Tempo! by TAY

TAY

You and I Know
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
This is my second RMT. My first got quite a few views but no responses, so I’m hoping that this one will do a bit better. When I first started playing D/P I would only play stall teams, then as time passed I grew into offensive teams. Recently I have been testing this team, which is somewhere in between the two, though it’s certainly closer to an offensive build than a stalling team. My team is very strong defensively, but is still able to control the tempo of the game and force predictable switches. I ask for help because there are still some threats that my team has trouble with, and because I have not settled on a sixth pokemon for the team.

For some reason I fail at pictures.


Gengar @ Choice Scarf
Timid Nature
252 Speed, 252 SpAtk, 4 HP
-Hypnosis
-Shadow Ball
-Thunderbolt
-HP Ice

Scarf Gengar prevents me from becoming extremely annoyed by having one of my pokes put to sleep on the first turn. It also gets a lot of surprise kills on Salamences and forces switches from Gyaras, which is useful for the extra try at hypnosis. I’m beginning to dislike Gengar as a lead, however; since I usually use Hypnosis first to avoid sash, Gengar has an undesirably high chance of fainting on the first turn.

Obviously, this is bad. Gengar serves as a revenge killer/sleeper and, depending on the opponent’s team, a late game sweeper as well. Speed is maxed to at least tie other scarf gengars, and it’s not like a few extra HP will help Gengar survive anyway.
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Suicune @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
252 HP, 236 Def, 20 Speed
-Calm Mind
-Surf
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

Suicune is one of the most underrated pokes in D/P. Grass types aren’t particularly common, and if my opponent does have them they are taken down by Heatran and Infernape. Water Types are taken down by Celebi, and Electrics don’t pose a threat to Suicune after a couple of calm minds. Zapdos is the one pokemon that gives me a lot of trouble, since it can switch in and threaten huge damage and roost off any surfs I throw at it. I can’t even pressure stall it, and my team doesn’t have an answer to it other than pressure from Celebi and Heatran. But all things considered, this guy sweeps more than Garchomp, which is pretty impressive. And yes, I have had to pressure stall many, many times. The 20 speed is really a carryover from ADV when suicune used roar, but it has still helped outspeed other cunes and cresselias in CM battles.
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Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Hasty Nature
252 Speed, 252 Attack, 4 HP
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power
-Dragon Pulse
-Explosion

Heatran has a load of useful resists, not to mention two immunities. I originally ran a life orb rest/talker, but I found that it’s easier for me to avoid para and sleep than OHKO’s while during a rest. Choice Scarf Heatran is also an often safe switch into an early-game Gengar. Hasty over Naïve to better take Draco Meteors and Dragon Pulses; I’ve got physical walls already. The biggest issue with Heatran is whether to carry Dragon Pulse or HP Ice. I’ve been using Dragon Pulse because I already have 2 ice users, and Dragon Pulse has better general coverage. Unfortunately, Pulse fails to OHKO a lot of threats (though it does avoid yache berry).
Scarf Heatran also takes down SD Lucario.
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Celebi @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
252 HP, 124 Defense, 32 Speed, 100 SpAtk
-Grass Knot
-HP Ice
-Leech Seed
-Recover

One of the best pokemon available for standard play. Leech Seed provides incredible tempo, usually forcing switches or netting me a free switch-in. HP Ice is to help deal with Garchomp & Dragons, and it frequently surprises Gliscors who expect a weak GK. The 100 SpAtk is actually an accident; it was supposed to be SpDef to allow better switches into Milo/Sui/Vaporeon ice beams and Zapdos HP Ice, but the extra damage has actually come in very handy in a number of situations (laughs even harder at Gyarados). 32 Speed outruns jolly TTar. (I’m currently testing with the 100 SpDef instead of ApAtk.)
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Garchomp @ Yache Berry
Jolly Nature
252 speed, 252 Atk, 4 HP
-Swords Dance
-Earthquake
-Dragon Claw
-Fire Fang

After using scarfchomp for so long before this team, I really appreciate not being locked into attacks. Yache berry allows Garcomp to attack through ice beams, etc. Without a priority move he’s really hard to stop. Worst case scenario is he’ll score just one KO, best is he’ll sweep. Dragon Claw over Outrage to avoid being locked if my opponent switches in a counter.
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Infernape @ Life Orb
Naïve Nature
252 Atk, 252 Speed, 4 SpAtk
-Close Combat
-U-Turn
-Mach Punch
-Overheat

This is the one pokemon I can’t decide on. At first I was using a Special Defensive TTar, but I wanted the team to be faster; then a Bulk Up Machamp; then a Metagross; and recently I have been using Infernape. U-turn hits Starmie and Cress switch-ins, and keeps the tempo in my favor. Mach punch has been instrumental in winning many matches—it stops SD Lucario, as well as any EndRever or simply a weakened sweeper. Also OHKO’s unsuspecting Weaviles.
I have been considering HP Ice over either U-turn or Mach Punch for an OHKO on Salamence and good damage to Garchomp, as well as an OHKO on Gliscor. I already have plenty of ice/dragon attacks to deal with dragons, and enough special attacks in general to deal with Gliscor, but if anyone has a good reason for me to use it then, by all means, tell me!
Another possibility, as well as what my infernape used to run, is thunderpunch. It only hits for more than CC on Gyara, Starmie, Slowbro, and Mantine, but it also provides a way for me to attack without getting a defense drop or a SpAtk drop, which is sometimes vital late-game.
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Notes:

All my sweepers run max speed because it gives me an advantage over other offensive teams. In general I don’t have trouble with stall teams because leech seed and CMcune get me free switches to Infernape and Garchomp, often netting me a KO and putting a hole in their wall of pokes. Not to mention most stall teams are terrible against Grass/Ice from Celebi.

This team has two different ways to win:
First: it can remove the opponent’s pokemon who are in the way of Suicune or Garchomp. Heatran and Infernape take care of steels who would give Garchomp trouble, as well as Celebi who would stop a Suicune sweep; Celebi and Gengar clear out Grounds for Garchomp and Water Absorbers for Suicune. Suicune tends to sweep a lot more than Garchomp, probably because everyone throws half their team into countering dragons, and because I can often sacrifice Garchomp to enable a Suicune sweep. Suicune is very difficult to stop without Celebi, Zapdos, or Vaporeon, and it just so happens that all three of those just love to switch into an SD’ing Garchomp and try to kill it with an ice attack. Even if I lose Garchomp, I will often enable a sweep.

Second: Every member of this team is capable of forcing a switch on a lot of different pokemon. Even if I can’t KO, I can take a decent chunk of HP for each time my opponent switches, and prevent them from healing by putting a lot of pressure on whatever poke they have out. Obviously, prediction is key for this to work, but Celebi, Suicune, and Heatran tend to draw the same switch-ins multiple times, so I can pretty frequently get an can opening for Infernape to come in and take a big swing with CC/Overheat and force more switches.
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Known Problems:

Zapdos—HP Ice just doesn’t cut it. With no rock attacks, Heatran and Celebi are usually my best bets, but neither of them can switch in often if my opponent is halfway decent at predicting.

Togekiss—This is the reason I initially sought to remove TTar. If I know what set it is there’s little trouble, but if it nasty plots on my switch to suicune or aura spheres on my switch to Heatran I’m in trouble.

Cresselia—If it has calm mind, Cresselia can cause me massive pains. Since it has much higher SpDef potential than my suicune to begin with, I spend a lot more time asleep and usually die to crithax before I finish pressure stalling.

Ninjask—as it turns out, Focus Sash Ninjask kicks the crap out of me. This shouldn’t even really be an issue, since focus sash Ninjask is terrible (Obama, TTar, Hippo say hello), but I have run into a few that Protect+SD, then BP to Chomp/Gatr/Metagross on my choiced Gengar. Not fun.

Where’s the Rocks? By some odd, cruel twist of fate, my team wound up with no SR users. Since Zapdos and Kiss are both weak SR would help a lot, but I really don’t know where to fit them in. None of my pokes has a move that I feel comfortable removing. This team’s strategy would benefit immensely from SR, so any good suggestions to get them on the team are more than welcome.
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Rest of the Threat List:
Blissey: OHKO’dby Infernape and by Heatran’s Explosion. Garchomp also does a good number on Blissey’s poor defense. If needed suicune can pressure stall it or outright kill it, depending on the EV spread.

Breloom: Suicunetakes sleep, then I can switch to celebi or Gengar to wall, or to Infernape on the Sub to U-Turn into Gengar on the FP (obviously situational).

Electivire: My extreme lack of electric attack means it probably can’t get a speed boost. Garchomp comes in on thunder[move], Gengar, on Cross Chop, Heatran on Ice Punch. Celebi walls non-flamethrower versions with leech seed.

Garchomp: Celebi and Gengar both carry HP Ice, Suicune can come in and bluff ice beam and can take non-SD variants regardless. Heatran can Dragon Pulse or Explode.

Gengar: If it leads, I can shadow ball or hypnosis. Heatran can come in on [not focus blast] and threaten fire blast.

Gyarados: Celebi can beat it unless it has a lot of attack and ice fang, in which case I have a slight problem. Gengar can outspeed after a DD (and sometimes two); Heatran outspeeds with explosion after a DD.

Heatran: Suicune is great here. Heatrans love to come in on celebi, and usually eats a Leech Seed when it does, so suicune gets an essentially free switch-in. Garchomp isn’t OHKO’d; and I can shuffle between Celebi, Gengar, and Heatran if necessary.
Heracross: Super annoying, but beatable. Gengar comes in on his STAB’s; Suicune handles stone edge and nigh slash. Heatran outspeeds adamant ScarfCross and comes in on [not CC], so that’s another option.

Infernape: Suicune can come in on CC/[fire move] and not be KO’d by the subsequent GK or Thunderpunch. If it lacks those Suicune walls it completely. Heatran can KO with Earth Power, Gengar can come in on CC and put it to sleep.

Jirachi: Even with CM, Heatran and Garchomp blast it.
Lucario: Gengar can come in on CC and hypnosis. Heatran and Garcomp can both come in on an SD and take a hit to KO. Infernape’s mach punch deals ~70%, so if it switches in on Celebi or Suicune I can comfortably surf/GK and sacrifice when it SD’s up, then KO with infernape before Extremespeed can connect.

Mamoswine: Gengar, Heatran, Infernape, Suicune, Celebi if it’s slow

Metagross: Suicune unless it has thunderpunch; Celebi can leech seed it and stall even if it ice punches. If it gets a MM boost it can get annoying, but I can throw a lot of damage at it with Heatran/Garchomp.

Porygon-Z: Heatran walls and outspeeds. I might have to use Garchomp’s Yache berry here.

Salamence: It’s horribly versatile…Heatran takes dragon attacks and threatens dragon pulse, if it comes in on my 100 SpDef Celebi it can eat HP Ice as it fails to OHKO (there’s a slight chance of ohko from a plus natured specs fire blast). HP Ice will fail to OHKO, but if it switched in on Leech Seed or GK it will faint to LO damage. Gengar takes EQ/Brick Break; suicune can bluff ice beam against physical versions. Garchomp outspeeds with Dragon Claw; can come in on Fire [move] and Brick Break.

Snorlax: Ugh so annoying. I usually switch in celebi to leech seed, then throw in suicune to threaten CM sweep without caring about para. Ape can OHKO with CC.

Starmie: Likes to switch into Ape’s U-Turn, and I can then force a switch with Celebi, Gengar, or Heatran. Gengar can switch in once, Celebi owns it all day.

Suicune: Celebi takes it on even with ice beam. I can explode with Heatran if necessary or CM battle with suicune, but that’s REALLY annoying

Vaporeon: Celebi can take it easily, but it likes to wish/prot and switch out. A lot of times I’ll use Garchomp’s Yachi to KO it or weaken it and then sweep with Suicune.

Weavile: Fails against Suicune; mach punch OHKO’s, Heatran outruns it with fire blast.

Yanmega: usually leads; usually KO’d by Gengar. Heatran can handle non-HP Ground versions.

Tyranitar: Gengar can hypnosis and run, Garchomp has EQ, Infernape OHKO’s, It doesn’t like to switch into Celebi’s GK, Suicune’s Surf, or Heatran’s Earth Power. CB versions can hurt a bit, but I haven’t had any serious trouble with it.
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So that’s it. If you have any suggestions, feel free to tell me; just be sure you have some reasoning or some other way to back up what you write. I have put a lot of time and thought into this team, so saying stuff like “Just put SR on Celebi!” doesn’t help because I’ve already considered and rejected it. Of course, if you have reasoning behind why Celebi should have SR, then I’m more than happy to listen. In short, I’m looking for a fresh perspective on my team, in case there’s something I overlooked or hastily neglected.

I can test pretty much any reasonable suggestion, so you won’t be ignored!

Good Luck, Smogon Raters! --TAY
 
There really isn't much to say to my eye. I actually have used alot of the exact same sets before. They are standard (barring Celebi and Infernape), but you obviously managed to build it around great synergy.

As for suggestions, I would keep the Infernape set as is. You have plently of Dragon hate as you stated.

How long can you prolong Suicune? It seems to be your only answer to something like Boah.

Great job. If I can think of any Pokemon suggestions for the last slot I'll let you know.
 
TAY said:
This is my second RMT. My first got quite a few views but no responses, so I’m hoping that this one will do a bit better. When I first started playing D/P I would only play stall teams, then as time passed I grew into offensive teams. Recently I have been testing this team, which is somewhere in between the two, though it’s certainly closer to an offensive build than a stalling team. My team is very strong defensively, but is still able to control the tempo of the game and force predictable switches. I ask for help because there are still some threats that my team has trouble with, and because I have not settled on a sixth pokemon for the team.

For some reason I fail at pictures.


Gengar @ Choice Scarf
Timid Nature
252 Speed, 252 SpAtk, 4 HP
-Hypnosis
-Shadow Ball
-Thunderbolt
-HP Ice

Scarf Gengar prevents me from becoming extremely annoyed by having one of my pokes put to sleep on the first turn. It also gets a lot of surprise kills on Salamences and forces switches from Gyaras, which is useful for the extra try at hypnosis. I’m beginning to dislike Gengar as a lead, however; since I usually use Hypnosis first to avoid sash, Gengar has an undesirably high chance of fainting on the first turn.

Obviously, this is bad. Gengar serves as a revenge killer/sleeper and, depending on the opponent’s team, a late game sweeper as well. Speed is maxed to at least tie other scarf gengars, and it’s not like a few extra HP will help Gengar survive anyway.

Looks good, Scarf Gengar has great coverage and is one of the best revenge killers out there in my opinion.
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Suicune @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
252 HP, 236 Def, 20 Speed
-Calm Mind
-Surf
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

Suicune is one of the most underrated pokes in D/P. Grass types aren’t particularly common, and if my opponent does have them they are taken down by Heatran and Infernape. Water Types are taken down by Celebi, and Electrics don’t pose a threat to Suicune after a couple of calm minds. Zapdos is the one pokemon that gives me a lot of trouble, since it can switch in and threaten huge damage and roost off any surfs I throw at it. I can’t even pressure stall it, and my team doesn’t have an answer to it other than pressure from Celebi and Heatran. But all things considered, this guy sweeps more than Garchomp, which is pretty impressive. And yes, I have had to pressure stall many, many times. The 20 speed is really a carryover from ADV when suicune used roar, but it has still helped outspeed other cunes and cresselias in CM battles.

I've always felt sleep talk is kind of a waste when you have only one attcking move. I think you should switch it out for hp electric or Ice beam so you aren't walled by water absorbers if something were to take out Celebi.
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Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Hasty Nature
252 Speed, 252 Attack, 4 HP
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power
-Hp Ice
-Explosion

Heatran has a load of useful resists, not to mention two immunities. I originally ran a life orb rest/talker, but I found that it’s easier for me to avoid para and sleep than OHKO’s while during a rest. Choice Scarf Heatran is also an often safe switch into an early-game Gengar. Hasty over Naïve to better take Draco Meteors and Dragon Pulses; I’ve got physical walls already. The biggest issue with Heatran is whether to carry Dragon Pulse or HP Ice. I’ve been using Dragon Pulse because I already have 2 ice users, and Dragon Pulse has better general coverage. Unfortunately, Pulse fails to OHKO a lot of threats (though it does avoid yache berry).
Scarf Heatran also takes down SD Lucario.
In my opinion you should always use an ice move over a dragon move because it gives you more coverage and hits Gliscor and Garchomp hard.
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Celebi @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
252 HP, 124 Defense, 32 Speed, 100 SpAtk
-Grass Knot
-HP Ice
-Leech Seed
-Recover

One of the best pokemon available for standard play. Leech Seed provides incredible tempo, usually forcing switches or netting me a free switch-in. HP Ice is to help deal with Garchomp & Dragons, and it frequently surprises Gliscors who expect a weak GK. The 100 SpAtk is actually an accident; it was supposed to be SpDef to allow better switches into Milo/Sui/Vaporeon ice beams and Zapdos HP Ice, but the extra damage has actually come in very handy in a number of situations (laughs even harder at Gyarados). 32 Speed outruns jolly TTar. (I’m currently testing with the 100 SpDef instead of ApAtk.)
Very good, I'd run some calcs to see how much the extra special attack can help make grass knot become a least a 2hko on some things.
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Garchomp @ Yache Berry
Jolly Nature
252 speed, 252 Atk, 4 HP
-Swords Dance
-Earthquake
-Dragon Claw
-Fire Fang

After using scarfchomp for so long before this team, I really appreciate not being locked into attacks. Yache berry allows Garcomp to attack through ice beams, etc. Without a priority move he’s really hard to stop. Worst case scenario is he’ll score just one KO, best is he’ll sweep. Dragon Claw over Outrage to avoid being locked if my opponent switches in a counter.
Pretty standard now, works very well.
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Infernape @ Life Orb
Naïve Nature
252 Atk, 252 Speed, 4 SpAtk
-Close Combat
-U-Turn
-Mach Punch
-Heat Wave/Fire Blast

This is the one pokemon I can’t decide on. At first I was using a Special Defensive TTar, but I wanted the team to be faster; then a Bulk Up Machamp; then a Metagross; and recently I have been using Infernape. U-turn hits Starmie and Cress switch-ins, and keeps the tempo in my favor. Mach punch has been instrumental in winning many matches—it stops SD Lucario, as well as any EndRever or simply a weakened sweeper. Also OHKO’s unsuspecting Weaviles.
I have been considering HP Ice over either U-turn or Mach Punch for an OHKO on Salamence and good damage to Garchomp, as well as an OHKO on Gliscor. I already have plenty of ice/dragon attacks to deal with dragons, and enough special attacks in general to deal with Gliscor, but if anyone has a good reason for me to use it then, by all means, tell me!
Another possibility, as well as what my infernape used to run, is thunderpunch. It only hits for more than CC on Gyara, Starmie, Slowbro, and Mantine, but it also provides a way for me to attack without getting a defense drop or a SpAtk drop, which is sometimes vital late-game.
I never liked Overheat for one reason. If for some reason the opponent can heal off the initial damage, your attack will keep getting weaker and weaker and you'll have to switch. That's why I recommend Fire Blast for the extra power.
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Notes:

All my sweepers run max speed because it gives me an advantage over other offensive teams. In general I don’t have trouble with stall teams because leech seed and CMcune get me free switches to Infernape and Garchomp, often netting me a KO and putting a hole in their wall of pokes. Not to mention most stall teams are terrible against Grass/Ice from Celebi.

This team has two different ways to win:
First: it can remove the opponent’s pokemon who are in the way of Suicune or Garchomp. Heatran and Infernape take care of steels who would give Garchomp trouble, as well as Celebi who would stop a Suicune sweep; Celebi and Gengar clear out Grounds for Garchomp and Water Absorbers for Suicune. Suicune tends to sweep a lot more than Garchomp, probably because everyone throws half their team into countering dragons, and because I can often sacrifice Garchomp to enable a Suicune sweep. Suicune is very difficult to stop without Celebi, Zapdos, or Vaporeon, and it just so happens that all three of those just love to switch into an SD’ing Garchomp and try to kill it with an ice attack. Even if I lose Garchomp, I will often enable a sweep.

Second: Every member of this team is capable of forcing a switch on a lot of different pokemon. Even if I can’t KO, I can take a decent chunk of HP for each time my opponent switches, and prevent them from healing by putting a lot of pressure on whatever poke they have out. Obviously, prediction is key for this to work, but Celebi, Suicune, and Heatran tend to draw the same switch-ins multiple times, so I can pretty frequently get an can opening for Infernape to come in and take a big swing with CC/Overheat and force more switches.
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Known Problems:

Zapdos—HP Ice just doesn’t cut it. With no rock attacks, Heatran and Celebi are usually my best bets, but neither of them can switch in often if my opponent is halfway decent at predicting.

Togekiss—This is the reason I initially sought to remove TTar. If I know what set it is there’s little trouble, but if it nasty plots on my switch to suicune or aura spheres on my switch to Heatran I’m in trouble.

Cresselia—If it has calm mind, Cresselia can cause me massive pains. Since it has much higher SpDef potential than my suicune to begin with, I spend a lot more time asleep and usually die to crithax before I finish pressure stalling.

Ninjask—as it turns out, Focus Sash Ninjask kicks the crap out of me. This shouldn’t even really be an issue, since focus sash Ninjask is terrible (Obama, TTar, Hippo say hello), but I have run into a few that Protect+SD, then BP to Chomp/Gatr/Metagross on my choiced Gengar. Not fun.

Where’s the Rocks? By some odd, cruel twist of fate, my team wound up with no SR users. Since Zapdos and Kiss are both weak SR would help a lot, but I really don’t know where to fit them in. None of my pokes has a move that I feel comfortable removing. This team’s strategy would benefit immensely from SR, so any good suggestions to get them on the team are more than welcome.
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Rest of the Threat List:
Blissey: OHKO’dby Infernape and by Heatran’s Explosion. Garchomp also does a good number on Blissey’s poor defense. If needed suicune can pressure stall it or outright kill it, depending on the EV spread.

Breloom: Suicunetakes sleep, then I can switch to celebi or Gengar to wall, or to Infernape on the Sub to U-Turn into Gengar on the FP (obviously situational).

Electivire: My extreme lack of electric attack means it probably can’t get a speed boost. Garchomp comes in on thunder[move], Gengar, on Cross Chop, Heatran on Ice Punch. Celebi walls non-flamethrower versions with leech seed.

Garchomp: Celebi and Gengar both carry HP Ice, Suicune can come in and bluff ice beam and can take non-SD variants regardless. Heatran can Dragon Pulse or Explode.

Gengar: If it leads, I can shadow ball or hypnosis. Heatran can come in on [not focus blast] and threaten fire blast.

Gyarados: Celebi can beat it unless it has a lot of attack and ice fang, in which case I have a slight problem. Gengar can outspeed after a DD (and sometimes two); Heatran outspeeds with explosion after a DD.

Heatran: Suicune is great here. Heatrans love to come in on celebi, and usually eats a Leech Seed when it does, so suicune gets an essentially free switch-in. Garchomp isn’t OHKO’d; and I can shuffle between Celebi, Gengar, and Heatran if necessary.
Heracross: Super annoying, but beatable. Gengar comes in on his STAB’s; Suicune handles stone edge and nigh slash. Heatran outspeeds adamant ScarfCross and comes in on [not CC], so that’s another option.

Infernape: Suicune can come in on CC/[fire move] and not be KO’d by the subsequent GK or Thunderpunch. If it lacks those Suicune walls it completely. Heatran can KO with Earth Power, Gengar can come in on CC and put it to sleep.

Jirachi: Even with CM, Heatran and Garchomp blast it.
Lucario: Gengar can come in on CC and hypnosis. Heatran and Garcomp can both come in on an SD and take a hit to KO. Infernape’s mach punch deals ~70%, so if it switches in on Celebi or Suicune I can comfortably surf/GK and sacrifice when it SD’s up, then KO with infernape before Extremespeed can connect.

Mamoswine: Gengar, Heatran, Infernape, Suicune, Celebi if it’s slow

Metagross: Suicune unless it has thunderpunch; Celebi can leech seed it and stall even if it ice punches. If it gets a MM boost it can get annoying, but I can throw a lot of damage at it with Heatran/Garchomp.

Porygon-Z: Heatran walls and outspeeds. I might have to use Garchomp’s Yache berry here.

Salamence: It’s horribly versatile…Heatran takes dragon attacks and threatens dragon pulse, if it comes in on my 100 SpDef Celebi it can eat HP Ice as it fails to OHKO (there’s a slight chance of ohko from a plus natured specs fire blast). HP Ice will fail to OHKO, but if it switched in on Leech Seed or GK it will faint to LO damage. Gengar takes EQ/Brick Break; suicune can bluff ice beam against physical versions. Garchomp outspeeds with Dragon Claw; can come in on Fire [move] and Brick Break.

Snorlax: Ugh so annoying. I usually switch in celebi to leech seed, then throw in suicune to threaten CM sweep without caring about para. Ape can OHKO with CC.

Starmie: Likes to switch into Ape’s U-Turn, and I can then force a switch with Celebi, Gengar, or Heatran. Gengar can switch in once, Celebi owns it all day.

Suicune: Celebi takes it on even with ice beam. I can explode with Heatran if necessary or CM battle with suicune, but that’s REALLY annoying

Vaporeon: Celebi can take it easily, but it likes to wish/prot and switch out. A lot of times I’ll use Garchomp’s Yachi to KO it or weaken it and then sweep with Suicune.

Weavile: Fails against Suicune; mach punch OHKO’s, Heatran outruns it with fire blast.

Yanmega: usually leads; usually KO’d by Gengar. Heatran can handle non-HP Ground versions.

Tyranitar: Gengar can hypnosis and run, Garchomp has EQ, Infernape OHKO’s, It doesn’t like to switch into Celebi’s GK, Suicune’s Surf, or Heatran’s Earth Power. CB versions can hurt a bit, but I haven’t had any serious trouble with it.
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So that’s it. If you have any suggestions, feel free to tell me; just be sure you have some reasoning or some other way to back up what you write. I have put a lot of time and thought into this team, so saying stuff like “Just put SR on Celebi!” doesn’t help because I’ve already considered and rejected it. Of course, if you have reasoning behind why Celebi should have SR, then I’m more than happy to listen. In short, I’m looking for a fresh perspective on my team, in case there’s something I overlooked or hastily neglected.

I can test pretty much any reasonable suggestion, so you won’t be ignored!

Good Luck, Smogon Raters! --TAY
Click to expand...

It's a nice team but you seem to be lacking defense. Adding Gliscor or Weezing to your team over either Celebi or Suicune would solve your Heracross, Breloom, and Gyardos (if you put haze on Weezing) annoyances. A special wall may also do you some good but I'd just add a physical wall and see if a need for special walling becomes apparent.
 
i have found that a combo of suicune and celebi along with a bug resist is a very good core for a team. this team could make use of this by adding a bug resist most notably gliscor over maybe gar or tran. this would allow for stealth rocks and a reliable cross counter that would aid your teams stalling ability. hope i helped
-chaos 9
 
I will rate this team later, as this RMT is well written, one of the few lately I've found that I really want to rate. Right now I'm short on time though, so my only suggestion is that if you want Stealth Rock, the best place to put it would probably be Celebi. You could lose Leech Seed or HP Ice for it, it's up to you. It depends on how much you want Stealth Rock.
 
As much as I like Gliscor (and hate Heracross =P), and even though he strangely has similar defensive coverage to gengar, my team really cant deal with another ice weak. I can't really drop my other Ice weak pokes either--losing Garchomp would seriously hamper my ability to kill Blissey and Vaporeon, and losing Celebi would ruin my defensive coverage, not to mention kill the central focus of my team. Gliscor would only be there to stop Heracross anyway, and I already have decent defense against it between Celebi, Gengar, Heatran, and Suicune.

@Soma: I initially chose overheat because I wanted the extra base power coming off of only 4 SpAtk EV's and a neutral nature, most of the stuff that switches in to an overheat and lives either will take more/lethal damage from a CC or will force me to switch out regardless of what I'm using. However, now that you've suggested it I am going to test fire blast instead, for three reasons: first, I get extra killing potential against Dusknoir and Zapdos, both of which annoy me to no end; second, as you mentioned, it pretty much ruins my ability to sweep in general--if my opponent switches Blissey in on my overheat, then overheat is weak enough that they can afford to send out Gengar, etc. who couldn't have safely come in before--and fire blast does not have that problem; third, if I use overheat it's a dead giveaway to any decent player that I'm running a physical set, which is bad because I really, really like to bluff Grass Knot. Chance of burn is nice too =)

@Chaos 9: Heatran and Gengar already are bug resists...but yes, Suicune, Celebi, and tran/gar/gliscor is fantastic defensive coverage. Gliscor just doesn't have enough offensive of Gengar and Heatran that I need for this team (in addition to what I posted at the beginning).

@Iggybot: Thanks for the compliment!

I am also going to test HP Ice on Heatran and SR on Celebi over leech seed, as much as it pains me.

Thanks to those who contributed; I know I write a lot so I really appreciate that you're helping me. Let's keep the comments coming!

Good Luck, RMT's! (they need it =P) --TAY
 
I'd very strongly consider taking Thunderbolt off Gengar and replacing it with Focus Blast. The main use of Thunderbolt on Gengar (Scarfgar in particular) is obviously Gyarados, who Celebi covers quite well. A Gengar without Focus Blast is hard-pressed to do damage to plenty of things that want to switch in on it, like Rest-talk Heatran, Weavile, Snorlax, and Tyranitar (several of which will happily pursuit you if you've already put something to sleep).

I feel your team could benefit from Hippowdon in a slot - it'd increase your coverage against CBtar (who potentially gives you problems as currently your only Rock resist is Chomp, who's got limited durability and is thrashed by Ice Beam). This would also help you against Ninjask by providing a Phazer or SRer. It doesn't particularly help against Togekiss or Zapdos and it doesn't increase your offensive potential either though (in addition to adding an unwelcome weakness to water and ice), so I could see why you might not like it.

Swords Dance Tech Scizor can wreck Cress if given X-Scissor and helps somewhat against Ninjasks (you can't 1HKO without a Swords Dance, but you can hit many switch-ins hard and bypass any speed boosts with Quick Attack, and many BP targets won't be able to OHKO Scizor). Another decent weapon against Ninjask that doesn't rely on phazing is Gyarados - you can come in and Intimidate, ensuring that they'll be forced to pass out with at most +1 attack and speed or be taunted and prevented from doing anything. Weavile also helps a bit if given Ice Shard, which will always OHKO without a sub. Ninjask gives my heavily offense-based teams some problems too since I usually don't run a phazer, and it can be hard to efficiently counter if you don't carry one.

edit: And I'm assuming that's sp atk on Heatran.
 
I'm pretty sure I see where you're trying to get at with this team, because I tried something similar to this before. First of all, contrary to what everybody else is saying, I would actually remove Suicune; it just gives Zapdos a free switch and if you need it to switch in on something you're probably playing it wrong anyway. In terms of defense you've got Celebi + Heatran anyway.

In Suicune's place I would actually run Yanmega. If tempo is what you're after you will not find anything better than the annoying flying bug; just by coming in Yanmega gives you a huge advantadge. With Speed Boost and Hypnosis, Yanmega immediately turns the tempo in your favor, and it can easily sweep teams lacking Blissey.

Of course, if I'm completely misinterpreting what this team is supposed to be like, feel free to disregard my advice.

EDIT: Also, I don't know how you feel about Heatran, but with no EVs, no boosting nature, and no Specs, it looks a bit weak to me. Nothing sucks more than coming in to revenge kill something but can't because you're just too damn weak. Obviously keep the Scarf and the +Speed nature, because it's pretty important to your team, but at least dedicate some of those Attack EVs to Special Attack.
 
Ok, here's that more in depth rate that I said I was going to do. COalex and Fishin covered quite a bit, so I'll see what I can do.

First of all, one highly offensive pokemon that could give Zapdos, Togekiss and Ninjask fits is Mamoswine. Ice Shard / Ice Fang / Stone Edge wrecks all three of them. Mamoswine can easily come in on Zapdos's Thunderbolt and Togekiss's TWave or Roost. Ninjask isn't going to do anything to it. Although if you do replace Suicune with it, it will add a 3rd water weakness which isn't pretty (and it doesn't do jack shit to Cresselia unforunatly). Just another thing to think about along with fishin and COalex's suggestions. Scizor is a very interesting suggestion in my opinion. Adamant, max attack Scizor with a Swords Dance (Life Orb) will OHKO any Cresselia in the game with X-Scissor. Technician Quick Attack will OHKO any Ninjask, except for Obi's dreaded "Tankjask". Luckly, that's pretty rare.

I also recomend Focus Blast over Thunderbolt on Gengar. Celebi handles Gyarados quite well (except for max attack, Ice Fang varients) and Gengar will like hitting Heatran and Tyranitar hard on the switch.

I like your Infernape set, I would keep Mach Punch. STAB priority moves can be very usful, as you said, especially with Lucarios that think they can sweep with Extremespeed. I would give Infernape slightly more SpAtk and keep the rest of the moveset the same. HP Ice would be usful, but it really looks like you have your dragon threat covered, between Celebi, Gengar and Heatran. Besides, Overheat is an easy 2HKO on Gliscor, and U-Turn is always a helpful attack.

While Yanmega is a great addition to any offensive team if you have the room, I don't really see how it would help fix your problems with anything besides Cresselia (and possibly Ninjask, if you ran Substitute on Yanmega, you could just set up on Ninjask and end up outspeeding whatever your opponent sends in). I really think Mamoswine or Scizor may be your best bet for that last slot. As I stated before, Mamoswine gives you that water weakness (unless you stick it in over Infernape, but Infernape seems like it helps your team quite a bit, taking out stuff like Gliscor, Hippowdon, and other physical walls) but none of your current problems except Cresselia want anything to do with it's great offensive power.
 
Commenting on previous posts and other stuff:

I completely agree with Fishin and Iggy's on Focus Blast > Thunderbolt. Fighting + Ghost is unparalleled type coverage and the ability to do something about gay RestTalk Heatran/Magnezone will be a great help to your team.

You mentioned it in your opening post, but I feel it's really worth restating: Stealth Rocks are amazing in a tempo-based team. When your game plan is focused on forcing switches out of the opponent you have no better ally than entry hazards. The question is really where you can put them; Celebi can lose HP Ice if the need be (though it depends on how you feel about Leech Seed). Fishin mentioned Hippowden for his handy Rock resist and Sand Veil (Garchomp will love you for this), which is certainly an option albeit one I disagree with. On a team like this the hippo basically says "I am a pussy with no offense. Switch in your Calm Mind sweepers and take the initiative away from me" which is probably not what you're trying to convey. Mamoswine and Tyranitar are both more offensive pokemon that can carry Stealth Rock, and Mamoswine especially seems like a good candidate: with Ice Shard/Earthquake/Stone Edge you have an open slot anyway!

IggyBot said:
While Yanmega is a great addition to any offensive team if you have the room, I don't really see how it would help fix your problems with anything besides Cresselia (and possibly Ninjask, if you ran Substitute on Yanmega, you could just set up on Ninjask and end up outspeeding whatever your opponent sends in). I really think Mamoswine or Scizor may be your best bet for that last slot.
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It's not so much specific pokemon that Yanmega helps you with but the game as a whole. No matter what the situation, Yanmega can almost always help you regain the initiative. Switching in, using Protect, then firing off Hypnosis immediately makes the opponent react to YOU instead of the other way around. Yanmega is basically a mega tempo boost in a bug-shaped container.

Of course, that's not to say that Mamoswine or Scizor aren't excellent choices as well, but Yanmega is usually (70% of the time) a great contingency plan. Additionally, very few things can switch into Yanmega short of dedicated special walls, and you should be cheering if you force Blissey to switch in.

If you're feeling a bit adventurous you can put Swords Dance on Infernape with an Adamant nature. If you use Stealth Rocks a SD Close Combat is almost always an OHKO on standard 252 / 156 Skarmory, so you won't need Overheat. Unfortunately, it has a slightly lower chance of OHKOing standard 252 HP / 96 Defense Forretress, but I'm not sure you'll need to worry about that (that's what residual damage is for!). Of course, this is just a suggestion, and you shouldn't feel obligated to make such a big change to your team.
 
Oh yes COalex, I know how threatening Yanmega can be, believe me. To be honest, Protect + Hypnosis Yanmega is probably the least of your worrys when it comes to sets. However, the reason I said that about Yanmega is because this team is already pretty balanced, but seems to be missing just one thing to round it off. Yanmega, while being a terrific pokemon, wouldn't round this team off in my opinion, since it won't do what Tay specifically needs done, and that is something to beat Zapdos / Togekiss / Ninjask / Cresselia. I simply don't believe Yanmega is the best pokemon for that specific job.

And I forgot to metion again, I really think Stealth Rock should go on Celebi over HP Ice or Leech Seed (though Mamoswine can learn it to, if you decide to use it). Stealth Rock would help this team a ton, as it does with any offensive team. I'm still trying to find a way to work it into mine, without sacrificing a moveset, much like you.
 
I know what you mean about Protect + Hypnosis Yanmega not being its best set (I personally think Specs is best), but on a team like this Hypnosis is basically a free KO. The only problem I can see is conflicting status with Gengar. Of course, there are other choices for that spot, and Yanmega is just one option.

I think you're vastly overrating the threat Zapdos poses to this team. If he drops Suicune, Zapdos can only come in on Infernape, and that's shaky as is. I agree about Togekiss though; bulky SDef-heavy versions especially will be difficult to take down. Scizor or Yanmega over Suicune would lessen the Cresselia problem.
 
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