.

 

[BlankZero]

Just to clarify, are all weather creating moves banned in UU? I'm a bit new to the tier and trying to follow the Kyurem discussion more closely.

 

[Queen of Randoms]

Perma-weather causing abilities are banned (Drought, Snow Warning, Drizzle, Sandstream), but the moves (Hail, Sunny Day, Rain Dance, Sandstorm) are not banned.

 

[Forsety]

@Foresty You're prolly right about Kyreum as for Staraptor well Mienshao can revenge kill any non Scarf Variants also Donphan is gone now so it's harder to spin rocks(although we still have Blastoise but with great coverage and Reckless well.... And although Wobaa will always be played the same there's been a lot of mon departures and additions, as well as the banning of Sand and Hail to cut down on residual damage

The reason I say nothing changes with Shadow Tag mons is quite simple. They play by their own rules and they don't have to adapt at all. Just do what they set out to simply by the nature of the ability which forces everyone to play on their field.

Also I never like considering 'revenge killing' as an acceptable reaction to threats because all this ever does is even the score provided they don't have a chance to flee especially with Mienshao. Point is if you lost something, Staraptor already did it's job perfectly and it was usually unpreventable. Also Donphan wouldn't be the only thing worth considering, back when Staraptor was around Chansey was still in the tier. Chansey could easily be considered a Staraptor counter being the broken fat pink shit it was.

I'd actually imagine Rotom usage go up as it is the only thing currently in UU legitimately able to deal with Staraptor besides Rhyperior.

I do realise the idea behind Return CB Star being monstrous, but with LO Darm and Flare Blitz, there is definitely power comparison, although you are right about the speed bit. CB Star is ridiculous ingame and in metagame. Whenever PS comes back up, I'll be doing some OU testing on it myself.

Generally speaking Double Edge was more effective as secondary STAB, it let Staraptor murder those bulky Zapdos.

In some respects I'd actually imagine if Staraptor still existed it'd actually cut into Darm usage unless people ran Star + Darm. Higher speed, similar power, better coverage, 2 immunities to work with and recovery as a option.

 

[superbadd]

What about snow warning, drought, and sand stream? Those three shaped the metagame way more than anything else.
I wonder what uu would be like if all three of those weathers along with goth were all together.
Maybe we could make a tournament and allow all BL pokes for fun?

 

[Cesterp]

The issue with Staraptor is that it's easy to kill, but as soon as Staraptor is fighting something it can't beat, it switches out and comes back in on something that can't immediately threaten it. Scarfed Raikou (which I actually currently run already as a MoxieCross/Darmanitan/Mienshao backup check) easily outspeeds and kills Staraptor, but the problem with that is when Raikou comes in, all Staraptor has to do is switch out then come back in later when Raikou isn't in.

I missed all the other things when they weren't banned other than Goth, which I really didn't see as a problem. The only time it ever came close to sweeping my team was when it came in on specs Kingdra locked on Draco, but the Goth set didn't have sub and instead opted for coverage, and I crit the guy on the turn he reached +6. Otherwise, it never really was all that difficult to handle, and it's not like I built my team with Goth in mind.

 

[Mazz]

Just posting to make aware that the Wobbuffet and Gothitelle summaries are now up, thanks to Wobbanaut for writing them!

 

[Nyktos]

I missed all the other things when they weren't banned other than Goth, which I really didn't see as a problem. The only time it ever came close to sweeping my team was when it came in on specs Kingdra locked on Draco, but the Goth set didn't have sub and instead opted for coverage, and I crit the guy on the turn he reached +6. Otherwise, it never really was all that difficult to handle, and it's not like I built my team with Goth in mind.

Calm Mind Gothitelle was never the problem; the problem was Choiced Goth which could easily destroy Fighting-type counters and let Heracross sweep.

 

[mailanbr]

I know how this wasn't posted in the original post, but this:

What about snow warning, drought, and sand stream? Those three shaped the metagame way more than anything else.
I wonder what uu would be like if all three of those weathers along with goth were all together.
Maybe we could make a tournament and allow all BL pokes for fun?

It would really interesting to see all the changes that have happened with the new weather abusers in the UU tier. Back when Drought was banned, Venasaur was also allowed in UU, and we can tell how overpowered that was. But that was about 2 years ago, and there have been multiple tier shifts, not mention any new abilities or move tutor moves that have come out since then. The weather starting abilities are all Borderline as they aren't allowed anywhere except for OU.

Now of course that would cause UU to slightly turn into a weather-based tier sort of how OU is right now. Although, just like OU, it is still very possible to play with a weatherless team, and still be very successful. This could also add a whole lot of diversity into the UU tier. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

 

[Machi]

It would really interesting to see all the changes that have happened with the new weather abusers in the UU tier. Back when Drought was banned, Venasaur was also allowed in UU, and we can tell how overpowered that was. But that was about 2 years ago, and there have been multiple tier shifts, not mention any new abilities or move tutor moves that have come out since then. The weather starting abilities are all Borderline as they aren't allowed anywhere except for OU.

Now of course that would cause UU to slightly turn into a weather-based tier sort of how OU is right now. Although, just like OU, it is still very possible to play with a weatherless team, and still be very successful. This could also add a whole lot of diversity into the UU tier. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

There was a reason why drought was banned first among the weather and it wasn't just Venusaur (I don't even recall if Venusaur was in the tier LOL either way only thing I recall about Drought was the unstoppable Victini and Sawsbuck) that pushed it over the edge. Look closely at UU, RU, and NU there you will notice all the very dangerous chlorophyll users that were easily pushed over the edge, and had coverage to boot. Sawsbuck, Victreebell, Shiftry, and Tangroworth to name just a few. That isn't adding one of the most dangerous fire types originally Victini whose V-create easily brute forced its way through the bulky water types that were meant to wall it. Considering that we've only gained more dangerous fire types, Darm and Lure, Sun is arguably even more dangerous.

The plethora of sun abusers vs Hail or Sand abusers and the level at which they could abuse is why Sun was a cut above the rest in the UU tier when all weather was allowed. You'd just be inviting a mess if you ever returned sun since it was really quite lopsided of a match often.

 

[Forte.EXE]

Shouldn't you put Vulpix or Drought somewhere up on the OP? I mean, it had a pretty big impact on the meta at the time.

 

[ss234]

I personally think that we should hold a mini-tournament a la RU. I do wonder what Staraptor would do to the metagame were it released back, and I think that a mini-tournament would definitely help there. With all the offense of the tier really, I see CS Staraptor as the best set-otherwise, it gets mauled by Heracross and Darmanitan. For Kyurem, it would act as a wallbreaker, since Draco Meteor+Earth Power+Ice Beam is resisted only by Bronzong, so he'd definitely rise in usage.

 

[Machi]

I personally think that we should hold a mini-tournament a la RU. I do wonder what Staraptor would do to the metagame were it released back, and I think that a mini-tournament would definitely help there. With all the offense of the tier really, I see CS Staraptor as the best set-otherwise, it gets mauled by Heracross and Darmanitan. For Kyurem, it would act as a wallbreaker, since Draco Meteor+Earth Power+Ice Beam is resisted only by Bronzong, so he'd definitely rise in usage.

Staraptor with scarf was rather popular, and generally still had the power to easily 2 OHKO bulky mons thanks to its neutral coverage barring Rotom (Double-edge says hi to Zapdos). Even then its other popular set was SubRoost (which bypassed the scarf users hoping to capitalize on non-scarved variants) so it should easily bypass the few mons that outspeed it naturally and given how threatening BB/Double Edge+reckless is (216 BP on its two STABS) you'll easily find a sub opportunity.

Either way top of the ladder was mindless Bravebird spamming, combined usually with Crobat or other fliers it was easy to spam brave birds, at round two. Given that we have more fighters yeah CS should be more than adequate to have a field day since it outspeeds or at least can attempt to speed tie with common scarf users, 100 speed and below, while threatening your main offense. 100 is still a pretty good speed above average on the tier... You guys really want to try out round 2 of the metagame again mixed in with Kyurem? Also I'm surprised you guys are only looking at offensive Kyurem when one of his most dangerous sets in UU was a honeclaws+sub+dtail shuffler. Roost will be a big addition to his sub shuffler set sure we have two good fighters that could break through his subs better but don't underestimate Kyurem's bulk (and since they're getting d-tailed only Meinshao to a degree would come out of it scot-free). SPECS was his more popular offensive option since very few could resist Draco Meteor and the few would have to test their luck hoping for a focus blast miss.

 

[AJC]

Staraptor also had a really dangerous LO/Roost set that brutalized things that could force the choice versions out.

the main thing is most of the usable steels and rocks in UU have no recovery outside of rest/lefties so staraptor is able to wear them down to the point they don't matter if it predicts them right and sweep anyways or open them up to other threats.

 

[NATdude]

As far as weather is concerned, I think sand and hail could introduced without ruining the tier. Of course this would only work if Snow Cloak and Sand Veil were banned. (It's seriously broken in all tiers). Sun on the other hand is just too powerful. With every chlorophyll sweeper bar venasaur available in UU, all you really need is vulpix, victini and four other sweepers. Plus the huge amount of fire types in UU make it impossible to stop them. You think a CB V-Create under the sun hurts in OU? Wait till it's hitting in UU. As for the other BL mons, there all still broken as possible and the meta would surely focus around them if they were reintroduced.

 

[/B/utterfree]

This "Free <Anything Banned>" phase is really annoying in RU and in OU; in UU it shouldn't be happening bar the ability bans, imo.

Staraptor and Kyurem, if permitted back into UU, would just sweep everything left and right without so much as a hitch. Kyurem got Roost and Earth Power from BW2, making it much more potent than it was in BW.

For me, Shadow Tag is a mixed bag. Wobb and Goth certainly have the movepools to make it really annoying. Theoretically, Chandelure would allegedly be broken with Shadow Tag. However, I value Flash Fire over Shadow Tag on Chandelure much, especially given how frail it is in the first place. Without Flash Fire, Chandelure loses to a lot of other Fire-types in match-ups; this was agreed upon when arguing whether or not Flame Body Chandelure was viable.

All four of these Pokemon are still ban-worthy if let back into UU (which, hopefully, they aren't). I will not argue for even the Shadow Tag Pokemon (Wobb and Goth) returning.

As far as Drought and co. goes, I am on the fence. I'd rather not see more NFEs in tiers they normally wouldn't be in (especially not Vulpix). However, if they create more metagame diversity, so be it. I'd be amenable to retesting the Drought, Snow Warning, and Sand Stream bans, but otherwise I'm leaving BL alone.