Team 7-Up - A traitorous OU RMT.

Mountain Dewgong

Mountain Dewgong

~Team 7-UP~


The teams I have been using lately have either been heavy stall or more recently the most hyper offensive team you'll ever see (Seriously, 5/6 of the pokemon were set-up sweepers), so I've decided to take the middle ground and make a bulky offense team, that could take advantage of entry hazards such as Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock. It took a bit of tweaking to assemble, but I think my team is pretty decent. But that's just my opinion, I'm sure the budding minds of the RMT forum will have other ideas! Anyway, enough with my ramblings and off to the actual team!



~At a glance~
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roserade.png

Roserade@Focus Sash
Timid Nature
Natural Cure
6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Def

-Sleep Powder
-Leaf Storm
-Toxic Spikes
-Hidden Power [Fire]

The say third try is a charm. So hopefully it applies to lead pokemon! From Azelf, to Swampert and now to Roserade under instruction from SoT's student, I tested out a Roserade lead, and it's great! Setting down Toxic Spikes lightning fast, while also crippling other leads with Sleep Powder. The EV's are for a speed tie with other Roserades, leaving me with 306 speed and 348 Special Attack, easily enough to leave a dent in my opponents lead. Hidden Power Fire was a sensible choice for opposing Roserade, Jirachi and Metagross, HP ground is nigh useless as it only really hits Infernape / Heatran, both who can OHKO me. Pretty standard and it is climbing in usage, time to hop on the band wagon.

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1) Azelf: I usually sleep first turn, and if it misses I get the hell out of there as even though I will always 1HKO with Leaf Storm, Azelf always has focus sash and outspeeds me.
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2) Metagross: Hmm, I have a choice. I can outspeed and easily 2HKO, or I can Sleep, or even Toxic Spike. I'll have to work more with Roserade to know what is the best thing to do.
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3) Jirachi: Probably the best thing to do is to switch to Rotom immediately, forcing Jirachi to switch out and the incoming pokemon to eat an Overheat or Shadowball.
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4) Swampert: As it switches I sleep the incoming pokemon, then set up toxic spikes, elementary my dear Watkins.
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5) Aerodactyl:Leaf Storm for the KO as they usually taunt first turn.
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6) Infernape: Hmmm, I'd say I'd open with Sleep Powder and pray, but a switch to Rotom seems sensible as it can eat the Fakeout and take anything a Lead-Ape can throw at it.
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7) Hippowdon: Lol. STAB 140 base power Grass move anyone? Same deal as with Swampert.
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8) Ninjask: Switch to Gyarados and Taunt / get a free set up.
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9) Bronzong: This tank is hard to take down, sleep first turn, hopefully hax is on my side, try set up toxic spikes.
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11) Tyranitar: Hmmm. We can't really do much damage to me, and vice versa with Leaf Storm only doing 56.86% - 67.33% on the first strike.
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13) Heatran: I usually sleep powder as they Stealth Rock, if I'm lucky I lay down some T-Spikes, if not I switch to Gyara or Rotom.

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gyarados.png

Gyarados@Leftovers
Adamant Nature
Intimidate
156 HP / 108 Att / 100 Def / 144 Speed

-Taunt
-Dragon Dance
-Waterfall
-Stone Edge

An incredible Pokemon, with an incredible set. Taunt is an amazing tandem with a set up move like Dragon Dance, foiling those who try to ruin Gyarados' sweep with pseudo-hazing, status ailments or setting up themselves. With these EV's in combination with Intimidate, Gyarados can take multitudes of physical hits, forcing out physical attackers like Scizor with ease. Gyarados is the personification of bulky offense.



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jirachi.png

Jirachi@Leftovers
Timid Nature
Serene Grace
252 HP / 80 SpA / 176 Speed

-Calm Mind
-Substitute
-Flash Cannon
-Thunderbolt

With base 100 defences all round, and with Calm Mind to boost it's SpD to untouchable levels Jirachi is capable of tearing through unprepared teams with ease and also being able to take a hit or two. Substitute works amazingly on Jirachi with a move like Calm Mind, it protects from those nasty status moves and since Jirachi might be in for a long time it protects from untimely critical hits, which would spell doom for Jirachi, ignoring all those boosts. I chose Flash Cannon purely for neutral coverage on Latias and the fact that I'm not totally walled to death by that nasty green dinosaur; Tyranitar. Thunderbolt is pretty standard, helping hitting those fliers and bulky waters not named Swampert, namely Salamence, Gyarados, Vaporeon and Suicune.



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swampert.png

Swampert@Leftovers
Impish Nature
Torrent
252 HP / 6 Att / 252 Def

-Avalanche
-Earthquake
-Stealth Rock
-Roar


Standard physical Swampert, once a lead, but with a little tweaking he's a midgame T-tar, Salamence and SD Scizor counter, threatening them with a super effective hit or Psuedo-hazing. Earthquake and Avalanche get some rather decent coverage and hit who I want to hit, impish nature and the heavy EVs allow Swampert to tank most neutrally effective hits with ease. I love this guy.


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Rotom-H@Choice Scarf
Modest Nature
Levitate
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed

-Overheat
-Thunderbolt
-Shadow Ball
-Trick


Ah, Rotom, where do I start? This is the first time I have used it on a team and it's worked phenomenally. His use is simple, but oh so effective; switch in on a pokemon that you can threaten, see what the opponent switches in and use this to your advantage. Pokemon like Gyarados, Scizor, Celebi, Lucario fear being hit with a full power Overheat or STAB thunderbolt. And the best part is when Rotom has done it's job, it tricks it's scarf onto a wall of some sorts, effectively neutering it, restricting it to one move. The EVs are standard, and modest was a sensible choice given the speed boost from the scarf.



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salamence.png

Salamence@Life Orb
Adamant Nature
Intimidate
236 HP / 64 Att / 116 SpD / 92 Speed

-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Claw
-Earthquake
-Roost

Ah, now you are probably looking at the EVs and questioning my sanity, but Specially Defensive Salamence is surprisingly effective, it can take hits from both sides of the spectrum because of Intimidate and the HP/SpD EVs. Shrugging off non-STAB Ice Beams with ease, recovering off the damage with roost and continuing it's rampage with Life Orb and Dragon Danced boosted Dragon Claws and Earthquakes. A great member of my team all-round.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. :)
A big thanks to www.arkeis.com for the images.
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i use the bulky gyara set in my team too and its just a great sweeper imo. overall this is a really good team, the only thing i noticed is that dugtrio can trap your tentacruel if its weakened and your jirachi if it isnt behind a substitute but other then that this team is solid. gl
 
Hmm, I see a big glaring weakness here right from the start - Tyranitar.

What do you have against Tyranitar? Salamence's EQ (if Tyranitar is weakened enough) and other moves like Tentacruel's Surf and Gyarados' Waterfall. Maybe even Jirachi's Flash Cannon. But what do you do after he gets a DD up?

Tyranitar can set-up on many of your pokemon, be it on any of Rotom-H's attacks (barring Trick), Azelf, Tentacruel and even Jirachi if it's bulky enough. Once it has a DD up, the only viable thing to do to save yourself is to Trick a Scarf on it, as it completley stomps through your team with SE and Crunch.

Salamence - +1 -1 SE is enough for the OHKO
Jirachi - Unboosted Flash Cannons won't do that much, and he wont let you set up. He will eventually win over Jirachi. Especially if it's a CroTar.
Gyarados - Same case as Salamence.
Tentacruel - Even if it doesn't have EQ, Tyranitar will 2HKO Tentacruel while it can't 2HKO back.
Rotom-H - A Crunch makes quick work of him.
Azelf - Same as Rotom-H, just with a way to fight back. If the Tyranitar is weakened enough, it can hope to KO with GK, but if not, it's a goner as well.

The CB set can give you trouble as well, with no 'safe' switch in to it's attacks. No Dark resistance hurts you in that department, so I suggest adding one.

My choices were Skarmory and Forretress, as Skarmory is probably the best Tyranitar counter available, countering every set aside from the rare Taunter. Forretress was also an option as it is a great switch-in against the CB set and a possible substitute for Tentacruel with T-Spikes and Rapid Spin. I was thinking of putting them over Tentacruel or Jirachi, but when I did, I discovered that you had a big Jolteon weakness, with the only thing capable of taking an attack and KO'ing back is Salamence. Rotom-H can outspeed it and possibly KO it, but that's it. I thinked a bit and found a solution: Defensive Magnezone. Defensive magnezone can provide another switch-in to Tyranitar's STAB attacks and can resist every one of Jolteon's attacks as well. My end product looked like this:

Skarmory / Forretress > Tentacruel
Magnezone > Jirachi

With these changes, you would patch up your problems from Tyranitar and Jolteon while evening out your overall resistances (having 2 resistances to every type besides Rock, which has 1). You would lose a sweeper though, and possibly change Toxic Spikes for Spikes if you choose the better Skarmory, and then loosing a Spinner. If you want to keep Toxic Spikes and a Spinner, go with Forretress.

Forretress @ Leftovers / Shed Shell
Nature: Relaxed
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Atk / 144 Def
IVs: 0 Spe
~Rapid Spin
~Spikes / Toxic Spikes
~Gyro Ball
~Explosion

It's your choice with the entry hazards. Gyro Ball for countering Tyranitar the best. Explosion is, well, Explosion. The EVs are standard, and give you a OHKO on Weavile if it ever shows up.

Your other choice is:

Skarmory @ Leftovers / Shed Shell
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Atk / 176 Def / 16 Spe
~Spikes
~Whirlwind
~Brave Bird
~Roost

Everything is pretty straitfoward. Spikes is your entry hazard, Whirlwind is to deal with Tyranitar and Gyarados, barring Taunt. Brave Bird is for Breloom and others as Roost is for recovery. The EVs are standard as well.

For the Magnezone, try this:

Magnezone @ Leftovers
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
~Substitute
~Magnet Rise
~Thunderbolt
~Toxic / Hidden Power (Grass/Ice)

You'll probably notice that this set is a bit different from the standard. That's because I tweaked it a bit. I've been using this set a lot in the past two weeks and it's been working wonders. This works like the common steel trapper, with Substitute and Magnet Rise getting rid of Skarmory, Bronzong and other Steel-types that would mean trouble for Salamence. Thunder is for STAB, and the last moveslot has a couple of choices. Toxic is an amazing Move on Magnezone, as it can cripple Swampert, Tyranitar, Hippowdon and other pokemon that would come in on it. After all, nobody would switch-in a Steel type on Magnezone. It also lets you beat Rest-less Rotom-A one on one. The other option is a Hidden Power of your choosing. The EVs are very effective, as they outrun Adamant Scizor, but aside from that, it outruns most Skarmory, lets you sub before defensive Rotom-A and many more. With the bulk, Magnezone can easily survive a +1 Waterfall from Gyarados and OK back, making it a reliable counter for EQ-less variants. It also lets you set up bulky subs against trapped CB Scizors. Overall, this magnezone is a great pokemon on your team.

That's it for now, hope I helped!

@Edit: Wow that was long 0.o
 
Thanks for the rate Blue, I appreciate the time that huge comment must have took!
Though I have qualms with your Tyranitar comment. I understand I have a weakness, though nothing I cannot handle.
Gyarados is a my main 'counter' per say, taunt prevents the set up, waterfall does 57.92% - 68.32% unboosted, an easy 2HKO, though max attack, -1 CB T-tar can OHKO me with Stone-edge, though a poisoned, possibly trick scarved T-Tar at around 40% is easily handled. Your statements make it sound like said Tyranitar is both carrying a choice band and Dragon Dance, simply put there is no complete counter for every single Tyranitar set, the one you mentioned; Skarmory is dealt to easily by Specially based T-tar or even a DD-Tar with fire punch.



Hmm, I was thinking of a Mixed Salamence with a choice scarf, what do you think of that? And who do you recommend I remove for the Magnezone? It sounds like a decent idea.
 
If you want a bulky dragon dancer then dragonite could replace ur salamence. Even though u would lose intimidate dragonite outclasses salamence as a bulky DDer as it has a higher SP.D stat and the drop in speed wont really matter so much after a dragon dance. If u want to keep ur salamence i suggest running an offensive dragon dancer set or changing to this dragonite:

Dragonite@ leftovers /lum berry / life orb
evs: 224hp / 84 atk / 200 spe
nature: Adamant
-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Claw / Outrage
-Earthquake
-Roost

With dragonites high special defense it takes the odd ice beam relatively well and can roost of the damage while snatching a few dragon dancers here and there. Dragon claw is probably the better choice as outrage would make dragonite easier to revenge kill and would leave u without the option to roost, however if used in conjunction with a lum berry it is a viable option. All other moves are pretty self explanatory.

Hope this helps.
 
just kind of a nitpick here, but i would run fire blast over flamethrower on azelf so you can guarantee a 2hko occa berry metagross and just hit bulky steels harder in general
 
Problems:

Jolteon
Dragon Dance Tyranitar


How to fix:

Oddly enough, I have the exact same team without Tentacruel with minor tweaks for Rotom-O a while back. I've faced the same problems time and time without any solid resist to Electric. Dragon Dance Tyranitar is a mid-level threat which can potentially screw with you around the entire match with you trying to Intimidate it. I have one suggestion and its to replace your lead slot:

Swampert
@ Leftovers
Relaxed Nature (Def+ / Spe-)
252 HP / 252 Def / 6 SpD

- Ice Beam
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

I admire your uniqueness for the lead slot, but I think overall, this would fit the teams theme and patches up the threats better. Jolteon in particular needs HP Grass to hurt it, if it has it, Salamence can beat it. Ice Beam defeats opposing Salamence's which could be quite troublesome. Earthquake is your main weapon against Tyranitar which can't hurt you and will need 3 CB Crunch's to hurt you. Roar phazes the entire team with T-spikes and SR on the field. Overall, i think this would benefit you more, gl.
 
Mountain Dewgong said:
Thanks for the rate Blue, I appreciate the time that huge comment must have took!
Though I have qualms with your Tyranitar comment. I understand I have a weakness, though nothing I cannot handle.
Gyarados is a my main 'counter' per say, taunt prevents the set up, waterfall does 57.92% - 68.32% unboosted, an easy 2HKO, though max attack, -1 CB T-tar can OHKO me with Stone-edge, though a poisoned, possibly trick scarved T-Tar at around 40% is easily handled. Your statements make it sound like said Tyranitar is both carrying a choice band and Dragon Dance, simply put there is no complete counter for every single Tyranitar set, the one you mentioned; Skarmory is dealt to easily by Specially based T-tar or even a DD-Tar with fire punch.



Hmm, I was thinking of a Mixed Salamence with a choice scarf, what do you think of that? And who do you recommend I remove for the Magnezone? It sounds like a decent idea.
Click to expand...
Special Tryanitar is extremely rare, and you'll probably figue out that it's special before the switch to Skarmory. I suggest Skarmory & Magnezone over Jirachi and Tentacruel, since they seem to be the most changable for me. I explained my reasons at my first (enormous) post.

Oh, and btw, I'm being tutored now for rating teams, so I made a huge effort there to see what I learned. lol
 
nice team mountain dew(gong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), its actually pretty nice. its got most base threats covered, and you have a plan and seem to execute it well. im going to see if i can make the team do what its trying to do better than it does now. basically, you set up sr and toxic spikes, then slowly wear the opponent down. once they're at low health, you send out gyarados or salamence and just totally sweep them. you also want a solid defensive core to take on the metric shitton of sweepers that the current metagame, which you seem to do well...but there are some threats that aren't covered, in particular tyranitar and electric types. they literally sweep you totally, you have no defense against them. the first thing i'm going to suggest is a bulky ground type to stop these, swampert in particular. swampert is a fantastic pokemon in the fact that it can beat so many top threats without using weird evs or odd moves, and its not just one threat that it stops. it is such a useful pokemon, especially on a bulky offense team such as yours. i highly suggest dropping stealth rock for roar...since you already have stealth rock on your azelf. roar is a great move, it racks up sr damage as well as scouts the opponent team, and poisons them as well.

swampert @ leftovers
relaxed 252 hp / 252 def / 4 spa

~ earthquake
~ surf
~ ice beam
~ roar

next, your team is based around using passive damage to weaken the opponent down for a sweep, so i think you need more residual damage to pile up on the opponent. spikes is the only option, since you have your rocks and your toxic spikes. the best spiker for this team, in my opinion, would be a forretress. since you have 2 stealth rock weak pokemon in salamence and gyarados, the rapid spinning would make their sweep a whole lot easier. forretress is really cool because it can set up toxic spikes and spikes, effectively doing what tentacruel does as well as something else (spikes). it also gives you a nice dark resist, which lets you check tyranitar a little better. overall, forretress would be a nice addition to your team.

forretress @ leftovers
impish 252 def / 252 hp / 4 spdef


~ rapid spin
~ payback
~ toxic spikes
~ spikes

hope i helped
 
I was going to replace Tentacruel with Foretress, but that leaves me extremely open to being raped by an Infernape and Heatran, so I decided against it..

I'm going to try out the Swampert Lead, I've used him before as a lead quite alot and has worked well.
Though I'll probably tweak the EVs a tad, and use Hydropump over ice beam, as it has much better coverage as a lead.

Something like this:
Swampert@leftovers
Relaxed Nature
200HP / 200 Def / 110 SpA
Earthquake
Hydropump
Roar
Stealth Rock

Also testing the Dragonite set listed.

Thanks heaps guys. :)

Merging the double post edit: Okay, I have updated the team accordingly. Swampert tests were promising.
 
Overall, I quite like this team. I wouldn't advise switching out Tentacruel in favor of Forry simply because Tentacruel is pretty excellent against Heatran and Infernape whereas Forry is.... not. In addition, you already have a steel-type to somewhat absorb Outrages and Draco Meteors. On my stall teams, I also find Tentacruel much easier to switch in because even among SE attacks against Tentacruel, the only ones you really have to worry about are the physical ones, and Psychic and Electric Type physical attacks are fairly rare barring the occasional T-Punch and Zen Headbutt. Of course, EQ is still floating around....

Kudos for using SubCM Jirachi. I have no idea why more people don't use it; it's really beastly once Maggy and Pert are gone.
 
Thanks Christova. :)
My thoughts exactly, Tentacruel is my only solid counter for the two, really.
Though Gyarados can handle Infernape most of the time.
 
i only got 1 question,why speed evs on relaxed swampert? it make no sense,i sugest you take then out and place then on your defense,atack,and special defense,trust me,this will only help you

edit:i just realize that you use bulk mence,what i got to say is:give up on this,its the same thingy as using sweeping nite,its outclassed by its rival,intimidade is not a big help when the enemy replace they pokemon when they see mence,i only sugest you replace for the sweeper set or use bulk nite instead,because it may look good,but its not better then its rival set
 
Sorry, that was from the Azelf previous, it was meant to be 200 Defense EVs, I just fixed it.

I've tried DD-nite, and I find it lack lustre, the only reason I use Salamence is that people DON'T expect Salamence to be bulky, while if they see a Dragonite, they immediately know that. A surprise survival of an Ice attack could be vital.
 
Hey there. Solid looking team, but there are a few things I'd change.

First off, I would change Tentacruel to a Roserade and make it your lead. This will let you prevent slower leads from setting up Stealth Rock, while simultaneously letting you get toxic spikes in play much earlier. Keeping pert for later will help it better preform its roles as a check to Ttar and Mence, among others. You already have Heatran and Infernape pretty well taken care of, and Tentacruel is going to have a hard time spinning when Rotom-A comes in to block it. With that, I would change Hydro Pump to Ice Beam. This will help it check Mence, as well as hit some of it's common switch-ins (Breloom, A weakened Celebi). I would also change Swampert's EV Spread to that of a standard MixPert, though you could go more defensive if you want. For reference, the spread is 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 SpA @ Relaxed.

Well that's it, remember it's just a suggestion to test out and see if it works. Good luck!
 
Thanks Hunt! :)
I've great success with your suggestions though Gyarados and Salamence are hurting a tad with the newfound lack of a rapid spinner.
I'm thinking of putting Starmie in somewhere, but I'm not sure where.
 
Ditch specially bulky Salamence and use Dragonite, unless you want to use physically bulky Salamence. Physically bulky salamence is quicker and is a good check to stuff like Lucario. It takes physical hits better than Dnite and is also quicker.

Other than that, it looks like a fairly standard team.
 
Hello!

First, I'm going to touch on the Dragonite/Salamence debate. I see it has already been brought up, but here is my part.

Your Salamence is kind of (not completely) an inferior Dragonite, as it is. Here is a comparison of the stats between your Salamence and a Bulky DD Dragonite.

Salamence, Adamant, 236 HP / 64 Att / 116 SpD / 92 Speed
Stat Spread: 390 Hp / 354 Atk / 196 Def / 230 SpA / 225 SpDef / 259 Spe

Dragonite, Adamant, 224 HP / 84 Atk / 200 Spe
Stat Spread: 379 Hp / 357 Atk / 226 Def / 212 SpA / 236 SpDef / 246 Spe

With no Special Defense investment, Dragonite is still 11 points above your Specially defensive mence Spread. The Speed advantage Salamence has is negligable, as it is only to allow you to outspeed Weavile after a DD; most Weavile will probably Ice Shard you after a DD anyway, and also, Weavile are so uncommon now thanks to the large uprising of Scizor. Dragonite will still outspeed all the things it needs to outspeed with the EV spread. Lastly, Dragonite also has 30 Defense higher than Salamence, which is really big. Dragonite, through only stats, has an advantage over this Salamence set.

But this is why I said kind of. It comes down a lot to the ability, as Intimidate is generally what makes Salamence bulky. Intimidate only lasts for that one pokemon, and after that, Salamence is less bulky than Dragonite (take into account we're only talking defense; Dragonite still wins in Special Defense.) However, if you are only talking for getting Dragon Dances in, Dragonite is probably more likely to do it because of his bulk. You are probably going to switch Dragonite/Salamence into a pokemon it scares off in order to set up, so the Intimidate is likely to go away. You don't need intimidate to beat Lucario because you have a Scarf Rotom-H on your team!

It is with that, that I suggest Dragonite over Salamence, the Dragonite spread being the one listed above with the exact same moves as on your Salamence.

Dragonite @ Life Orb
Inner Focus
Adamant
224 HP / 84 Atk / 200 Spe
~Dragon Dance
~Dragon Claw
~Earthquake
~Roost

Inner Focus can be really handy, as it can prevent you from getting flinch hax'd to death, something no one likes. On a final note, you may want to try a Lum Berry on the Dragonite or the Salamence, as not many things on your team can take/enjoy status. A burn can really stop your sweep too :[

You may want to change Avalanche to Ice Beam on Swampert. Avalanche requires your opponent to hit you for it to be doing more damage than Ice Beam. A pokemon could instead set up in front of you, putting you in a worse position. Also, most pokemon you attack with Ice Beam will have a lower Special Defense, such as Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Salamence (see above). Its generally a 'safer' option.

I hope this helps!
 
musiquev24 said:
Hello!

First, I'm going to touch on the Dragonite/Salamence debate. I see it has already been brought up, but here is my part.

Your Salamence is kind of (not completely) an inferior Dragonite, as it is. Here is a comparison of the stats between your Salamence and a Bulky DD Dragonite.

Salamence, Adamant, 236 HP / 64 Att / 116 SpD / 92 Speed
Stat Spread: 390 Hp / 354 Atk / 196 Def / 230 SpA / 225 SpDef / 259 Spe

Dragonite, Adamant, 224 HP / 84 Atk / 200 Spe
Stat Spread: 379 Hp / 357 Atk / 226 Def / 212 SpA / 236 SpDef / 246 Spe

With no Special Defense investment, Dragonite is still 11 points above your Specially defensive mence Spread. The Speed advantage Salamence has is negligable, as it is only to allow you to outspeed Weavile after a DD; most Weavile will probably Ice Shard you after a DD anyway, and also, Weavile are so uncommon now thanks to the large uprising of Scizor. Dragonite will still outspeed all the things it needs to outspeed with the EV spread. Lastly, Dragonite also has 30 Defense higher than Salamence, which is really whopping. Dragonite, through only stats, has an advantage over this Salamence set.

But this is why I said kind of. It comes down a lot to the ability, as Intimidate is generally what makes Salamence bulky. Intimidate only lasts for that one pokemon, and after that, Salamence is less bulky than Dragonite (take into account we're only talking defense; Dragonite still wins in Special Defense.) However, if you are only talking for getting Dragon Dances in, Dragonite is probably more likely to do it because of his bulk. You are probably going to switch Dragonite/Salamence into a pokemon it scares off in order to set up, so the Intimidate is likely to go away. You don't need intimidate to beat Lucario because you have a Scarf Rotom-H on your team!

It is with that, that I suggest Dragonite over Salamence, the Dragonite spread being the one listed above with the exact same moves as on your Salamence.

Dragonite @ Life Orb
Inner Focus
Adamant
224 HP / 84 Atk / 200 Spe
~Dragon Dance
~Dragon Claw
~Earthquake
~Roost

Inner Focus can be really handy, as it can prevent you from getting flinch hax'd to death, something no one likes. On a final note, you may want to try a Lum Berry on the Dragonite or the Salamence, as not many things on your team can take/enjoy status. A burn can really stop your sweep too :[

I hope this helps!
Click to expand...

Wow! Thanks. You do raise a very valid point in the Salamence vs. Dragonite debate. Basically all I have to say is, that I liked the double intimidate synergy with Gyarados I have to wear down physical opponents, though that's less effective I lost my spinner. And also the surprise factor from Salamence taking around 60-70% from an ice beam from something like Blissey or Swampert and out stalling them with Roost in combination with toxic spikes, though I understand Dragonite would take less. So I'd say I'll try Dragonite in Salamence's place, as on paper it seems better.


You may want to change Avalanche to Ice Beam on Swampert. Avalanche requires your opponent to hit you for it to be doing more damage than Ice Beam. A pokemon could instead set up in front of you, putting you in a worse position. Also, most pokemon you attack with Ice Beam will have a lower Special Defense, such as Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Salamence (see above). Its generally a 'safer' option.
Click to expand...

The whole 'it can set up in your face' point is moot as my Swampert has roar anyway, so I can pseudo-haze it's stat up, or attack. But again, I'll see.

Thanks. :)
 
Mountain Dewgong said:
Wow! Thanks. You do raise a very valid point in the Salamence vs. Dragonite debate. Basically all I have to say is, that I liked the double intimidate synergy with Gyarados I have to wear down physical opponents, though that's less effective I lost my spinner. And also the surprise factor from Salamence taking around 60-70% from an ice beam from something like Blissey or Swampert and out stalling them with Roost in combination with toxic spikes, though I understand Dragonite would take less. So I'd say I'll try Dragonite in Salamence's place, as on paper it seems better.
Click to expand...

Oh yes, I knew I forgot to say something in that part. I wanted to include the surprise factor aspect. However, on the other side of it, most people are surprised just to see Dragonite :P



The whole 'it can set up in your face' point is moot as my Swampert has roar anyway, so I can pseudo-haze it's stat up, or attack. But again, I'll see.

Thanks. :)
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Okay. I feel kind of dumb, because I was going to say how you might not nab a KO with Avalanche if you were to do so with Ice Beam, but after doing the math you will still KO a Salamence (after SR damage.) I think the situation only applies with Gliscor. I need to do more testing on Avalanche vs. Ice Beam, so for now I guess you can forget what I said about it.
 
I couldn't help but notice that your Salamence is just a worse Dragonite. If you are going to DD and Roost, then I would strongly recommend Dragonite.

EDIT** I didnt read a few of the others' posts. My apologies if this subject already came up. Also, I'd like to add that Intimidate is nothing thanks to a little doohickey called switching.

Also, one awesome bulky DD-Nite coming up:

Dragonite @ leftovers/lum berry
Adamant nature
Inner Focus
EVs: 252HP / 200SpDef / 56Def or Spe
-Dragon Dance
-Fire Punch/EQ
-Dragon Claw/Outrage
-Roost

Fire and Dragon can always x1 everything (bar heatran) but your swampert and gyarados should be fine at getting rid of Heatrans. Choose the 56 Def if you want a little extra bulk on the defensive side, or choose the speed if you wish to outspeed more things (particulary Zapdos) after 1 DD.
 
Well if you are testing Dragonite sets, I'd certainly try Heal Bell (or Safeguard) DDNite because once you get rid of steels it is an absolute MONSTER. Last poke Roost DDNite kills stall just like your current DDMence set does, but prevents game breaking paralysis and also stops Blissey from just Toxicing you. If you chose to use Heal Bell then you also get the perk of being able to cure the status of your team which is always nice, cause Rotom-h cannot check Lucario if its paralyzed and Jirachi will certainly have a harder time sweeping. Safeguard prevents immediate status such as Sleep Powder/Hypnosis. It's basically all your choice.

Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP/56 Atk/200 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Roost
- Heal Bell / Safeguard

Feel free to go for more defensive EVs if you wish, and you could opt for Outrage over Dragon Claw but I am not sure if Safeguard blocks Outrage confusion on shoddy, as i just used Dragon Claw/Heal Bell when i used it.

Next off, I feel Timid Rotom-h is much better for after you Trick your Scarf as then you can still outspeed max spe Adamant Lucario and OHKO with Overheat.

Sorry it's not much of a rate, everyone else seemed to cover almost everything.
 
Mountain Dewgong said:
Sorry, that was from the Azelf previous, it was meant to be 200 Defense EVs, I just fixed it.

I've tried DD-nite, and I find it lack lustre, the only reason I use Salamence is that people DON'T expect Salamence to be bulky, while if they see a Dragonite, they immediately know that. A surprise survival of an Ice attack could be vital.
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well,do what you want,the team is yours,i respect your idea,just be aware that nite can survive stuff that mence cant,even both being bulk,oh,here is KL leon901,i made a new account because i was not liking my last one name,just wanted to point that out.

edit:i just remembered that when you are on shoddy battle,you can go to team builder and pass to text your team,evs,nature,moves etc,this way you wont have this kind of small problem again
 
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