Tera in National Dex: Where do we stand now?

[Jho]

Hello all, its been a little while since the Tera suspect and we've removed a few more things from the metagame since then. With the removals and additional time to really adapt to the metagame with Tera, I'm curious as to how we're all feeling now. Having barely received a no ban result during the suspect test, and being quoted as one of the biggest problems in the metagame in the last player survey, I want to open up discussion about how our feelings on the Tera mechanic have developed with the metagame.

To be clear, this is not an On the Radar for Tera, and chances are that even a major outcry for a retest wont lead to anything immediately. The purpose of this thread is to vocalize our changing thoughts on the mechanics impact on our metagame, gauge whether or not community perception of it has altered at all, and in the future should we look into a retest, we can use this thread as a resource at that time.

Personally, I was quite pro ban when the test rolled around due to the fact that it warped the metagame in such a drastic way and made counterplay to everything so much more constrained and difficult in an already overwhelmed metagame. While I still believe this to be the case, recently I have felt that it's not as bad as I originally thought (which isnt difficult tbh, I was comparing Tera to Dynamax in how it warped games). I'm much more tolerant of it now and do enjoy building with it in mind, however, I do believe the strain it causes the metagame, and the sacrifices we have had to, and no doubt will have to make in terms of bans just to keep Tera outweighs any possible pros of keeping it.

Curious to know if you guys feel the same, if you think its worse now than it was during the test, better, or just the same as you thought it was back then. Lets hear everyone's thoughts and discuss Tera as a whole here!

 

[hidin]

Terastallization has somewhat changed since the conclusion of the suspect test for it, but yet I still believe that it contributes unhealthy elements to the tier; warping situations for both the player and the opponent and having to pick and choose what Pokemon you lose to due to it having an oppressive Tera that can push it over the edge. Terastallization also leads to a multitude of banning Pokemon that one wouldn't even consider being looked at in the first place, such as Espathra and Roaring Moon, and it will keep on going on and on, finding threat after threat after threat due to this mechanic being allowed. You also are completely in the dark when it comes to when your opponent will Terastallize or not, and while some have learned how to predict Tera as a whole I still don't think that makes it a healthy element in the tier, having to do 50/50s in matchups where it should be an easy turn to proceed through isn't healthy. I will say I like the creativity Tera somewhat brings to the tier, and personally don't mind it as much as I used to, but it is sadly too broken to even justify its creativity still having an effect on National Dex. I will probably record a video on this going more in-depth with my opinions, but I'd just like to put out the thoughts at the top of my head for now.

I'll probably appear in the thread to question others about Tera time to time, but this and the video I will upload soon will probably be my only posts on this thread, so I'll just say overall, please look at Terastallization in the future at any opportunity that is given.

 

[Of Shade]

I have a few thoughts about Tera after playing for a while now.

I think that tera is a very cool mechanic and, while this is not saying too much, better than Dynamax was. However, I still do not think it is healthy. At the very least I would like to see a tera preview.

Tera makes conventional checks to some mons no longer checks, and can actually cause them to lose where they would otherwise threaten or force out a mon. Likewise, it can also create opportunities for skill expression by using your tera aggressively to catch an opponent off guard. However, even taking that into consideration, I think that is kind of a false argument. Many pokemon who end up using Tera are going to Tera into one of maybe three different types, so while the argument can be made for skill expression, I do not think going into a cookie cutter Tera to beat a common check to your mon is that skillful.

I also find it crazy that some pokemon are banned simply because of Tera. These mons were not issues previously and with their ability to change typing they find themselves too strong to belong in standard play.

There is also the issue of Tera Blast. Obviously this is National Dex, and not every pokemon has access to that move, but that pool will widen (probably) when Home gets released. Having access to a STAB move after terastallizing that is 80 BP is, in my eyes, extremely strong and could be considered unhealthy.

This is kind of just my of the moment thoughts, so I will probably add more or give more thoughts as this thread progresses.

 

[sealoo]

Don’t wanna drop a one liner but don’t wanna drop a soliloquy. Tera is cool for being able to pull games out of your ass and win but also bad for the same reason. I can get saying it’s uncompetitive, but at the current moment I’d barely lean voting No Ban as I’ve been enjoying using it recently

 

[Sputnik]

I've gotten more used to Tera as time has gone on and it makes the meta quite varied and interesting. I'm also having fun experimenting with different Teras on stuff and seeing how well they break open the tier. Of course its awful from a competitive standpoint, and I don't see how that is arguable. Kingambit being able to stifle Fighting-type revenge killing attempts with the right Tera is something that should never happen. Tornadus suddendly becoming immune to Electric attacks is something that should never happen. SubIDPress Zama losing all of its weaknesses from pre-Tera should never happen. CM Cress should not be able to become immune to Toxic. I could go on and on but you get the point. It fundamentally breaks the game at a competitive level, you can play 90% of the game perfectly but then end up losing in the endgame to some random Tera sweeper. It’s definitely a funny/fun mechanic depending on how you see it, and honestly I wouldn’t be that disappointed if it stayed, but I can’t justify keeping it in the tier with how blatantly uncompetitive it is.

 

[Chilli Dewd]

I personally love tera as a mechanic, and would even wanted to stay if possible, as I kinda have adapted to it. I understand that from the 50/50 of a defensive mon tera type changing, to the already strong wallbreakers in the tier being even more annoying to manage is annoying to manage.
So i wanna say thoughts on how the tier without tera would probably shift to be like:
OFFENSE: Wallbreakers would be easier to manage=Regularly, defensive calcs needed to have Tera into account, whch means bsiness, and mons that are decently tanky like Ferrothorn, Toxapex, Rotom-Wash and others, sometimes couldn't handle those hits. Even resisted his felt like supereffective moves at times, which made walling cetrain pokemon, many banned by that matter, almost impossible at times. Honorable mentions have to go to weather abusers like Floatzel, Barraskewda, Scovillain and Venusaur, they're already hard hitting moves were even more powerful, often mons couldnt even switch out:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fire Scovillain Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 478-564 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 155-183 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

3. DEFENSE:Defensive play will be both easier to do, but also to handle= If the tier removed Tera from the equation, defensive play for sure would be easier since you wouldnt need to worry of the crazy calcs i just showed: Compare
252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 116-137 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
However, defensive pokemon love using tera as well, Skeledirge is a perfect example of this, his bulk is great, especially with Unaware, but it has a pretty bad defensive typing, sure ot sits on Zamazenta silly with that typings, but not much else. But by changing into say Water or Fairy, it now has a good typing with the good bulk and Unaware. Other mons like Garganacal, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, Skarmory, Corviknight, Clodsire amons others become irritating to deal with, Say for example u have Tusk against a Toxapex, well its a Ground type, that is gone in an Earthquake, but hold up, that Toxapex might have Tera Flying, and if it does it can use Toxic and cripple me. Without Tera, Offensive play can still get an edge with the meed of a specific Tera, an attacker wouldnt need to worry of a Garnacal to either stay Rock or go into Fairy for example.
So do I want it to stay? Yes,I love this mechanic, its probably my second best favorite mechanic in the game only behind by the obvious Megas.
But SHOULD it stay? For the sake of a healthier and balanced metagame, it probably shouldn't, as much as I would love it to stay.

 

[Pikaslayer2022]

While I’m biased about going against tera since I have hated the mechanic ever since it came out. It’s still pretty unhealthy when trying to check Pokémon that could potentially sweep your team. An example being tera flying swords dance kingambit which turns the matchup between Great Tusk. The second is certain team styles such as rain almost forcing you to have a water immunity or have a good counter play being a tera Pokémon that resists water and can handle the rain’s offensive assault as a whole. Now tera has some benefits to being in this meta especially when it comes to defensive tera. Using defensive tera can save you when facing a sweeper threat and almost the primary reason why certain threats like dragapult are manageable. Which leads me back to why tera can be unhealthy, tera can be a guessing game. For example you could think that the Pokémon in front of you could be tera water but tera’s into a different type and now your at a complete loss. I would definitely want a closer look at tera in the near future.

 

[seth]

My Thoughts:

 

[kallixo]

i love tera so much and i dont want it banned but it just cant stay unless something like tera preview get added

 

[john spicy's alt]

tera definitely needs to be restricted in some way, with the way it is now it can decide entire games based on when and what you tera into, i believe showing the tera types of every pokemon on team preview solves the issue of turning games into a coin flip while having the least impact on the metagame

 

[MudkipBeans]

Alright so Tera to me was fun for about the first few fays but now it’s simply become a chore to handle on sweeping threats. As a personal anecdote, games feel incredibly slowed down for the first few turns, contrary to what people perceive Tera as causing ridiculously strong immediate sweeps. This is not to say it doesn’t, it causes some mons to just GG you on preview with no way to stop it, but it’s mostly just stalling to bait out someone’s Tera. Once you poke out their Tera, you can pretty much automatically win, because you’ve got sweepers who generally need to be handled by Tera. As you get farther in the game, the Tera factor just becomes exponentially stronger to the point where it will always decide the outcome of the game purely based on the random chance you picked the correct type. It’s so warping it’s become very unfun to have to handle just everything 2hkoing resists and hoping you can stall out the tera to get your own going.

Tbh it’s not exactly competitive when you can just make most ghost types a nuke on demand and the opponent must respond with either using Ting-Lu or having to defensively Tera dark. You can also use garg but garg is also just another result of Tera festering. But what if you just didn’t Tera that turn, then your opponent might just use Tera defensively and now they’re pretty much 100% in the pit, and have to play the guessing game for if their moves will work that game or something starts sweeping with the Adaptability Tera boost. Something like Weavile is only really held back by it’s speed, but it + Tera dark simply clicks buttons and removes it’s weakness to stealth rock, frees up its item slot to more options like life orb, and can even Tera ice with boots. The only reason weavile isn’t almost as absurd as chien pao rn is because of Zamazenta who is also absurd. Now we’ve accomplished almost the opposite of what Tera might’ve intended for a variety of options, and are left with a select few broken ones. It’s even caused a few silly bans here and there like Roaring Moon, Regieleki and Melmetal, who are *very* clearly not broken without Tera, but it seems the choice was made that we can have less and less options available to us, so long as Tera is around, because cheesing people with a random type, or just clicking one or two buttons is more competitive and fun than working for progress.

 

[Zobirisking]

In my opinion, the biggest issue about Tera is the surprising factor that can change the whole game in one turn at the right timing (like Tera Ghost or Flying Kingambit against Fighting Type Pokemon). I believe that this problem would be solved if we can see all Tera types on team preview, otherwise it would be unhealthy for the Metagame.

 

[Kidd Birds]

I'm personally still on the fence about Tera, but I'm leaning toward the mechanic being considered unfair. There are days when I feel like it's balanced by the principle that everyone has it and the strategies it introduces allow for a more creative and diverse metagame. However, I can understand the frustration here, and losing to Garg because I guessed the wrong tera type ended up costing me the game creates a feeling that makes me want to go Rodtang on my computer. Both sides are really valid and if I'm being perfectly honest, if it got banned tomorrow I might miss it a little, but it would probably lead to a much less frustrating metagame. As for the issues people have with the sweepers being that bad, to be honest. In a meta like this you should be building teams with some vagueness towards tera and even having your walls tera type be one to contain something that it normally never could (The first thing that comes to mind is Tera Drag Fini being capable of reverse sweeping against things like Venusaur, Serperior, and more). That's not to say that it's a fun way to build teams, it kinda isn't, but I find arguments about how sweepers are just too broken to be unconvincing, to say the least.

And not to sound lame here, but I'd want to see a test version of the meta for like... a week at minimum to get an idea of what this meta would look like without tera. Beasts like Garg and Annihiliape would lose a lot of their luster but considering how easy it is to send this pokemon in and win, I think a retest is it's definitely worth considering. If I have to pick a take right here and now I'd say that while yes, Tera does add a very fun and creative element to NDOU and is competitive, the amount of prediction it requires on the hands of the opponent leaves me wishing that I could at least see the alternative. My favorite aspect of Smogon is the creativity and part of me thinks we'd actually see a more diverse meta without the silly button.

 

[adem]

Oh my god finally this is up, anyways, I now have motivation to give my thoughts here, and anyone is free to change my mind.

Tera as a mechanic was interesting for like the first two minutes of the meta, and I had genuine hope that it could be an interesting twist on how we build and play, albeit I was still slightly cautious on it since type change is a lol. Then I found out it gives you Adapt if you Tera to your STABs, and played a few games with some Fun Pokemon. This mechanic is horrible competitively, and just gets worse and worse as time goes on, the fact that matchups can be switched by an unpredictable (timing wise, for clarification, not type wise. just stating this now because every mon runs the same 1-3 tera types, very rarely are people differentiating, so actually guessing the type IS NOT THE ISSUE. And adding a Tera types on preview restriction is barely changing anything for 90% of players who have played more than 5 games of national dex.) Ok sorry for that little rant, but yeah, the fact that I have to guess wether I have to click cc or Zen Headbutt with my MMedicham on the Kingambit (If its Tera fight), or if i even should have gone to my mega medicham (if its Tera Dark), is extremely unhealthy and does not reward good play, and rather punishes it even further. Positioning and sacks are an extremely vital part of pokemoning, and doing that well and then having it thrown back in your face when the Tapu Lele Teras fairy and you cant revenge kill it with your dragapult anymore, or the Gastrodon that you painstakingly wore down with hazards into range of your Barraskewda CC clicks Tera Ghost and your progress made via the well timed doubles and predictions go down the drain. This is one of the more notable grievances I have with Tera, as it can (and often) takes away the reward of good positioning and a good gameplan. While I do agree that utilising this defensively is an amazing healthy boon for defensive teams that allow them more creative liberty building wise, I do think that this large restriction creativity wise is due largely to Tera, as hard checks to things are either less required / things are easier to develop counterplay to, Ie pex wont need physdef to deal with rain, so it can afford spdef to take stuff like rotoms volt switches better, meaning tera dragon isnt needed anymore. Also, to clarify, i dont think any mons are fully enabled by Tera, and will still be solid / good post tera, yes, this includes Skeledirge, Garganacl, and Dnite, the formers defensive type, while much poorer than pure water/fairy, is still very flexible, especially now that it isnt forced into Tera water Physdef to deal with rain, ie SpD to deal with Valiant, Volc, Char Y, Serp, or keep teraphysdef to still deal with Ace, Zama, Medi etc etc. People acting like this mon is going to drop off the face of the earth post twra ban is insane, this mon is still solid. Not to mention experimentation with more offensive sets like OU has is still very possible. Garg on the other hand turns from a borderline / if not broken mon and super mu fish into a healthy utility option on bulkier teams, with wincon potential with good support, salt cure is a broken move, and its ghost resist + rocks + setup all make it a solid mon even without tera. You really only need to Tera it if u load vs a Zapdos’less rain team and want to 6-0 with Tera water, or u fight something like Tera Dragon Pult which blasts through everything u have, so u Tera fairy, or if their sole garg cplay is some electric like Koko. This mon is unhealthy with tera, but still great without, please do not underestimate it.

OK sorry for dragging on so long, now to talk about STAB tera, because OH MY GOD i hate this shit. Rain is one thing, forced to tera water stuff like skeledirge BECAUSE MY PHYSDEF PEX does not take the water moves is CRAZY, imagine if pex actually checked the waters lol. Shit like dragapult having calcs like this:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 305-359 (82.6 - 97.2%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

HELLO THIS IS A RESISTED HIT ON A KINGAMBIT, WHY IS IT NOW A 5050, I WANT TO ACTUALLY TRAP DRAGAPULT ??!

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 164 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 306-362 (80.1 - 94.7%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

HELLO THIS IS A MEGA TYRANITAR IN SAND, WHY DOES THIS NOT LOSE TO DRAGAPULT??!

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 222-262 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

WHY IS MY TING LU TAKING 50 FROM A NON SUPER EFFECTIVE STAB MOVE ??!

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 258-304 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

WHY IS THE AV TORN KOED BY A NON SUPER EFFECTIVE SPECIAL ATTACK AFTER ROCKS ??? To put it in comparison how fat AV Torn usually is regarding special moves:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian in Psychic Terrain: 229-271 (63.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even Specs MODEST lele does not ko with stab psychic in terrain after rocks, and this is one of the hardest hitting things on the special side in the tier without tera lol.

And thats just Tera Dragon, a bit underrated of a Tera type on it imo but it is insane. Tera Ghost is just as bad, makes Shadow Ball 20x more spammable, and basically denies any soft checks / prevents trading with frailer mons.

Another fun one, Zamazenta!

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 221-261 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lets do 70 to a resist amirite!

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 117-138 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

What if u said u wanted to use Lele as a soft Zama check (since it has a 4x resist….) ? Zamn, cant even switch in once unless ur scarf!

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 168-198 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

Bulkier flying? Nope.

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxapex: 129-152 (42.4 - 50%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Pex is bulky and resists water, surely this can recover on it, knock off the band, threaten scald or tox burns right? nope, popped, forced again to run physdef to even hope to scout this mon lol.

All of these would be decent checks / pivots at the very least without Tera, and make these mons 20x less brainless since they have to actually think about positioning themselves with uturn, have to think of clicking coverage moves instead of just stabs most of the time to force progress, while also making them much more forgiving in the builder. Contrary to what people think, realistically Tera is actually a hinderance creatively, a lot of the creative tera types are all mostly due to Tera forcing it to happen, rather than a genuinely healthy interaction. A small mention since it really isnt that important but tera blast still causes issues with some mons, ie teapot, but is not even close to a main reason on why tera is dumb, just another small one, just to clarify since some people still think this is a major issue lol?

A bit short on this section but a ton of stuff are dumb that are bannable / banned / are looked at because of tera, are fine and healthy / still good without it, ie rain dnite gambit espathra moon melm shed volc ghold ape pult and maybe even zama lol, i cant think of even 3 mons that become actually bad if tera is gone (that wasnt already below average), nothing is that reliant on tera to function. just adding this part in because i have seen arguments that tera makes a lot of mons viable, news flash: it doesnt! it just makes a lot of mons broken.


tldr tera does not reward good positioning and play, makes a lot of healthy / good mons broken, barely offers much healthy aspects, a lot of perceived “healthy” aspects are mostly just offensive tera forcing u to take measures u normally wouldnt need and tricks u into thinking it is healthy creativity when u use tera to remedy it, its not as black and white as people think. tera also gives us a lot of new mons, some of which r very healthy for the meta, and means normally healthy mons which might be banned with tera stay in the tier


tldr tldr: ban tera lol if u want a funner, healthier, and overall better meta!

 

[Salt Kitchen]

I think Terastalization is a fun concept in theory, but it is anything but healthy.

I don’t hate the mechanic, but I think I can relatively speak for almost anyone when I say that it is frustrating to lose to an opponent’s well timed terastalization, with little to no foresight on what type they would terastalize into, or whether they would terastalize at all.

Obviously, some Pokémon are less likely to be users of terastalization, and most Pokémon have at least one to three “optimal” tera-types. This is less of an issue, but that information doesn’t make it any more healthy. There are plenty of niche terastalization types that can pay off big time in specific scenarios. This one may be a little silly, but I ran tera-normal Gholdengo to beat scarfed Gholdengo at the beginning of the tier, so I could bait shadow ball from scarfed Gholdengo’s, and didn’t have to risk a speed tie with non-scarfed variants.

I’ll share an experience I had where terastalization has impacted the game in which any other situation without it, it would’ve been an easy solution:

I was in the middle of a game with me using Kingambit at relatively low HP, and my opponent had Skeledirge out. I didn’t save the replay sadly, but I believe the opponent’s team was heavily weak to a Kingambit sweep. The opponent had not used their terastalization yet, and I was under the impression that they would use it on Skeledirge to resist an incoming Knock Off that would have killed it. I clicked Iron Head instead, predicting that they would tera-fairy, but instead they did not terastalize, and just went for Torch Song and killed Kingambit.

Now here’s the situation if terastalization was not allowed: I click knock off, Skeledirge dies, gg wp.

And while that may have been just a bad/silly prediction on my part, what it essentially boiled down to was a 50/50. In any normal scenario without terastalization, someone would never try to leap through hoops and hurdles like that.

Some Pokémon become **ridiciously** strong with Terastalization, that answers to some Pokémon become extremely limited in regards to responding to them. Water types with tera-water in rain are absolutely horrendous to deal with, and this will only get worse when Basculegion drops. Answers become very hyper specific in regards to dealing with Pokémon like tera-water floatzel in rain when you are trying to not to use your own terastalization, or have already used it.

And that’s only Floatzel. There are countless of Pokémon that become offensive nukes with terastalization, such as Zamazenta, Tapu Lele, and Kingambit, and plenty of other options that have or have not been explored yet.

This might just be me, but I also fail to see any point in regards to pro-terastalization outside of “oo more fun and diversity!” On paper, yes, but not in practice. You are practically required to dedicate a team slot to deal with the potential of queuing up against rain on ladder. If you don’t do this, you might as well already lost to rain in the team builder, before the game even happened. It doesn't apply to just rain also, there are countless overtly powerful threats that you have to account for, otherwise your team may not even be worth using to begin with.

Point is, terastalization is not healthy for the metagame, and would overall be more enjoyable without it and the argument for “more diversity and fun” only works on paper and not in practice.

 

[Aera]

I've wanted Terastalization banned from pretty much the first week gen 9 was introduced and my opinion on the matter has not changed much since. The guessing games Terastalization often forces are simply unhealthy. In the natdex suspect test we only got the option to ban or keep the mechanic, but even the restrictions proposed in the OU suspect test do nothing to address this core issue. It doesn't matter if I know which Pokemon my opponent can terastalyze or what type it will change into, it will still be a guessing game on which turn they will tera.

Regardless I do not see the value in trying to preserve a mechanic so blatantly uncompetitive anyways. The main arguments I've seen is that it makes the generation fun and unique, which is not very competitively minded in the first place, but they are also just bad arguments. Fun is subjective and while the novelty was initially fun to mess around with for me, now it's mostly just annoying to play against. I know I do not speak for everyone but from judging this thread I can say I am not alone in this. The idea the metagame needs more to set itself apart from gen 8 is also ridiculous, as the new Pokemon and expanded movepools will give gen 9 a distinct metagame anyways.
The last argument I've seen is that it allows for more fun and creative teambuilding, which has just blatantly not been true. I would argue the metagame is more restrictive than ever with the absurd power level terastalyzation offers. The methods of dealing with weather and other offensive threats has been severely reduced thanks to their ability to deal 33% more damage, gain an additional STAB, gain extra coverage or circumvent revenge killing attempts. Pokemon like Kingambit and Dragapult can already be difficult enough to handle without them having the ability to then also beat their own checks and counters with the push of a button. Not to mention the large number of Pokemon that already got banned because Terastalyzation pushed them over the edge.

I sincerely hope terastalyzation will get banned in the future, as I am wholly unconvinced of any competitive merit the mechanic has. On the other hand terastalyzation brings a whole slew of unique issues that make the metagame more restrictive and less competitive. If terastalyzation is suspect tested again in the future I will be there to vote ban.

 

[Tanaka's Show]

My current thoughts on tera are vastly different from when the generation first started. I can admit, that tera does add another layer of strategy and excitement to the game to an extent, and I genuinely enjoy making some fun sets with tera. However, ultimately I feel that this mechanic is still unhealthy for the meta. This is mainly due to the insane shit that it further enables especially with the Adaptability boost. Melmetal, the swift swimmers, Gambit, Valiant/Lele, etc become incredibly strong under tera, and defensive teras aren't much better, letting pokemon escape otherwise negative matchups which can completely flip the game. I'm not going to go too indepth with arguments and counterarguments as I merely want to share my thoughts, but as much as I like the mechanic I still find it unhealthy and will most likely vote ban on it.

 

[omarsgarciav]

Terrastralization is a very intersting mechanic, and being gen 9's gimmick most people were at first reluctant to ban it, despite it most likely being broken since the very beginning, likely in the hope that once the most broken pokemon were banned a more stable metagame could be formed around terrastralization. However the opposite was true, as the early bans and metagame development lead to more usage of more pokemon more adept at abusing tera. First Zamazenta, the most straightforward abuser, simply clicking terra fighting choice band cc and doing truly unholy amounts of damage.

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 148-175 (38.6 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
this is an uncommon Zapdos sets as most run at least some offensive investment, meaning you will likely take significantly more damage on average

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Tornadus-Therian: 212-250 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Tornadus can't afford to run much defense investment, the given spread is already being generous, investing only enough speed to outspeed valiant

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 96-113 (25.1 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Landorus is not hard to wear down due to its lack of recovery, and is also one ice fang on the switch from being in range, thus can only act as a temporary stopgap for Zamazenta, further exacerbated by the large number of pokemon Landorus is tasked with checking

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Volcarona: 213-251 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Volcarona has the benefit of dissuading Zamazenta's close combat spam with the threat of flame body burns, but is barely a stopgap if it comes down to it

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 2.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
In a similar vein to Landorus, Toxapex can switch in to close combat, but fears a 2hko from one of Zamazenta's common coverage moves, this time wild charge

Most offensive pokemon that resist fighting are still 2hkoed, or can at best only switch in once
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 212-250 (75.4 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 117-138 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 201-237 (69.5 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 192-227 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this assumes multiscale is broken)
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Medicham-Mega: 212-250 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Additionally, Zamazenta's crunch is strong enough to threaten most ghost types which would otherwise switch in to close combat freely
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 180-212 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 314-370 (99 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Crunch vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Gholdengo: 228-270 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 260-306 (82.5 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The only relevant exception to this is Annihilape

Next, I want to talk about Rain, in particular Floatzel. With Pelipper support, not only does it ouspeed the entire metagame, but it also 2hkoes almost every relevant pokemon, barring the bulkiest of resists
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Rain: 165-195 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth in Rain: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Rain: 352-415 (111 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Water Great Tusk in Rain: 220-259 (59.2 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta in Rain: 330-390 (101.5 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana in Rain: 220-259 (84.9 - 100%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake in Rain: 150-177 (44.2 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit in Rain: 476-560 (128.9 - 151.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
All of these calcs are also ignoring spikes, which Ferrothorn often likes to run on rain teams.

The only relevant pokemon that can switch into this mighty wave crash is Gastrodon, hovever the fellow rain sweeper Barraskewda can 2hko Gastrodon with terra fighting close combat, or come close to doing so without terra
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 283-334 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 189-223 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Finally I want to talk about Annihilape. At base, this pokemon can set up on quite a few relevant threats, like Great Tusk, Zamazenta, slow Landorus and Heatran, Kingambit, Rotom, Scizor, Lopunny and Dragonite. However, terrastralizing can allow it to set up on and beat many of it would be answers, like Tornadus, Dragapult and Gholdengo:
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Tera Water Annihilape: 102-120 (24 - 28.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Tera Water Annihilape: 211-250 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Tera Water Annihilape: 315-371 (74.2 - 87.5%) -- not a KO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Tera Water Annihilape: 129-153 (30.4 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Tera Water Annihilape: 105-124 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 12 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Tera Water Annihilape: 175-207 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If already at +1 defense, it doesn't fear the swift swin sweepers, and can recover significant amounts of health thanks to drain punch and leftovers:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Barraskewda Liquidation vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Water Annihilape in Rain: 176-208 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Tera Water Annihilape Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barraskewda: 207-244 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Water Annihilape in Rain: 224-264 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Tera Water Annihilape Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Water Floatzel: 220-261 (70.7 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Water Annihilape: 147-174 (34.6 - 41%) -- 61.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Tera Water Annihilape Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swampert-Mega: 127-150 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

All of these are very common attacks that would, without terra, at least significantly damage Annihilape, allowing for another pokemon to revenge kill it, however terrastralizing lets it pull of these otherwise impossible feats.

These three points are only addressing the pokemon that terra makes the most broken, omitting things like terra fairy/flying Kingambit flipping its type matchup almost completely, notably forcing a 50/50 against Great Tusk, which would otherwise comfortably check it, Volcarona doing a similar thing by turning into a grass type, Kartana/Iron Valiant/Tapu Lele/Dragapult/Urshifu/Weavile which terrastralize into their respective stabs and kill everything in a similar manner to Zamazenta and the rain sweepers, though in my opinion this is to a lesser extent, and Dragonite turning into a normal type and killing everything with +1 extreme speed.

Due to all the reasons above I strongly support a terrastralization retest as soon as possible, and will vote ban once it does happen, though I do understand that it may take a while for this to occur.

 

[MiraakObama]

I LOVE how Tera is making generally mediocre pokemon into genuine threats, It is a breath of fresh air, people often speak about how “You have to guess 1/18 types'' But in practice you can expect certain types from certain pokemon, in the beginning of this Metagame in NATDEX Regieleki with Ice Tera was fairly common, every time I saw one I could expect Ice or Electric from it. If the opponent holds Tera for the entire game, I know that his Gambit will Tera Dark or Flying.

It comes down to experience, planning and one’s ability to improvise and come up with creative solutions to the unexpected. And that is what I love the most about the mechanic, what I personally despise the most is a stale Metagames, the mechanic adds an extra layer of strategy and commitment for the player.

Defensive and offensive Tera are different things, Tera Blast allows for surprise pick offs and defensive Teratyping allows for a surprise walling of certain threats, if your team is getting torn apart by a Rillabom then Tera Flying will give you resistance from most of his sets. But what I personally love the most about it is when you pull a defensive and offensive Terastilization at the same time, If you run Terablast then you’re likely going to Tera THAT pokemon every time, else they’re sacked or run with one less move (Except normal special attackers that can still make usage of the neutral Tera Blast). Sometimes defensive Teras become your win condition, at times I can see that using Ground on my Fini will allow it to calm mind + leftovers recovery on a Volt Switch to eventually turn around the game, rendering my favored Terablast mon kind of helpless in exchange.

The mechanic is said to be “unhealthy” But I thoroughly disagree, be creative, use it to cover holes and break walls where you couldn’t, one can expect certain types from certain mons, a Heatran switched into your garchomp? It will be Tera Grass or Flying. Ferrothorn stayed against your fire mon? It will be water. Urshifu exist? Water 90% of the time. Adapt, predict, learn and improvise, build your team around a tera or make it impenetrable with a surprise one. By all means Good Luck and Have Fun.

 

[MudkipBeans]

I LOVE how Tera is making generally mediocre pokemon into genuine threats, It is a breath of fresh air, people often speak about how “You have to guess 1/18 types'' But in practice you can expect certain types from certain pokemon, in the beginning of this Metagame in NATDEX Regieleki with Ice Tera was fairly common, every time I saw one I could expect Ice or Electric from it. If the opponent holds Tera for the entire game, I know that his Gambit will Tera Dark or Flying.

It comes down to experience, planning and one’s ability to improvise and come up with creative solutions to the unexpected. And that is what I love the most about the mechanic, what I personally despise the most is a stale Metagames, the mechanic adds an extra layer of strategy and commitment for the player.

Defensive and offensive Tera are different things, Tera Blast allows for surprise pick offs and defensive Teratyping allows for a surprise walling of certain threats, if your team is getting torn apart by a Rillabom then Tera Flying will give you resistance from most of his sets. But what I personally love the most about it is when you pull a defensive and offensive Terastilization at the same time, If you run Terablast then you’re likely going to Tera THAT pokemon every time, else they’re sacked or run with one less move (Except normal special attackers that can still make usage of the neutral Tera Blast). Sometimes defensive Teras become your win condition, at times I can see that using Ground on my Fini will allow it to calm mind + leftovers recovery on a Volt Switch to eventually turn around the game, rendering my favored Terablast mon kind of helpless in exchange.

The mechanic is said to be “unhealthy” But I thoroughly disagree, be creative, use it to cover holes and break walls where you couldn’t, one can expect certain types from certain mons, a Heatran switched into your garchomp? It will be Tera Grass or Flying. Ferrothorn stayed against your fire mon? It will be water. Urshifu exist? Water 90% of the time. Adapt, predict, learn and improvise, build your team around a tera or make it impenetrable with a surprise one. By all means Good Luck and Have Fun.

I’m sorry but this argument genuinely has said nothing of substance in about 200 words and bolding random sentences doesn’t really help.

This is one of the most degrading arguments that have been around for the metagame, since it makes very broad assumptions about how people can and will use their Tera in the future. Tera Blast has already shown to be a pretty specific and limiting option already, so most aren’t going to bother with it most of the time, unless on Zoroark-H who can use it as STAB. By doing so you gain a less diverse metagame since now it’s not worth to “get creative” because getting creative will get you fucked even harder by things like Dragapult, and if not pult, it will be whatever top threat is in the metagame that abuses Tera as a win condition. The same exact thing occurs in UU (ban Victini) and it will continue to fester until you remove it completely.
This also fails to recognize that defensive Tera win conditions can also be very unhealthy, because of how teambuilding is even able to respond to it. If you have win conditions that only need one turn to change their type and become unkillable, it’s not feasible to understand how to remove them. If a Garg is staring my Gholdengo down, do I use a steel move on it because it is super effective? No, I have to switch out hoping the opponent will do what I want and Tera. But they could also just not use their Tera and do whatever they want, because they know that I can’t possibly be prepared for defensive win cons with about 5 different types that are effective with them, and stall me out. You essentially play this game where you can’t commit to anything because if you do you just lose on the spot, being unable to withstand their Tera or unable to break anything. Otherwise, I will abuse the strongest breakers who simply click one button and 2HKO resists, and easily get them in using all the switch moves present. This only serves to further restrict what is needed on teams and further restrict the offensive threats you can use, and that’s not very interesting or competitive. Even then, you would be willing to sacrifice a ton of options because Tera would break them too much, necessitating a ban, so pretty much everyone loses.

Either way, this argument is truly why I haven’t bothered coming back to NDOU and do not plan to until Tera can be removed. There is nothing to adapt to, it’s just Tera luck and the inability to diversify options. (Also ban shed tail.)

 

[poop3]

The only unbalanced part of the mechanic imo is that Pokemon retain their original STABs after using it. That makes 'defensive' tera strictly better than switching or U-Turn because it gets all the benefit of a switch (attacking into a resist) while getting a full STAB damage of a normal attack.

Take Volcarona. If Volc tera's into Ground to dodge a Rock-type move, it also has triple STAB now. Tera Blast is optional because Hidden Power Ground still exists in natdex, so that means terastal itself is also optional. Volcarona only needs to use it defensively when there's a KO threat while not losing any moveslots or momentum.

But if tera were nerfed to be like Protean, dodging the Rock move does not progress the sweep. Volcarona has to QD again to +2 to achieve the same damage output it would achieve with Fire/Bug at +1 pre-tera, while it gains STAB on a move it might not even be carrying.

Many fat setup sweepers like Volcarona, Annihilape, Kingambit and Skeledirge become generically hard to deal with under tera because they lose no offensive presence while getting bulkier.

Other than this, I think the mechanic is fine.

Tera Poison to wall Iron Valiant is good teambuilding. Don't whine about being unable to predict it, look at a type chart, then use another Pokemon. Prediction is part of the game and the more skilled player is going to win.

 

[Crowned Mlvluu]

Keep Tera, ban Dragapult, Annihilape, and Zamazenta, nerf rain (or maybe not, seeing as Sun is rising due to Walking Wake).
Dragapult was already banned in the previous generation, Annihilape is broken even without Tera, Zamazenta is a fast tank.
Most of the damage calculations here have recurring threats which have their own balance problems outside Tera, with a notable exception maybe being rain.
As for Specs Lele, just outspeed. It has base 95 and 70/75 physical bulk.

 

[about15gals]

I'm generally not a big fan of tera, although I'm probably slightly biased since I mainly prefer to play slower bulkier teams, which certain teras can absolutely assblast into next week. My current opinions have already been reiterated a thousand times by people who worded it better than I did, but just to put in my two cents, I feel like it just adds too much unnecessary reads into a match, predicting what a mon with a lot of set variety and coverage options is already somewhat a lot, but throwing in tera just makes it so much worse, giving any mon a button it can press to either give it adaptability, a 50% boost to a random coverage move or most often completely inverting its weaknesses and resistances is just annoying, almost to the point where it makes me not want to play tera enabled formats, while I understand being able to completely turn around in a game with a perfect use of tera is appealing to people, I'm just not a fan.

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

I still stand pretty firmly on the pro-ban side, and while I think my post on the subject here gets the point across, I’ve been wanting to address other anti-ban arguments that have come up recently. The most common one that comes to mind is that you can “adapt” to Tera, and having built and looked at alot of teams, I don’t really think that’s true. Many teams are just not able to stand up to the various combinations of offensive cores, and Tera exacerbates this issue by needing multiple sturdy resists to answer a single Pokemon. There is no way to adapt to this: you simply hope to god that you don’t find the one threat you were not in any capacity able to prepare for. R8 has brought this up in PS! discussions, and this is further proven by adem’s listed calcs above, but there is no way to properly answer the combination of Zamazenta, Dragapult, Tapu Lele, rain, and countless others when they all 2hko their checks OR have the ability to just negate what hits them super effectively. This is also unhelpful for threats like Annihilape or the now banned Espathra; hitting them with a resisted move is another 50 BP on Rage Fist or another 40 BP on Stored Power. There’s no way you‘re adapting to that in the builder; you just have to be overly cautious as you play the game, which is rewarded by you getting fucked over anyway. This doesn’t even bring up how Tera warps games into 50/50s every turn simply by being a very riskless option for a player. Sure it’s possible to predict when a mon could Tera, but they could just as easily not and screw over your plays, while not being any worse for wear and keeping their Tera. Another anti-ban argument I see is the creativity of Tera, and this is also something I disagree with. Not only does Tera restrict options for answering threats, many Pokemon just use the same Tera types for their neutral defensive matchups or the STAB boost. There are only like four examples I can think of where a mon uses a Tera that isn’t Water, Fairy, or one of their STAB options. Also, I really don’t see any bad Pokemon being made niche or solid by Tera, let alone the mechanic making them a tier staple. Tera has simply good mons better or great mons outright broken. Overall, I hope this post illustrates how I feel about Tera and how it’s actually holding the tier back from being interesting, instead of introducing new options. I think it turns games into such prediction heavy fests, where the momwntum gain from a Tera on the right turn just seals the game from there. To make a long ramble very succinct, ban Tera at some point for the betterment of the tier.

 

[MachJacob]

I like Tera. I enjoy the teambuilding options it provides, and the flexibility it provides to some defensive Pokemon.

I'm not blind, however, and I am aware of the many problems caused by Terastillazing. There are many Pokemon that have been banned basically due to Tera, and I'm sure many more to come across all tiers of NatDex. Sometimes an unexpected Tera type can completely and immediately flip a game into a sweep. Some Pokemon can become almost unwallable with a Tera-boosted STAB. However, this isn't unique to Tera. Z-Moves can create similar effects (albeit to a lesser degree), and we're completely fine with them.

Overall, I believe Tera is a core part of Gen 9. Just as Z-Moves were to Gen 7. Dynamax was obviously egregious on basically any Pokemon and had to go, but Tera isn't there. If a few more Pokemon need to be banned to keep Tera, I think that's a price we should be willing to pay.

I would support a restriction of Tera in some form, but in a binary vote like last time I would vote no ban.